IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF AMADOR ---oOo--- The People of the State of California) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) No. 98-0767 ) ROBERT ROLAND WOMACK, DAVID STERLING ) MASON III and MARK SHERRILL, ) Defendants. ) _____________________________________) PROCEEDINGS HELD BEFORE THE GRAND JURY NOVEMBER 30, 1998 VOLUME IX APPEARANCES: For the People: DAVID J. IREY Deputy District Attorney Reported by: JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG, CSR No. 4643 ---oOo--- 2229 1 WITNESS INDEX Page 2 JOHN J. MILLER Examination by Mr. Irey 2234 3 WILLIAM A. WOLIN 4 Examination by Mr. Irey 2252 5 JIM WALSHAW Examination by Mr. Irey 2292 6 RUSS MOORE 7 Examination by Mr. Irey 2305 2383 8 RON HALL 9 Examination by Mr. Irey 2326 10 ---oOo--- 11 12 13 14 JURY INSTRUCTIONS READ 2396 15 ---oOo--- 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2230 1 E X H I B I T S 2 Exhibit No. Description Ref. 3 26 City Permit 2238 4 63 Copies of Bank Ledger 2317 5 121 Certification Non-License Status 2236 6 122 Certification re Workers' Comp. 2239 7 123 Pink Slips 2312 8 124 Oregon Title for Navigator 2306 9 126 DMV Printout 2314 10 127 Wolin Declaration 2299 11 128 DMV Printout - Oregon 2315 12 129 DMV Documents 2306 13 130 DMV Documents 2386 14 131 DMV Documents 2387 15 133 DMV Documents 2388 16 Exhibits 1 - 10 offered in evidence - Page 2330 17 Exhibits 11 - 20 offered in evidence - Page 2335 Exhibits 21 - 30 offered in evidence - Page 2339 18 Exhibits 31 - 50 offered in evidence - Page 2346 Exhibits 51 - 60 offered in evidence - Page 2350 19 Exhibits 61 - 70 offered in evidence - Page 2353 Exhibits 71 - 80 offered in evidence - Page 2358 20 Exhibits 81 - 84 offered in evidence - Page 2361 Exhibits 106-110 offered in evidence - Page 2361 21 Exhibits 111-129 offered in evidence - Page 2365 Exhibits 130-133 offered in evidence - Page 2395 22 23 ---oOo--- 24 25 2231 1 JACKSON, CALIF., MONDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 1998, 9:00 A.M. 2 BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF AMADOR COUNTY 3 ---oOo--- 4 THE FOREPERSON: Go on record and then take 5 roll. 6 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 7 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Here. 8 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) Here. 9 (Redacted.) 10 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Here. 11 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 12 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Here. 13 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 14 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Here. 15 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 16 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Here. 17 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 18 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXXXX: Here. 19 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 20 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Here. 21 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 22 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Here. 23 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 24 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Here. 25 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 2232 1 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Here. 2 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 3 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Here. 4 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 5 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Here. 6 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 7 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Here. 8 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 9 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Here. 10 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 11 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Here. 12 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 13 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Here. 14 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 15 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Here. 16 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 17 THE FOREPERSON: Here. 18 MR. IREY: The timetable today will be something 19 along these lines. 20 Contractors Licensing Board investigator 21 right now, Billy Wolin, Jim Walshaw from the District 22 Attorney's Office, Workers' Comp. investigator, Russ 23 Moore, and then Ron Hall. I think we will be done with 24 testimony by 11:00 or 11:15. 25 And I have been telling you it would take 2233 1 two hours to read the jury instructions, because I really 2 only think it will take an hour and ten minutes. So we 3 might be able to read the jury instructions this morning 4 if everything works right, including the copy machine. 5 You will receive what is called an Amended 6 Proposed Indictment, which adds a couple counts and a 7 body or so. It's only slightly different than the one 8 you have had for the full two weeks. And then there are 9 a couple new jury instructions that we will add to your 10 packet. So essentially, it will be the same jury packet 11 and we will add eight, ten, twelve pages to the back of 12 it. So that is our timetable. 13 Jeff Miller. 14 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Miller, first could you 15 remain standing, please, and raise your right hand. 16 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 17 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 18 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 19 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 20 THE WITNESS: I do. 21 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 22 23 (TIME NOTED: 9:06 A.M.) 24 ---oOo--- 25 2234 1 JOHN J. MILLER 2 Called as a witness herein by the People, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 4 and testified as follows: 5 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. IREY: 8 Q Could you state your full legal name for 9 the record and spell your last name. 10 A John Jefferson Miller, M-I-L-L-E-R. 11 Q And for the Grand Jurors, Mr. Miller has 12 been added as a witness since we were last here. That's 13 why he doesn't appear on your proposed witness list. 14 Have a seat, Mr. Miller. 15 Mr. Miller, did you bring in some 16 documents today? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q May I have one copy? I will have it 19 marked. 20 Mr. Miller, who is your current employer? 21 A State of California Contractors State 22 License Board. 23 Q And in what capacity are you so employed? 24 A Senior investigator with Underground 25 Economy Enforcement Unit. 2235 1 Q What's is Underground Economy Enforcement 2 Unit? 3 A We are a special group of nine 4 investigators that target non-licensees, licensees 5 without Workmen's Comp., and underground economy, 6 basically. 7 Q Okay. And how long have you been employed 8 by the Contractors State Licensing Board? 9 A Eleven years. 10 Q And how much of that has been in this 11 enforcement position? 12 A For the last three years in this unit. 13 Q Okay. Were you contacted by Jim Walshaw 14 of the Amador County District Attorney's Office at any 15 point in the last month? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And could you go ahead and give a 18 narrative. These Grand Jurors seem to like the 19 narratives. 20 Basically, you were contacted. What steps 21 you have taken and if you located any information related 22 to people they might be concerned about today. 23 A Okay. I was contacted by Jim in regards 24 to the issue of a contractor's license for a particular 25 project, a gas station demolition tank removal type of 2236 1 thing. I was given specific information in regards to 2 applications for permit. And I was asked to search -- 3 well, I was called in to talk about it and certain things 4 took place, discussions. And eventually, I was asked to 5 determine whether a Robert Roland Womack was a licensed 6 contractor in the State of California. Apparently, it 7 appears he was in charge of the work that was taking 8 place at this gas station. 9 So what I did is, we ran his full name 10 with ID'ing information to see if he was, indeed, a 11 licensed contractor in this State. According to our 12 records, with his full name, his current residence 13 address that we have, last known address, date of birth, 14 Social Security Number and driver's license number, we 15 found no record of a license being issued to a Robert 16 Roland Womack in any capacity. 17 We didn't search through business names 18 that I was given, because the name search is the most 19 appropriate. If he is on any license, whether it's a 20 sole owner, partnership or an entity on a corporation 21 license, his name would appear in our records. 22 And the document that I just -- 23 Q Been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 121. 24 A Is that certificate of non-license 25 statuses. We show no record of him having a contractor's 2237 1 license in this state. 2 Q And why would you need a contractor's 3 license in the State of California? 4 A To perform remediation work that 5 apparently took place at gas station, a license is 6 required in the state. 7 Also, because it deals with, I believe, a 8 gasoline storage tank and the earth surrounding it, 9 that's considered hazardous materials. It has to be 10 disposed of properly. They have to have the proper 11 classification, which there are four that we that issue 12 can do this work. And they also have to be certified 13 with hazardous certification certificate. 14 Q So you have to have a contractor's 15 license, plus an additional certificate? 16 A Hazardous certification. 17 Q Okay. And what -- did you, for instance, 18 look at the City files? Or did you look at any permits 19 in determining -- let's see. I will withdraw that. 20 Did you go to the City with Jim Walshaw 21 and look at their file? 22 A Yes. I was given two copies of, I 23 believe, a City and a County permit. 24 Q Okay. 25 A And I think I have those with me. 2238 1 Q Skim through here. It's been a week. 2 So you were given a copy of a City permit, 3 correct? And then the County underground storage tank 4 permit? 5 And the City building permit marked Grand 6 Jury Exhibit 26. Is this the building permit and 7 building permit application from the City of Jackson? 8 A Yes, it is. 9 Q Okay. And so you looked at this and it 10 listed Roland Womack as the applicant. 11 A Correct. 12 Q But it didn't list Bob Womack as the 13 contractor anywhere? 14 A No. It lists Robert or Roland Womack as 15 the applicant. 16 Now, when you pull a building permit, you 17 can be -- anybody can pull a permit. You can be an owner 18 builder or you can be a contractor that pulls that 19 permit. 20 What didn't appear on either one of these 21 permits is, nobody completed page 2, which gives you 22 three ways of doing a project. You can be an owner 23 builder. You can own the property. You can hire 24 employees to perform the work with wages as their sole 25 compensation to get the work done. 2239 1 Q If you are the owner builder? 2 A If you are the owner of the property. 3 Q Okay. 4 A The permit is just called owner builder. 5 Or you can be an owner builder and check 6 the box here that says you are going to hire licensed 7 contractors to perform the work. Or you could be a 8 contractor and pull the permit. Then you must comply 9 with the Workers' Compensation information. 10 If you are owner of the property, hiring 11 your employees, paying them wages as their sole 12 compensation, those employees must be covered by 13 Workmen's Compensation. It doesn't matter if they are 14 family members or somebody coming from anywhere. You 15 have to have Workmen's Comp. 16 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 17 122. This is the first time have you seen this 18 document. If you could take a moment to quickly review 19 it. 20 And you go by Jeff? Is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. 23 Q Okay. Is Workers' Compensation Insurance 24 Rating Bureau of California one of the main Workers' 25 Compensation information holding systems? 2240 1 A For my purposes, when I am out in the 2 field, a little bit of what I do, I drive around and look 3 at work. I determine whether that person, the person in 4 charge of that job, is licensed or not licensed. If I 5 pull up on a job and I see a bunch of guys on the site, I 6 find out who is responsible. If there is a licensed 7 contractor on the job, I will ask him if he has Workmen's 8 Comp. Sometimes they have the Comp. and they don't 9 report it to us like they are supposed to so we can up 10 date the records. Sometimes they will say yes. 11 Sometimes they will say no. 12 Well, the only way I can be sure is, if 13 it's not on our records and he can't produce a copy right 14 there on the spot, then I will call this rating bureau. 15 If this guy has got Comp. within, I would say, a couple 16 of weeks prior to my stop, these people will know. If 17 these people say no, then he doesn't have it. He gets a 18 ticket from me right there. 19 Q That document is self-authenticating. But 20 for the Grand Jurors, it doesn't specifically mention 21 Robert Womack, correct? 22 A It says Roland Womack. 23 Q And KRL Partnership? 24 A Correct. 25 Q So this document as a stand alone, without 2241 1 any other evidence, does not show Robert Womack does not 2 have Workers' Comp. insurance. It shows Roland has it 3 for the dental building and KRL does not have it. 4 Correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q Because we don't want to mislead the Grand 7 Jurors. 8 Robert Womack, it's your understanding, 9 filled out the City permit using somebody else's Workers' 10 Compensation number. Is that correct? 11 A It appears that he wrote down a licensed 12 contractor in this area as the person -- if I was in the 13 City Building Department and the applicant filled this 14 out, I would assume that a licensed contractor was going 15 to be on the job, based on the information on this. 16 Q Because there is -- 17 A Again, he never finished page 2. So page 18 2 of this document is real key. 19 Q Okay. 20 A But based on the information that sits 21 right here now, this guy pulled a permit and there's 22 going to be a licensed contractor on the project. 23 Q Is it your experience that, if you are a 24 licensed contractor and you have Workers' Comp. 25 insurance, that you go ahead and put a different 2242 1 contractor down and a different Workers' Comp. number 2 down? Let's see if I can ask that more clearly. 3 If you are a contractor and you have your 4 own Workers' Comp. insurance and you have your own 5 contractor's license, does it make any sense that you 6 would ever put down someone else's contractor license and 7 their insurance? 8 A No. That is -- no. You would use your 9 own. 10 Q Okay. 11 A And there is no policy on this document. 12 Just says State Fund. There should be a policy number on 13 there. If nobody has got anything to hide, the policy 14 number should be on there for anyone to check. 15 Q Okay. What was your background before you 16 came to the State? 17 A I worked in construction. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Wannabe contractor. Never made it. 20 Q So you applied for the job and you went 21 through courses or something along those lines? 22 A No. I was hired based on my experience in 23 construction. When I first started, I investigated 24 consumer complaints, a complaint that you might file 25 against a contractor who did a roof that leaked. We try 2243 1 to call them, get them out there to fix it, this kind of 2 thing, to resolve the case. It was like a mediator 3 investigator. 4 And then, as the non-license activity got 5 more prevalent and licensed contractors were losing work 6 to non-licensees via underground economy cash pay, this 7 kind of thing, they formed this little group. For me, 8 it's a little more down and dirty, meat and potatoes. 9 You get them right there on the spot kind of thing. 10 Q Along these lines, that particular 11 activity, is there a statutory number, work over X 12 dollars, that requires Workers' Comp. insurance and 13 contractor's license? 14 A Pursuant to Business and Professions Code 15 7048, $300 or more labor and material requires a 16 contractor's license if you are doing work that is 17 required of a license. 18 Q So just the $720 dump fee would surpass 19 that number? 20 A It doesn't matter how the labor, how the 21 materials gets there. I mean, I can tell you I can paint 22 your house for $250 labor, but if you pay $500 for paint, 23 total 750. 24 Q Okay. And then, is it against the rules 25 to use somebody else's contractor's license? 2244 1 A That would be Business and Professions 2 Code 7027.3. 3 Q Okay. And is that a more egregious 4 violation? Is that a felony? 5 A That could be charged as a felony. 6 Q Or a misdemeanor? 7 A Or a misdemeanor. 8 Q And the violation there is actually being 9 a person who uses someone else's contractor's license 10 number? 11 A Correct. You cannot use somebody else's 12 contractor's license number. Like I can't use any one of 13 your driver's licenses because I don't have one to go 14 down to the store and be legal to drive for that little 15 five-minute trip. That doesn't work. 16 Q What about your brother's? Can you use 17 your brother's? 18 A Can't use anybody's. It's issued to you, 19 issued to the partnership, issued to the corporation. 20 Only those people listed as entities on the license may 21 use that license. Nobody else can. 22 Q And if you had a contractor's license and 23 you had Workers' Comp. insurance, would you still need 24 additional certificate for working on underground storage 25 tanks? 2245 1 A You have to comply with -- like I said in 2 the beginning, you would have to also qualify for 3 hazardous materials certification. Then you would have 4 to -- that just takes care of the State. That's what you 5 have to have with us. 6 You also must comply with all the rules 7 and regulations of any City, County, State, Federal, 8 whatever. Any violation of those laws, we can also cite 9 under Business and Professions Code 7110. 10 Q Which says a contractor must comply with 11 all regulatory schemes? 12 A Whatever it is. 13 MR. IREY: At this time, Mr. Miller, I know you 14 have been through the Grand Jury before, any Member of 15 the Grand Jury can write down a question. I will read it 16 into the record. You can answer that. And it would be 17 very helpful. 18 THE WITNESS: Sure. 19 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 20 Miller at this time. 21 Q Does the fact that the applicant (sic) 22 wasn't completed mean that -- this is if you know. It 23 kind of calls for a legal conclusion, but I can go ahead 24 and ask it. 25 Does the fact the application wasn't 2246 1 completed mean the applicant isn't responsible for 2 complying with rules and regulations? 3 A I will put it this way. If this case was 4 assigned to me personally, okay, and I was working this 5 case on this particular person, he filled out the 6 application as the applicant for the license. The back 7 sheet where he doesn't say whether he is the owner of the 8 property, whether he is a contractor, whether there is 9 compliance with Comp. -- the mere fact for me, 10 personally, he filled out as an applicant for the permit, 11 this tells me -- this would tell me in my jurisdiction 12 that he is pulling the permit for this job. 13 What I would do next after the fact is, 14 chase the money. The bottom line is, if he is -- and I 15 would chase records. If he is the owner of the property 16 and he is complying with everything, no harm, no foul. 17 Okay. We just investigate it, make a few calls, do a 18 little driving, get some docs, figure it out. Case 19 closed if everything is in order. 20 Based on what I have seen and what I 21 understand and the reason for me being here, from what I 22 understand, he pulled the permit to do the work on this 23 building, which it's believed that he is the owner of the 24 this project. Apparently, he is not. He doesn't own 25 this property. So and then he hired people other than 2247 1 this contractor he listed on the license to -- for what I 2 think -- 3 Q Other than Wolin and Sons? 4 A Right. He put those on there, I think, 5 just so it would go through so nobody would question 6 anything. 7 Then apparently, he had work done night 8 and weekends, whatever, kind of got rid of the stuff. 9 Q So it's the totality of the circumstances? 10 A Correct. I would chase the money. 11 He paid -- from what I understand, he paid 12 the workers there. So, as far as I am concerned, he 13 acted -- if he is not the owner of the property, can't 14 prove it, he has pulled the permit, he has hired the help 15 and paid the help, to me, he is acting in the capacity of 16 a contractor. That's what a contractor does. 17 Q He wrote the checks out? 18 A Exactly. 19 Q He called the people and said, Come to 20 work tomorrow. 21 A He is in direct control of this project. 22 Him, as far as I know, and him only, as far as the work 23 being done. And the fact that he did put down a licensed 24 contractor's name to kind of slip through, I would charge 25 the 7027.3. 2248 1 Q And that -- 2 A Fraudulent use of a license number. Uses 3 a guy's business name, his license number. Didn't use a 4 policy number; just said State Fund. But he has made it 5 believed that, you know, everything is under control. 6 Q Is this possibly a policy number here? 7 A Could be, yeah. 8 Q Okay. That's in the middle of the page on 9 Grand Jury Exhibit 26? 10 A Yeah, this is probably State Fund policy 11 number. It's for the licensee. 12 Q Again, it's for the totality of the 13 circumstances? 14 A Right. 15 Q Just because he omitted or chose not to 16 fill out part of an application, if he takes twenty 17 affirmative steps acting as a contractor and doesn't take 18 the 21st, that doesn't -- 19 A It's all or none. Three strikes and you 20 are out. You are not out until you get the third one. 21 MR. IREY: Any other questions from any of other 22 Grand Jurors? 23 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 24 Q BY MR. IREY: Does a licensed contractor 25 on the job and the contractor who is responsible for the 2249 1 work being performed have to be on site at all times? Or 2 can he spend, say, an hour and leave for the rest of the 3 day? 4 A Hmmm... That's a tough one. 5 Contractor -- we would all like them to be there, but we 6 know that they are not. He should be supervising the job 7 or he should have someone in charge that works for him 8 that can take over those responsibilities and have -- but 9 it's not a requirement that he must be there. 10 Q If you are a contractor and you call in a 11 favor, for instance, your son, and make him work all 12 weekend, does that son have to be covered by a Workers' 13 Comp. policy? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Even if he is not paid? 16 A Yes. He is on the project working. 17 Q So if a son is down in a hole cutting 18 pipes and sweeping sidewalks and pulling the tank out of 19 the ground, then they would need to be covered also? 20 A It doesn't mean -- he can be raking up 21 debris and throwing it in the trash. The scope of the 22 work is meaningless. The mere fact that he is on the 23 site. 24 Q It's meaningless for the violations; but 25 it is important for the price you need to pay for 2250 1 Workers' Comp.? 2 A Correct. There is different degrees. 3 Q My guess is, hazardous materials is more 4 expensive than dental office? 5 A I am sure, yeah. 6 Q Okay. And the same, what about a barter 7 thing? I don't want to get into the legalities of 8 bartering work. 9 Let's say I work for you for a weekend and 10 I take a couple hoists and hydraulic lift. Would that 11 person have to be covered, person not compensated with 12 money, but compensated with equipment? 13 A It would, the value of the compensation. 14 Example. A painter that I caught in Tahoe 15 was working off a debt. He was painting a hotel. He 16 told me he was working for free. Just painting it. I 17 thought, okay. You are going to paint this giant hotel 18 for free. Well, it came out that he owed a $2,000 debt 19 to the hotel for times he stayed there when he had 20 problems with his wife. That was a year ago. I said, 21 Okay. So you are working off a $2,000 debt. That's 22 compensation. 23 Q Workers' Comp. and a contractor's license? 24 A Would be required on that project, as 25 well. If the hoist and the items that were bartering, if 2251 1 the value of that material is $300 or more, that's 2 compensation for the work. 3 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions by any 4 Member of the Grand Jury? 5 Mr. Miller, thanks for coming down on 6 short notice and getting us that certified record. At 7 this time, I have no further questions, nor do Members of 8 the Grand Jury, so the Grand Jury Foreman will read you 9 an admonition. Thank you. 10 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 11 to any person, except as directed by the Court, what 12 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 13 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 14 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 15 appearance before the Grand Jury. 16 This admonition continues unless and until 17 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 18 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 19 punishable as contempt of court. 20 This does not prevent you from discussing 21 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 22 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 23 Grand Jury. 24 And if I can get you to date and sign this 25 same exact admonition I just read to you. 2252 1 Thank you up very much. 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 3 MR. IREY: Mr. Wolin is going to answer in 4 narratives today because his wife is sick at home and he 5 has to just tell us what happened. 6 THE FOREPERSON: If you remain standing, please, 7 and raise your right hand. 8 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 9 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 10 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 11 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 14 (TIME NOTED: 9:28 A.M.) 15 ---oOo--- 16 WILLIAM A. WOLIN 17 Called as a witness herein by the People, 18 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 19 and testified as follows: 20 21 EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. IREY: 23 Q Mr. Wolin, if you could speak up today and 24 tell us the -- if you have remembered any additional 25 information. But I am going to also ask you specific 2253 1 questions, but I would hope that you can give us a 2 narrative answer. 3 First question is, you were nervous last 4 time, correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q But you believe that you answered 7 truthfully, but concisely, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And I called your place of business a week 10 or so ago and said the possibility of you testifying and 11 clearing up some issues might be helpful to Members of 12 the Grand Jury. Correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And then you called me back and you said, 15 I was nervous, but yes, I would be happy to come in on 16 Monday. Correct? 17 A Correct. 18 Q Okay. So tell us the whole story. Give 19 us the narrative. Tell us who said what when, how many 20 times you told people to do stuff or not to do stuff, if 21 you got any extra money under the table after the fact, 22 that kind of stuff. 23 A Well, I was basically asked to operate the 24 equipment. If I couldn't operate it, that they would 25 find somebody else to do it. And I said that I had some 2254 1 family thing to get together, and I would ask my wife if 2 I could do so. Which I did. And so she said I could. 3 Which she wasn't real happy about. 4 That Saturday morning, we met, everybody 5 there met at Mel's and we had breakfast and just talked 6 about removing the building. And I don't think that 7 there was any word about removing the tank at that time. 8 Q You don't remember any discussion about it? 9 A I don't remember at that time, no. 10 I think, at lunchtime, Bob had mentioned 11 about how to remove a tank. But he never did explicitly 12 tell me he wanted to remove it until that evening. 13 Q We will stay at breakfast time. Okay. At 14 breakfast time, did he walk around the diner and ask 15 people if they wanted the underground storage tank? 16 A No. 17 Q Or did you see him do that? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you see him get up and walk around 20 table to table to table? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. Go ahead. 23 A Then that morning after breakfast, we went 24 out there. I put up, I think, a road construction sign 25 and flags. Then we proceeded tearing down the station. 2255 1 And I loaded all the materials from the station into the 2 Sherrill dump trucks. And that basically went on until 3 probably about afternoon, lunchtime. 4 Q Tell us about lunch. Who went to lunch? 5 What was discussed? 6 A We all went to lunch. And I think -- the 7 only thing I can remember being discussed at lunch was, 8 Bob had mentioned about how to remove an underground 9 tank, because there was one there. 10 Q What do you remember about that 11 conversation? What was he discussing? Techniques and -- 12 A Yeah. Just, you know, how it could be 13 done. That's when my father had mentioned that he had -- 14 MR. IREY: Just a moment, please. You are being 15 too loud today, I guess. 16 THE WITNESS: The speaker is working. 17 THE SECRETARY: Can we take a real short break? 18 MR. IREY: We need a three-minute break. You 19 probably can stay there. If it's longer than three 20 minutes, I will kick you out. 21 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Irey, would it be okay to 22 go off the record until she returns? 23 MR. IREY: Yes. 24 THE FOREPERSON: Let's go off the record then. 25 (Recess taken from 9:34 to 9:37 a.m.) 2256 1 THE FOREPERSON: We will go back on the record. 2 Q BY MR. IREY: At lunch time, you were 3 discussing how to remove a tank? 4 A Yes. And that's when my dad had mentioned 5 to 'em that he had seen a tank be removed by floating it, 6 I think putting water -- dumping water by the tank and 7 then it would float an empty tank out of the ground. 8 Q But do you remember discussing whether the 9 tank needed dry ice? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you remember discussing whether the 12 tank had been emptied? 13 A I remember Bob saying it was empty. 14 Q Do you remember whether or not Bob said 15 anything about he has taken tanks out of the ground in 16 the past? 17 A I don't believe so. 18 Q Do you remember whether Bob said, as soon 19 as we are done loading the stuff in the trucks, we will 20 go ahead and pull the tank? 21 A No. 22 Q So then you come back from lunch and you 23 continue to load trucks, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q At some point, did the trucks start making 2257 1 the round trips more quickly than they had made on 2 Saturday? Instead of taking an hour, maybe taking 15 3 minutes or less? Or do you remember? 4 A They seemed like they were shorter. 5 Timewise, I don't know. I am not sure. 6 Q Investigator Hall somewhere wrote or told 7 me that you said the trucks were coming faster than you 8 could load them at one point? 9 A Yeah. Later on, they were. Because I 10 didn't have as much material to collect up. And they 11 were able to get there before I was ready for them. 12 Q I don't remember your answers because I 13 wasn't able to read the transcripts that were provided so 14 graciously to me. Did I ask -- I am not going to ask 15 that. 16 Last time, did you tell us whether or not 17 you were present when Mark Sherrill suggested to Bob 18 Womack, if he did, Why don't we stop going to the dump? 19 Why don't we just dump it on my property or Georgia 20 Pacific? 21 A Yeah, I remembered you asked me. I don't 22 know if that conversation took place. I wasn't involved 23 with it, if it did. 24 Q Okay. So then after you got rid of most 25 of the demolition debris, how did the tank come up? 2258 1 A Well, first we -- I demoed the concrete 2 slab, and I think there was a retaining wall in the east 3 end, and hauled that off. 4 Q Did you have any discussions regarding the 5 structural integrity of the retaining wall? 6 A Yeah, I did ask Bob about the -- that 7 retaining wall staying for structural integrity of the 8 upper retaining wall and the fence. And he said that was 9 designed or built to -- to retain the material above it, 10 and to just slope the excavation bank where the smaller 11 retaining wall was. 12 Q So you remember specifically mentioning to 13 him the retaining wall issue? 14 A Correct. 15 Q I think maybe the day after you testified, 16 you called me and gave me a short list of things that you 17 thought that you could have answered more completely or 18 something about OSHA training? 19 A Yeah. You had asked me if I had OSHA 20 training, and I said no. Now thinking about it, I have 21 had OSHA training on asbestos removal. 22 Q Okay. 23 A And another one on trench excavation. But 24 I don't believe that was an OSHA requirement, but it was 25 a class. 2259 1 Q So when you said no, it was no for 2 hazardous wastes? 3 A Correct. 4 Q But you had had OSHA training for asbestos? 5 A Correct. 6 Q What were the other things, if you 7 remember? 8 A Another one was about Womack paying me 9 timely. At least, I said he has always paid me timely. 10 But there was one instance where there was a confusion 11 between, I think, him and his nephew Mike and -- but it 12 got resolved. It took a while, but I did get paid for 13 it. 14 Q So you did some work at Mike Womack's? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And so then sometime that afternoon, after 17 you loaded trucks and after you took out the retaining 18 wall, what then happened? 19 A Mmmm... We cleaned up all the concrete 20 and hauled all the concrete away, removed a car lift. 21 And towards the end of the day, that's when Bob said he 22 wanted to dig out and remove the tank. 23 Q And he said that in your presence? Or in 24 a bunch of people's presence? Or how did that come up? 25 A Mmmm... It was probably between the group 2260 1 of us. 2 And I remember between just him and I, 3 telling him that, you know, I do not know all the rules 4 and regulations, but I am sure there would be a permit 5 process, paperwork; if nothing else, somebody to inspect 6 the operation. 7 He said that he had it all taken care of. 8 And the City had told him to -- that they wanted -- that 9 he had told them that he was removing a building to build 10 another structure and they knew that the building and 11 everything had to come out to build this new building, 12 and that they wanted it done on the weekend because -- I 13 believe because school would be out on the weekend. 14 Q Okay. And so who was present on the site 15 at that time you started scraping around the edge of the 16 tank? 17 A Mmmm... Bob and Mark Sherrill, Nick 18 Hernandez and Luke. And I am not sure if June was or 19 not. 20 Q Do you think your dad had left by that 21 time? Or was he still around? 22 A He had left prior to the tank being dug up. 23 Q Okay. So then you dug up one side of the 24 tank, the side away from 88/49, and tried to get the tank 25 out of the ground -- and it didn't come out, correct? 2261 1 A Correct. 2 Q And then what steps were taken or did you 3 have another sit-down and discuss how to get the tank out 4 of the ground or how to disconnect the piping or any of 5 those things? 6 A Yeah. They -- they disconnected the 7 piping. I don't know who had said to do what. I think 8 Bob had decided that. I told Bob that I would have to 9 relieve more of the material around the tank to try to 10 pull it out. And so he was anxious to get it out. But I 11 told him that, you know, the only way to get it out would 12 be to dig more material around the tank. 13 Q When you say "anxious to get it out," did 14 he make statements? How did that work? 15 A He -- well, he just kept wanting to try to 16 put a chain on it and wanting to lift it out. 17 Q At that time, was there a vehicle sitting 18 there ready to have the tank loaded onto it? 19 A I don't think so. I think it was after I 20 had pulled it up out of the ground is when the truck 21 arrived. 22 Q Okay. So you go and you excavate the 23 other side of the tank and people use shovels to remove 24 some of the pea gravel. Is that what you remember? 25 A Yes. 2262 1 Q Do you remember any smell of diesel or 2 contaminated soil or gasoline? 3 A Mmmm... I can remember a slight smell 4 of -- of not raw gas, but, you know. 5 Q Old gas? 6 A Dirt, you know. Gas that's been in dirt. 7 Q Okay. Did you discuss that with anybody? 8 Or you just -- 9 A Yeah, I did talk to Bob about it. And he 10 had told me that when Masons had put this new tank in, 11 like he said, two years ago, when they removed the old 12 tank, all the contaminated materials had been removed 13 and it was a clean bill of health. 14 Q Did it seem clean to you? 15 A Mmmm... No, not completely. 16 Q Did you say, Bob, I can smell gas here? 17 A Yeah, I did point out to him. 18 Q And he said, I can't or -- 19 A More or less. 20 Q So at that point, before the tank actually 21 came out of the ground, you had talked to Bob about that 22 the soil might be contaminated? 23 A Yes. 24 Q If that's true -- I am not trying to put 25 words in your mouth -- is that, in essence -- 2263 1 A It was either before or after. I did talk 2 to him about it. I am not sure at what point in time I 3 did. 4 Q When the tank came out of the ground, did 5 you actually set it on the surface of the ground until 6 the truck and trailer came? Or how did that work? 7 A I just lifted it up a foot or two until 8 the truck and trailer came. 9 Q So it just hung there? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Until the truck and trailer arrived? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. Was there any discussion before the 14 tank came completely loose that you would just leave it 15 in the hole overnight and the next day come and remove 16 the tank and take it to the dump? 17 A Not with me, no. 18 Q Okay. So hypothetically, if Bob Womack, 19 at that meeting that you got to a little late on 20 September 2nd, told everybody at the meeting that: I was 21 going to leave the tank in the ground. Billy Wolin was 22 just cleaning up the dirt around the area, straightening 23 up for the night. And then the guy happened to show up 24 with the truck. So we made a decision to stop doing the 25 cleanup and start pulling the tank again. 2264 1 Is that how the sequence worked? Or did 2 you stay on the tank once you started on the tank? 3 A Stayed on it. 4 Q So you didn't take out half the tank and 5 then say, Forget it, we will do it tomorrow and take it 6 to the dump at any point. You, personally. 7 A Right. No. We stayed on it. 8 Q And after you got the tank partially 9 uncovered, you didn't go start loading Mark Sherrill's 10 trucks with the -- 11 A Debris. 12 Q -- debris? 13 A No. 14 Q So then if Bob told us at that meeting on 15 September 2nd that you were late -- and the Grand Jurors 16 have seen the tape -- then that would be inaccurate? 17 A Correct. 18 Q Because once you started on the tank, you 19 kept on the tank? 20 A Correct. 21 Q Then you lifted it a foot or two out of 22 the ground and it was hanging on the chain. And then a 23 truck showed up? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q Okay. Whose truck? 2265 1 A It was a Sherrill truck. In fact, I 2 believe it was Mark that had drove it up. I did not -- 3 after we loaded the tank, I didn't see Mark get back in 4 it, but I would assume that it would have been Mark. 5 Q Who was left on site? 6 A As soon as the tank was loaded, everybody 7 pretty much started leaving, because it was raining 8 pretty hard. But it was pretty much the group of people 9 that were there. 10 Q Do you know if Luke was still there? 11 A I believe Luke was still there. 12 Q Okay. So was Luke there absolutely until 13 the tank was pulled out of the ground and it was loose? 14 A I think so. 15 Q Pretty sure? 16 A Yeah. 17 Q Kind of sure? You don't know? 18 A Yeah, I am pretty sure he was. 19 Q So if he testified he wasn't there when 20 the tank came out of the ground, then that would be 21 inaccurate? 22 A Correct. 23 Q Okay. And so then you loaded it on the 24 truck. And you didn't get out of the excavator to tie it 25 down. Or did you? 2266 1 A No. 2 Q Who tied it down, if you recall? 3 A I believe it was Mark and probably be Bob 4 and Nick. 5 Q Okay. And then everybody left. And you 6 don't know for sure who got in the truck and drove it 7 off? 8 A No. I did not, you know, visually see who 9 drove away with it. 10 Q Were you ever told who drove away with it? 11 A Was I ever told? 12 Q Except by the District Attorney's Office. 13 A I don't know if I was ever told. I have 14 always assumed who it was. 15 Q And do you know where it went that night? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Did anybody come up alongside of the road 18 around 6:00 that night and say "I will take the tank" as 19 Mr. Womack's story was? 20 A Not that I know of. 21 Q Well, was it Sherrill's truck? 22 A That was there, yes. 23 Q So it absolutely wasn't some unknown guy 24 in some unknown truck? 25 A Correct. 2267 1 Q Okay. And then the next day, on Sunday, 2 we have learned a little more that might help refresh 3 your recollection. 4 Was Mike Womack on site on Sunday? 5 A Yes, towards the end. 6 Q Towards the end? 7 A Mm-hmm. 8 Q Late morning? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. Before that, I think your testimony 11 was that it was Nick, yourself, Robert and Mark. Is that 12 what you remember being Sunday morning? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. And at some point, hypothetically, 15 we have heard a story that Mark left and, when he came 16 back, Bob Womack was gone. And hypothetically, Mark told 17 us that he -- that he was told by the person on site that 18 Bob left with the guy who wanted the tank. 19 And so if you were the guy on site at any 20 point, did you at any point tell Mark Sherrill Bob left 21 with the guy who wanted the underground storage tank and 22 he went up to your property to get it? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you tell him that Bob left with some 25 guy who wanted the tank and you didn't know where they 2268 1 went? 2 A No. 3 Q At any point, did Bob Womack tell you he 4 was leaving the site to give away the underground storage 5 tank that morning? 6 A No. 7 Q At any point, did you tell Mark Sherrill 8 that's where Bob was? 9 A I don't think so, no. 10 Q Is there any reason in the world you 11 would have told Mark Sherrill, Mark, Bob left to give the 12 tank away, that you can recall today? 13 A No. 14 Q Okay. And then at some point, Mike Womack 15 brings fence posts? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And that's the first time you put a fence 18 around the perimeter? 19 A Correct. 20 Q But the day before you actually had your 21 excavator over the top of the hole? 22 A Correct. 23 Q Do you remember if, when Mike Womack was 24 helping put the fence posts up, if Bob Womack was on 25 site? 2269 1 A Yes. 2 Q He was on site? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So Bob Womack would have had to have left, 5 it would -- to give the tank away, it would have had to 6 have been before Mike Womack got there? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you remember Bob leaving for an hour 9 any time that morning? Because that would have limited 10 it to just you and two truck drivers. 11 A I can remember him coming and going. I 12 don't know. I can't remember for how long of a period. 13 He was in and out. 14 Q Okay. You didn't haul the tank off, 15 correct? 16 A Correct. 17 Q You never had it on your property, as far 18 as you know, that you own or your father owns? 19 A No. 20 Q Okay. Then absolute best you can recall, 21 go ahead and give us the story when Bob contacted you on 22 a site when you were working and discussed the story you 23 were supposed to tell authorities. 24 A Well, he had just told me that people were 25 asking him where the tank had went to. And he had told 2270 1 me, if anybody asked me, that -- that don't remember. It 2 was, you know, an unmarked truck that had came and we, 3 you know, loaded it onto. And he felt that the whole 4 thing seemed kind of ridiculous. They are making a big 5 deal about it. And that he would take care of the 6 problem. 7 Q Did he give you specific examples on what 8 to tell people that came by? I mean, the story about the 9 rain or? 10 A Well, he had -- well, yeah. Point in 11 time, he did say that. You probably have a very, you 12 know, difficult time to -- for remembering. You have 13 loaded so many trucks. It was raining really hard. It 14 was getting dark. And him and Mark had told whoever the 15 same story. 16 Q At that time, he told you that Mark and 17 him were telling that same story? 18 A Yeah. 19 Q If you recall? 20 A Yeah. He had said that he -- well, I 21 think that he had told Mark that if anybody comes around 22 asking, that it was: Don't know whose truck and trailer 23 or who hauled it. And had asked me to say the same. 24 Q What about dark, rainy? Was that your 25 story? Or was that his story? 2271 1 A That was his story. 2 Q And that's the story you repeated to 3 Investigator Hall the first time he chatted with you in 4 late July of -- 5 A Right. 6 Q And the reason that you told Investigator 7 Hall that story? 8 "July 17th, 1998. This morning at 9 approximately 9:00 a.m. Bill Wolin called my office. 10 During that conversation, Bill said it was just about 11 dark and pouring down rain. Bill said he really did not 12 look at the truck and trailer that he loaded the tank 13 onto due to the lateness in the day, the dark and the 14 rain." 15 Are you just repeating Womack's story? 16 A Well, no. It was getting dark and it was 17 raining. But yeah, the truck was basically a repeat of 18 what Bob wanted me to say. 19 Q Okay. But again -- I think you have 20 answered it, but did he tell you to talk about it was 21 rainy or not? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did he talk to you about, Make sure you 24 mention it's dark? Or not? 25 A Yes. 2272 1 Q And he absolutely mentioned that he had 2 talked to Mark about it and that that's the story Mark 3 was going to tell? 4 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q Is that a yes for the court reporter? 6 A That he had talked to Mark, and it was an 7 unmarked truck. Didn't know who took it. 8 Q Did he actually say it was not a marked 9 truck? 10 A No, he did not say that. 11 Q At any time, did he tell you, Yeah, I know 12 it was Mark's truck, and let's just forget about it. Or 13 everybody knows it's Mark's truck, but let's tell him we 14 don't know? 15 A No, he didn't say that. 16 Q How many trucks had you loaded between 17 Sunday and Tuesday or Wednesday when he came onto your 18 job site? 19 A Three, the ten-wheeler and the dump and 20 the smaller one. 21 Q Only Mark's trucks? 22 A Right. 23 Q So when you were on up on the project in 24 Pie Valley, you weren't loading trucks? 25 A No. 2273 1 Q What kind of job was Pie Valley? 2 A It was paving, patching the road. 3 Q So the last trucks that you loaded before 4 Bob came to see you was Mark Sherrill's truck? 5 A Correct. 6 Q And that was on Sunday, you were doing 7 some loads? 8 A Yes. 9 Q But on Saturday night, the last thing you 10 loaded was? 11 A Mark's smaller truck. 12 Q With? 13 A The tank. 14 Q And you are positive? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. And so did Bob -- I think you 17 testified before. Did he call you again months later and 18 talk to you about your testimony? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. Go through that again. 21 A Mmmm... Well, I told him, if this goes to 22 court, I could not -- you know, under oath, to say I 23 don't -- can't remember what truck the tank went onto. 24 And he was a little upset and said that, 25 you know, you could easily forget which trucks you loaded 2274 1 or, you know, where the car lift went onto and which 2 trucks, all this and that. 3 Q Is this face to face or on the phone? 4 A It was over the phone. 5 Q Okay. 6 A And he basically said, you know, just tell 7 him you can't remember which truck it was that you loaded 8 the tank onto. 9 Q At that point, didn't you say, I know it's 10 Sherrill's truck? Or he said -- or was -- 11 A No, I didn't. I didn't say that. I just 12 told him I could not do it under oath in court. 13 And so he said, Well, the tank is -- you 14 know, they have it. And basically, the whole thing is 15 ridiculous. And he would take care of it. But more or 16 less, trying to ensure me that you could easily forget 17 about it. Which I haven't. 18 Q Okay. And then there was a piece of paper 19 he wanted you to sign that says we want to talk to the 20 Grand Jury. But you never saw that piece of paper? 21 A No. I think you had showed me that in 22 your office. 23 Q But you never actually saw that piece of 24 paper? 25 A No. 2275 1 Q But he had called a couple times or come 2 by your house? 3 A Yeah. He had called one time. I didn't 4 return his message. Then he came by, I think, probably a 5 week or two later, and talked to my wife. 6 Q Since your last testimony here, have you 7 talked to Womack or his kids or Sherrill? 8 A No. 9 Q Again related to Mark Sherrill, you 10 mentioned that he said, Don't worry. It will never be 11 found again. 12 How did that conversation come up? At 13 about what time was it? Right after the tank? 14 A I think it was probably the next morning 15 I had saw him. 16 Q The next morning? 17 A Sunday morning when we were loading the 18 rest of the -- 19 Q So it was the very next day Mark said, 20 Don't worry? 21 A I believe so. 22 Q So how did the tank come up that day? 23 A I think I asked him what he did with it or 24 where it went. And he just mentioned it went somewhere 25 it will never be found. 2276 1 Q So Sunday morning, May 3rd, Mark Sherrill 2 told you in a conversation -- after you asked him, What 3 happened to the tank? He said, Don't worry. It will 4 never be found. 5 A Yeah, I believe that was the next day. 6 Q Why would he say something like that if he 7 thought what he was doing was legal, if you know? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Okay. That's good. 10 A I believe it was Mark. It was either him 11 or Bob. I think it was Mark that had told me that. 12 Q On site at 505 Sutter, the next day? 13 A I believe so. 14 Q But you are not 100 percent sure? 15 A No. 16 Q You are sure you had a conversation along 17 those lines? 18 A Right. 19 Q You smile when I ask 100 percent questions. 20 A Well, you know, it's been almost seven 21 months ago. I am trying to remember which day. 22 Q You could have told us the straight scoop 23 on July 17th. 24 A Yes. And I do regret that. 25 Q Okay. But go ahead. 2277 1 So when I asked you 100 percent, you 2 remember having a conversation, you are pretty sure it 3 was with Mark, but it was with somebody on site? 4 A Well, on -- well, it was either on site or 5 at Mel's, either one of the two. 6 Q Did you have breakfast at Mel's the next 7 day? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Oh, 63 witnesses in. 10 Who had breakfast at Mel's on Sunday, May 11 3rd? 12 A I think it was Mark and Nick, Bob. I 13 believe June. I am not sure if Luke was there. 14 Q So in front of that group, either -- 15 probably Mark, but maybe Bob, said, Don't worry. It will 16 never be found. 17 A I believe so. 18 Q Or at the site 505? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q But it wasn't months later? 21 A No. 22 Q Besides that time when Mark, to the best 23 of your recollection, says, Don't worry, it will never be 24 found, did you have any other conversations with Mark, 25 even in the parking lot after the September 2nd meeting, 2278 1 where Mark assured you that there weren't going to be any 2 further problems? Or was it that one time the next day? 3 A Well, Mark didn't assure me. It was Bob 4 that said that he would take care of this ordeal. 5 After that meeting on September, I did see 6 Mark and asked him what was going on when the tank had 7 been found. And he told me he didn't know what was going 8 on. And he did just mention that he didn't -- he would 9 have a tough time with a three-year probation and not -- 10 since he had several trucks, not knowing, you know, every 11 day where they are going and what they are being loaded 12 with. He was -- basically, didn't want -- didn't -- when 13 you had offered the tank to be found and paying a fine, 14 he didn't sound like he wanted the three-year probation. 15 Q Okay. I am going to leave that in. 16 Normally, I would strike that as non-responsive, but I 17 don't want to make it look like I am giving up 18 exculpatory evidence. 19 Did Mark Sherrill at any time other than 20 the day after the tank came out of the ground try to talk 21 you into or out of telling investigators the truth? 22 A No. 23 Q Okay. The September 2nd meeting, when 24 myself and Ron Hall and Lance Hayden left, were there 25 discussions that seemed to you whether or not that the 2279 1 tank would certainly be found and that the advertisement 2 that Mr. Womack was going to put in the paper was just a 3 sham? If you recall? 4 A No, no. Bob pretty much talked like he 5 didn't know where the tank was at. 6 Q Okay. And then the call that you had with 7 Bob Womack was after the Grand Jury proceeding had almost 8 started. Was it sometime in October or November of this 9 year, where he called you and -- 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. So if we bracket it 12 October/November, then that covers when the phone call 13 would have happened? 14 A Yes. 15 Q May have been real early November? 16 A Yeah, would have been early. 17 Q Or late October? 18 A October. 19 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 20 Wolin. 21 Q Mr. Wolin, you testified truthfully here 22 today? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And you testified truthfully last time, 25 but just in short segments; is that correct? 2280 1 A Yes. Very nervous. Not like I am not 2 nervous now. 3 Q Did you ever ask Womack why he wanted you 4 to lie about who hauled the tank away? 5 A Yeah. I did ask him, when the County was 6 making a big deal about where the tank went, I had asked 7 him why -- if he didn't know not to remove the tank, and 8 just not -- or tell 'em where it went to. And his answer 9 to that is he didn't want to get anybody into a lot of 10 trouble or cost them a lot of money. 11 Q So at some point, he knew that there was a 12 penalty associated with what he had done? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So if he just talks to the newspapers and 15 talks to everybody at Mel's right now and says he doesn't 16 know what he did was wrong, then that is inconsistent 17 with what -- 18 A Well, this was -- this was several -- this 19 was probably the day -- Monday or Tuesday that following 20 week, right after we -- 21 Q But right after? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Not in September, October, November? 24 A No. 25 Q Monday or Tuesday, he knew he was in 2281 1 trouble? 2 A Yeah. 3 Q Or Wednesday? 4 A The beginning -- yeah, the next -- that 5 following week. 6 Q And he actually asked you to lie? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And the reason for it was because he 9 didn't want to get people in trouble? 10 A Correct. 11 Q Did you ask him where the tank went? 12 A Mmmm... No, I didn't ask him. Didn't 13 care to want to know. 14 Q You didn't want to know at that point? 15 A No. At that point, I just did not want to 16 even talk or be associated with the whole situation. 17 Q Hoped it would go away? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did you give Mr. Womack or Mr. Mason 20 permission to use Wolin and Sons' Workers' Comp. numbers 21 and contractor's license numbers? 22 A No. 23 Q Not at any time? 24 A No. 25 MR. IREY: Any other questions of any Grand 2282 1 Jurors? 2 Q Do you feel relieved now you have been 3 able to tell the truth? 4 A Yes. Still not looking forward to having 5 to go to court, if it comes to that. 6 MR. IREY: And for the record, it's a separately 7 negotiated deal, but I think Bill A. Wolin knows, I 8 called Mr. Bill E. Wolin last week, and I am not going to 9 put Wolin -- I got rid of the injunctive provision. All 10 he is going to do now is train his employees. Bill will 11 go to 40-hour class and donate $2,000 in publications. 12 There won't be something out there hanging over Bill's 13 head. This might read peculiar in the record. I wanted 14 you guys to know that. 15 Q You are not coming in today to testify any 16 way differently than you would have because I called your 17 dad, correct? 18 A No. 19 Q It's just, it happened to be you needed to 20 come in because the Grand Jurors needed to hear 21 narrative, correct? 22 A Yeah, you had asked me to. 23 Q I told you and your dad, based on the 24 information I learned in the Grand Jury, it might have 25 seemed a little strict what I had done to his business, 2283 1 which is partially your business. Is that your 2 understanding? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did Bob Womack offer you money not to 5 remember any details of the tank removal? 6 A No. 7 Q And you don't think that that thing with 8 the car had anything to do with him trying to treat you 9 wonderfully? 10 A Mmmm... I don't think so. He has offered 11 to help me out with purchasing vehicles in the past. 12 Q Buy any of those in Oregon? 13 A To buy any from Oregon? 14 Q Do you buy any of your cars from Oregon? 15 A Oh, no. 16 Q Why? 17 A I just -- I have no reason to. 18 Q Do you live in California? 19 A Yes. 20 Q So you buy from California? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Does Bob live in California? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Pretty much the whole time you have known 25 him? 2284 1 A Yes. 2 Q He doesn't leave for six months and go to 3 Oregon, if you know? 4 A No. 5 Q He is always around? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q Do you remember when you first saw the 8 Lincoln Navigator in California? If you remember? 9 A Mmmm... Yeah, it was -- 10 Q Before last Christmas is the key date. 11 Do you remember if you saw the Lincoln 12 Navigator in California before last Christmas? 13 A I think so. 14 Q That's based on? 15 A Well, the job that I was doing was right 16 close to his house. And so I would see him drive by. 17 Q Do you know when you were doing that job? 18 A Yes. It was last fall and winter. 19 Q So it was last fall before Christmas? 20 A Correct. 21 Q And you remember him driving by in the 22 Lincoln Navigator? 23 A I believe so, yes. 24 MR. IREY: Okay. Other questions of Mr. Womack? 25 Did I accidentally call you Mr. Womack at 2285 1 all today? If I did, of course, I apologize. 2 Q Did you remove the piping between the tank 3 and the pump island on Sunday or Saturday, if you know? 4 A I don't think so. 5 Q Might still be there? 6 A It might still be there. 7 Q Three feet underground. One nice scoop 8 with a excavator bucket, we could know? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q Two scoops? 11 A Yeah. I -- if it was more than a foot 12 deep, it's probably still there. 13 Q How were you covered by any insurance? 14 A Well, at the time, I thought I was working 15 for the company. And it wasn't until we finished that 16 Bob had asked me how much I wanted for doing the work. 17 And at that time, I told him he would be 18 getting a bill from the company for my time and 19 equipment. And he told me that he had already discussed 20 it with my dad, that he was going to pay me directly. So 21 then he asked me how much. And I just gave him a total 22 amount that more or less reflected what I would get per 23 hour. 24 Q For the two days? 25 A Yes. 2286 1 Q Was the equipment insured? 2 A Through the company. Through the company. 3 Q What's the -- have you heard who actually 4 hauled the tank ever? 5 A Well, rumors. It's always been Mark 6 through rumors. 7 Q Okay. What about where the tank was? 8 A Mmmm... 9 Q For those four plus months? 10 A No, I don't know. 11 Q Okay. Where did you have lunch on May 2nd 12 and who was there? 13 A I don't -- I don't -- I don't recall 14 having lunch. I think we worked straight through. 15 Q On May 2nd. Not on Sunday; on Saturday. 16 A Oh, on Saturday. At Mel's. 17 Q At Mel's? 18 A I believe so. 19 Q Mel's made a lot of money off you guys 20 that day. 21 A Off of Bob. 22 Q So Bob bought lunch, too? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And this is calling for -- it's called a 25 lay witness opinion. 2287 1 Do you at any time think that Mr. Robert 2 Womack did believe that he had a legal permit to do the 3 demolition and pulling of the tanks? Or do you think the 4 whole thing was a sham? 5 A Right now or back then? 6 Q Back then. 7 A Yes, I believe he did. 8 Q Because he told you? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. But do you, if you have any idea -- 11 okay. You answered the question. 12 Do you think that he knew that he needed a 13 County permit? 14 A No. 15 Q That's what you thought then. What do you 16 think now that you have heard other stories? 17 A Well, now, apparently he did need a County 18 permit. 19 Q Because he has been told by agencies that 20 he needed a County permit. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Here is one. If you were told by three 23 different people that you needed County permits, would 24 you just blow them off? 25 A But by just people or the County 2288 1 themselves? 2 Q By the County themselves. 3 A Yes, I would. 4 Q You would blow them off? 5 A No. I would get a permit. 6 Q Okay. After Mr. Womack went to check the 7 County office -- okay. 8 On Monday, when Mr. Womack went to check 9 the County office and he found out he was in trouble, is 10 this how you see it? Or do you believe that he framed 11 the business Wolin and Sons? 12 A Repeat that again, Dave. 13 Q On May 4th, after Mr. Womack went to check 14 the County office and found out that he was in trouble, 15 is that the first time you think Mr. Womack knew he was 16 in trouble? Or do you think he framed the business Wolin 17 and Sons? 18 A I think that's probably when he realized 19 that he probably got himself in some hot water with the 20 County. 21 Q Okay. But you don't think the whole thing 22 was a setup on Wolin and Sons? 23 A Uh... 24 Q Or do you? 25 A I don't -- as time goes on, I tend to want 2289 1 to believe it. But at that time, I think he was just 2 trying to save money to do it independently himself. 3 Q Have you ever gotten a $5,500 bid and 4 known you could do it for 200 bucks? 5 A No. 6 Q And gone ahead and done it that way? 7 A No. 8 Q Have you ever given away $1.2 million for 9 a hundred bucks? 10 A No. 11 Q Not even to your brother? 12 A Pardon? 13 Q Not even to a brother? 14 A Give away? No. 15 MR. IREY: Any other questions of the Grand 16 Jurors? Okay. 17 The Foreman has an admonition for you, 18 Bill. 19 I hope your wife feels better. 20 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Thank you. 21 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 22 to any person, except as directed by the Court, what 23 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 24 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 25 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 2290 1 appearance before the Grand Jury. 2 This admonition continues unless and until 3 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 4 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 5 punishable as contempt of court. 6 This does not prevent you from discussing 7 the matter with your attorney, if you have an attorney 8 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 9 Grand Jury. 10 It is the 30th. 11 MR. IREY: You want to take five minutes? Then I 12 think the testimony will take 30, 35 minutes. And then 13 we will be ready for the instructions. 14 THE FOREPERSON: That fine for everybody? Get 15 your coffee out and everything. 16 MR. IREY: Water. 17 THE FOREPERSON: Hold on. Let me -- I mean, get 18 it out of their system. 19 Hold on. Let me read the first admonition 20 of the day. 21 The Grand Jurors are admonished they are 22 not to form or express any opinions about this case or 23 discuss it among themselves until the Grand Jury receives 24 the case for deliberation. In addition, no inspection of 25 evidence should be conducted without the permission of 2291 1 the Foreperson and on the advice of the prosecuting 2 attorney. 3 A violation of this rule could result in a 4 charge of contempt against a Grand Juror who would 5 investigate or view any matters with regard to this case 6 without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 7 We will take a recess until 10:30. Ten 8 minutes. Thank you. 9 We are off the record. 10 (Recess taken from 10:19 to 10:32 a.m.) 11 THE FOREPERSON: We are on the record. 12 MR. IREY: Jim Walshaw. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Walshaw, if you could remain 14 standing, please, and raise your right hand. 15 THE WITNESS: Sure. 16 THE FOREPERSON: You do solemnly swear that the 17 evidence you shall give in this investigation now pending 18 before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole 19 truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 20 THE WITNESS: I do. 21 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 22 23 (TIME NOTED: 10:32 A.M.) 24 ---oOo--- 25 2292 1 JIM WALSHAW 2 Called as a witness herein by the People, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 4 and testified as follows: 5 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. IREY: 8 Q Jim, if you can -- I mean, Mr. Walshaw, 9 sorry -- answer audibly for the Members of the Grand 10 Jury. And the guy in the back sits back there so he 11 grades you one to ten at the end. 12 A There you go. 13 Q Who is your current employer? 14 A Amador County District Attorney's Office. 15 Q And prior to that, who was your employer? 16 A Jackson Police Department. 17 Q And could you briefly describe your 18 background and training, especially if you have any POST 19 training, please. 20 A POST training. I have attended the POST 21 basic police academy, got -- well, I have got starting 20 22 years in law enforcement. I was a deputy sheriff for 23 County of Yolo from 1979 until '85. And then from '85, I 24 was a police officer with the Southern Pacific Railroad 25 police, and from 1985 to '88. 2293 1 And from 1988 until January of 1996, I was 2 with Jackson Police Department. And from -- I'm sorry. 3 From January of '97. From January of '97 until the 4 present, I have been with the Amador County District 5 Attorney's Office. 6 Q What is your current assignment? 7 A I am a criminal investigator in the Bureau 8 of Investigations. I do auto theft, fraud, Workers' 9 Comp. fraud. 10 Q Okay. And did you participate in any 11 search warrants in October 1998? 12 A I believe that was on October 30th of 13 1998. I assisted in the search warrants at two locations. 14 Q Okay. And one of the locations was a 15 house of KRL Partnership/Bob Womack? 16 A Yes. 17 Q On Ridge Road? 18 A That was at 156 -- if I can refer to the 19 note here? The address on that was xxxxx Ridge Road, 20 County of Amador. 21 Q About what time of day did you get to the 22 residence? 23 A I am recollecting it was right around 24 9:30, 10:00. It might have been a little bit later than 25 that. 2294 1 Q Because the goal that day was to try to 2 get it done by 10:00. And we didn't get started on time? 3 A Correct. 4 Q And you went there with how many people? 5 A I went there with two investigators with 6 our office, a member of the Highway Patrol. There was, I 7 believe, three members of the Highway Patrol, plus a 8 uniformed Highway Patrol officer. 9 Q For safety? 10 A For safety. 11 Q But who actually went into Womack's house? 12 A Into Womack's house? There was three 13 investigators, myself, and Highway Patrol members. 14 Q Okay. 15 A That were plain clothes. 16 Q So six of you? 17 A Correct. 18 Q At some point after the building was 19 secure, you guys went to do another search warrant? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q About how long were you at Bob 22 Womack's/KRL's house? 23 A I would say roughly three hours at the 24 most. 25 Q How long were you at Mark Sherrill's house 2295 1 on Smalley Drive -- Avenue? 2 A Approximately two hours, two and a half 3 hours. 4 Q And the people that went to Mark 5 Sherrill's house were whom? 6 A It was myself, a uniformed officer from 7 Jackson Police Department. It would be Officer 8 Campbell. My partner, Jerry Sims, with the Amador County 9 District Attorney's Office, and a member from the Highway 10 Patrol who was part of the first search warrant. 11 Q At the Sherrills' house, you actually 12 just asked Mr. and Mrs. Sherrill where the records were, 13 correct? 14 A When I arrived at the Sherrill residence, 15 there was nobody home. We made a phone call to Mrs. 16 Sherrill's place of employment. 17 Q So you didn't knock the door down? 18 A No. We had her respond to the location, 19 at which time she let us into the house. 20 I advised her of what we needed, gave her 21 a copy of the search warrant. And which she complied by 22 obtaining the documents which we needed from her file 23 cabinet in the living room. 24 Q So the total documents was a manila 25 envelope with just a couple dozen pieces of paper? 2296 1 A Correct. 2 Q And a little videotape of your entry? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Not videotape. Audio tape. 5 A We did have a videotape with us, but it 6 was not activated. It was an audio tape. 7 Q Okay. When you -- when you participated 8 with these warrants, did you begin to learn some 9 information related to Mr. Womack -- Mr. Robert 10 Womack/KRL's business activities? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q Anything related to Contractors Licensing 13 Board and Workers' Comp? 14 A To -- actually, to both. 15 During the course of the investigation 16 that was ongoing with the search warrants, it was brought 17 to my attention during that period of time that the 18 parties of KRL, Robert Womack and Roland Womack were 19 assumedly operating under the pretense of having a 20 contractor's license or being the owners of the property 21 on Sutter Street, which was the old Mason gas station 22 located in the City of Jackson. During research into 23 that, I had found that both KRL, Roland and Robert Womack 24 were non-licensees with the State of California, as far 25 as having a contractor's license. 2297 1 Q And Grand Jury Exhibit 121 is a certified 2 copy of that non-license status? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Okay. And did you learn anything about 5 Workers' Comp.? 6 A Also during that course of investigation, 7 I had contacted the Insurance Rating Bureau, which is 8 located in San Francisco, California, and made inquiries 9 to the effect of if Roland Womack, Robert Womack or KRL 10 Partnership had any Workers' Compensation insurance. 11 During that contact, I had learned that 12 Roland Womack does have Workers' Compensation insurance 13 with the business that he has that is located in the City 14 of Jackson that he is a dentist at, and which I believe, 15 to the best of my recollection, it was four employees 16 that were covered under Workers' Comp. 17 Q Was Billy Wolin covered? 18 A No. 19 Q Nick Hernandez? 20 A Not to my knowledge. 21 Q Luke Womack? 22 A Not to my knowledge. 23 Q Mike Womack? 24 A Not to my knowledge. 25 Q Mark Sherrill? 2298 1 A Not to my knowledge. 2 Q Okay. 3 A During that inquiry, what I had found, 4 that this would be related to the field of dentistry, 5 that these people would be covered under the Workers' 6 Comp. insurance. 7 Q Okay. Have you had an opportunity to 8 interview Mr. William E. Wolin? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 Q Did you bring a document with you today? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q We are going to put this in as what's 13 called a government record. 14 This is the original, correct, Mr. 15 Walshaw? 16 A Yes, it is. 17 Q And essentially, could you -- you can't 18 testify to what Mr. Wolin told you, because in a Grand 19 Jury we are not able to use hearsay. 20 But did Mr. Wolin -- is it your 21 understanding that Mr. Wolin did or did not give 22 permission to Mr. Womack to use his Workmen's Comp. and 23 contractor's status? 24 A During the course of my investigation, it 25 was found on my part that Mr. Wolin did not give 2299 1 permission to use his contractor's license number nor his 2 Workers' Comp. carrier insurance number to either Roland, 3 KRL or Robert Womack. 4 Q And you drafted up a basically statement 5 under penalty of perjury for Mr. Wolin, correct? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q Did Mr. Wolin sign this in your presence? 8 A Yes, he did. 9 Q And did you witness that signature? 10 A Yes. My signature is also on that 11 document. 12 Q Could you read the document into the 13 record, please. 14 This is Grand Jury Exhibit 127, correct? 15 A Correct. 16 "To whom it may concern. 17 "Please be advised that Roland 18 Womack, Robert Womack or KRL Partnership did not 19 have permission to use my contractor's license No. 20 23605 Class A to perform a contract" -- 21 correction -- "a contact at 505 Sutter Street, 22 Jackson, Amador County, California, 95642, on or 23 about May 1st, 1998, May 2nd, 1998 and May 3rd, 24 1998. 25 "Nor did Roland Womack, Robert 2300 1 Womack or KRL Partnership have permission to enter 2 into said contract in my behalf at the time or at 3 any other time. 4 "I certify under penalty of perjury 5 under the laws of the State of California that the 6 foregoing is true and correct. 7 "Executed November 19th, 1998 in 8 Amador County, California." 9 And it was signed by William E. Wolin. 10 His address is 50 Main Street, Sutter Creek, California. 11 And it was witnessed by myself, James L. Walshaw, 12 Investigator with Amador County District Attorney's 13 Office. 14 Q Okay. Grand Jury Exhibit 122, 15 certification of records you have obtained in this case. 16 That doesn't specifically mention Robert Womack, correct? 17 A Correct. 18 Q But it's your understanding that you did 19 check on Robert Womack, correct? 20 A When I did my initial contact by telephone 21 with the Insurance Rating Bureau, I had spoke with one of 22 the -- one of the employees at that place. And they had 23 told me over the phone that Robert Womack did not have 24 any type of Workers' Comp. coverage. They had no record 25 of him whatsoever. 2301 1 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions of 2 Mr. Walshaw. If any Member of the Grand Jury at this 3 time has any questions of Mr. Walshaw, I would be happy 4 to ask them at this point. 5 Q And your investigation is ongoing, 6 correct? 7 A Yes, it is. 8 Q What does the word "demolition" mean to 9 you? 10 A Well, it would mean the tearing down of or 11 destroying of. 12 Q Did Mark Sherrill have a contractor's 13 license? 14 A Mark Sherrill that I had found through my 15 investigation does not have a contractor's license with 16 the State Contracting Licensing Board, no. 17 Q Did you actually call the Contracting 18 Licensing Board? 19 A Yes, I did. 20 Q Does Sherrill have Workers' Comp. with his 21 business, if you know? 22 A I do not know with his trucking business, 23 no. That has not been researched at this time. 24 MR. IREY: Any other questions of any of the 25 Grand Jurors? 2302 1 THE WITNESS: If I may point out one thing on 2 that issue with the Workers' Comp. -- 3 MR. IREY: Sure. 4 THE WITNESS: -- regarding Mr. Sherrill? 5 If he had Workers' Comp. insurance that 6 would cover his employees for his business, that would 7 not cover the employment that was done by KRL Partnership 8 or Roland or Robert Womack. 9 Q BY MR. IREY: So if they were working for 10 Mark Sherrill, for Mark Sherrill's business, and he had 11 it, then they would be covered? 12 A If they were working for him. If he was 13 the contractor that was working, say, the job. 14 Hypothetically, if he was the employer or contractor in 15 charge of that job, then he would have to have Workers' 16 Comp. insurance for all employees. 17 Q Withhold Social Security, all those types 18 of things? 19 A Correct. Then you are running into the 20 EDD issues. 21 Q You have not researched those yet, correct? 22 A Those are being researched now at this 23 time. 24 MR. IREY: Any other questions, except -- I 25 know, Mr. Grand Juror. 2303 1 Q What evidence do you have that leads you 2 to believe Dave Mason III knew about the station? Okay. 3 A The evidence which I have obtained on that 4 issue is that Mr. Mason had applied -- I believe, without 5 having the record with me -- I think it's one or two days 6 after the removal of the tank, he applied at the County 7 of Amador for removal of a storage tank, which was done 8 after the fact. 9 Q And used Mr. Wolin's numbers? 10 A He had placed Mr. Wolin's name as the 11 contractor. There was no license number on that 12 documentation which he had put in place on the 13 application for the removal. 14 Q Ron Hall is the lead investigator on this 15 case, correct? 16 A Correct. 17 Q And your issues have just now precipitated 18 into the Workers' Comp., EDD, Contractors Licensing 19 Board; is that correct? 20 A Correct. 21 Q So as far as going through these thousands 22 of pages of documents, you haven't sat down and gone 23 through them page by page by page? 24 A No. The only issues which I have brought 25 up so far is obtaining any permits through either the 2304 1 City of Jackson and/or with the County of Amador. At 2 that point, the permits that were obtained were the ones 3 that were under Roland Womack for the demolition. And 4 when I was at the County records, I had obtained the 5 application for removal of the storage tank which was 6 dated after the fact. 7 MR. IREY: Any other questions? 8 Mr. Walshaw, at this point, the Grand Jury 9 Foreman has an admonition for you. And I thank you for 10 your time. 11 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 12 to any person except as directed by the Court what 13 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 14 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 15 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 16 appearance before the Grand Jury. 17 This admonition continues unless and until 18 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 19 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 20 punishable as contempt of court. 21 This does not prevent you from discussing 22 the matter with your attorney, if you have an attorney 23 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 24 Grand Jury. 25 And date and signature saying I read that 2305 1 to you. 2 Thank you very much. 3 MR. IREY: Thank you. 4 MR. IREY: Russ Moore will be next. 5 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Moore, since it's been a 6 week, I will go ahead and reread the oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 THE FOREPERSON: You do solemnly swear that the 9 evidence you shall give in this investigation now pending 10 before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole 11 and truth nothing but the truth, so help you God. 12 THE WITNESS: I do. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 14 (TIME NOTED: 10:49 A.M.) 15 ---oOo--- 16 RUSS MOORE 17 Called as a witness herein by the People, 18 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 19 and testified as follows: 20 21 EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. IREY: 23 Q Mr. Moore, you have begun investigating 24 other violations of the law in this case; is that 25 correct? 2306 1 A That's correct. 2 Q And I did that to you during your 3 Thanksgiving break; is that correct? 4 A That is also correct. 5 Q Did you learn anything in your 6 investigation over the last week, week and a half? 7 A On the 16th of November, I discovered this 8 last week, I think, on Monday, apparently Mr. Womack went 9 into DMV here in Jackson and made application for new 10 titles to the vehicles, the four that we have already 11 entered into evidence. 12 I am waiting for certified copies to 13 arrive. Naturally, with the Thanksgiving weekend, nobody 14 was working, so I haven't been able to get those yet. 15 Q Okay. But were you able to locate 16 information on one vehicle, the Lincoln Navigator, Grand