IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF AMADOR ---oOo--- The People of the State of California) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) No. 98-0767 ) ROBERT ROLAND WOMACK, DAVID STERLING ) MASON III and MARK SHERRILL, ) Defendants. ) _____________________________________) PROCEEDINGS HELD BEFORE THE GRAND JURY NOVEMBER 19, 1998 VOLUME VI APPEARANCES: For the People: DAVID J. IREY Deputy District Attorney Reported by: JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG, CSR No. 4643 ---oOo--- 1606 1 WITNESS INDEX Page 2 GARY SHERRRILL Examination by Mr. Irey 1611 3 RON HALL 4 Examination by Mr. Irey 1638 1665 5 JOYCE CAIN 6 Examination by Mr. Irey 1651 7 JENNY HARTNETT Examination by Mr. Irey 1657 8 MIKE SWEENEY 9 Examination by Mr. Irey 1681 10 LANCE HAYDEN Examination by Mr. Irey 1688 11 BILL SKIDMORE 12 Examination by Mr. Irey 1717 13 WILLIAM E. WOLIN Examination by Mr. Irey 1729 14 ---oOo--- 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1607 1 E X H I B I T S 2 Exhibit No. Description Ref. 3 5 Blow-up of check 1781 4 20 Photograph 1789 5 21 Photograph 1703 6 22 Photograph 1703 7 23 Photograph 1703 8 24 Photograph 1703 9 25 Photograph 1754 10 26 Building Permit File 1766 11 29 Dept. Public Works Building Permit 1764 12 32 Underground Tank Storage Removal 1768 13 Permit 14 33 Photograph 1704 15 37 Photograph 1677 16 38 Photograph 1677 17 39 Photograph 1677 18 57 Copy of check 1673 19 76 Sherrill Videotape 1642 20 77 Wolin Training Payroll Costs 1816 21 78 Owner/Builder and Receipt 1786 22 ---oOo--- 23 24 25 1608 1 JACKSON, CALIF., THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 1998, 9:00 A.M. 2 BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF AMADOR COUNTY 3 ---oOo--- 4 THE FOREPERSON: I guess we can go on record at 5 this time. 6 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 7 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Here. 8 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) Here. 9 (Redacted.) 10 GRAND JUROR NASIATKA: Here. 11 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 12 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Here. 13 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 14 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Here. 15 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 16 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Here. 17 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 18 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXXXX: Here. 19 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 20 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Here. 21 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 22 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Here. 23 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 24 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Here. 25 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 1609 1 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Here. 2 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 3 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Here. 4 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 5 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Here. 6 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 7 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Here. 8 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 9 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Here. 10 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 11 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Here. 12 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 13 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Here. 14 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 15 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Here. 16 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 17 THE FOREPERSON: Here. 18 MR. IREY: Earlier this week, I mentioned that 19 because there were spousal and marital privileges, our 20 office had informed Ms. Miriam Mason and Ms. June Womack 21 that their attendance would not be required. 22 On your witness list are the names Mark 23 Sherrill and Connie Sherrill. Earlier today, we made a 24 determination that Ms. Connie Sherrill had the same 25 issues as far as marital privilege because of the fact 1610 1 that earlier we thought that Mark Sherrill and Connie 2 Sherrill both would be witnesses. I guess that would be 3 the best way to put it. 4 At this time, we would like you to 5 seriously look at the facts related to Mark Sherrill and 6 his involvement in this case. Mark Sherrill is no longer 7 a witness, and we would like you to consider him as a 8 potential defendant. 9 Our first witness today will be Ron Hall. 10 Just kidding. 11 Our first witness today will be Gary 12 Sherrill. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Sherrill, if you would 14 remain standing, please, and raise your right hand. 15 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 16 you shall give in this -- excuse me. I will start again. 17 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 18 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 19 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 20 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 21 THE WITNESS: I do. 22 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. The record will show 23 Mr. Sherrill answered in the affirmative. 24 (TIME NOTED: 9:02 A.M.) 25 ---oOo--- 1611 1 GARY SHERRILL 2 Called as a witness herein by the People, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 4 and testified as follows: 5 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. IREY: 8 Q Mr. Sherrill, you can have a seat, please. 9 If you could spell your last name for the 10 court reporter? 11 A S-H-E-R-R-I-L-L. 12 Q Mr. Sherrill, my name is David Irey. 13 These are the Members of the Grand Jury. We are going to 14 ask questions today regarding your knowledge of the gas 15 station demolition and the demolition debris from that. 16 My first question is, if you could, give 17 us a short narrative of everything you know about that 18 particular activity. 19 A My wife and I come down the hill one late 20 afternoon or sometime and we both said: The service 21 station is gone. That's about as much as I know about 22 it. 23 Q Okay. And are you related to Mark 24 Sherrill? 25 A My son, yes. 1612 1 Q And are you either a paid or volunteer 2 fireman? 3 A Volunteer fireman. I am paid partially. 4 Q For City? The County? City of Sutter 5 Creek? 6 A Sutter Creek Fire District. 7 Q And how long have you been -- 8 A A fireman? 9 Q -- a fireman? 10 A 1962, 1963, probably. 11 Q Are you familiar with the Uniform Fire 12 Code? 13 A Well, a little bit. Not much. 14 Q So you don't do the actual Fire Code 15 inspections? 16 A No. 17 Q You are mostly fire suppression person? 18 A Yes. 19 Q So you haven't had any background or 20 training in hazardous materials and hazardous waste? 21 A No. 22 Q So you haven't had any training in 23 underground storage tanks and hazards behind that? 24 A Well, being I was fire chief for probably 25 20 years, Sutter Creek Fire District, and being an 1613 1 excavating contractor, I thought it was always a conflict 2 of interest to be wound up between the two in any way. 3 Q Between going underground and doing -- 4 A We had an administrator that takes care of 5 the inspections and all that for the Fire Department. 6 Q And your son Mark, is he also a volunteer? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Have you, as the fire chief or after that, 9 sent him to any classes on hazardous materials or 10 hazardous waste? 11 A No. 12 Q Do you know if he teaches the safety 13 classes for the -- is it called Sutter Creek Fire 14 District? Is that the proper name? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Do you know if he teaches the safety 17 classes for Sutter Creek Fire District? 18 A No. 19 Q You don't know one way or the other? 20 A I don't think he does, no. 21 Q So you drove past the gas station and it 22 had already been demolished? 23 A Yeah. Gee, service station is gone. 24 Q Have you had any conversations with your 25 son? 1614 1 A Not really, no. 2 Q Even for five minutes? 3 A Oh, you know, I mean, we might have said, 4 What happened to the service station? Or what -- you 5 know. I mean, you know. 6 Q And -- 7 A Nothing, you know. We -- we don't 8 communicate too much business-wise as far as, you know, I 9 have always been a loner kind of in my business, and he 10 has got his business and, you know. 11 Q You have a contracting business and some 12 type of furniture refinishing or something along those 13 lines? 14 A Furniture refinishing? 15 Q Do you have more than one business? 16 A My -- my mother owns an antique shop. 17 Q Maybe that's what I heard. Okay. 18 Mr. Sherrill, have you had any 19 conversation with Connie Sherrill about the underground 20 storage tank removal? 21 A Well, just that since all this has 22 started, she is awfully shook up about the whole affair. 23 Q And what specifically, if you recall, were 24 the issues that she was shook up about? 25 A Well, the main thing was the search 1615 1 warrant into her house. 2 Q She didn't feel she was treated 3 appropriately? 4 A She just -- I think it was very uncalled 5 for, I mean. 6 Q Based on? 7 A I don't -- would you like an officer 8 knocking at your door and coming in? I mean, I think it 9 violates a whole lot of our standards, you know. 10 Q Is that where the business records for 11 Sherrill Trucking are kept? 12 A That I have no idea. I have no idea where 13 Mark keeps his records or anything. I don't know, you 14 know. 15 Q So if that was where the business records 16 were kept, that might be different because that's like 17 knocking on the door of a business, correct? 18 A No. 19 Q No? It not the -- 20 A Not my feelings, it's not. 21 Q Okay. Is Mark's business -- Mark's house 22 zoned commercial? Is that where businesses are supposed 23 to operate out of? Houses? I don't know. 24 A Well, you know, my house is my business, 25 too. 1616 1 Q That's where your business records are? 2 A Yes. But at the same time, it's still my 3 house. 4 Q Okay. So she is shook up about the search 5 warrant. 6 Was she shook up about Mark lying to 7 authorities at all, if Mark lied to authorities? 8 A If -- I don't know if Mark lied to 9 authorities or what, you know. 10 Q Do you think it's appropriate to lie to 11 authorities? 12 A Oh, it's never appropriate to lie, I mean. 13 Q Did Mark ever tell you that he knew what 14 happened to the gas tank? 15 A We have never discussed it. 16 Q Did Mark tell you a week and a half ago, 17 he told the District Attorney's Office what happened to 18 the gas tank? 19 A No. 20 Q Did Mark ever tell you what happened to 21 the contaminated soil? 22 A (Witness shakes head.) 23 Q Did Mark ever tell you that he hauled the 24 contaminated soil to the property he owns on Highway 88? 25 A No. 1617 1 Q Okay. Did Mark ever tell you he took the 2 dump debris to the old mill? 3 A What? 4 Q The old mill. The dump debris from 505 5 Sutter. Did he tell you he took it to Georgia Pacific 6 and dumped it? 7 A No. 8 Q So Mark hasn't told you any of the 9 specific facts of what happened that weekend, just he was 10 unhappy with the way he was treated? 11 A For the search warrant, yes. 12 Q So up to that point, was Mark unhappy with 13 the way he had been treated? 14 A We haven't discussed it. I don't know. 15 Q Okay. Have you talked to Bob Womack about 16 the facts? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know Bob Womack? 19 A Just I would know him if he walked in the 20 door. 21 Q Okay. Have you talked to Nick Hernandez 22 about the facts? 23 A I don't think I know a Nick Hernandez. 24 Q Have you talked to Bill Wolin Senior or 25 Billy Wolin about the facts? 1618 1 A No. 2 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 3 Sherrill. If any Members of the Grand Jury have a 4 question at this time, I would be happy to ask it. 5 Mr. Sherrill, since we didn't have a 6 chance to meet before this, basically, I ask questions 7 for a few minutes, then the Grand Jurors can write down 8 questions. I read it into the record. And if you could 9 respond. 10 After they ask their questions, then the 11 Grand Jury Foreman will read you an admonition and we 12 will be done. I appreciate your time. 13 Are there any questions from any of the 14 Grand Jurors? 15 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 16 MR. IREY: Okay. 17 Q Is it common for a person to reach the 18 rank of fire chief and not know all of the fire codes? 19 A Well, especially in the small departments 20 up here, yes. 21 Q A lot of the fire codes are related to 22 commercial buildings and things along those lines; is 23 that your understanding? 24 A Yes, a lot. I was instrumental in getting 25 the Fire Code passed in Sutter Creek. But during my time 1619 1 as chief, we never even adopted the Fire Code until, you 2 know, for quite some time. 3 Q Until recently? 4 A Well, I can't say recently. My memory 5 isn't that good. But while I was fire chief, I did get 6 the Board of Commissioners to adopt the Fire Code. 7 Q So the Board of Commissioners for Sutter 8 Creek Fire District adopted the Uniform Fire Code? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And that includes flammable, hazardous, 11 chemical requirements, correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q But you don't have any specific knowledge 14 of whether or not you are supposed to handle underground 15 storage tanks a certain way? 16 A At the time the Fire Code was done in 17 Sutter Creek, that -- if I remember right, I don't think 18 that was even included in the Fire Code. 19 Q You think it was late '70s or mid '70s? 20 A Probably early '70s. 21 Q Looks like we are writing down another 22 question here. 23 How old is Mark? 24 A Hmmm... Born in 1963. 25 Q And does he own the business or do you own 1620 1 part of the business? 2 A He owns the business. 3 Q Do you know what the name of the business 4 is? 5 A Mark's? 6 Q Yeah. 7 A Truthfully, no. 8 Q I have heard -- if I can refresh your 9 recollection, I have heard Mark Sherrill Trucking, 10 Sherrill Trucking and Mark Sherrill. Any of those names 11 or all of those names? 12 A Could be all of those names, I mean. 13 Q Do you know if Mark carries Workmen's 14 Comp. insurance? 15 A I have no idea. 16 Q Do you and your son own the property where 17 your son dumped the debris? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you own any properties with your son? 20 A No. 21 Q Do you own part of his business? 22 A (Witness shakes head.) 23 Q Are you talking -- are you telling us, as 24 a fire safety member, you have no knowledge of the code 25 on removal of gasoline storage tanks? 1621 1 A Well, I know you are supposed to have 2 permits to remove 'em. But as far as being knowledgeable 3 on the Code, itself, no. I haven't been chief for six, 4 seven, eight years now, I guess. I don't know. 5 Something like that. And we have an administrator who is 6 also a full-time fireman in Sacramento, Dominic Marino. 7 He is the expert on it. And we let him do his thing. In 8 Sutter Creek, it's not -- doesn't happen very often, you 9 know. 10 Q Have you ever helped remove an underground 11 storage tank? 12 A No. 13 Q Is it possible that, being a firefighter, 14 you have never dealt with any Haz Mat situations? 15 A Very little. But, you know, when you get 16 a fuel spill on a car wreck or something like that, you 17 know. 18 Q Have you ever had any training in Haz Mat? 19 A Very little. 20 Q Do you know if training is required by the 21 Fire Code? 22 A Training required by the Fire Code? 23 Q Do you know if training is required by the 24 Fire Code for fire volunteers? 25 A I don't think it's required by the Fire 1622 1 Code. I could be wrong. 2 Q When was the last time you spoke with your 3 son Mark Sherrill regarding the underground storage tank 4 issue and the Grand Jury process? 5 A I haven't seen Mark in -- I don't know. 6 We might have had Sunday -- breakfast a couple of Sundays 7 ago and it came up. I mean. 8 Q Okay. 9 A I mean. 10 Q What came up a couple of Sundays ago? 11 A The meeting. This was the search warrant. 12 Q Did Mark tell you somewhere between two 13 weeks ago and three weeks ago he was trying to dissuade 14 witnesses from testifying truthfully to the Grand Jury? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know it's a crime? 17 A I imagine it would be. 18 Q Would it surprise you if Mark specifically 19 will told Nick Hernandez to try not to pass on too much 20 information to this Grand Jury? Would that surprise you? 21 A Oh, it would, yes. 22 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 23 Sherrill. Again, if there are any questions of any Grand 24 Jurors, I would be happy to ask them. 25 Thank you for your time, Mr. Sherrill. 1623 1 The Foreman has an admonition. 2 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Sherrill, you are admonished 3 not to reveal to any person except as directed by the 4 Court what questions were asked or what responses were 5 given or any other matters concerning the nature or 6 subject of the Grand Jury's investigation that you 7 learned during your appearance before the Grand Jury. 8 This admonition continues unless and until 9 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 10 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 11 punishable as contempt of Court. 12 This does not prevent you from discussing 13 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 14 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 15 Grand Jury. 16 Sir, if you could date and sign this same 17 admonition I just read to you. 18 THE WITNESS: Today is the 17th? 19 THE FOREPERSON: 19th. 20 Thank you very much. You are free to go. 21 GRAND JUROR: Mr. Irey this morning -- earlier 22 Mr. Irey told us Mark Sherrill is going to be a defendant 23 now, correct? 24 MR. IREY: The District Attorney's Office would 25 like you to consider adding Mark Sherrill's name as a 1624 1 defendant. 2 GRAND JUROR: When I was chosen for the Grand 3 Jury, Judge Harlan asked to review the witness list to 4 see if we knew anybody on the list. And Mr. Sherrill and 5 Connie and Mark Sherrill and another person, I forget -- 6 I really don't know fully from being in school. But the 7 other few people I mentioned, I do know. And in my 8 opinion, they were witnesses at the time, not the -- not 9 my decision on making them a defendant. 10 At this time, I probably will ask to talk 11 to the Judge about removing myself from the Grand Jury at 12 this time. 13 MR. IREY: Okay. Hold that thought. 14 GRAND JUROR: I was going to do the same thing. 15 I am in the same position. I did not realize that Mark 16 and Connie -- I knew they were involved, but it was 17 supposed to be witness thing. And I am having a hard 18 time right now, too. I don't know how to handle it. So 19 I just wanted to... 20 MR. IREY: At this time, I will try to find the 21 Presiding Judge and we will make a determination on what 22 the next step is based on -- go ahead. 23 GRAND JUROR: I was going to ask, will we be 24 finding out why that change was made? Will we know any 25 specifics? Or can you answer that? 1625 1 MR. IREY: You have heard a series of 2 hypotheticals over the last few days. Those 3 hypotheticals were based on information we had received. 4 The finalization of the paperwork that went along with 5 those hypotheticals did not occur. 6 That probably doesn't answer your 7 question. So there will be a tape played and that 8 probably will explain it. 9 I will try to find Judge Harlan. And 10 that's the best I can say. Thanks. 11 THE FOREPERSON: Off the record, please. 12 (Whereupon, pages 1626-1637 were reported and transcribed, but are under separate 13 confidential cover.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1638 1 THE FOREPERSON: We are back on the record. 2 MR. IREY: Mr. Ron Hall. 3 THE FOREPERSON: Since we swore him in earlier, 4 do I have to do it again? Or should I remind him? 5 MR. IREY: You can remind him he is still under 6 oath as the Foreman. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Hall, I remind you, you are 8 still under oath from the previous oath I read you last 9 week. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 11 (TIME NOTED: 9:45 A.M.) 12 ---oOo--- 13 RON HALL 14 Recalled as a witness herein by the People, 15 having been previously duly sworn to tell the truth, 16 resumed the stand and was examined and testified as 17 follows: 18 EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. IREY. 20 Q Welcome back, Mr. Hall. 21 If you could briefly describe to the 22 Members of the Grand Jury any contact you had with Mr. 23 Mark Sherrill just after the District Attorney's Office 24 was referred an underground storage tank file, please. 25 A I believe the first contact took place a 1639 1 couple days after I was given the case. I drove to his 2 yard, which is located at Highway 49 and Jackson Gate 3 Road, directly behind the -- I think they call it the 4 Buffalo Trading Post. 5 There I met with Mark Sherrill and asked 6 him about his involvement with the removal of the tank 7 and what he had known about it. 8 Q Okay. And did he state to you what was 9 his participation and what he knew about it? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And if you recall? 12 A Yes. He stated that he wasn't there for 13 the tank removal portion of the demolition; that he had 14 left prior to that because it was raining and it was 15 getting late and all he had done was haul debris to the 16 dumps. 17 And he stated that the next time he had 18 come back, there was just a hole in the ground and they 19 were bringing gravel back to fill it. 20 Q Okay. And after that contact, did you 21 have other occasions to meet with Mr. Mark Sherrill? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. Could you briefly describe some of 24 these meetings? If you recall? I can help. 25 Did you meet with him on September 2nd, 1640 1 1998? 2 A I am trying to run through my mind here. 3 Q Okay. I can start again. 4 You didn't know you were going to testify 5 today; is that correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And you didn't review any of your large 8 volume of documents before you came to court today; is 9 that correct? 10 A No, I did not. 11 Q And when you have a case that involves 12 such a large set of records, is it your normal standard 13 operating procedures to go ahead and review your 14 documents? 15 A Yes. I believe September 2nd, though, was 16 the meeting we had at the county administration building 17 with Mark and the other folks involved. 18 Q Okay. Sometime after that meeting, did 19 you also -- were you watching an underground storage 20 tank, some more type of demolition being removed in 21 downtown Jackson? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did Mr. Mark Sherrill approach you? 24 A Yes, he did. 25 Q What did Mr. Mark Sherrill say at that 1641 1 point? 2 A He asked me how we could take care of 3 this? Could we still meet? 4 Q Okay. And did you eventually meet with 5 Mr. Mark Sherrill? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And when you met with Mr. Mark Sherrill, 8 was that videotaped? 9 A Yes, it was. 10 Q And did you bring that videotape with you 11 today? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And the purpose of that meeting was to 14 resolve all the issues related to Mark Sherrill's 15 involvement. Is that your understanding? 16 A Yes, that's correct. 17 Q And that interview lasted a substantial 18 period of time? 19 A I believe we were in there just under two 20 hours. 21 Q And were numerous issues discussed? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did Mr. Sherrill make any admissions as to 24 earlier inconsistent statements that he had made to you? 25 A Yes. 1642 1 Q Did he admit any what you consider to be 2 violations of the law? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did he tell you who hauled the underground 5 storage tank? 6 A Yes, he did. 7 Q Did he tell you who loaded the underground 8 storage tank? 9 A Yes, he did. 10 Q Did he tell you that he purposely chose 11 not to answer your questions when you first met him? 12 A Yes, he did. 13 Q That has been marked Grand Jury exhibit 14 No. 76. Mr. Hall, is this the tape you brought to court 15 today? 16 A Yes, this is the one. 17 Q On the cover of this, front label, what 18 did you write? 19 A I wrote on here the -- okay. The date, 20 11/9/98. Interview OF Mark Sherrill at D.A.'s Office. 21 Approximately 10:00 a.m. 22 Q On that date, do you believe that Mark 23 Sherrill was being much more truthful with you than he 24 had been in the past? 25 A Yes. 1643 1 Q He gave you specific information regarding 2 many of the details. Is that your understanding? 3 A Yes. 4 Q He gave you information related to where 5 the piping, soil and tank went? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Do you feel that he was telling you 8 everything he knew? 9 A I believe there was a few things. 10 Q But, for the most part, we were able to 11 reach an agreement? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And those negotiations are part of this 14 tape, correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q But it would be difficult to cut the 17 negotiations away from the interview; is that your 18 understanding? 19 A Yes. 20 Q So because there was back and forth 21 between Mr. Sherrill and his attorney, yourself and 22 myself during this interview process, correct? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q But it basically goes from before the tank 25 came out of the ground until pretty much the day of the 1644 1 interview. Is that your understanding? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q At this time, Mr. Hall, if you could play 4 the tape for the Members of the Grand Jury. Pause it 5 when you feel necessary. But if it can play pretty much 6 through, that might be helpful for continuity. 7 Mr. Hall, up until this morning at just 8 after 8:00, was it your understanding that Mr. Sherrill 9 was going to be a witness in this case? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And then for reasons that you can't 12 describe to the Members of the Grand Jury, it was 13 determined that Mr. Sherrill was not going to testify? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And that's why you weren't prepared to 16 testify today, because -- 17 A That's correct. 18 Q -- you had thought Mr. Sherrill and Mrs. 19 Sherrill were going to testify this morning? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q Okay. Did you have a chance to talk with 22 Mrs. Sherrill this morning? 23 A Yes, I did. 24 Q And at that point, when you spoke with 25 Mrs. Sherrill, did you mention to her whether or not she 1645 1 needed to testify today? 2 A Yes, I did. 3 Q Did you give her the reason why she did 4 not need to testify? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And what was that reason? 7 A I told her that we had received 8 information that her husband had chosen to back away from 9 his deal and that we would not call her at this time. 10 Q And was that her understanding this 11 morning? 12 A No, that was not her understanding. 13 Q So it appeared to be a surprise to her 14 that her husband wasn't going to testify this morning? 15 A Yes. She stated to me that she thought he 16 hadn't decided. 17 Q When he left? 18 A When he left the house this morning. 19 Q But when he left your office a week ago, 20 had he decided? 21 A Yes, he had. 22 Q Okay. Could you play the tape, 23 please. 24 Here you go, Mr. Hall. 25 Mr. Hall, could you turn it up, please. 1646 1 Mr. Hall, could you pause it. 2 Who is in the room at this point, Mr. 3 Hall? 4 A Right now, that's Mark Sherrill on the 5 right, his attorney Dave Thomas on the left. Out of view 6 to the left of attorney Dave Thomas is Russ Moore of the 7 Highway Patrol. He is in the Environmental Haz Mat Task 8 Force. I am seated to the left of Russ Moore. And David 9 Irey is seated to my right. 10 Q Thank you. 11 Mr. Hall, could you pause that, please. 12 Could the people in the back hear those answers? 13 THE FOREPERSON: There was an answer that 14 happened when he paused it. There was an answer. 15 Q BY MR. IREY: Could you rewind and turn it 16 up just a little bit more. I am sorry for the people in 17 the front. No. A little further, please. 18 Mr. Hall, could you pause it. Mr. Hall, 19 would you explain to the Grand Jurors why at some points 20 in this tape it will be almost impossible to hear the 21 voices. 22 A The noise of the video, the one we 23 seized -- you are hearing the excavator noise coming from 24 the video that we are showing him. So unfortunately, it 25 bled through onto our video. And the room there is a 1647 1 good ten feet tall. It's kind of echoey in there. 2 Q But the majority of the video doesn't have 3 all that background noise. Is that your understanding? 4 A Yeah. As soon as -- this video is almost 5 over. Then that noise will quit. 6 Q Thank you. 7 Would you could pause it, Ron -- Mr. Hall. 8 A Yeah. 9 Q At that point in the video along 49/88, 10 was there another Sherrill truck that drove by? 11 A Yes. You can see in the video a truck 12 driving southbound past the station site. And that is 13 because we would drive up Hoffman and come down around 14 Rex. That was Mark arriving with his second ten-wheel 15 dump truck. 16 Q That ten-wheel dump truck did not have a 17 trailer behind it? 18 A No, it did not. 19 Q Go ahead, please. 20 Could you rewind that, Mr. Hall. 21 Mr. Hall, is that the first time you heard 22 that Bob Womack drove the truck? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Ever? 25 A Ever. 1648 1 Q That was 11/9 at 10:39 in the morning? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Ten days ago? 4 A Yes. He said -- that's Larry. What I am 5 doing there now is showing him. There is a real quick 6 clip on the video. 7 Q On the second video? 8 A On the second video, the one we seized at 9 the search warrant, where June Womack turns to two people 10 in a car, but focuses in on one face and says, Look at 11 the camera for your mother. That is Larry Womack, who is 12 the driver. And it's been determined that the passenger 13 next to him is Tony Hernandez, his friend. 14 Q Go ahead, Mr. Hall. 15 Could you pause it, please, Mr. Hall. 16 A Mm-hmm. 17 MR. IREY: At this point, Mr. Foreman and the 18 Members of the Grand Jury, I think the tape goes probably 19 40 more minutes or 30 more minutes. If we could take a 20 morning break? 21 There are two witnesses that the Grand 22 Jurors wanted to hear from. Who are they, Mr. Hall? 23 THE WITNESS: That would be the two waitresses 24 presses from Mel's, Joyce Cain and -- the other name 25 escapes me. 1649 1 GRAND JUROR: Hartnett? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 MR. IREY: I think they will be five minutes 4 each. We can watch the rest of it. 5 Q Before we go, Mr. Hall, earlier in the 6 tape, you heard him say the gate was always locked? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q And Mr. Sherrill said he didn't want 9 people up there, correct? 10 A That is correct. 11 Q And then Mr. Sherrill said he thought that 12 the truck was going to the Bossi Ranch, correct? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q Didn't he just say that Womack opened up 15 the gate and drove up there? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q So if it was locked, he would have to have 18 Sherrill's combination or key? 19 A That's correct. 20 MR. IREY: Is it a good time to take a break? 21 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. Okay. Five after. That 22 gives about 12 minutes by the time I read the first 23 admonishment for the day and all. 24 MR. IREY: Okay. Mr. Hall, you have to hear your 25 admonishment. 1650 1 Probably say the same to Mr. Hall. 2 THE FOREPERSON: We are going hold the same 3 admonishment we had you sign at your first testimony. 4 That still holds. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 6 THE FOREPERSON: Then again, I will read my 7 admonishment to the Grand Jury. First one for the day, 8 and I will remind you up to the very last one. 9 Okay. The Grand Jurors are admonished 10 that they are not to form or express any opinions about 11 this case or discuss it among themselves until the Grand 12 Jury receives the case for deliberation. In addition, no 13 inspection of evidence should be conducted without the 14 permission of the Foreperson and on the advice of the 15 prosecuting attorney. 16 A violation of this rule could result in 17 a charge of contempt against a Grand Juror who would 18 investigated or view any matters with regard to this case 19 without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 20 And we stand in recess until five after 21 11:00. 22 (Recess taken from 10:52 to 11:05 a.m.) 23 THE FOREPERSON: May we come to order, please. 24 Jan, we are on the record. 25 MR. IREY: Joyce Cain. 1651 1 THE FOREPERSON: Ms. Cain, if you could remain 2 standing, please, and raise your right hand. 3 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 4 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 5 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 6 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 8 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 9 (TIME NOTED: 11:04 A.M.) 10 ---oOo--- 11 JOYCE CAIN 12 Called as a witness herein by the People, 13 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 14 and testified as follows: 15 16 EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. IREY: 18 Q Ms. Cain, if possible, if you could answer 19 my questions -- I was going to do that -- so the people 20 all the way in the back can hear you? 21 A Okay. 22 Q Could you spell your last name for the 23 court reporter. 24 A C-A-I-N. Cain. 25 Q Ms. Cain, do you know why you received 1652 1 your subpoena? 2 A Not really. 3 Q Okay. We are going to ask a couple 4 questions regarding information you may have learned 5 while working -- where do you work? 6 A Mel's drive-in. 7 Q How long have you worked there? 8 A Nineteen years. 9 Q Okay. If you remember one way or the 10 other, have you heard any conversation at Mel's drive-in 11 earlier this year regarding Mr. Bob Womack attempting to 12 give away an underground storage tank? 13 A No, I didn't. 14 Q Do you know if you were working on 15 Saturday, May 2nd? 16 A Yes, I was. 17 Q And would you have been serving the table 18 Mr. Bob Womack was at? 19 A No, I didn't. 20 Q At some point around 6:00 a.m. you moved 21 to the counter. Is that my understanding? 22 A Yes, I did. 23 Q Did you happen to see if Mr. Womack was 24 going table to table to table and overhear his 25 conversation? 1653 1 A No, I didn't. 2 Q At no time on May 2nd or May 3rd did you 3 hear Mr. Womack ask anybody if they wanted an underground 4 storage tank? 5 A No, I didn't. 6 Q Several months later in early September of 7 this year, did you see any reward posted at Mel's Diner 8 for the return of an underground storage tank? 9 A No, I didn't. 10 Q Did you post a reward sign? 11 A No, I didn't. 12 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Ms. 13 Cain. 14 However, at this point, because we have 15 not net, any Member of the Grand Jury can write down a 16 question. I will ask it read into the record. If you 17 could respond, I would appreciate it. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 MR. IREY: Thanks. 20 Q You have heard the underground storage 21 tank discussed at Mel's; is that correct? 22 A Yes, I have. 23 Q After the fact? 24 A After the fact. 25 Q So before the gas station was demoed, you 1654 1 didn't hear anything? 2 A No. I didn't. 3 Q Apparently I asked the question the Grand 4 Juror was going to ask. 5 Is there any information about the 6 underground storage tank, where it went, who drove it, 7 that you think would help the Grand Jurors make their 8 decision that you have personal knowledge of? 9 A No, I don't. 10 MR. IREY: Okay. At this time, the Grand Jury 11 Foreman has what's called an admonition to read to you, 12 Ms. Cain. 13 GRAND JUROR: There is a question. 14 Q BY MR. IREY: Have you heard anything said 15 about the demolition or the gas tank that morning? 16 A Have I what? 17 Q Have you heard any discussion regarding 18 the underground storage tank that was removed that 19 morning? 20 A That morning, no, I didn't. 21 Q But subsequent to that, you have heard 22 discussions? 23 A Through the newspaper and maybe 24 overhearing a conversation walking by, but nothing 25 specific. 1655 1 Q So no one said, Joyce, guess what I know? 2 A No, no. 3 Q And did you interject and say, Poor Bob, 4 or anything like that? 5 A No, I didn't. 6 Q Do you know Bob Womack? 7 A Yes, I do. 8 Q Do you know Bill Wolin? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q And his son Billy? 11 A Not really. 12 Q Okay. And Mark Sherrill? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q Have you ever had a discussion with Mark 15 Sherrill regarding the underground storage tank? 16 A No, I haven't. 17 MR. IREY: At this time, I think, the 18 admonition. 19 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 20 to any person except as directed by the Court what 21 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 22 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 23 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 24 appearance before the Grand Jury. 25 This admonition continues unless and until 1656 1 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 2 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 3 punishable as contempt of court. 4 This does not prevent you from discussing 5 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 6 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 7 Grand Jury. 8 And if I could get you to date and sign 9 exactly what I just read to you. 10 THE WITNESS: Today is the 19th? 11 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, it is. 12 Thank you very much. 13 MR. IREY: Thank you. 14 Jenny Hartnett. 15 THE FOREPERSON: Ms. Hartnett, if you could 16 remain standing, please, and raise your right hand. 17 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 18 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 19 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 20 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 21 THE WITNESS: I do. 22 23 (TIME NOTED: 11:10 A.M.) 24 ---oOo--- 25 1657 1 JENNY HARTNETT 2 Called as a witness herein by the People, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 4 and testified as follows: 5 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. IREY: 8 Q Ms. Hartnett, if you could spell your last 9 name for the court reporter and Members of the Grand Jury. 10 A H-A-R-T-N-E-T- T. 11 Q How do you pronounce that? 12 A Hartnett. 13 Q Okay. We will just have a few questions 14 for you. 15 First question is, do you know whether or 16 not you were working on Saturday, May 2nd, 1998? 17 A Yes, I was. 18 Q In what area? Where were you working? 19 A I was the waitress in the dining room 20 there. We have two sides, side one and side two. I was 21 side one. 22 Q Is that the one closer to Mokelumne Hill? 23 A It's divided down the middle. I am 24 closer to the window. Side two is the back of the 25 building. 1658 1 Q What time did your shift start that day? 2 A 6:00. 3 Q Do you remember if you served a large 4 table with Bob Womack and Bill Wolin at it that day? 5 A I got there at 6:00. And half the 6 people -- there was a large table, six or eight, I 7 think. And some of them had already ordered. When I got 8 there, that was my first table. And I waited on a few of 9 them. Some of them had already ordered their breakfast. 10 The other girl went back to cook, so I 11 took over serving coffee, taking away dirty dishes. I 12 finished being their waitress. 13 Q The other girl being whom? 14 A Joyce Cain. 15 Q How long have you worked at Mel's? 16 A Eight -- eight or nine years. 17 Q How do you remember that you were working 18 that day? 19 A I work every Saturday. I have for the 20 past probably three years, the exact same schedule. And 21 I -- I only take one week a year for vacation. And I am 22 always there. 23 Q How do you remember who you served on that 24 specific day? 25 A I don't remember everybody, but I know 1659 1 there was a big table. And I only knew a couple of 2 them. Bob Womack being one. And I know Mark Sherrill. 3 And those two were there. But I didn't know anybody else 4 personally. 5 Q Okay. Did you overhear any of their 6 discussions as the waitress that day, if you remember? 7 A Mmmm... Nothing specific. I knew they 8 were going to work, going to work somewhere. 9 Q Okay. Do you remember hearing any 10 discussions regarding the removal of an underground 11 storage tank? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you think you would remember if you had 14 heard the discussion of an underground storage tank? Do 15 you think you would remember whether or not you heard 16 that? 17 A Mmmm... Well, I don't -- I don't 18 really -- it's kind of fast-paced, really busy. So I 19 don't really -- don't really listen. 20 Q Did you hear Mr. Womack offer anybody at 21 the table the underground storage tank that day? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you see Mr. Womack get up and walk 24 around table to table to table that day? 25 A Mmmm... I wouldn't say table to table. I 1660 1 know a few of them moved to a separate table in the back 2 of the room. 3 Q With his wife and others? 4 A I don't know -- like I said, I only knew 5 a couple. There was a couple other people that went back 6 there with him. 7 Q So you saw him go back to one other table? 8 A Right. 9 Q With other people from the table he was 10 with, the original table? 11 A I -- I want to say yes, because they were 12 coming in and out, you know, different times. 13 Q Did you serve him at that second table 14 also? 15 A No. Nobody ate. I offered them coffee, 16 but nobody ate back there. 17 Q Okay. Did you hear him at that point when 18 he moved to a different table offer the underground 19 storage tank to anybody? 20 A No. 21 Q At any time that day, did you hear him 22 offer the underground storage tank to anybody? 23 A No. 24 Q Between May and September, did you talk 25 to anybody regarding the unlawful removal of an 1661 1 underground storage tank, including Mr. Womack, Mark 2 Sherrill or anybody? 3 A No. 4 Q Okay. In September of this year, did you 5 see any signs posted offering a reward for the return of 6 an underground storage tank at Mel's? 7 A No, I never saw any. 8 Q Did you see it anywhere else in town? 9 A No. Not myself, no. 10 MR. IREY: Okay. At this point, the Members of 11 the Grand Jury can ask you questions. What they do is 12 they submit them to me in writing. I read them into the 13 record. And then, if you could give the same response -- 14 similar responses to what you have given me, that would 15 be great. 16 After those questions are asked, then the 17 Grand Jury Foreman will read you what is called an 18 admonition about what you overheard today and be done. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 Q BY MR. IREY: Can you remember who the 21 people were that got up and went to another table? 22 A No. I just know Bob Womack. I only know 23 two of 'em. I didn't really know anybody else. But I 24 know it was Bob Womack, but I can't remember who else was 25 with him. 1662 1 Q Male or female? Or you don't remember? 2 A To the best of my recollection, it was all 3 males. I don't remember seeing any females. I could -- 4 it was a long time ago, though. 5 Q Several hundred customers ago? 6 A (Laughing.) 7 Q Have you read the local paper -- have you 8 read the local paper and what have you read regarding 9 underground storage tank? 10 A Mmmm... The first article I read was in 11 yesterday's paper, about where Mister -- Mr. Womack was 12 talking about this was unfair. And then there was 13 something from some of the City Council, City Council 14 lady. But that's the first article I read in the paper 15 just about. Like they should get an apology or 16 something. That's the first article I read. And I read 17 it yesterday, kind of bits and pieces while I was at 18 work. So I didn't read the whole thing. 19 Q Do you have or hear conversations with 20 your customers -- do you hear customers' conversations 21 and do you make conversation with your customers? 22 A About this? Or just about anything? 23 Q I think it's a generic question. 24 A Oh, yeah. I mean, I -- generally, it's 25 really pretty busy. I don't know if you have ever been 1663 1 in there. It's really pretty busy. Some of them I know 2 socially outside of work that I will talk to. 3 Q Okay. Did you make conversation with Mr. 4 Womack? Or do you normally make conversations with Mr. 5 Womack? 6 A No. I didn't -- I knew him just as a 7 server, customer. So I never really talked socially with 8 him. 9 Q Did you know at the time the reason that 10 all of those people were there besides just for eating 11 breakfast? 12 A I knew they were going working somewhere. 13 That's all I knew. Because Mr. Womack picked up the tag 14 for everybody's breakfast because they were going to go 15 work somewhere. 16 Q He said, I will take that. I am -- 17 A Right. He had me add them all together. 18 Q Do you know any of the people personally 19 that were there that morning? 20 A Mmmm... Well, I know Mark Sherrill, I 21 mean, basically, through work. I knew his sister when I 22 was younger. I wouldn't say we are very, very good 23 friends. But he is probably one of my customers that I 24 know. You know, I talk about his wife and his daughter 25 and just silly little things. 1664 1 Q His sister used to work there? 2 A No. I knew his sister when I was 3 younger. That's how I knew him maybe before I even 4 worked there. 5 Q Okay. Looks like there is going to be 6 another question. 7 Has Mr. Mark Sherrill talked to you about 8 this case? 9 A Never. I have never discussed it with 10 him. Like I said, when I do talk to him, it's about his 11 wife or his daughter. 12 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions of the 13 Grand Jurors? 14 At this point, the Foreman has an 15 admonition. Thank you for coming in on such short 16 notice. 17 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 18 to any person except as directed by the Court what 19 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 20 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 21 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 22 appearance before the Grand Jury. 23 This admonition continues and unless and 24 until such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury's 25 proceeding is made public. Violation of this admonition 1665 1 is punishable as contempt of court. 2 This does not prevent you from discussing 3 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 4 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 5 Grand Jury. 6 And I need you to date and sign the exact 7 same admonition I just read to you. 8 Thank you very much. 9 MR. IREY: Thank you. 10 Did Mr. Gillman tell you guys to wear your 11 Mel's sweatshirts? 12 Mr. Hall again. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Hall, at this time, I will 14 remind you, you are still under oath. 15 16 (TIME NOTED: 9:31 A.M.) 17 ---oOo--- 18 RON HALL 19 Recalled as a witness herein by the People, 20 having been previously duly sworn to tell the truth, 21 resumed the stand and was examined and testified as 22 follows: 23 EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. IREY: 25 (Videotape played.) 1666 1 Q Could you pause it, please. About 45 2 seconds ago, didn't he say that morning him and Nick went 3 there; and just now he said that afternoon they went 4 there. Mr. Hall? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Go ahead, please. 7 Could you rewind the last 30 seconds, Mr. 8 Hall. 9 A Mm-hmm. 10 Q Could you pause it please, Mr. Hall. 11 Does that sound to you as if, when Mr. 12 Sherrill picked up his truck the first day on Sunday that 13 the tank was still on the trailer? 14 A That's what it sounds like. 15 Q Okay. Could you pause it. 16 So at that point, does it sound as if Mr. 17 Womack knew that someone was coming by to pick up the 18 tank? 19 A That's what it sounded like. 20 Q Or did it sound like he was going to take 21 it to the dump? 22 A Yeah, it sounded like he hadn't made up 23 his mind or he was going to take it to the dump. 24 Q Okay. Thank you. 25 Just think how tired Mr. Hall is now. 1667 1 Mr. Hall, could you rewind that, please. 2 Could you listen carefully to this 20 3 seconds and describe to the Grand Jurors if you think 4 that Mark is telling me what Bob asked Billy. 5 Pause, please. What did that sound like 6 you to, Mr. Hall? 7 A It sounded like he was reciting what he 8 was told to say. 9 Q Does it sound as if I was wrong in my 10 question about the location of the tank, and a better 11 question that maybe I should have asked Mr. Sherrill 12 would have been who hauled the tank? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q That came just from Mr. Sherrill, correct? 15 A Straight from his mouth. 16 Q Thank you. 17 Could you rewind that, Mr. Hall. That's 18 probably far enough, please. 19 Could you replay that, Mr. Hall. That's 20 probably far enough. 21 A The tape is never restarted after 22 that. 23 GRAND JUROR: Was the time correct? 24 MR. IREY: I will ask Mr. Holland. 25 THE WITNESS: The time and date on the tape is 1668 1 correct. 2 GRAND JUROR: Because I have a different time. 3 When the tape started, I wrote the time. And then you 4 said that the tape -- the video started at a certain 5 different time than I wrote down. 6 MR. IREY: I can ask you a series of questions or 7 we could write them down. 8 Q Mr. Hall, you calibrated the camera that 9 morning? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And then when this video started, it was 12 the correct time and you announced that. And those 13 matched up, correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q When it ended, it looked like the video 16 was one minute one way or the other? 17 A Yes. I believe I was looking at my watch 18 on the time, not actually what was in the view finder. 19 Q But it was Monday morning a week ago 20 between 9:00 a.m. and noon? 21 A Yes. We stopped, I believe, close to a 22 quarter of twelve or ten to 12:00 that day. 23 MR. IREY: Mr. Hall will testify again. We are 24 just putting him in the gaps we don't have other 25 witnesses subpoenaed. Hopefully, whoever reads this 1669 1 transcript will understand. But he will introduce a lot 2 of the evidence right before we read -- the jury 3 instructions are read. 4 However, we do have six or seven minutes 5 now. We could ask Mr. Hall a few questions. Because 6 again, we didn't prepare for his testimony this morning 7 and it's getting close to the 12:30 lunch break. 8 Q Why was the tape not restarted? 9 A At the end of this portion? 10 Q Sure. 11 A We were just talking -- I believe it was 12 what we call off camera. It's just what -- I guess what 13 attorneys do, talking about different -- 14 Q He wasn't interviewed about the facts of 15 the case any -- 16 A No. The interview was basically concluded 17 on my part after that. 18 Q And have we interviewed him subsequent to 19 that? 20 A No. 21 Q However, we did receive permission from 22 his counsel and went out to his site and photographed a 23 vehicle, correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And the vehicle we photographed was the 1670 1 truck that Mr. Sherrill pointed out in the video, 2 correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q And the trailer was the one that Mr. 5 Sherrill told us that he had hauled the tank -- that his 6 truck had hauled the tank with? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q And again, and Monday a week ago was the 9 first time we had ever heard who actually hauled the tank 10 on Saturday? 11 A That's the first time. 12 Q At that point, we had no idea where the 13 tank went on Saturday night, correct? 14 A Correct. 15 Q Did Sherrill ever mention water taken to 16 the dump on Sunday -- if Nick Hernandez told us that he 17 thought he hauled the water on Sunday, did Sherrill ever 18 mention that there was water taken to the dump on Sunday? 19 A Not to me. 20 Q Is Sherrill's property on the way to the 21 Bossi Ranch? 22 A Yes, it is. 23 Q How far is it from the Bossi Ranch? 24 A Approximately three miles. 25 Q Did Sherrill say that Womack said 1671 1 something about the chain flopping at Sherrill's property 2 as he went in with the tank, if you recall? 3 A Yes. I believe Sherrill stated that he 4 believed Womack told me he thought a binder or chain was 5 flopping and that was his reasoning for pulling into the 6 Sherrill property instead. 7 Q What day was the search done at Sherrill's 8 home? 9 A October 30th, a Friday. 10 Q If you know, why is the CHP officer 11 present during Sherrill's interview? 12 A The CHP officer is part of our 13 investigative team. He was assisting in the writing of 14 the search warrant and also in the serving of the search 15 warrant. 16 Q To your knowledge, is he a ten-plus year 17 veteran of hazardous waste, hazardous material cases? 18 A Yes, he is. 19 Q He teaches throughout the State of 20 California? 21 A Yes, he does. 22 Q He has been trained by Federal law 23 enforcement training in Glenco, Georgia? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q If you can tell us why -- sorry, I can't 1672 1 ask that question. I will read it into the record after 2 Mr. Hall leaves. Can't ask the second one either. 3 Do you believe Mr. Sherrill's story about 4 Womack giving the tank to a stranger sometime on Sunday, 5 Suspect No. 3? 6 A I don't believe there is a stranger in 7 this at all. 8 Q Why or why not? 9 A Mmmm... I just believe everybody is known 10 here that is involved in this. And whoever got the tank 11 is known to the people involved. 12 Q You have spent several hundred hours 13 investigating this? 14 A Yes. 15 Q If the first time you met Mark Sherrill in 16 his yard, he had told us where the tank went, the soil 17 went and the piping went, would it have made your job a 18 lot easier this year? 19 A Absolutely. 20 Q Have you ever talked with anyone from 21 Georgia Pacific about accepting the contaminated soil? 22 A No. 23 MR. IREY: Again, Mr. Hall will actually go 24 through a lot of the evidence, these boxes we have been 25 carrying in and not able to leave and put that 1673 1 information in front of the Grand Jurors sometime. Maybe 2 later this afternoon. I am trying to give him tomorrow 3 off or Monday. Don't everybody be sad you have to work 4 and Mr. Hall doesn't. 5 So at this point, if it's appropriate? 6 THE FOREPERSON: We have one more. 7 Q BY MR. IREY: Do you believe the tank was 8 hidden in Amador County for several months before it 9 turned up in Lodi? Please explain. 10 A I do believe it was hidden in Amador 11 County. The only reason I would say that is because Bob 12 met the vehicle down in Lodi and he didn't, to my 13 knowledge, pay the full reward to anybody. I believe 14 that tank was right here within the county. 15 Q And you have looked at his phone records 16 from September. And were there many phone calls between 17 the meeting on September 2nd and the tank showing up on 18 September 7th or 8th, other than to Thorpe long 19 distance? Did you check some of those numbers? 20 A I checked some of them out. Most of them 21 were local. 22 Q And Grand Jury Exhibit No. 57. You 23 recognize this blown-up check? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And at the bottom left-hand corner, who 1674 1 does it say the reward was paid to? 2 A Robert for tank reward. 3 Q On Sunday, is the timing right on the 4 return of equipment to Sherrill yard and Robert Womack 5 leaving the job, for Doug Mondani to have hauled off the 6 tank? 7 A There was no way I could really verify the 8 timing. 9 Q But the -- if you know, is it your 10 understanding that the excavator picked up -- was picked 11 up by the low-bed around noon or 1:00 on Sunday? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And if the tank was missing, according to 14 Mr. Sherrill's testimony, sometime late that morning, 15 then there was a window for someone to come by between -- 16 I will start this question again. 17 If Mondani had nothing else to do that 18 morning, he could have possibly hauled the tank? 19 A Yes, it's possible. 20 Q But you don't have any additional 21 information other than hearsay, correct? 22 A All I have is hearsay at this time. 23 Q Did you ask Mr. Sherrill how Mr. Womack 24 was able to go through the combination locked gate if he 25 hadn't intended to drop the tank off at Sherrill's 1675 1 property? 2 A Mmmm... No. Because he -- I believe at 3 the time he said a lot of people had the combination. 4 And then he wasn't sure that he hadn't left that gate 5 open that evening because they were moving in and out. 6 Q When you first interviewed Mark Sherrill 7 at his yard, he told you he didn't know what happened to 8 the tank, correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q He told you it was loaded on the truck of 11 some unknown person? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Just as Mr. Womack had been telling people 14 after the Owens Illinois story failed? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Were you present at the meeting on 9/2/98 17 at the D.A.'s Office -- I mean at the county 18 administration building? 19 A Yes, I was at the county administration 20 building. 21 Q You weren't present when Mr. Womack said, 22 If it's more than $500, tell them to F-off? 23 A No. I was outside of the room at this 24 time. 25 Q Were you present when the meeting began 1676 1 after Ms. Sherrill and Mr. Flynn left? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And Mr. Sherrill said, That was pretty 4 harsh, to me, correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q You remember that? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And you remember me saying, Because people 9 are lying to me? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And Mr. Sherrill looked me in the eye and 12 said, I have never lied to you. 13 A That's what he said. 14 Q Do you think Mr. Sherrill was lying to us? 15 A Yes, I do. 16 MR. IREY: Any other questions? Okay. 17 Q But he was shooting pretty straight a week 18 ago Monday? 19 A At the beginning, I think so, yeah. 20 Q And then he tailed off after a phone call 21 or so? 22 A He was dancing pretty good there at the 23 end. 24 Q Does that sometimes happen in these types 25 of interviews? 1677 1 A Yes. 2 Q But at the end, we still had a deal? 3 A Yes. 4 Q If you know, how could the tank have been 5 unloaded from the trailer? 6 A I examined the tank down in Lodi. And on 7 the underside of that tank, I observed very jagged 8 scratches, which actually scathed the outer plastic skin 9 on that tank. It appeared to me as if the tank had 10 either been slid across the sharp surface or trailer or 11 possibly slid off a trailer. There was white paint 12 markings on the black plastic coating which indicated 13 whatever it slid against was painted white. 14 Q So that part of Sherrill's story made a 15 lot of sense? 16 A Yeah, the part he said it was either slid 17 off or rolled over made sense. 18 Q That's Grand Jury Exhibits 38, 39 and 37? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q But the scrape marks are shown best on 39? 21 A On 39. There is actual tears in the outer 22 coating of the tank, which wouldn't have occurred from 23 lifting it out. It either had to occur when the tank 24 slid against an abrasive object. 25 Q Because if you picked a tank up and sat it 1678 1 on a trailer and immediately chained it down, it wouldn't 2 have all the scrape marks on it that were going two, 3 three and four feet, correct? 4 A That's correct. There were actually 5 indentations in some of these scratches also. 6 Q These pictures, 37, 38 and 39 from the 7 Lodi Thorpe Oil? 8 A That's correct. 9 MR. IREY: Questions? At this time -- 10 GRAND JUROR: Wait. 11 MR. IREY: He will be back, but okay. 12 I think this afternoon we have a pretty 13 tight schedule of witnesses. He may be back late 14 afternoon. He is going to stay. Because of the 15 witnesses that we have been adding to the list, we are 16 trying to get everybody in, in as few days as possible. 17 Q Do you believe Womack could have unloaded 18 and loaded the tank on Sunday without help? 19 A With the piece of equipment described in 20 the yard, yes. 21 Q As long as he didn't care about the 22 condition of the tank after he had done it? 23 A Correct. 24 Q Were pipes still on the tank when you saw 25 it in Lodi? 1679 1 A Just a few broken ends were still 2 inserted. Other than that, most of them had actually 3 been unscrewed. 4 Q And you could actually see that in a 5 couple of your photographs? 6 A Yes, you can. 7 Q That they had been removed, as opposed to 8 snapped off? 9 A Yeah. In Exhibit No. 38, you see all the 10 way across the tank. And there is actually one jagged 11 end and one that still has a plug installed in it. But 12 the rest of the pipes appear to have been completely 13 unscrewed. 14 MR. IREY: Are other people writing? 15 Okay. Mr. Hall, thank you. Please be 16 available this afternoon. I think we have a couple 17 witnesses scheduled for 1:30. 18 Is that your understanding? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 MR. IREY: And then Mr. Bill Wolin scheduled for 21 this afternoon also. Is that your understanding? 22 THE WITNESS: That's correct. I believe 23 scheduled today is Mr. Sweeney and also Mr. Skidmore, and 24 Bill Wolin Senior. 25 THE FOREPERSON: At this time, I will remind you 1680 1 that you are still under the same admonition I gave to 2 you your first time. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. And at this time, I will 5 remind my fellow Jurors of the same admonition. 6 MR. IREY: I have to read one thing into the 7 record. Two questions I did not ask. 8 If you can tell us, why has Sherrill 9 backed out of his deal? 10 And then second question: Will he still 11 have a chance to testify? 12 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. So I remind you again of 13 the same admonition I read this morning before the first 14 recess. So we will stand in recess until 1:30. 15 And Jan, we are off the record. 16 (Luncheon recess taken from 12:35 to 1:32 p.m.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1681 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 ---oOo--- 3 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. We will come to order. 4 We will go on record. All nineteen are here. 5 MR. IREY: It's Mr. Mike Sweeney, Grand Juror 6 Witness No. 3. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Sweeney, if you will remain 8 standing and raise your right hand. 9 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 10 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 11 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 12 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 13 THE WITNESS: I do. 14 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 15 16 (TIME NOTED: 1:33 P.M.) 17 ---oOo--- 18 MIKE SWEENEY 19 Called as a witness herein by the People, 20 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 21 and testified as follows: 22 23 EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. IREY: 25 Q Mr. Sweeney, we just met 45 seconds ago or 1682 1 so? 2 A Yes. 3 Q We didn't really meet. I am David Irey. 4 This is the Grand Jury. 5 If you could answer questions audibly, the 6 court reporter is taken taking them down, and loudly 7 enough the person all the way in the back who, for some 8 reason, wanted or made that determination he wanted 9 everyone's voice to carry 31 feet, that would be helpful. 10 A Does the microphone work? Is this loud 11 enough? 12 Q Would you spell your last name for the 13 record. 14 A S-W-E-E-N-E-Y. 15 Q Do you know why you received a subpoena 16 here today? 17 A No. 18 Q Besides Billy Wolin, who else have you 19 talked to regarding Grand Jury testimony in the last 20 couple of weeks? 21 A Grand Jury testimony? Nobody. 22 Q How to testify in front of the Grand 23 Jury. 24 A My attorneys. 25 Q Mr. Wolin hypothetically may have told us 1683 1 that you told him just to answer yes or no to the 2 questions. 3 I think the Grand Jury would like to know, 4 did you speak with Billy Wolin about the facts of the 5 underground storage tank pull? 6 A No, I did not speak to him about the 7 facts. 8 Q Just could you basically let them know 9 what -- what your discussion was. 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. 12 A My discussion was, I have been -- in the 13 past, I have testified in different trials. And I gave 14 him the benefit of my experience, where I suggested to 15 him that he tell the truth, look the jury in the eye, 16 and answer the questions as succinctly and as briefly as 17 he possibly can. 18 Q That's pretty much -- 19 A Yes. 20 Q -- the extent of the conversation? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Two minutes, one day? 23 A No. We spent about 20, 30 minutes on the 24 phone. 25 Q You went back and forth. For instance, he 1684 1 says, What if they ask me what happened to the tank? 2 Then you told him, Just tell the truth. 3 A No. 4 Q How did it go? 5 A Essentially, what I said to him was, is 6 that -- as I just repeated to you. And I tried to coach 7 him, as I have been coached by several attorneys in 8 talking, just make sure he knows and understands that he 9 has to tell the truth, has to look you in the eyes. And 10 we might have gone back and forth and did a couple of 11 hypotheticals, but I strictly kept away from the issues 12 as far as this case is concerned. I don't know anything 13 about it. 14 Q So he just came to you because he or his 15 father knew you had testified in the past? Or what was 16 the -- what precipitated this phone call, if you know? 17 A Oh, I know. I made the phone call to 18 him. I just was coming in out of town. And they are 19 friends of mine. And it just happened to be 20 unfortunately for me that I gave him a call. 21 And he mentioned that he was going to be 22 testifying before a Grand Jury. And I asked him if he 23 had talked to an attorney. He said no. And then I gave 24 him the advice or the benefit of my experience. 25 Q So this was several weeks ago before they 1685 1 hired Dave Weiner; is that your understanding? 2 A No, I don't think it was several weeks 3 ago. It was the day before he testified. 4 Q Okay. So at that point, he didn't tell 5 you that he had an attorney already? 6 A No. 7 Q So David Weiner from El Dorado County? 8 A No. 9 Q You asked him? You said, Have you talked 10 to an attorney? And he said no? 11 A To the best of the my recollection, he 12 said, no, he hadn't really talked to one. 13 Q So the specific facts behind this case you 14 have never discussed with -- 15 A No. 16 Q -- Billy Wolin? 17 A No. 18 Q Robert Womack? 19 A I don't know Robert Womack. 20 Q Mark Sherrill? 21 A I do know Mark. I haven't talked to him. 22 Q Bill Senior, which is William E. Wolin? 23 A I met him a couple of times in the past, 24 not -- nothing. 25 Q So you know Bill Junior? 1686 1 A Yes. He is a friend. 2 Q And your current occupation is a surface 3 mine developer? 4 A Well, I am the president of Sutter Gold 5 Mining Company. 6 Q Okay. And is that how you know Billy 7 Wolin? Or do you know him some other way? 8 A No. Actually, I know him through his wife 9 Tina is where I met him. 10 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of this 11 witness. If any Member of the Grand Jury has any 12 witnesses -- questions on -- not any witnesses -- I would 13 be happy to ask those of Mr. Sweeney. 14 Otherwise, we appreciate your time. We 15 try to get you in and out. I knew it would probably be 16 a short series of questions. At this time, any Member of 17 the Grand Jury can write down a question, and then I 18 would ask it of you. 19 You may be the only witness that this has 20 happened to. 21 Read the admonition? 22 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: That's it? 24 THE FOREPERSON: Just one second, if you could. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. 1687 1 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 2 to any person except as directed by the Court what 3 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 4 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 5 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 6 appearance before the Grand Jury. 7 This admonition continues unless and until 8 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 9 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 10 punishable as contempt of court. 11 This does not prevent you from discussing 12 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 13 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 14 Grand Jury. 15 And if I could get you to date and sign 16 this same admonition I just read to you? 17 Thank you very much. 18 THE WITNESS: Do I get a copy of that, please? 19 THE FOREPERSON: He is requesting a copy. 20 MR. IREY: Sure. Sometimes it takes me a couple 21 minutes to figure out what the best way is. 22 THE WITNESS: Can you just give me a copy of that 23 so I know what I promised to do? I wouldn't want to 24 forget it. 25 MR. IREY: Thank you. 1688 1 Off the record. 2 (Discussion held off the record.) 3 MR. IREY: Mr. Hayden will be our next witness. 4 He will appreciate your generosity. Lance Hayden. 5 THE FOREPERSON: If you would remain standing 6 and raise your right hand. 7 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 8 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 9 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 10 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 12 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 13 (TIME NOTED: 1:41 P.M.) 14 ---oOo--- 15 LANCE HAYDEN 16 Called as a witness herein by the People, 17 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 18 and testified as follows: 19 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. IREY: 22 Q Mr. Hayden, could you spell your last 23 name for the court reporter, please. 24 A H-A-Y-D-E-N. 25 Q Who is your current employer? 1689 1 A I currently am an Investigator for the 2 Amador County District Attorney's Office. 3 Q And prior to that, were you also in law 4 enforcement? 5 A Yes. I was a police officer for eleven 6 years with the Lodi Police Department. 7 Q And could you briefly describe your 8 training and experience before you became a Lodi Police 9 Officer, during your time as a Lodi Police Officer and 10 your current assignment. 11 A Yes, I originally started with the 12 Sacramento County Sheriff's Department. I went to their 13 basic Academy. I was hired as Sacramento County Deputy 14 Sheriff for a year and a half. I then transferred to the 15 City of Lodi -- excuse me -- and was a police officer 16 there for eleven years. 17 During my eleven and a half years 18 approximately with the City of Lodi, I was a detective 19 for six years, primarily responsible for investigating 20 gang-related crimes, investigated everything from 21 vandalism to homicide in that six and a half or six years 22 roughly. 23 I then came to Amador County D.A.'s Office 24 as an investigator and have been assigned to the criminal 25 division since I arrived in July of this year. 1690 1 Q In Lodi, you also did white collar crime? 2 A Yes, I did. 3 Q Very complex case involving a -- was it 4 copyright infringement? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Could you briefly describe the complexity 7 of that case, please. 8 A Yes. I assisted in the investigation in 9 which a company out of the State of New York was 10 supplying California video stores with pirated 11 videotapes. 12 During that investigation, we wrote dozens 13 of search warrants and executed search warrants on bank 14 records, phone records, assisted in the seizure of funds 15 and also assisted in the investigation in the State of 16 New York. 17 Q But you have not to this point 18 participated in any search warrants regarding the 19 unlawful underground storage tank pull, correct? 20 A No. I have participated in no search 21 warrants as a D.A. investigator with Amador County. 22 Q But you have participated on the periphery 23 of the investigations, is that true? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And some of those things were serving 1691 1 subpoenas? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And taking photographs? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And you participated in a September 2nd, 6 1998 general meeting with many of the individuals who 7 participated in that tank pull. Is that correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Could you briefly describe how that 10 meeting began. Or prior to the meeting beginning, were 11 you in a conference room? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. Could you describe basically who 14 was there, what happened, what was discussed, and 15 specifically that one comment made by Mr. Womack. 16 A Yes. All the parties involved met at the 17 county administration building. Prior to the meeting 18 actually starting, I was in a conference room with 19 several of the defendants in this case, as well as 20 Investigator Hall and Mr. Irey. 21 Prior to the meeting starting, Mr. Irey 22 and Mr. Hall left the room to discuss some things about 23 the case. And I remained in the room with many of the 24 defendants in this case. 25 During the time that I was in the room, 1692 1 the defendants in this case were discussing the case 2 openly. And some of the comments made by Mr. Robert 3 Womack were of interest to me and I took note of them. 4 He had mentioned the fact that he had 5 contacted an attorney and he was advised -- or it was his 6 opinion that, if the County or Mr. Irey asked for 7 anything more than a $500 fine, that they could -- they 8 could go fuck themselves, basically is what he said. 9 Q Okay. And did the meeting get any better 10 after that? 11 A No. It got worse before it got better. 12 Q And that was a little pre-meeting 13 conversation between Ms. Sherrill, Mr. Flynn and myself? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And then the meeting began? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And then were you present when part of it 18 was tape-recorded, mostly Mr. Womack's story, correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Before that, were you present in the room? 21 A I was present in the room for the entire 22 portion of the meeting except for at the end of the 23 meeting when the three of us, yourself, myself and 24 Investigator Hall, left the room while they could discuss 25 their options in this case with their own counsel. 1693 1 Q So were you present when they were 2 informed anything they discussed in that meeting was 3 pretty much open to be used at trial? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q I walked them through statutory schemes? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Told them maximum, minimum fines? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Maximum, minimum jail times? 10 A Yes. 11 Q But what was the thing I kept coming back 12 to about the importance of finding the missing soil and 13 tanks? Was that pretty much one of the strongest themes 14 of that meeting? 15 A The whole basis of the meeting, to my 16 understanding, was to resolve this case as quickly, as 17 easily as possible. And without the return of the tank, 18 that that was -- that was not possible. That we had to 19 have the tank returned in a safe and legal manner before 20 we could do anything further with this case. 21 Q Because of the possibility of the tank 22 being used elsewhere unpermitted in Amador County or 23 elsewhere in California? 24 A Absolutely. 25 Q And the risk of contamination of other 1694 1 sources of groundwater or surface water? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And we walked them through that, correct? 4 A Yes, we did. 5 Q And they listened for a while, correct? 6 A Yes, they did. 7 Q And then at some point before that 8 conversation -- after Ms. Connie Sherrill left, Mr. 9 Sherrill was a little upset, correct? 10 A Yes, he was. 11 Q He said, Why are you so hard? 12 Do you remember any of that? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q Do you remember whether or not I informed 15 him, It's because people are tired of being lied to? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Do you remember him looking me in the eye 18 and telling me he hadn't lied to us? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 Q Then Mr. Womack told his version of the 21 story, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And at some point, the three of us left? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And then George Ryan acted as a go 1695 1 between? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q During those conversations with George 4 Ryan, what was your gut feeling about whether or not Mr. 5 Womack knew where the tank was? 6 A It was fairly obvious that he knew where 7 the tank was. 8 Q Because we weren't negotiating the 9 $125,000 number, were we? 10 A No. 11 Q We were stuck on the thirty-seven five 12 number the whole night, correct? 13 A Once the offer or the comment was made 14 that the fine would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 $37,500 if the tank was recovered, that was the last 16 time, to my recollection, that the $125,000 figure was 17 ever mentioned. 18 Q So the rest of the night was discussing 19 whether or not the person who had the tank would be 20 prosecuted and what kind of training would be required? 21 A Yes. 22 Q How many hours of training per person? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Were you present when Mr. Womack said, I 25 will take all the misdemeanors, because I am the one that 1696 1 did all of this? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Because I offered one misdemeanor to each 4 of the four defendants, correct? 5 A I believe -- I believe Mr. Womack asked if 6 he could take all four misdemeanors, because he was the 7 one who was in charge of the project. 8 Q Originally, I made an offer contingent on 9 misdemeanor for Sherrill, misdemeanor for Mason, 10 misdemeanor for Womack and a misdemeanor for -- 11 A Wolin. 12 Q -- Wolin. Correct? 13 A Yes, that's correct. 14 Q And then Womack said, I will take 15 everybody's? 16 A Yes. 17 Q If we can reach a deal? 18 A That's right. 19 Q But he was insistent on showing us those 20 permits. Do you remember that? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And they were only City permits? 23 A Correct. 24 Q Okay. But then when we were outside and 25 George Ryan is coming back and forth, the $125,000 number 1697 1 was never mentioned again, correct? 2 A Not to my knowledge. 3 Q Then we go back and in and they want 4 assurances on the record that, if someone else had the 5 tank, a fifth person, that they wouldn't be prosecuted, 6 correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And I walked them through, if it wasn't 9 one of the four of them, that that additional person 10 wouldn't be prosecuted. Because the most important thing 11 to us at that time was to get the tank back? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q And then Mr. Womack said, I think I will 14 put an advertisement in the paper. Or something along 15 those lines? 16 A He made mention of offering a reward 17 through the newspaper for the return of the tank. 18 Q This was 8:00 or 9:00 that Thursday night 19 when we finally ended? 20 A I believe so, yes. 21 Q We started at 5:00? 22 A Mm-hmm. 23 Q Say yes or no for the court reporter, 24 please. 25 A Yes. Sorry. 1698 1 Q So then that meeting ended and come back 2 to work. You are off Mondays? 3 A Yes. 4 Q The tank had been found pretty much by the 5 time you came back to work the following week? 6 A Within that following week, yes. 7 Q And at that point, you knew that there was 8 a contingency offer that basically lasted through that 9 week, correct? 10 A I believe it was through the 10th. 11 Q Tenth of September? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And after that, we weren't able to reach 14 an agreement. Is that your understanding? 15 A That's my understanding. 16 Q And so then we began to investigate a 17 little further. Is that your understanding? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And as part of that investigation -- that 20 was mostly Mr. Ron Hall, correct? 21 A Yeah. Mr. Hall was in charge of the 22 investigation, as far as the investigators were 23 concerned. 24 Q Okay. And at some point, a Grand Jury was 25 scheduled? 1699 1 A Yes. 2 Q And did you serve any subpoenas for the 3 Grand Jury? 4 A Several. 5 Q And did you serve a subpoena on Mr. Paul, 6 P-A-U-L? 7 A No, I did not. 8 Q Did you serve one on Mr. Brown? 9 A I don't believe so. 10 Q Okay. Did you serve one on Mr. John 11 Henney? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q Who is Mr. John Henney, as far as you 14 know? 15 A He is a truckdriver for Mark Sherrill. 16 Q Okay. And where did you serve Mr. Henney? 17 A At Mr. Sherrill's yard on Jackson Gate 18 Road. 19 Q Could you describe -- I think they say -- 20 in living color your meeting with Mr. Henney when you 21 served him with a subpoena. 22 A Yes. I drove into the yard. It was at 23 the end of the workday. 24 Mr. Sherrill, along with, I believe, one 25 or two other truck drivers were standing near the front 1700 1 of the business. 2 I asked Mr. Sherrill if Mr. Henney was 3 present. Mr. Sherrill pointed to a truck that was 4 running and a driver that was sitting in it, and 5 basically gestured that Mr. Henney was in the truck. 6 I walked over to the truck and 7 explained -- or started to explain to Mr. Henney the 8 reason for my presence and the fact I needed to serve him 9 with a Grand Jury subpoena. He didn't respond to any of 10 my questions or any of my statements. 11 I handed him the subpoena. He turned 12 around, walked away from me, and quite plainly said, Now 13 I have something to wipe my ass with, and crumpled the 14 subpoena up. 15 Q That's pretty much your only contact with 16 Mr. Henney until when? 17 A I believe a week or two later I went out 18 to Mr. Sherrill's property on Highway 88 to take some 19 photographs. Mr. Henney was present at that time, as 20 well. 21 Q Did it go better for you and Mr. Henney at 22 that time? 23 A Mr. Henney was fairly quiet at that point. 24 Q If you know the date, when did you go out 25 to Mr. Sherrill's property and take pictures? 1701 1 A I believe that was on the 16th of this 2 month. 3 Q That would be this week. Was it this week 4 or last week? 5 A Oh, I'm sorry. 6 Q If you know? 7 A It was on a Wednesday that I came into 8 work on a holiday, when the building was closed. 9 Q Okay. 10 A That would be Veterans Day, I believe. 11 Q The 11th? 12 A Yeah, I guess so. 13 Q And that was based on a conversation you 14 had with Mr. Hall and myself about how Mr. Sherrill was 15 going to allow us to take pictures? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. And who told you how to get to the 18 property? Or did you just figure it out? 19 A I made contact with Mr. Sherrill over the 20 telephone. 21 Q By pager? And then he called you back? 22 A Yes, I paged him. He called me back. He 23 told me when the truck would be in the area and asked me 24 to meet him at a property that he owned on Highway 88 25 just east of the Jackson city limits sign on Highway 88. 1702 1 Q So he gave you consent? 2 A He gave me directions. He said the gates 3 would be open. Just drive on in. 4 Q You drove on in? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Was Mr. Sherrill there? 7 A Yes, he was. 8 Q What was Mr. Sherrill doing when you 9 arrived? 10 A He was driving a bobcat loading a set of 11 doubles with asphalt grindings. 12 Q And who was driving that vehicle? 13 A Mr. Henney was operating the truck that 14 was being loaded. 15 Q Did Mr. Sherrill signal to you to -- 16 A Yeah. I walked up to Mr. Sherrill as he 17 was in the bobcat, and he pointed to a ten-wheel dump 18 truck that was hooked up to a flatbed trailer. And I 19 asked him if that was the truck and trailer used for the 20 tank removal. And he said yes. 21 I went over and photographed that truck 22 and trailer. 23 Q So he pointed to a truck and trailer. You 24 asked him a question. He responded yes. 25 A Yes. 1703 1 Q This is Grand Jury Exhibit 21. Is this 2 the photograph you took a week ago Wednesday? 3 A Yes, it is. 4 Q One of the photos? 5 A Yes. 6 Q That's the truck and trailer he pointed 7 to? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Grand Jury Exhibit 22. 10 A That's the same truck and trailer. 11 Q That's a picture from the back end? 12 A It shows the license plate of the 13 trailer. 14 Q Did you also take pictures of the vacant 15 parking lot next to Roland Womack's building? 16 A Yeah, the lot where the station was 17 removed. 18 Q And Grand Jury Exhibit 23 is a photo you 19 took? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Same date? 22 A Same date. 23 Q 24? 24 A Same picture from a different angle of the 25 same lot and taken on the same date and time. 1704 1 Q Grand Jury Exhibit 33. 2 A Yeah, that's a close-up picture of the cab 3 of the truck pulling the trailer. 4 Q At Mark Sherrill's? 5 A Yes, at his piece of property on Highway 6 88. 7 Q On the same date? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. Did you have any conversation with 10 Mark Sherrill that day? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q And could you, as best as you can 13 recall -- and please, if you have any doubt, go back and 14 write it down after today -- what the entire conversation 15 of that phone call was. 16 A Well, it was a face-to-face conversation. 17 Q Face to face? 18 A After I had taken pictures of the truck, I 19 was walking back to my vehicle to leave. Mr. Sherrill 20 got off the bobcat, turned it off and walked towards me 21 as if he wanted to talk to me. 22 I returned and spoke to Mr. Sherrill and 23 Mr. Henney. Well, Mr. Henney was present. I didn't 24 speak to him directly. Just in general about the case. 25 I -- I had had the understanding that Mr. Sherrill was at 1705 1 that time cooperating with our investigation. And he was 2 speaking fairly freely, as was I, about the 3 investigation. 4 And I made the comment to him that, if 5 people hadn't lied about this case from the beginning 6 that it would not have gotten to where it had gotten; and 7 it was getting to where it was going to be more than 8 people could get themselves out of, you know, if the 9 truth weren't told. 10 And Mr. Sherrill made the comment to me 11 that Mr. Womack had lied to everybody involved. 12 Q Did you take that, including himself? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Did he say much of anything else? Or was 15 that pretty much -- 16 A That was pretty much the bulk of the 17 conversation. 18 Q Did he talk to you about where the tank 19 went after it was driven to his facility? Or did you 20 talk about the specifics of the case at all? 21 A I did ask him some questions regarding 22 what had taken place on Sunday. Because we had recently 23 learned that there was more activity at the site on 24 Sunday that we had not had previous information on. 25 And asked him where some of the soil that had been 1706 1 removed from the site had gone. And we discussed that. 2 Q And he told you some things about where 3 some of the soil had gone; is that correct? 4 A Yes. He said that several loads had gone 5 to the Georgia Pacific plant in Martell, the old Georgia 6 Pacific lumbermill. And he also stated that some of 7 the -- some of the materials had gone to the property 8 where we were standing at that time, and that they were 9 between 15 and 20 feet down under some compacted dirt. 10 He had done quite a bit of excavation 11 work there on his property, where he had flattened 12 approximately, oh, three quarters of an acre to an acre 13 where he told me he intended to build a shop to run his 14 business from. And you could see they had taken quite a 15 bit of the hillside off the hillside and flattened it out 16 so he would have a pad to build his building and park his 17 trucks. 18 And he had stated that several loads of 19 that dirt removed from the station were underneath all of 20 that dirt that he had pulled off the hillside. 21 Q Did he at any time tell you the specifics 22 of what Womack lied to him about? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you ask? 25 A I didn't ask. 1707 1 Q You weren't there to interrogate him? 2 A No. I wasn't there to question him about 3 the specifics of the case. I just talked to him about it 4 in general. 5 Q Just to take pictures of the truck that 6 Mr. Sherrill had the day before told -- or two days 7 before told Investigator Hall was the truck and trailer 8 that had hauled the tank? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And when you were there that day, he told 11 you that that was the truck and trailer? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did he tell you that Bob Womack hauled the 14 the tank? Or did that come up at all? 15 A That didn't come up in our conversation. 16 I had learned that earlier in the investigation from 17 Investigator Hall. 18 Q Okay. Did anybody else that you served a 19 subpoena to in this case make any interesting statements 20 that you think the Grand Jurors might want to know the 21 sum and substance of, if you remember? 22 A Most of the other -- or all of the other 23 people that I served in this case were generally 24 respectful of the subpoena. Some of them were surprised 25 that they had been served, feeling that they didn't have 1708 1 anything to add or weren't involved in the case. But for 2 the most part, everybody other than Mr. Henney was 3 respectful and polite. 4 Q You were present again on September 2nd, 5 correct, 1998, at the Begovich building? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you were present when Bob Womack told 8 that -- told us that he didn't know where the tank went 9 that night? 10 A Yes, I was. 11 MR. IREY: I have no more questions of 12 Investigator Hayden. If any Member of the Grand Jury has 13 any question or series of questions, I would be happy to 14 ask them at this time. 15 Q Did you take any other photos at any other 16 locations other than Sherrill's property and the 17 dentist's building? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you say that his attorney advised him, 20 if the D.A. asked for more than $500, to F -- a lot of 21 little insignias -- off? And name of attorney? 22 A Mmmm... The name Judith Demming came up 23 during the conversation he had prior to him making the 24 comment. I am assuming that's the attorney he was 25 referring to, had advised him regarding a $500 fine. I 1709 1 believe it was his expletive that he came up with for 2 what we could do if we had any more than $500. I don't 3 think that was her quote. 4 Q His, not hers? 5 A His, not hers, yes. 6 Q Were you taking notes on the meeting with 7 Mr. Womack and the D.A.'s Office? 8 A At the Begovich building? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A No. 11 Q So when you said earlier that you made a 12 note of it about Mr. Womack's statement, was that a 13 mental note? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Do you think it's funny that you are the 16 only one that hears all of these bad words? 17 A Mmmm... 18 Q You haven't been part of all the testimony 19 to date, so you wouldn't know why those chuckles were 20 happening. 21 A I don't find it unusual. 22 Q You heard what you heard? 23 A I heard what I heard. 24 Q From Bob Womack? 25 A Yes. 1710 1 Q You are not making that up? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you record the meeting? 4 A During the meeting, when Mr. Womack 5 decided to do a narrative for us as to what happened on 6 that day, Mr. Hall and Mr. Irey were concentrating on 7 what was being said, and I removed a tape recorder from 8 Mr. Hall's briefcase, put a tape in it and handed it to 9 Mr. Hall so the meeting could be recorded so we would 10 have some sort of documentation for what was being said 11 about what actually happened on that day. 12 So I don't know if I recorded it or Mr. 13 Hall recorded it, but I gave him a tape recorder so he 14 could do the recording. 15 Q After the admonitions that anything they 16 could say that was inconsistent -- 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. So to the best of your knowledge, 19 Mr. Hall has that tape? 20 A Yes. 21 Q You have tried to listen to parts of it to 22 try to help me out with a transcription, correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And it's difficult because the room was 25 probably as far as I am to you? 1711 1 A Yes. 2 Q 22, 23 feet? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So the tape recorder is next to Mr. Hall, 5 next to myself, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And Mr. Womack is about this distant? 8 A He is at the opposite end of the table, 9 sitting at the head of the table. 10 Q Without a microphone? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q As far as you know, Mr. Hall has the tape? 13 A Yes. 14 Q If the Grand Jurors wanted to hear it, 15 they could? 16 A They could hear it, yes. 17 Q Have you tape-recorded any other situation 18 in this case? And where are they? 19 A No. I have not tape-recorded anything 20 other than what we talked about at the Begovich building. 21 Q Not video or audio, correct? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you know if a subpoena was served on 24 Mr. Paul? 25 A I was told that a subpoena was served. I 1712 1 wasn't personally there when it was served. 2 Q When Mr. Womack said he would take all 3 four misdemeanor charges, would this be in the form of 4 fines? Please explain, if you know. 5 A I am not sure if the actual dollar figure 6 in fines had been discussed. But I am sure that when we 7 discussed the possibilities of misdemeanors as opposed to 8 other types of punishment, no jail time was discussed. 9 So I am assuming it was fines. 10 Q But it was training and classes and 11 clean-up? 12 A Training classes, OSHA classes, promising 13 not to become involved in any other types of hazardous 14 materials, illegal hauling, transportation, so forth, of 15 hazardous materials, that sort of thing. 16 Q Standard search conditions? 17 A Standard search conditions for hazardous 18 materials, waste, and implementation of the same. 19 Q Do you know who took the tank to Stockton 20 or Lodi to be turned in? 21 A It's my understanding that Mr. Womack was 22 present when the tank arrived in Lodi at Thorpe Oil. But 23 I don't have any personal knowledge as to who hauled the 24 tank from Mr. Sherrill's property to Stockton or who 25 hauled it from Stockton to Lodi. 1713 1 Q Or who hauled it from Mr. Sherrill's 2 property to somewhere else? 3 A Somewhere unknown. 4 Q You were present at the meeting on 5 September 2nd, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q On more than one occasion, did I inform 8 them it would be very unwise to move the tank again? 9 A I believe we told them on many occasions 10 that we were not interested in prosecuting anybody that 11 had the tank at that current time. And that for them to 12 move it again without getting proper permits would entail 13 the same violations that they had committed back in May. 14 Q Another illegal tank pull probably? 15 A Another illegal tank pull if it had been 16 buried again. Another illegal transportation of 17 hazardous materials. And they were not to move the tank 18 without permits. And they -- that we asked them 19 specifically to, if -- and the whole time we were working 20 under the premise that they didn't know where the tank 21 was. 22 And we told them on many occasions, If you 23 find the tank, tell the person that has it that they will 24 not be prosecuted, to leave it where it is and call Mr. 25 Hall, and he will take care of the tank. Leave it in 1714 1 place. Don't move it. 2 Q Because we wanted to know if there was 3 contamination existing below it and do tests and sample? 4 A Needed to know if it had been reburied 5 somewhere, filled it with fuel. 6 Q Filled it with pesticides? 7 A Filled it with something other than fuel. 8 Who knows? Somebody could have used it for a water tank, 9 as far as we know. 10 MR. IREY: Other questions? 11 Okay. Mr. Hayden, at this time, the Grand 12 Jury Foreman has an admonition for you. 13 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 14 to any person except as directed by the Court what 15 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 16 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 17 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 18 appearance before the Grand Jury. 19 This admonition continues unless and until 20 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 21 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 22 punishable as contempt of court. 23 This does not prevent you from discussing 24 the matter with your attorney, if you have an attorney 25 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 1715 1 Grand Jury. 2 And if I could get you to date and sign 3 the admonition, please. 4 Thank you very much. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 GRAND JUROR: I have one more question. 7 THE FOREPERSON: That happens. 8 Q BY MR. IREY: Is that your jacket? 9 A Yes, it is. 10 Q What time today did we tell you you might 11 be testifying today? 12 A Oh, like three minutes before we came back 13 here, 30 seconds before we came back here. 14 Q So what documents did you review before 15 you came here today? 16 A None. 17 Q Who presented the tank to the D.A. or to 18 Lodi, if you know? 19 A Who presented the tank to us? 20 Q If you know. 21 A I believe Jim Thorpe Oil had it when we 22 recovered it. It was in their yard in the City of Lodi. 23 Q Okay. Jim Thorpe Oil has been in business 24 in Lodi for a lot of years, if you know? 25 A For as long as I worked there. Since 1716 1 1987. 2 Q You live currently in south Sacramento 3 County? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Who drove the tank to Lodi? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q Do you wish you did? 8 A Yeah. Don't we all? 9 Q You would get, like, investigator of the 10 month award or something like that? 11 A Yeah, something like that. 12 GRAND JUROR: The year. 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 14 MR. IREY: Thank you, Mr. Hayden. 15 THE FOREPERSON: The same admonition applies. 16 Thank you. 17 MR. IREY: The next witness is Billy Skidmore. 18 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Skidmore, if you would 19 remain standing, please, and raise your right hand. 20 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 21 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 22 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 23 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 24 THE WITNESS: I do. 25 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 1717 1 (TIME NOTED: 2:11 P.M.) 2 ---oOo--- 3 BILLY SKIDMORE 4 Called as a witness herein by the People, 5 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 6 and testified as follows: 7 8 EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. IREY: 10 Q Mr. Skidmore, could you spell your last 11 name for court reporter, please. 12 A S-K-I-D-M-O-R-E. 13 Q We just met 40 seconds ago, correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Briefly, my name is David Irey. I am the 16 prosecutor in this case. These are the Members of the 17 Grand Jury. They are making a determination based on 18 facts presented to them regarding an issue. You are 19 probably familiar with that issue. 20 But at this point, the way the system 21 works is, I ask you a series of questions. When I think 22 I have come up with all the questions I have, then they 23 have an opportunity to write down a question. I read it 24 into the record. You answer that. Okay? 25 A (Witness nods head.) 1718 1 Q And again, if you can answer audibly for 2 the court reporter, that would be helpful. 3 A (Witness nods head.) Okay. 4 Q So tell us everything you know about the 5 underground storage tank. 6 A Nothing. 7 Q Nothing? 8 A (Witness shakes head.) 9 Q Not a word? 10 A (Witness shakes head.) I don't know 11 nothing about it. Other than it got taken out, what I 12 read in the papers. 13 Q So other than what you read in the paper, 14 how many people have you spoken with regarding that 15 underground storage tank? 16 A Well, mmmm... We have discussed it 17 with -- just about everybody I know in the county is 18 talking about it. So, you know. 19 Q Okay. And have you discussed it with any 20 Womacks? 21 A I don't recall any conversations about 22 it. It might have been one with somebody, but I don't 23 recall it. 24 Q Okay. 25 A If it was, it was probably just a joking 1719 1 conversation. I don't remember. 2 Q Just a joking? 3 A I don't remember. I really don't. 4 Q Did you talk to any Womack after you 5 received your subpoena? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you talk to a Sherrill? 8 A No. 9 Q A Wolin? 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. And you are testifying as 12 truthfully as you remember today? 13 A I don't recall any conversations about the 14 tank. That doesn't mean maybe something might have 15 happened at the plant. Somebody -- I work with one of 16 the Womacks at the plant. 17 Q Which one? 18 A Luke. 19 Q Okay. And how long have you worked at the 20 plant? 21 A Twenty-three years. 22 Q The plant being Owens Illinois? 23 A Owens Illinois sand plant. 24 Q Okay. How is your memory? Pretty good? 25 A I have a good memory. 1720 1 Q Do you remember any conversations with 2 Luke Womack specifically regarding the Owens Illinois 3 underground storage tank? 4 A I don't recall any conversation about it, 5 no. 6 Q It would have been in 1998. Does that 7 help refresh your recollection? 8 A Mmmm... No. I don't remember any -- I 9 mean, it doesn't matter. I mean, it doesn't mean that we 10 didn't talk about it, you know, because we -- naturally, 11 we work at the same plant, you know, and I read the 12 paper. And then I ask -- would have asked him about it. 13 Q This would have been before articles came 14 out in the paper. Did you have any discussions with Luke 15 Womack regarding underground storage tanks? 16 A I don't recall any, no. 17 Q Regarding Owens Illinois underground 18 storage tank? 19 A I don't recall any, no. 20 Q Do you recall Luke Womack offering you an 21 underground storage tank for Owens Illinois? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you recall Luke Womack saying, I heard 24 that our underground storage tank had problems. I can 25 get you one. 1721 1 A No. 2 Q Did that underground storage tank have 3 problems? 4 A Ours at the plant? 5 Q Yes. 6 A No. Ours at plant is practically new. 7 It's double-wall thousand gallon tank, has hydrocarbon 8 alarm on it. It's a very good tank. 9 Q Prior to putting the new tank in, were 10 there problems with the other tank, something about rain 11 water being able to get into it or something along those 12 lines? 13 A I don't remember that. 14 Q Okay. You are a mechanic? 15 A Yes, I am a journeyman maintenance 16 mechanic electrician. 17 Q So you work right in the area of the 18 underground storage tank? 19 A I also in my job work on the company 20 trucks in the auto shop, which is in the proximity of the 21 the storage tank. 22 Q Okay. So to further help refresh your 23 recollection, the week before the gas station was 24 demolished, you don't recall at all Mr. Luke Womack 25 coming up to you and saying, We are getting ready to get 1722 1 this 2,000 gallon tank out of the ground down in Jackson. 2 Do you think Lou or Phil would want it? 3 A I do not recall that at all. 4 Q It could have happened? 5 A It could have happened. I don't recall. 6 It would have meant nothing to me. I would have no 7 reason to have to remember it. 8 Q How often do people offer you underground 9 storage tanks? 10 A I can't remember anybody offering me one. 11 Q Okay. It would kind of stick in your 12 mind, do you think? 13 A I think it would, yes. 14 Q Okay. 15 A But like I say, it would have meant 16 nothing to me, and I -- it would have just went out the 17 other side, and I would have forgot it. So I don't 18 recall it. But, you know, I am not saying it didn't 19 happen. 20 Q Are Jeff Taylor and Luke Womack pretty 21 good friends? 22 A I would imagine. 23 Q And you and Luke, are you guys pretty good 24 friends? 25 A We are pretty good friends. Jeff Taylor 1723 1 and myself are good friends. 2 Q Spend some time away from work together? 3 A Once in a while. Not very often. 4 Q Do you know Robert Womack? 5 A No, I don't. 6 Q Okay. So you haven't borrowed any money 7 from Robert Womack? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay. Other than joking around the plant, 10 do you have any specific information -- for instance, did 11 Luke say, I don't know where the tank is. Ever? 12 A I believe one day I was joking with him 13 about it after I read an article in the paper. Yeah. I 14 am not sure how it came about. But they were tearing 15 down a gas station. And I might have said something to 16 him. I don't know. Anyway, something about -- he might 17 have said something about they were tearing down a gas 18 station. And I said -- and I remember seeing that gas 19 station being tore down. 20 Q You drove by? 21 A It's the first I realized they were going 22 to do that, you know. 23 Q So you may have driven by it that weekend? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q You didn't stop and help? 1724 1 A (Witness shakes head.) 2 Q You didn't take the tank? 3 A It's my weekend, man. I ain't working. 4 Q You didn't take the tank? 5 A Me? 6 Q Yeah. 7 A No. 8 Q You don't know where the tank is, right? 9 Or was? 10 A Only according to the newspaper. 11 MR. IREY: Okay. Well, I appreciate your time 12 today. At this point, again, the Grand Jurors can ask 13 questions. 14 Q You have heard that originally Bob Womack 15 was telling people that the tank went to Owens Illinois, 16 correct? 17 A I had heard that the company had got drug 18 into it somehow. I didn't hear of the specifics of how. 19 Q Do you remember talking to Dave Mason Jr. 20 at any time in regards to any underground storage tank 21 being removed at 505 Sutter in Jackson? 22 A No. 23 Q Not a once? 24 A (Witness shakes head.) 25 Q Have you heard who drove the tank out of 1725 1 town after it was pulled from the ground at 505 Sutter 2 Street? 3 A No. 4 Q Have you ever heard that it was Mark 5 Sherrill? 6 A I think I read that in the newspaper. 7 Q Have you ever heard -- 8 A But I hadn't heard it. 9 Q Have you ever heard that it was Bob 10 Womack? 11 A (Witness shakes head.) No. Like I said, 12 all I know about that part of it is what I have read in 13 the newspaper. 14 Q Have you ever done any other work for any 15 family member of Luke's? 16 A No. 17 Q No hourly work on weekends, vehicle 18 maintenance, that kind of stuff? 19 A No. 20 Q You are mostly heavy equipment maintenance 21 or jack of all trades? 22 A Jack of all trades and master of none. 23 I work on cars, trucks, the equipment at 24 the plant. 25 Q You guys have those big World War II 1726 1 things -- what are those called out there? 2 A M-37 Dodge military trucks. I keep them 3 in repair. 4 Q Do you remember Phil Joses searching Owens 5 Illinois area for the tank? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you remember any discussion about... 8 GRAND JUROR: Search. 9 Q BY MR. IREY: -- about the search before or 10 after? 11 A I recall somebody saying something about 12 somebody went and looked around the property. Who or -- 13 I don't have any specifics, but it was conversation. 14 Q That was late spring? 15 A During -- you know, might have been 16 somewhere -- I was off the whole month of October, so I 17 missed out on a lot. 18 Q Does it get pretty muddy at Owens Illinois 19 in the late spring? At least, this spring? 20 A This past spring? 21 Q Yes. 22 A This past spring was a real wet year. In 23 the pit especially, it's clay and sand and the trucks get 24 very muddy. It is very, very muddy. 25 Q Were you ever with Luke Womack when he may 1727 1 have pointed out an ad for the reward for the tank? 2 A No. I saw -- I saw the ad, but no, I 3 wasn't with him. 4 Q You saw the ad posted or in the newspaper? 5 A In the newspaper. 6 Q Did Luke say, Look for the ad? Or you 7 were skimming through the ads and you happened to notice 8 it? 9 A It's the local newspaper. I try to keep 10 abreast of what is going on in my county. 11 Q You always read the want ads? 12 A Want ads, oh, yeah. 13 Q Just asking. 14 A I am always looking for a good deal. 15 Q Did you get the reward for the tank? 16 A No. As a matter of fact, you know, I just 17 didn't have time to go look for it. 18 Q If you would have found it, you would have 19 given it up without the reward maybe? 20 A Me? Yeah. But the reward would have been 21 nice. I do have a family, you know. 22 MR. IREY: Thank you, Mr. Skidmore, for showing 23 up. Hopefully, we got you after your work schedule. 24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I come up right after I got 25 off work. I appreciate that. That helps. 1728 1 MR. IREY: There's an admonition from the 2 Foreman. 3 Unless there is another question? 4 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Skidmore, you are 5 admonished not to reveal to any person except as directed 6 by the Court what questions were asked or what responses 7 were given or any other matters concerning the nature or 8 subject of the Grand Jury's investigation that you 9 learned during your appearance before the Grand Jury. 10 This admonition continues unless and until 11 such time as a transcript of the Grand Jury's proceeding 12 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 13 punishable as contempt of court. 14 This does not prevent you from discussing 15 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 16 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 17 Grand Jury. 18 And if I could get a date and signature? 19 This is exactly the same admonition I just read. 20 Thank you very much. You are free to go. 21 THE WITNESS: See you later, Dave. 22 THE FOREPERSON: We are off the record. 23 (Discussion held off the record.) 24 THE FOREPERSON: Let's come to order. 25 MR. IREY: William E. Wolin. 1729 1 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Wolin, if you would remain 2 standing, please, and raise your right hand. 3 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 4 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 5 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 6 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 7 THE WITNESS: I do. 8 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 9 May the record show that Mr. Wolin 10 answered in the affirmative. 11 You may sit down. 12 (TIME NOTED: 2:27 P.M.) 13 ---oOo--- 14 WILLIAM E. WOLIN 15 Called as a witness herein by the People, 16 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 17 and testified as follows: 18 19 EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. IREY: 21 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Wolin. 22 A Good afternoon. 23 Q It's been a long time coming, huh? This 24 testimony? A lot of stress in your life? 25 A Six months. 1730 1 Q A lot of stress in your life? 2 A Well, this is not the most pleasant 3 experience. 4 Q Okay. For the record, I need to ask you 5 to spell your last name, please. 6 A W-O-L-I-N. 7 Q And your business, please? 8 A I am stockholder in Wolin and Sons, Inc., 9 which is construction. 10 Q Do you currently know who are the owners? 11 Because we had some crossed-up information earlier this 12 week. 13 A Well, my mother owns some of the stock. 14 Retired brother we have been buying out for several 15 years. I have two brothers, both stockholders. One is 16 active in the business; the other one is retired. My 17 son, Damian -- whom, for the record, I call him my son. 18 He is not. He is -- when he was 15 -- he was nine years 19 old when I married his mother. He wanted to change his 20 name. I agreed. Whatever that's worth. And our 21 controller Michael Quinn, stockholder. 22 Q Who are the corporate stockholders, if you 23 know? 24 A Damian is president, Michael 25 secretary/treasurer, and I am vice president. 1731 1 Q So three corporate officers? 2 A Yes. 3 Q So if William A. Wolin testified earlier 4 this week or if E. Michael Quinn testified earlier this 5 week, that was minor confusion on who actually is the 6 current corporate officers? 7 A Well, you know, Michael -- if Michael 8 testified different than what I am, she is probably 9 closer to right than I am. Her mind is a little 10 sharper. 11 No, Bill is not a stockholder nor an 12 officer. That is, A is not. 13 Q Most of our conversations today will be 14 regarding 505 Sutter Street. But could you basically 15 give a short history of Wolin and Sons? 16 A Well, I started the business in the '50s. 17 And when I borrowed money from the bank, I guess they 18 didn't trust me and so they put down -- well, I had to -- 19 I got my dad's signature. So I received a mortgage to 20 pay the mortgage on the property on the home place. 21 And so they called -- the bank called the 22 bank account Wolin and Sons. It was Eddie Wolin and 23 Sons. We operated as a partnership or -- well, from '55 24 to '65. And then I incorporated and we formed Wolin and 25 Sons, Inc. 1732 1 Q Okay. And most of your construction 2 activities are -- is commercial? Or logging? Or some of 3 everything? 4 A No logging. Well, we will remove trees 5 when it's part of a project. But as far as, per se, 6 logging, referring to the logging industry, no. What -- 7 we have, over the years, built hundreds of miles of 8 logging roads. We do remove logs in right-of-way, but 9 not, per se, just for logging. 10 Q And you also build -- you do work on 11 highways? 12 A Yes. State, Federal, County. 13 Q Okay. You do some underground 14 construction also? 15 A Yes. Water, sewer, storm drain. 16 Q Okay. So you have several pieces of heavy 17 equipment? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you ever loan them out? 20 A Oh, do I loan them out? Yes, 21 unfortunately. 22 Q Okay. Before we get into that, you have 23 reached an agreement with the District Attorney's Office, 24 correct? 25 A Excuse me? 1733 1 Q You have reached an agreement with the 2 District Attorney's Office? 3 A I believe so. I thought we had before, 4 but when I read through it, then I realized that I didn't 5 understand you entirely. So hopefully, we are there. 6 Q Okay. But an agreement in principle? 7 A Yes. Well, what I didn't realize, David, 8 is you put in there a permanent injunction on me and that 9 stipulated a judgment. I did not hear you ever tell me 10 that. 11 Q But we switched that to three years 12 earlier this week. 13 A Yes. So I was a little shocked when I 14 read that. I learned that just outside the door here the 15 other day. 16 Q Then you went to your attorney two nights 17 later? 18 A Yes. I thought that was kind of severe, 19 being as I am a -- well, I thought I was a friendly 20 witness here. But after I read that, I been wondering. 21 Q Standard language, Mr. Wolin. But I am 22 sure it came as a shock if you hadn't heard it before. 23 For that, I apologize. 24 So you met with your attorney? 25 A Yes. 1734 1 Q We chatted on the phone. And at the end 2 of that conversation, about 8:00 on Tuesday night? 3 A Yeah. 4 Q Then your attorney called back the next 5 morning, I guess that is, with your authorization and 6 said okay. 7 A Well, I haven't seen the final document, 8 so I delivered his handwritten changes to your office. 9 And I haven't seen it since then. So I assume that we 10 are in agreement, yes. 11 Q Okay. And basically, the terms of that, 12 for all of the Members of the Grand Jury, if you could 13 briefly describe what you understand. 14 A Well, I will have to admit that I don't 15 understand all the papers there, the civil and criminal 16 action. But basically, I am pleading guilty of aiding 17 and abetting in a crime, environmental law. I don't 18 remember the number of it. 19 Q That's your son. On the criminal case, 20 correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And your corporation on the civil case is 23 doing something similar? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. 1735 1 A And the corporation is paying $2,000 to 2 the County Environmental Department for educational 3 materials, and training operators, twelve operators, I 4 think is where we ended up. 5 Q One condition is you are purchasing books 6 and publications to help train businesses in the County 7 in hazardous materials and hazardous wastes, correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q One is, you are going to train some of 10 your employees in hazardous materials and hazardous waste? 11 A Yes, permanent operators. 12 Q Twelve? 13 A Twelve of them. 14 Q 400 bucks per day per man? 15 A 400 total, I understand it. 16 Q Each man is $44 an hour rated? 17 A That's the first time I heard that. 18 Q Okay. I can mark this. 19 Do you remember me asking E. Michael Quinn 20 about, how much does it cost you -- 21 A I'm sorry. You are talking about payroll 22 costs. 23 Q Correct. Payroll costs. 24 A I'm sorry. I thought you was talking 25 about training costs. Yes. Cost of labor, yes. 1736 1 Q So eight times 44, 360 bucks per man, is 2 about the training you have agreed to, correct? 3 A Well, I will have a little problem with 4 the way -- 5 Q Let me ask a different question. 6 A You are talking about payroll costs; not 7 training costs? 8 Q Correct. Payroll. Average cost per hour 9 is about how much? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You have to tell them about how much. 12 A 44.60. 13 Q And you agreed each one of those people 14 will take a day off work? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And then you will have either myself or 17 Amador County or State of California will provide 18 training, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And that's in underground storage tanks 21 and hazardous wastes and hazardous materials? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. 24 A I'm sorry. I thought you was talking 25 about the training fee, Dave. 1737 1 Q I don't always phrase my questions... 2 Then on top of that, the maximum it will 3 cost you to pay for this training is the $400. I have to 4 provide that training to you at a person for less than 5 $400? 6 A That's correct. That's my understanding. 7 Q And you are willing to pay for that? 8 A Yes. 9 Q That's the agreement? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So out of pocket, your business is between 12 seven and $10,000 before you even start talking about 13 your time and Michael's time and Billy's time and 14 Damian's time, correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And it's all because you loaned somebody a 17 a piece of equipment, in your mind? 18 A That's how I got here. 19 Q Okay. And then Billy's agreement, as you 20 understand it -- because it was a package, correct? 21 A A package? 22 Q You had to reach an agreement and Billy 23 had to reach an agreement? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And he is basically going to plead to a 1738 1 misdemeanor? 2 A Yes. 3 Q But it won't be accepted by the Court. It 4 will be called a plea in abeyance? 5 A Yes. 6 Q So he won't actually be convicted, 7 correct? 8 A Well, unless something happens within 9 three years. 10 Q So as long as there aren't any other 11 violations of the law. But if there are, he has to pay a 12 fine of $13,500. That's your understanding? 13 A Yes. I heard that number before. I have 14 a lot of questions, but I don't need to take their time 15 on it. 16 Q Okay. Then also on the civil case, the 17 person I am calling Billy is William A. Wolin, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And he is going to take a 40-hour OSHA 20 class, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q So he will miss a week of work and have to 23 pay to take the class? 24 A Yes. When you say he will, I was assuming 25 that the corporation was going to be paying that. Is 1739 1 that a problem? 2 Q Not. Just as long as he is trained. 3 A Yes. 4 Q So we needed to let the Grand Jurors know 5 that, Mr. Wolin, because they might think you got too 6 sweet a deal or you might be testifying not truthfully 7 because of that deal. They may not think that. But we 8 have to let them know, because they need to know what 9 that when they are making a decision on whether or not 10 you are testifying truthfully today. 11 A Yes. 12 Q You have every intention of telling it as 13 it happened, correct? 14 A I don't have any reason to do otherwise, 15 from -- I think they will understand when they hear what 16 happened. 17 Q Okay. Why don't you tell us how you met 18 Bob Womack and, before loaning him the equipment this 19 year, whether or not you have loaned it to him in the 20 past. 21 A Well, I met Bob, I believe, about 1985, 22 somewhere around there. He came in the office and he saw 23 that we had a piece of equipment sitting along the road. 24 And he wanted to use it, a dozer, because he had bought 25 a house and a piece of property, and he wanted to enlarge 1740 1 the house and garage. 2 So I told him I didn't have an operator 3 available. And he said he could drive it. So I am 4 reluctant to just let anyone operate the equipment. So I 5 talked to him about, asking him what he had operated. 6 And you can tell in a hurry if a person has operated 7 particularly certain models of equipment when you start 8 asking them the serial numbers of the machines and the 9 ages and if they know, you know, when various models of 10 caterpillar tractors were manufactured and how they are 11 equipped and the serial numbers and the series. He -- 12 after just shooting the breeze with him for a few 13 minutes, it was obvious a that he was familiar with the 14 equipment. 15 So I let him use it. He operated it 16 himself. I don't remember. I assume he paid for it. I 17 don't remember. I would think he probably did because I 18 don't remember that he didn't. 19 Q Was that up on Ridge Road or somewhere 20 else? 21 A Yes, up at the house, at his house. 22 Q Okay. Keep going, if you want. 23 A Well, there is other times -- then he was 24 involved with what they referred to as the Gold Creek 25 property out here, and he used several pieces of 1741 1 equipment. Some of them he operated himself. Some of it 2 I believe we had operators on. And they sold that 3 property or whatever went on. I don't know the details 4 of that. 5 But we worked out there -- I should say 6 our equipment worked out there off and on for maybe -- 7 might have been as long as two years. I don't remember 8 how long it was. 9 Q It's called Gold Creek? 10 A Yeah. It's the property between the 11 Reservation and Highway 88, between what they refer to as 12 the old Caminavi Ranch. 13 Q The property he just sold? 14 A The property that is in litigation there 15 now, yes. Maybe litigation isn't the right word. I 16 don't know the status of it. But it's that property that 17 goes from where Roland Womack lives to the Rancheria 18 property. 19 Q Okay. And so you have known Bob Womack 20 for twelve plus years? 21 A Yes, something like that. 22 Q And in fact, your family vacationed with 23 him off and on off over the last few years; is that 24 correct? 25 A Yes. In fact, he invited me to do a lot 1742 1 of things, which they, you know, wanted us to go to 2 dinner and different things. And we went to the 3 Caribbean on a trip which -- I mean, he just made the 4 arrangements and we paid our way. He wasn't paying our 5 way or anything like that. And he took quite a few other 6 -- I think there was one group, there was like 25 people, 7 a lot of them from around the county went. We weren't 8 the only ones. 9 Then we went on a cruise to Mexico. Just 10 one of those little three-day things down to -- I can't 11 remember the town. Ensenada, is it? Yeah, on the 12 Pacific side. 13 And as far as another trip, yeah, we 14 went -- we flew to Mexico City once. And there was Bob 15 and June and Sylvia and a friend of Bob's from 16 Sacramento, and then a fellow by the name of Alex 17 Hernandez and his wife, who are -- they are from the Old 18 Country, and so they spoke the language. And they were 19 really fun to travel with, because I really enjoyed 20 having Alex around because he could communicate with the 21 locals and we had a great time. 22 Q It's been over the last few years or ever 23 since the mid '80s that you were spending quite a bit of 24 time off and on with Bob Womack? 25 A Well, over that period of time, I can't 1743 1 say that. You know, it's been just kind of scattered 2 out. I don't know that you can say it happened all at 3 one particular time. 4 Q Okay. Some of the questions I ask today 5 will be a little difficult. But if you could be as 6 explicit as possible, that would be helpful, if that's 7 okay. 8 what do you know about KRL? 9 A Well, I have heard about it a lot over the 10 years. But I don't ask people, you know, their personal 11 business. I do -- I am familiar with the fact that Bob 12 has said that, you know, property belongs to KRL. And 13 it's a partnership made up of family members. 14 But as far as knowing, you know, beyond 15 that, I don't -- I don't really have any -- I have often 16 wondered myself, you know. They -- as far as the details 17 of what goes on or how it works, I don't -- it's the -- 18 it's the family, the children, Kim, Luke and Roland, is 19 the way I understand it. Or it would be Kim, Roland and 20 Luke or Larry, whichever. 21 Q Whichever happens to -- 22 A I don't know the details. 23 Q So you don't know who makes the decisions 24 to buy or sell 2,000 acre properties? 25 A No. I have never been involved in those. 1744 1 He has told me different times about looking at a piece 2 of property here or there that he is thinking about 3 doing. But as far as having any -- any real 4 conversations about any of that, no. 5 Q He is pretty much a property developer or 6 what they call land speculator? 7 A Well, I wouldn't -- yeah, maybe the 8 latter, huh? I have never known him to develop any. 9 Well, that's not fair. I mean, he did a nice job on the 10 dentist's office, and so that's developing. But I would 11 say more speculation, I guess, buying and selling. 12 Q Sometimes distressed property, 13 sometimes -- 14 A Yes, I guess. I am not sure what 15 distressed property would mean, if there is a bankruptcy 16 or something coming along. 17 Q Do you know if he buys it or KRL buys it? 18 A Oh, no. I don't really know the details 19 of that. 20 Q Okay. Before May of '98, have you ever 21 loaned Mr. Womack equipment before or rented Mr. Womack 22 equipment before? 23 A Yes, both. 24 Q On more than one occasion? 25 A Yes. 1745 1 Q Okay. And in May of this year, did you 2 happen to loan Mr. Womack any equipment? 3 A Yes. He told me he was -- he was looking 4 at that service station and was trying to get a deal with 5 Mr. Mason. And that they had reached an agreement on the 6 price. And that -- oh, I don't remember over just what 7 period of time, but he was telling me what he wanted to 8 do was take that station out and put in a little 9 dental -- I forget what he called the office, for a 10 another -- I think people that make dentures. And that 11 office would be at the street level, and then additional 12 parking on top of that. 13 Q Okay. 14 A So -- 15 Q Was this several months? Several weeks? 16 Or the week of -- 17 A I would say over several weeks, you know, 18 that he mentioned it. 19 And then one day, he announced to me, Hey, 20 I want to tear that thing down on Saturday. And as I 21 recall, he said that he preferred to have Bill, my son, 22 operate it, because he felt he was, you know, probably 23 skilled to do it. 24 I was concerned because it was next to 25 the highway about who was going to operate it, because 1746 1 the fact that, if you have the person on there that's not 2 familiar with it, being next to the traffic, I didn't 3 want -- I wanted to know who was going to be on it. 4 Q You didn't want it in reverse for three 5 seconds. Is that essentially -- 6 A Right. Yeah, it's a safety thing. Bill 7 has been running this stuff since he was, you know, 7, 8 8 years old. 9 Q Okay. And so was this late the week of 10 April 30th, May 1st? Or was this a week or two before 11 the demolition, if you recall? 12 A Well, I think he announced to me just a 13 day or so before that he wanted to proceed with 14 demolishing the building. And I can't -- I can't say 15 what day that was precisely, but it was -- my memory is, 16 it wasn't very many days before. Maybe two, three days 17 before. 18 Q Okay. And then he told you he needed to 19 borrow a piece of equipment? Or did he say, Bill, can 20 you supply me with a piece of equipment? How -- 21 A He knew what he wanted. He wanted the 22 excavator with the grapple on it for doing the demo. And 23 we were working up at the saw mill demolishing the old -- 24 tearing down part of the old plywood plant at that time. 25 And it was at a time when the machine was available. It 1747 1 wasn't going to be working. 2 And so he told me he had contacted Mondani 3 to haul the thing. And which Mondani hauls our stuff all 4 the time. He said Mondani would haul it. He wanted me 5 to be at the station noon on Friday to meet Mondani to 6 see if there was enough room for him to unload the piece 7 of equipment and get it off the road. 8 Q This was all the same day? Or maybe he 9 contacted you the day before? 10 A I can't remember if it was the day before 11 or that morning. I don't remember. 12 Q Okay. 13 A So I was late getting there. Doug was 14 just driving away as I drove up. So I went like this to 15 him, if there was any problems? And he made a gesture 16 that, No problem. And which I didn't think there was. 17 And Bob was there. And so he told me that 18 he had the permits and everything all taken care of, and 19 that Mark would have his trucks there first thing in the 20 morning, and that the dump was going to be open and he 21 had it all planned. So everything was going to be 22 hunky-dory for Saturday morning. 23 Q And do you remember who contacted -- I am 24 going to call him Billy. 25 A No, I don't. Bill said that I told him 1748 1 that's what -- I think when you and I were talking with 2 Bill. I don't remember. Bill said that he and I went to 3 the site together. I don't remember that either. But we 4 could have done that late in the day. Did he say what 5 time of the day? I don't remember what time of day. 6 Q I can't answer questions. You can say I 7 don't remember what -- 8 A Yeah, I don't remember what time. 9 Q You were at the site with Bob Womack 10 around noon on Friday? 11 A Yeah, I was late. It was a little after 12 that I got there. 13 Q And at that point, had he asked you for 14 any information about any Workmen's Comp. insurance or 15 equipment insurance or anything along those lines? 16 A No. 17 Q Is it a fact that you didn't know that he 18 attained any of that information until after the 19 demolition? Is that your understanding? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q So you didn't know that he came by your 22 office that day? 23 A No. He -- it appears, the best I can 24 reconstruct it when I talked to Michael, is that he told 25 me to be there at 12:00. I didn't get there until 1749 1 probably 12:20, 12:30. I don't remember what time it 2 was. But I was a little late getting there. But I don't 3 know if he was there when I drove up or not. 4 But he was there within moments of the 5 time I got there, but apparently he was in my office 6 telling Michael that he needed the information on this 7 piece of paper. But when he -- when I did talk to him 8 there, he told me that he had everything taken care of, 9 you know. 10 And of course, maybe I am naive, but I 11 assumed, you know, he has done a lot of building like 12 that dental office there. I assumed he was doing it as 13 an owner builder, because that's perfectly legitimate 14 thing to do. And he had a lot of people hired there. So 15 it didn't dawn on me that anything any different. 16 Q He is an acting as the general. That's 17 what you thought? 18 A Yeah. He is entitled. I mean, anybody 19 can do owner builder if you own the property. 20 Q But if you don't own the property, then 21 who can do the work? 22 A Well, if you don't own the property, you 23 better have some kind of other arrangement, I would 24 think. 25 Q Okay. But if you don't own the property, 1750 1 then are you acting as the contractor, in your mind? 2 A Well, it would be, the way I understand 3 the law is. 4 Q Eventually, we will get back to what 5 happened Friday afternoon. 6 But later after the tank came out of the 7 ground, you received a phone call from Gary Clark, 8 correct? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 Q Tell us about the conversation from Gary 11 Clark, please. 12 A I don't remember if that was on Tuesday or 13 Wednesday. It might have been Monday. I don't 14 remember. Probably it was Tuesday. But Gary Clark 15 called me. And I won't repeat what he said. 16 But anyway, he was quite blunt in asking 17 me what I was doing. And I knew better than to take a 18 tank out. So I explained to him that he had to talk to 19 Mr. Womack, that he was using our piece of equipment. 20 That I had agreed for him to use it to demolish a 21 building. And as far as taking the tank out, that was 22 total news to me. 23 But I -- 24 Q Because you had left before the tank came 25 out that day? 1751 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. 3 A I mean, there had been discussion about 4 taking the tank out. It's obvious, if you are going to 5 build a dental office, you are got not going to build it 6 on top of a tank. 7 As far as my agreeing to have anything to 8 do with it, there was never that kind of conversation. 9 Sure, we talked about it. I remember one conversation. 10 I think maybe it was you or someone said that I made the 11 comment about I was -- made reference to a tank that came 12 out. I think it was about 1950. I remember when I was 13 going to high school, there was a tank in Plymouth. The 14 guy didn't have a backhoe. He dug around the thing, 15 filled the hole with water, floated the tank out. I 16 remember talking about that kind of stuff. 17 As far as him saying, you know, when you 18 take the building out, I want you to take the tank out, 19 there was never that kind of conversation. 20 Q Not on Friday. Not on Saturday. Not 21 ever? 22 A Correct. Yes. The bottom line of Gary 23 Clark's conversation was that I didn't get to was that 24 Gary finally informed me, to my rude awakening, was that 25 he had the permit in his hand, and it was filled out with 1752 1 the company name, with the company license, with our 2 insurance, Workmen's Comp. and I think -- what else? 3 City license. 4 Q I will show it to you in a minute. I am 5 not hiding the ball from you. I want to have your best 6 recollection without showing you the document, Mr. 7 Wolin. 8 So that's what Gary told you on whatever 9 date? 10 A I don't know what he told me in those 11 words. Anyway, he told me my name was on the documents. 12 Q And your insurance numbers? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So then did you call Bob Womack? 15 A No, I didn't. I was infuriated, to say 16 the least. I couldn't believe what he was telling me. 17 But it was the next morning -- I believe 18 the next morning, no more than two days later -- I saw 19 him in Mel's restaurant. And he invited me to go over 20 and have breakfast. 21 I walked up to the table. I think Mark 22 Sherrill and somebody else was sitting with him. And I 23 stopped at the edge of the table. I told Mark and the 24 other guy, With friends like this guy, you don't need 25 enemies. That's kind of been the tone of our 1753 1 relationship since. 2 But I was -- I was infuriated. I never 3 been framed before. 4 Q Okay. We will go back. Let's go ahead 5 and go through the weekend. So you were on site. The 6 excavator was delivered. You didn't help take apart the 7 dispensers and those types of things, if you recall? 8 A On the pumps and stuff? 9 Q On Friday. 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. And did you do any work at the site 12 at all on Friday, other than the short conversations with 13 Bob? 14 A That was it. 15 Q Okay. And Saturday morning, did you meet 16 him for breakfast? 17 A I can't remember. 18 Q Okay. If you did meet him for breakfast, 19 you remember him offering you the underground storage 20 tank? 21 A I remember, at some point in time, that he 22 was talking about, you know, giving the tank away or if I 23 was interested in the tank. And I told him I wasn't 24 interested. I don't remember when that conversation was. 25 Q You don't remember whether it was before 1754 1 or after? 2 A No. 3 Q Okay. So the next day, fairly early in 4 the day, you were at 505. The building was already 5 knocked down? 6 A The next day? 7 Q Saturday? 8 A Saturday, yes. 9 Q If you could describe the day for us. 10 A Well, I -- the reason I was there was, I 11 wanted to take some video of the grapple working. And 12 the excavator is like the backhoe most of you are 13 familiar with, backhoe on tracks. It has a long arm on 14 it. And we have developed a device which makes it 15 operate like your hand. 16 Q Grand Jury Exhibit 25. You can -- 17 A Okay. Well, this device here we have 18 manufactured and built and designed ourselves. We have a 19 a patent on it. 20 But I was just trying to get some video of 21 it working. And with my little camera, because just for 22 whatever purpose, amateur photographs. And so that was 23 primarily the reason I went down there, was to take some 24 videos of that. 25 Q Okay. But you were there off and on all 1755 1 day? 2 A Into the early afternoon, yes. 3 Q Okay. But you are sure you had left 4 before the tank came out because you actually had an 5 engagement, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you were a little late for that? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And what was that engagement? 10 A Well, I was supposed to be home -- I don't 11 know. I think it was 4:30. I was a little late because 12 I was monkeying around here too long. That engagement 13 was, we were planning a trip with Phil and Linda Collins 14 and Sally Podesta and Pat McCaulley, who are now Mr. and 15 Ms. McCaulley, and Dr. Fuller and his wife. 16 Q So you are 100 percent sure you weren't 17 there when the tank came out of the ground? 18 A Yes, I am. 19 Q You didn't tie it to the trailer? 20 A No. I didn't tie to it the trailer. 21 MR. IREY: Okay. This is the point where we 22 normally take our first break. Mr. Wolin is going to 23 take quite few more minutes to... 24 THE FOREPERSON: Let's take a ten-minute at this 25 point. Okay. I will read an admonition to Mr. Wolin and 1756 1 then we will take a ten-minute break. 2 Mr. Wolin, you are admonished not to 3 reveal to any person except as directed by the Court what 4 questions were asked or what answers were given or any 5 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 6 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 7 appearance before the Grand Jury. 8 This admonition continues unless and until 9 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 10 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 11 punishable as contempt of court. 12 This does not prevent you from discussing 13 the matter with your attorney, if you have an attorney 14 advising with you respect to your appearance before the 15 Grand Jury. 16 What I will have you do is, I will have 17 you sign this. This is exactly what I read to you. Can 18 I get a date and signature? We will initial it when you 19 exit when we are through. 20 Thank you very much. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 THE FOREPERSON: You are excused. 23 MR. IREY: They excuse you, then they have 24 something to do before they can leave. Don't leave the 25 building though, please. 1757 1 THE FOREPERSON: Ten minutes. 2 You want to go to a quarter after? That 3 would be 13 minutes. 4 MR. IREY: Whatever you folks want. 5 THE FOREPERSON: The same admonition I read to 6 you this morning still applies for this recess. We will 7 recess until 3:15. 8 Jan, we are off the record. 9 (Recess taken from 3:02 to 3:15 p.m.) 10 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Wolin, I will remind you, 11 you are still under oath. You may be seated. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Also, please stop us any time if 14 you run out of water. We will be glad to refill it. 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 16 THE FOREPERSON: You bet. 17 Q BY MR. IREY: Mr. Wolin, do you think 18 it's fair you have owned a piece of equipment and then 19 the District Attorney's Office came after your company to 20 prosecute you? 21 A Oh, I don't know what's fair. I think in 22 the -- in the eyes of the legal world, as far as 23 interpretation of environmental laws, there's -- you 24 know, people have asked me, What in the world is going 25 on? I have been trying to explain to them, if you have 1758 1 a pickup or an automobile and somebody wants to borrow it 2 on Friday or Saturday to do something, if they go rob a 3 bank, you are part of the crime. And that's where I am. 4 So I guess I am part of the crime. 5 I just need to -- I don't know how I am 6 going to operate from here on. I guess I have to -- any 7 time anybody uses anything, I am going to have to get 8 counsel to draft up a document where I am assured that 9 there is no hazardous materials involved. 10 It's just like when we took Meeks building 11 down here a few weeks ago. I asked them about the 12 asbestos. Because we had a building was, like, half 13 down. And they assured me there wasn't. So the thing 14 was pretty high. And there was a bunch of stuff came 15 falling out of the top up there. And I said to Dan 16 Connelly there, Meeks's general superintendent of 17 construction, I said, Is there any asbestos in this 18 thing? And so he says, No, I don't think so. He says, 19 you know, they had somebody come in and take it all out. 20 Well, where I see where I am now is, if 21 the people that came in to take asbestos all out failed 22 to get some and the County drives up and says, What the H 23 are you doing? Look at the asbestos there. You know, I 24 am 13,000 bucks in trouble. 25 Is that what you are telling me? 1759 1 Q Billy. Not you. 2 A Well, then what, the company. Not me 3 personally. 4 Q Whatever the statutes require, so there is 5 nothing hanging over your head. 6 A If my son is on the piece of equipment, 7 though, it's 13,000 bucks. 8 Q Unless he has a reasonable explanation for 9 it, such as he was assured by the foreman. 10 I guess that's the tough decision, is, if 11 you go in and cover your eyes with a, you know, 12 blindfold, is it okay to go ahead and violate the law. 13 And the common sense answer to you would 14 be, what? Is it okay to, say, cover your eyes and say I 15 saw nothing. We are talking philosophy. These are the 16 things you want to chat with away from the Grand Jurors, 17 I think. 18 A I am a little concerned about how I 19 protect myself -- the business; not myself. And how to 20 advise my son to keep from getting in big trouble in the 21 future. Because obviously, we can do something about a 22 situation like this. Training will do that. And asking 23 more questions and I not assuming that -- I mean, in this 24 case, I assume the guy is a friend and I had, you know, 25 not a clue that he was going to do what happened. 1760 1 But at the same time, he will probably, 2 you know, be telling you that I agreed to do it. So I 3 mean, it wouldn't surprise me anything now. 4 Q Okay. So along those lines, you think 5 training will help your employees -- 6 A Definitely. 7 Q -- recognize hazards, things like that? 8 A We have had training in asbestos, as I 9 explained to you before, in projects. 10 Q Okay. So originally, the first time you 11 chatted with Mr. Womack about anything in your name, did 12 he have some story about he just wanted a piece of 13 equipment insurance or something like that? If you could 14 describe that. I don't remember that story. 15 A Well, when I -- when I walked up to the 16 breakfast table there that morning and they invited me to 17 sit down and have breakfast, and I told Mark and the 18 other fellow who was there at the table -- there was like 19 three or four of them there. And I made the statement to 20 'em -- I really didn't know what to say. I was just 21 infuriated with him. 22 I made the statement to the rest of 'em, 23 With a friend like this, you don't need enemies. That set 24 the tone of the conversation. So Womack wanted to know 25 what I was referring to. And so I told him that Gary 1761 1 Clark said that my name was all over the -- you know, the 2 stuff was filled out with our company name. And I had no 3 knowledge of that. And I was -- I was just -- I couldn't 4 believe it. I was really upset about it. 5 So then he give me this excuse. He said, 6 They wanted to know if the equipment -- wanted 7 insurance. That's the furthest thing from the truth. 8 Q Go ahead and walk through it. That's 9 actually what he said? 10 A That's what he told me. 11 Q He said the City wanted to know if you had 12 insurance? 13 A Right. And I know that the City could 14 care less if the equipment has insurance. There is 15 the -- whether it's the City or County, any time you 16 fill out a permit, what they are looking for is 17 responsibility and someone that will be liable if 18 anything happens. Our yard's license, we have a bond to 19 the State. If anything goes wrong, they go after our 20 bond. 21 In the cases of Workmen's Comp., if the 22 employee gets hurt. I didn't have any employees out 23 there. So technically, I didn't have any exposure there 24 maybe. I don't know. I have learned a lot about law 25 here, about where my liability extends to. I assumed he 1762 1 had Workmen's Comp. because I knew he has had a lot of 2 people do different things. 3 Q Over a period of years? 4 A Yes, over a period of years. If he 5 doesn't have Workmen's Comp., I am amazed. 6 Q So that part of the conversation at that 7 point -- there wasn't this whole discussion about 8 Michael? I don't want you to tell that story yet, 9 right? That wasn't the conversation when he blamed it on 10 someone else? 11 A No. That was at a different time. 12 Q That was later? 13 A Yeah. 14 Q So you said, Clark says my name is on 15 papers. And he said, Just for equipment insurance? 16 A Yeah. That they wanted to know if the 17 equipment had any insurance on it. 18 Q This was after the tank came out? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And he didn't -- did he actually show you 21 a document at that point? Or that was later? 22 A No, no. No. 23 Q Then later, he did show you a document 24 that specifically didn't have your business's name on it; 25 is that correct? 1763 1 A Well, several weeks went by. And I was 2 just kind of avoiding the guy because I was so disgusted 3 with the whole thing. 4 And so at one point, we were talking about 5 it and -- because he kept telling me, well, you know, 6 this whole thing is all going to go away. There is no 7 problems. There is no -- you know, there is no reason 8 for you to be upset at me. 9 And so at one point in time, he told me, I 10 don't know why you are even upset at me. I didn't -- he 11 said, I didn't put your name on anything. I said, 12 Really? So tell me more. Maybe Gary Clark is lying to 13 me. I never looked at the papers myself. 14 He says, Yeah. I didn't put your name on 15 anything. 16 I said, You didn't? I said, Who did? 17 He said, Michael. 18 I said, Oh, you SOB. And I got up and 19 walked off. 20 So with that, I just -- I knew there was 21 no point in my -- well, let's see. I think the time 22 frame of that conversation may be prior to the one you 23 made reference to where I saw him on the street and he 24 was waving this piece of paper. I don't know what -- if 25 it was before or after that conversation. But anyway, 1764 1 he -- I gave you a copy of that thing. 2 He said, I don't know why you are mad at 3 me. He kind of threw this paper at me. Says, What are 4 you mad at me for? He says, Look a here. Your name is 5 on nothing. He give me this thing here, telling me that 6 he didn't put my name on anything. Which was a big 7 deal. I mean, he is right. My name isn't on that 8 thing. It didn't change anything else that he had done. 9 Q Okay. So that -- you don't remember one 10 way or the other, but maybe if I show you -- 11 A I don't remember which conversation came 12 first, but I put the date on that, as I do many times 13 when I receive stuff. I think I put the date on it. I 14 think you have a copy there. But it's just a card that 15 goes on a structure at the site of a construction site. 16 Q Right. And I recall the document. I just 17 don't know -- 18 A It said Demolition on the top of it. And 19 then it just has Roland's name on it. 20 Q Correct. Grand Jury Exhibit 22. 29 is a 21 a blank copy, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q But Robert Womack actually gave you a copy 24 of -- 25 A Yeah. 1765 1 Q -- this document without your name on it, 2 correct? 3 A Yeah. Made out to Roland. And up on top, 4 it says Demolition. 5 Q Okay. 6 A He was right. It didn't have my name on 7 it. 8 Q So he said, I never put your name on 9 anything? 10 A That's what the man said, and gave me 11 that. 12 Q Then Ron Hall and I came by your office, 13 correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And we told you about a document? 16 A Yes. 17 Q We didn't have copy of it with us, 18 correct? Or maybe we did? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q But in the next few -- 21 A Well, you did the one time you came in. 22 Q So a day or two later, we might have 23 brought it in? 24 A Yes. 25 Q This document came -- you can tell the 1766 1 Grand Jurors. Grand Jury Exhibit 26. Okay. Inside this 2 is a Jackson building permit application. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. And does it appear to be an 5 original? I can't tell. If you can tell? It's kind of 6 difficult. 7 A Looking at the stamp, I think it is. 8 Q Okay. And is that the document that under 9 the contractor lists your business's name? 10 A I was trying to see if the imprint... I 11 think that's an original. 12 I'm sorry? Is it? 13 Q Who is listed as contractor? 14 A Wolin -- where is it? Wolin and Sons. 15 Q And is your equipment insurance number on 16 there somewhere? 17 A No. 18 Q Okay. What numbers are on there? 19 A Well, the phone number, the license 20 number, expiration date of the license, Workers' 21 Compensation policy number and Jackson City license 22 number. 23 Q Did you give Mr. Womack permission to use 24 your Workmen's Comp. numbers? 25 A No. 1767 1 Q Have you asked your staff if they gave him 2 permission to use your Workmen's Comp. numbers? 3 A That's an interesting question. They -- 4 he walked in with this document with these spaces blank, 5 and told her he needed the information filled in right 6 then, because he was demoing the building. He told her 7 he needed the information. 8 Now, whether the fact that she filled it 9 out, thinking he was a friend, is that giving him 10 permission to use it? I don't believe so in my mind, 11 but -- 12 Q That's the answer to the question, Mr. 13 Wolin, if it's what you believe. 14 And then again, you have an idea that 15 there might be -- do you have an idea that someone might 16 contradict that story some day? 17 A I can believe anything after some of this. 18 Q Okay. And so Wolin and Sons on that 19 permit. At that point is the first time you had actually 20 seen in writing that your business -- 21 A First time I seen it in writing, yes. 22 Gary Clark had told me about it. 23 Q And that's the document you think Gary 24 Clark is talking about? 25 A I am not sure. Then you showed me another 1768 1 one. You had another one where he put my name on also. 2 So I am not sure which one Gary was referring to. 3 Q Okay. Well, this is the permit 4 application, correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. And then this document, which is 7 inside the same Grand Jury Exhibit 26, actually has Wolin 8 and Sons listed as the contractor also? 9 A The contractor, building contractor. 10 Q So that's two documents so far? 11 A Excuse me. If I might? 12 Q Sure. 13 A No. You can't answer. 14 Q I might able to ask you a question. 15 A Well, I was wondering, what's the 16 difference between these two forms? 17 Q Application. Issued. I believe. 18 A Okay. All right. Thank you. 19 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 20 32. Underground storage tank removal permit. 21 Speak loud enough they can hear you. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. Then on page 3, page 4. 24 A Four. 25 Q Okay. Paragraph 3? 1769 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. Who is listed as the tank and 3 piping hauler? 4 A Tank and piping hauler is Wolin and Sons, 5 Inc., Sutter Creek, 50 Main Street. 6 Q And who is listed as pipe and tank 7 disposal site? 8 A Same as above. 9 Q So basically, in your building downtown 10 Sutter Creek, where are you storing those pipes? Did you 11 have the tank there, too, Mr. Wolin? 12 A It's in the back room upstairs. 13 Q Okay. And on page 5, Paragraph 6-D, who 14 is listed as the contaminated soil hazardous waste 15 hauler? 16 A Wolin and Sons, Inc. 17 Q Is Plymouth your yard? Or what's in 18 Plymouth? Your house? 19 A Well, the -- what we call our old home 20 place, my grandparents' place that we use for our yard 21 has a Plymouth address. But because Mason -- years ago, 22 our address was -- prior to 1963, that was our address. 23 Q So that -- 24 A Give you some idea how long Dave Mason has 25 been... That is also a shop location. 1770 1 Q Did you give Dave Mason your permission to 2 put you in as contaminated soil hazardous waste hauler? 3 A Never one word with Dave Mason about any 4 of this. When you give it to me, I couldn't believe it. 5 This is absolutely never requested. I mean, I didn't 6 have a truck on the site. And there was no conversation. 7 Never did. I don't understand. All I can say is, as far 8 as I am concerned, these people are trying to frame me. 9 Q After you received this document that 10 showed that Wolin and Sons was on the permit application, 11 is that when you actually spoke with Womack and said, 12 Womack, I saw Wolin and Sons on a document. And that's 13 when he blamed Michael? If you recall? 14 A No, I don't recall. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I think -- that conversation may be of 17 just my confidence that Gary Clark was giving me the 18 truth. And I could tell by his response also that -- you 19 know, his body language told me that he knew he had done 20 wrong. And I mean, he -- it kind of -- kind of hesitated 21 for a minute, and then said, Well, they wanted to know if 22 there was -- if there was insurance on your equipment. 23 Which I told him was a pathetic statement. Because I 24 been around long enough to know that that isn't the case. 25 But I don't remember which came first, 1771 1 Dave, as far as the timing of those. 2 Q Okay. So then on Saturday morning, you 3 are videotaping. Saturday morning, May 2nd, you are 4 videotaping. 5 And what happens the rest of the day until 6 you leave, if you recall? 7 A Well, I took videotape primarily of 8 knocking the building down, just the grapple working 9 there and loading some of the materials out. 10 Q Okay. Did you have discussions with 11 Womack about what type of building he was going to build 12 and what type of subsurface work needed to be done and 13 things like that? 14 A Well, he was talking about, he was going 15 to build concrete structure so he would have parking on 16 top. I don't remember a whole lot of conversations with 17 him about the details of it. There was different people 18 that come by. And I can't really recall any detailed 19 conversation with Bob. 20 Q Okay. Years ago or a couple years ago -- 21 I have no idea. Could you tell the story about receiving 22 a phone call that your equipment was being used somewhere 23 in the county other than 505, and it wasn't you operating 24 the equipment. 25 A Yes. 1772 1 Q Okay. Briefly, that story. 2 A I believe you are referring to the grading 3 for Roland Womack's shop off of Highway 88. And that was 4 a D-8 tractor that Bob had asked if he could use. And 5 there was an individual that had worked for me for a 6 number of years that was retired, Bob Van De Pol, that 7 had worked for Bob at different times. 8 Well, he had worked for me. Was working 9 for me at different times. And Bob Van De Pol is an 10 excellent equipment operator. And he was retired. And 11 so Bob Womack wanted to use the machine and said he would 12 have Van De Pol operate it. And so I said fine. And he 13 graded out for Roland's shop out there up alongside 14 Roland's house. 15 Q Okay. I thought there was a story -- and 16 I could be wrong. A lot of stories here -- about you 17 received a call from the County at some point that your 18 equipment was doing something inappropriate and you said, 19 Don't talk to me. Talk to Bob. 20 Does that ring a bell? 21 A I saw Bill Smiley, who is -- was working 22 at the Building Department. I believe this is what you 23 are referring to, Dave. 24 And Bill asked me what was going on up 25 there? And I told him that the -- that Bob Womack was 1773 1 using the tractor to grade for a shop for Roland. 2 And so he asked me, he says, Well, gosh, 3 don't you believe you should have a permit to do that? 4 I said, Go talk to him. He is just using 5 my tractor like he would rent it from River City Rentals 6 or ANA or anybody else. So I told Bill Smiley, you know, 7 for him to go talk to Womack. 8 Q Okay. 9 A And that was -- I believe that's what you 10 are referring to. 11 Q Okay. So County contacts you because your 12 equipment is being used without a permit. And you say, 13 Go see the guy who is using it. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Is that essentially what you believe 16 happened here? 17 A Yes. I don't know really what took place 18 after that, as far as, you know, if he did get a permit 19 or didn't or was required one. I kind of assumed from 20 what Bill Smiley said that one should have been obtained. 21 Q Do you remember another story about 22 excavation at his own property without permits on Ridge 23 Road? 24 A Well, I have heard reference to that, but 25 I don't have any firsthand knowledge of it. 1774 1 Q Did you ever hear Bob joke about getting 2 away with not getting permits? 3 A Well, that's kind of been his philosophy 4 is, you go ahead and do it, and then deal with it 5 afterwards. He has inferred that, for his experience, 6 that was -- 7 Q The preferred way? 8 A Well, yeah, as far as his philosophy was. 9 Q So has he told you that before? 10 A Yeah, that's -- I don't remember in those 11 words, but yes. 12 Q Okay. And so at some point on Sunday, you 13 are running a little late and you leave with your video 14 camera? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And who was still on site at that point, 17 if you recall? 18 A Well, there was -- there was Mark Sherrill 19 and his driver, my son Bill on the excavator, Bob Womack, 20 and I believe Luke Womack was there. 21 Q Okay. And was June still there? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Okay. Do you remember seeing June 24 videotape that day? 25 A No. She was across the road in the car. 1775 1 So, you know, I didn't see her. I saw the car over 2 there. My wife stopped by and visited with her during 3 the time. So I know he was over there. 4 Q Okay. Your videotape. Someday after May 5 2nd, did you have a conversation with Mr. Womack 6 regarding the videotape. 7 Or a better question is: After Ron Hall 8 and I came to your office and had a discussion with you, 9 did you contact Bob Womack? And all of the steps that 10 led toward your contacting Bob Womack, please. 11 A Well, Bob Womack was in Canada or Alaska 12 about the time that you came in -- into my office. 13 Q Yeah. Okay. 14 A And I tried to reach him through Roland. 15 And I wanted his number so I could talk to him. They 16 wouldn't give me his number. He did call after several 17 days. I don't know. Three days. And I told him that 18 you were in the office and asking him what happened. 19 Because he told me everything was taken care of and that 20 there was -- as far as the tank removal, there was no 21 problem and everything had been taken care of. 22 So anyway, our conversation just kind of 23 went round and round about his story. 24 Q Same story about who he gave the tank to? 25 A Well, yeah. I don't remember the details 1776 1 of it. He kept repeating over and over. He said, I 2 don't know what I can do. 3 I said, Bob, you are the one that got me 4 into this. I expect you to straighten it out. 5 So he kept just repeating the story over 6 and over. 7 I said, Well, if you can't do nothing, I 8 guess you can't do nothing. I hung up the phone. 9 Q Okay. At some point did the videotape get 10 discussed between you and Mr. Womack? 11 A Oh, yes. After your -- after you and Ron 12 came in the office and you asked me about if I had taken 13 a videotape, and I said yes. 14 And at some conversation that was after 15 Bob got back from Alaska -- this was in August, I 16 guess -- I told him that you wanted to see the 17 videotape. And he told me not to let you see it. 18 Q In no uncertain terms? 19 A No uncertain terms. 20 Q Don't let the D.A.'s Office see the 21 videotape? 22 A He didn't use those letters, but that was 23 the message. 24 Q That wasn't what he said? 25 A That was what he meant. 1777 1 Q And did you say why? Or did that -- was 2 there a longer discussion? 3 A No. We -- we haven't had any long 4 discussions in the last six months. No, he didn't say 5 why. He said, Don't let those SOBs see it. Something to 6 that effect. 7 Q Something along those lines? 8 A No. He didn't say. 9 Q Just SOB is a generic group, so it would 10 include not just lawyers then. It would have been 11 investigators also? 12 A Excuse me? 13 Q It was anybody. Don't let anybody see 14 it? 15 A Well, he was referring to you and Ron. 16 Q Did he ever tell you that he was trying to 17 get everyone to tell the same story regarding what 18 happened with the tank? 19 A I don't know that he -- it was kind of 20 like, you know, I haven't done anything wrong. Those 21 guys can't do anything to me. And I am going to take 22 care of this. I don't understand why you are mad at me. 23 I didn't do anything to you. 24 I hadn't had any reason to talk to the guy 25 based on what happened, as far as I am concerned. So 1778 1 we -- the bottom line of what you are getting to is that 2 he expressed the -- well, he just said, Don't -- you 3 know, don't even talk to them. Don't give them the 4 tape. And I can't remember exact words, David. Just 5 that inference. 6 Q And on September 2nd, we got in a big 7 group and we met, correct? 8 A September 2nd? Yeah. It was up at the 9 courthouse, yes. 10 Q I call it the courthouse, too. But it was 11 the Begovich building? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And that meeting was 5:00 or 5:30 because 14 that way everybody who has a business could meet. Is 15 that your understanding? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Who was present at that meeting, if you 18 recall? 19 A I was late. 20 Q Okay. 21 A If you recall. Who all was present? 22 Yourself and Ron, George Ryan, Mr. Mason II and III. I am 23 not sure about those numbers, but both Masons. Bob 24 Womack, Mark Sherrill, myself and my son. 25 Q Okay. 1779 1 A That's about it. 2 Q We were discussing resolution of the 3 entire case as a package? 4 A Yes. 5 Q But were you there early enough to listen 6 to Mr. Womack tell the story about the mysterious person 7 he loaded the tank on? 8 A Yes, yes. 9 Q So you heard that whole story. 10 Was that the first time you heard that 11 story? 12 A Probably in that detail, yeah. 13 Q But you heard him say he had no idea whose 14 truck they loaded the tank on? 15 A Yes. Recently. 16 Q Recently you learned it was Bob Womack 17 that drove the truck. Was that a surprise to you? 18 A I think you told me that. 19 Q Was that a surprise? 20 A I believe most anything now. I don't -- 21 I don't have any direct knowledge of that, so -- but I 22 can't remember when you -- who said that, if it was you 23 or Ron who said that. 24 Q During the breaks in that meeting -- we 25 had a little bit of testimony earlier from George Ryan, 1780 1 but do you recall the substance of the conversations 2 about whether or not Bob was pretty sure he could find 3 the tank and that type of conversation? Because we 4 weren't present for that part of the meeting. 5 A Well, as I remember that meeting, when you 6 informed him, if the tank didn't show up, it was 7 $100,000. And then, if the tank did -- even if the tank 8 did show up, there would be another 35,000. And I 9 remember that part of the conversation, because I thought 10 this might get pretty tense. 11 Q Were you there at the beginning of the 12 meeting when he said -- 13 A No, not the very beginning. 14 Q You didn't hear him say: $500 or tell 15 them to F-off part of it? 16 A No. 17 But the -- you are talking about the 18 recess of the -- when you took a break? 19 Q When I walked out and said, Discuss it, 20 guys. We would really like to find the tank. 21 A George was telling Bob that this -- I 22 recalled -- I had no reason to make heavy notes about 23 it. I think George was impressing onto Bob he thought he 24 was going to have to deal with this. 25 As far as the details of that 1781 1 conversation, David, I don't know that I got a good 2 enough memory to recall. 3 Bob was saying that, if he advertised and 4 put a reward out, that he was sure that whoever had the 5 tank, if they knew they wouldn't get in trouble, would 6 come forward. He didn't really have any doubt about 7 that. Whoever had the tank would, if he put a $1,000 8 reward out there, they would bring the tank in. 9 Q I don't think I have shown you this, Mr. 10 Wolin. This is Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5. Bottom left 11 corner of the check. Can you read that? 12 A It says: Robert for tank reward, huh? 13 Q For how much? 14 A 500. 15 Q Do you see this account number? 16 A 0148-200-5XX. 17 Q Would it surprise you if this "Robert for 18 tank removal" was made, Pay to the order of an account of 19 Mr. Robert Womack? 20 A Excuse me? I -- you know, I have no 21 knowledge. I mean -- 22 Q Would it surprise you? 23 A No, it wouldn't surprise me at this point. 24 Q Did you ever see the advertisement posted 25 anywhere? 1782 1 A No. 2 Q Did Bob ever tell you he posted it 3 anywhere? 4 A No. 5 Q Did Bob ever tell you he was going to put 6 it in multiple newspapers, not just Amador Ledger 7 Dispatch? 8 A We haven't had a whole lot of 9 conversations. 10 Q Okay. So did he have any -- at any other 11 time, did he tell you not to tell the Grand Jury or the 12 District Attorney's Office what happened that weekend or 13 what was in your videotape? 14 A Well, I think, yeah, the one time he told 15 me not to let you see the tape. 16 Q Okay. But you have heard your son tell 17 the story that Mr. Womack came to see -- came 18 specifically to see him to discuss that issue. Is that 19 your understanding? 20 A That's my understanding. 21 Q Because you can't testify to the 22 substance, just the overall, your understanding of... 23 Did you hear Mr. Womack tell anyone else 24 not to cooperate with the District Attorney's Office? 25 A No, I haven't. I can't say that I have 1783 1 heard him say that to anyone else. 2 Q Let's say, in the last year, how many 3 people have told you not to cooperate with the District 4 Attorney's Office? 5 A One. 6 Q Say, in the last ten years, how many 7 people have told you not to cooperate with the District 8 Attorney's Office? 9 A One. 10 Q Whom? 11 A Bob Womack. 12 Q After you started negotiating with the 13 District Attorney's Office for a resolution on your own, 14 meaning you and your son, have you had any contact with 15 with Mr. Womack? 16 A I saw him -- let's see. Since I started 17 talking to you, there's probably been -- they have been 18 pretty scarce, Dave. There hasn't been a lot of 19 contact. 20 But I saw him very briefly with John 21 Carstensen. What was that? Two weeks ago now? Right 22 after my name was in the paper. 23 Q Did you put -- are you the mole? Did you 24 put all that story, what a great deal you got? 25 A Oh, yeah. In fact, that's what it was 1784 1 about. He was sitting with Bob, and John Carstensen. 2 I just said Hi to kind of both of 'em sitting there as I 3 was walking by. 4 And so John Carstensen said to me: You 5 cut a deal, you know, $2,000, and you got to go to 6 school. So he was laughing about it. He thought it was 7 real funny. 8 And so I said, Yep. 9 Said, That's a real deal. 10 I said, I would like to know the source of 11 that information. 12 And Bob said, I didn't put that in the 13 paper. He says, I been accused of doing that. I didn't 14 do it. I wasn't the one. 15 Q What did you tell me? You said you wished 16 your deal was that good? 17 A Yeah. I would like to have that deal. 18 Q So -- 19 A So anyway, I went on to tell John -- I 20 should have kept my mouth shut. I said, Yeah. Thanks to 21 your buddy sitting there, I am in this thing. 22 Q When you were on site on Saturday, May 23 2nd, was Carstensen by a couple of times? Or did you see 24 him? 25 A Excuse me? 1785 1 Q Did you see John Carstensen come by a 2 couple of times when you were there on Saturday? 3 A When we were demolishing the building? 4 Q Yes. 5 A No. He could have. I just don't remember 6 it. 7 Q You weren't there at all on Sunday? 8 A No. 9 Q And then, as far as you know, Mondani 10 hauled the excavator back before start of work on Monday? 11 A Yes, that's my -- yes, I am sure he did. 12 But I didn't see it. 13 Q You think there is another document with 14 your name on it, correct? I mean, if you do. 15 A No. I don't believe -- I think the one 16 document that he gave me where he said I did not -- you 17 know, Look at this. I did not put your name on 18 anything. So the application and the permit. And on the 19 permit, he actually signs the one that has my name on 20 it. The application doesn't have a signature, as I 21 recall. 22 Q So Bob Womack recently in the last year or 23 so has talked to you about filing bankruptcy and laughed 24 about it because everything was in the kids' name? 25 A Well, he said at one -- I don't know how 1786 1 many years ago, that there was some reference made to 2 that, yes. I don't remember if that's one, two or three 3 years ago. 4 Q Did Womack ever try to get you to sign a 5 letter to the Grand Jury to say that you were being 6 treated poorly and you wanted to tell your side of the 7 story? 8 A No, he didn't approach me with that. He 9 did my son. That -- let me retract that last comment. 10 I -- I believe that Bill said that he -- well, you know 11 better than I do what the testimony is on that. So I 12 personally was not present, but that's my understanding, 13 that he did. 14 MR. IREY: Could you mark this, please. 15 This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 78. 16 THE FOREPERSON: You want the contents? 17 MR. IREY: That would be great. 18 Q When I picked up the envelope, I felt this 19 document. There are two documents in Grand Jury Exhibit 20 78, correct? Two two-page documents? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And the one with an eight-and-a-half by 23 eleven paper, that's basically a copy similar to the copy 24 you were shown by Mr. Womack? 25 A Yes. 1787 1 Q And that lists the owner as Roland Womack? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And the contractor as? 4 A Owner builder. 5 Q Being Roland Womack? 6 A Yes. 7 Q So on this document, listed as contractor 8 wasn't Wolin and Sons? 9 A Correct. 10 Q So after you called Womack's bluff, he 11 brought this document to you and said, Look? 12 A Exactly. 13 Q And then later you -- from Ron Hall and 14 myself, you received the other document? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And this -- 17 A Doesn't have a date on that. 18 Q This is Mister -- I can't tell you. This 19 document may have come from someone other than yourself. 20 A Okay. 21 Q This appears to be the original of this 22 copy? 23 A Appears to be. 24 Q Okay. And attached to it is actually a 25 receipt from City of Jackson? Appears to be? 1788 1 A Yes. 2 Q And what date was that? I'm sorry. What 3 date and time? 4 A That's May 1, '98, huh? 5 Q What time of day? 6 A 2:08. 7 Q That pretty much matches your story then, 8 correct? 9 A Yes, it does. 10 Q He meets you, drives sees Michael, drives 11 gets the permit. 12 A Right. 13 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 14 Wolin at this time. If any Member of the Grand Jury has 15 a question or more than one question, I would be happy to 16 ask those questions of him. 17 THE WITNESS: Excuse me? 18 Q BY MR. IREY: Before I ask this question, 19 were you paid for renting your equipment? 20 A No. 21 Q Was it ever -- did he ever say, I will get 22 you the money next month? 23 A Never has offered. 24 Q Not once? 25 A No. 1789 1 Q And what's the piece of equipment rent for 2 per hour? 3 A Well, with the attachments -- we not only 4 have the grapple on this machine, some of the photographs 5 might show, there is -- 6 Q If you are talking about that machine, 7 could you describe the exhibit number, please. 8 A Exhibit 20. But on the -- this has a 9 grapple hand device here for picking up material. And 10 that quick couples by -- the operator can disconnect from 11 inside the cab, can set it down, grab a hydro hammer, 12 tool which stands six feet high, and he has the 13 capability of pulverizing concrete. 14 And so, with the hammer, the machine and 15 the grapple and the bucket, we -- I would think it would 16 be around $200 an hour would be the going rate for. 17 Q Per hour it actually operates? 18 A Yes, for that combination. 19 If you go down and -- you can't rent, 20 coincidentally, that combination of tools we have there 21 on the market. But if you could find it, you would be 22 paying at least 200. 23 Q So times 15 hours. 3,000 bucks? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Will you ever rent equipment to any 1790 1 Womack? I fed them the questions before. I wanted to 2 ask them. 3 A I don't have to think about it. I don't 4 believe so. 5 Q Mr. Wolin, your reputation is still very 6 good. Let this be -- this is a statement. I will try to 7 make it into a question. 8 Mr. Wolin, since your reputation is still 9 very good, do you think this is an experience -- I will 10 try one more time. 11 Mr. Wolin, do you still consider your 12 business's reputation a strong one and you to be a good 13 person and think that this will be chalked up to 14 experience as a lesson? 15 A Yes. And an education. 16 Q When Mr. Womack asked you to use your 17 equipment, did you know that this property he was going 18 to demolish was not his property? 19 A No. He told me he had bought it. 20 Q He told you he bought it? 21 A Yeah. 22 Q Did he say he Roland bought it? 23 A I didn't differentiate between that. If 24 he said he bought it or Roland bought it, I don't 25 remember. 1791 1 Q Do you remember if he said KRL bought it? 2 A Yeah. I can't say he didn't. 3 Q In your opinion, do you think Mr. Robert 4 Womack, with the experience and education, knew that he 5 needed more than a City permit to demolish and pull out 6 the tanks? 7 A I -- I'm sure that he knew what -- he 8 knows what the rules are. He has bought and sold a lot 9 of property. He was superintendent for Solano Paving in 10 Solano County in the '70s. 11 Q Big company? 12 A Yeah. And he has been involved in 13 construction in one way or another. He owned a concrete 14 transit operation like Brian has over here in Folsom. 15 Q Brian Drake? 16 A The guy has done a lot of business. He 17 knows. 18 Q Do you feel that Mr. Womack took advantage 19 of your friendship and used you? 20 A I would say that's pretty obvious. 21 Q And your family? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And your business? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Did he pay you for the loan of equipment? 1792 1 Or just send you flowers? Or not even flowers? Or call 2 you to thank you? 3 A None of the above. 4 Q Did Mr. Womack ask you to lie for him and 5 did you lie at any time? 6 A No, he didn't ask me to lie. It was just, 7 you know, don't let you guys see the video. I guess that 8 maybe is maybe basically the same thing. 9 Q The second half of it -- do you remember 10 the question? 11 A Excuse me? 12 Q And there is a second half. Do you 13 remember what the second half of the question was? 14 A No. 15 Q I will ask the whole question again. 16 Did Mr. Womack ask you to lie for him and 17 did you lie at any time? 18 A No. I can't say that he asked me to lie. 19 And I believe I have been giving you the truth. So no, I 20 haven't lied to you. 21 Q But he did try to dissuade you from giving 22 us information in a criminal investigation? 23 A Yes. 24 Q No doubt about it? 25 A No doubt about it. 1793 1 It's their questions, David. 2 Q Sometimes they get a little fancy. And I 3 have to think, Mr. Wolin. 4 Isn't it your responsibility to make sure 5 that when someone rents a piece of equipment, they carry 6 Workers' Compensation or not? 7 A That's a very practical -- it's a good 8 statement. But if that were true, A&E Rental and all the 9 rest of the rental places would have to have different 10 forms than what they have. I mean, when you rent a piece 11 of equipment to someone, and they are furnishing the 12 operators, the owner of the piece of equipment -- in my 13 experience, the Workmen's Compensation law is very clear, 14 it's the employer, the guy writing the check is 15 responsible for providing that. 16 So whoever owns the equipment has no 17 responsibility at all, as far as I am concerned, to see 18 that that party is covered with Workmen's Comp. 19 Q And a good analogy would be tool rentals? 20 A Exactly. 21 Q You want American Express. That's pretty 22 much it? 23 A What did you say about American Express? 24 Q They just want to rent the equipment? 25 A Yeah. Right. Give me the bucks. 1794 1 Q Whose responsibility is it to make sure 2 they have Workers' Compensation insurance? 3 A The employer. 4 Q And was Mr. Womack employing your son that 5 that weekend, if you know? 6 A Yes, that's my understanding. 7 Q He paid him by the hour? 8 A Yes. 9 Q You Wolin and Sons, Inc. didn't pay Billy 10 Wolin? 11 A Wolin and Sons, Inc. did not pay Billy 12 Wolin. 13 Q We have heard testimony that the site at 14 the old mill is extremely contaminated. Is that true? 15 A I don't have any firsthand experience of 16 that. I mean, I hear a lot of stories. But also, in 17 talking about the people connected with that property, 18 they say that they are spending a lot of money and doing 19 a lot to clean it up. But I don't have any firsthand 20 knowledge. 21 Q Do you know who Don is or Don's last name? 22 A Don? 23 Q Earlier we had someone at the old mill's 24 name was Don. He let Mark Sherrill dump on the property. 25 A Don Wilson. He worked for Fiberform. He 1795 1 is no longer there. 2 Q Still in the area? 3 A No. That was nothing -- it just the -- 4 that's a -- he had a very difficult job, and 5 reconstructing the old plywood plant to what Fiberform is 6 doing today. And Don Wilson was the -- their 7 superintendent of that operation. And the owners, whom I 8 can't think of their name right now, had some 9 difficulties over details that aren't important, you 10 know, to these -- it was a personal matter. 11 Q Between the superintendent and the owners? 12 A Yes. And so he was terminated. 13 Q Is he still in this part of the world? 14 A I haven't spoke to him. I have no idea 15 where he is. It was very unfortunate. I thought the guy 16 was doing a good job. It's one of those things that 17 happen. 18 Q Does your business bring in demolition 19 debris and dump it on that property? 20 A Excuse me? 21 Q Does your business bring demolition debris 22 and dump it on the old mill? 23 A Demolition debris, no. 24 Q Fill dirt? 25 A Yes. We -- Don wanted on the east side -- 1796 1 they bought about approximately ten acres from Sierra 2 Pacific, the old plywood building, and also part of -- 3 well, I guess most of the mill site, which would be just 4 north of the water tower that you see there. And they 5 wanted to excavate and level the area. 6 And I pointed out to them that they have 7 greenstone rock, is very expensive to excavate, and that 8 they might consider importing material rather than trying 9 to excavate the hard rock, to create this storage area 10 for inventory, would be to put fill in to create a level 11 area. 12 Q So instead of 165 bucks a yard, to turn it 13 into something level, you could bring in fill for eight 14 bucks a yard, plus trucking? 15 A Yeah. And in working there for Meeks, we 16 excavated along the north side of the new Meeks building 17 there for where that retaining wall is. And I asked Don 18 if he would like some of that clean material. Non-toxic 19 material, David. 20 Q You see me perk up? 21 A But clean material. And so yes, we put, I 22 don't know, maybe 50 or 100 loads there. I shouldn't 23 say. I don't know. I wasn't even here when that went 24 on. But that would be my guess of what it was. 25 MR. IREY: Hypothetically, if I have misplaced an 1797 1 earlier request, whoever wrote the request, to read at 2 the end. Could they rewrite that and I will make sure I 3 will read that into the record. I am still looking for 4 it though. 5 Q Has your son ever said to you that he did 6 not know he was removing the tank until late Saturday? 7 A Yes. Because I asked him when, you know, 8 when that -- when he became aware of that. And, in fact, 9 he told me that. He pointed out -- 10 Q Sorry. You can't testify to what he told 11 you. You can just testify to the subject matter. 12 Have you had discussions with your son 13 regarding what time of day Saturday the tank came out of 14 the ground? 15 A It was late in the afternoon. 16 Q That's when your understanding he first 17 learned of it? 18 A Yes. 19 Q So when you left 4:00, 4:30, Womack didn't 20 say, The next thing we are going to do is pull out the 21 tank? 22 A No. There hadn't been discussions about 23 us removing the tank. I knew the tank was going to come 24 out at some time because he was going to build a building 25 there. As far as him removing it then, no. 1798 1 Q It had not been discussed on Saturday? 2 A No. 3 Q With you? 4 A No. 5 Q If your workers are not trained in Haz 6 Mat, why are they working at Georgia Pacific mill 7 utilizing heavy equipment where the likelihood of Haz Mat 8 materials are present? 9 A To my knowledge, I don't know of any 10 hazardous waste materials involved in anything we are 11 doing. 12 As I understand it, the reason I make that 13 statement is, when a piece of property transfers today, 14 there is a certification for hazard free certification 15 that goes along with it. And again, just because we own 16 equipment and rent it, and in this case, we are renting 17 it to Fiberform up there, as the owner of equipment, we 18 assume that the owner knows what they are doing and... 19 Q And wouldn't subject himself to the 20 liability of having your workers work in hazardous 21 conditions without letting you know? 22 A No. And we wouldn't -- under the normal 23 course of business, the owner of equipment renting it 24 would not investigate whether or not the party he is 25 working for and the property of the person he is working 1799 1 for has hazardous materials on it. I mean, unless there 2 is something obvious, I mean, if you see oil when you are 3 there or something. But no, we normally don't. 4 Q But there was one project you knew you 5 were going to work in some type of asbestos rock, 6 correct? 7 A That was a school. San Andreas High 8 School. And they -- they had imported over prior years 9 material that had asbestos in it. And in that contract, 10 we were -- our workers were obligated or we -- it was 11 mandated that we train our people that work on that site. 12 Q And you did? 13 A Yes. But that's -- that was because there 14 was asbestos there and the owner knew it was there. 15 Q Okay. Do you have any idea who might know 16 where Don Wilson could be reached? 17 A I have a card with his phone numbers. 18 Q Could you provide those to Investigator 19 Hall? 20 A Sure. Sure. 21 Q Do you believe Bob Womack to be an honest 22 businessman? You are under oath. 23 A With my experience, I will have to say 24 that I -- I can't say that he has been honest with me. 25 Q He sat there that night on September 2nd 1800 1 with 15 or 12 people in the room and went through this 2 whole sequence of stuff that you now know to be lies. 3 Isn't that true? 4 A That's the way I see it, yes. 5 Q So a bunch of prosecutors and 6 investigators, but also businessmen, after they had 7 already worked twelve hours, had to sit around a table 8 and listen to him pontificate. I think that's the right 9 word. 10 Is that kind of the way you took it? 11 A That's the way it happened, yes. 12 Q And, in fact, I just remember, didn't 13 you -- weren't you unhappy with Ron Hall toward the 14 start of that meeting for some statement that Womack said 15 that Ron Hall said or something like that? Do you 16 recall? 17 A Yes, I recall. Because I was very upset 18 with you and/or both of you and Ron Hall. 19 Q What did we do? 20 A Well, you came into my office, and you 21 asked me all these questions. And I told you just about 22 the same I have told you here. 23 And there wasn't a week or ten days later 24 that Womack flags me down. I thought he was he going to 25 tear my head off. He come roaring at me saying -- what's 1801 1 the highway patrolman's name? I can't remember his name. 2 Q Russ Moore? 3 A No. 4 Q Bill Admire? 5 A Yes, that retired officer Bill Admire told 6 Bob Womack that you or Ron Hall told -- anyway, it went 7 from you and Ron Hall through the D.A.'s Office or 8 somewhere to this retired Highway Patrolman back to Bob 9 Womack that I said Mark Sherrill hauled the tank off. 10 I said, Bob, I didn't say that. I wasn't 11 even there. How could I be saying that. 12 And so Mark Sherrill and Bob Womack were 13 both very upset with me. They said, What the hell did 14 you say that for? I said, I wasn't there. I didn't say 15 that. They said, We know you said that because it came 16 from the Highway Patrol. 17 So in that meeting that night, when you 18 went to take a break, I asked you if I could clarify 19 something. And so I asked you and Ron Hall together, did 20 I tell you that? And you or Ron Hall admitted that I 21 didn't say that. I think that's what you are referring 22 to. 23 Q You didn't say it, did you? 24 A No, I didn't. 25 Q Did you believe Ron Hall that he didn't 1802 1 say it of you? 2 A I don't know who said what. I just wanted 3 to clarify I didn't tell you people that. So where that 4 story came from, how it went -- I think one of you said 5 something, you have to do whatever you have to do to get 6 information, so... Was that the response? 7 Q I can't recall. 8 A Right. 9 Q I haven't talked to Bill Admire. 10 A Excuse me? 11 Q I have not talked to Bill Admire. 12 A I am not worried about it. I just wanted 13 to clarify it. 14 Q But you were closer than -- even before 15 you knew that it was Mark Sherrill or Bob Womack, you 16 were closer than anybody could have known in September, 17 huh? ESP or something. 18 Do you believe Bob Womack -- whoops! 19 Can't keep asking that. 20 Do you plan to pursue legal action against 21 Bob Womack for illegally using your business name? 22 A I don't know where this is going. I don't 23 know what all the repercussions are going to be. I don't 24 know what the cost is going to be before this whole thing 25 is over with. 1803 1 I have, you know, it's been the strangest 2 experience of my life. And I reserve comment. Because I 3 don't know if I may dodge that, because it depends on 4 where it goes from here and what all happens. 5 Q If Bob Womack had been told ahead of time 6 by the City of Jackson and the County that he needed to 7 get permits and that permit would have only cost $100, do 8 you think that would have saved the citizens of Amador 9 County and the taxpayers of the State of California a lot 10 of time, energy and money? 11 A I really don't know, David. This -- some 12 of this is so bizarre, I am totally confused as to why 13 what's been going on has been going on. And I wake up at 14 night trying to figure out, you know, how I got to where 15 I am in this thing. Or why the whole thing has been 16 going on. 17 Q But if -- hypothetically, if Bob Womack 18 told the Board of Supervisors on May 4th what happened to 19 the underground storage tank, do you think it would have 20 saved a lot of time, energy and money? 21 A Oh, definitely. 22 Q Do you know of other illegal things Mr. 23 Womack has done? 24 A Not that I can -- you know, I rode with 25 him once when he was going over the speed limit. No, I 1804 1 can't say that. I know I feel this has been a horrible 2 experience. 3 Because I have -- knowing Bob and June and 4 doing things with 'em, that is, you know, traveling in 5 Mexico with that group was one of the most fun times I 6 ever had. And, you know, they are really likable 7 people. And very generous. He is always buying my 8 wife -- you know, we go someplace and he is always buying 9 my wife things. And this whole thing is so bizarre that 10 I just really kind of crushed in a way. But that's life, 11 I guess. 12 Q Do you think it's because he cut corners 13 for ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty years, and finally 14 someone called him on it? Do you think that's why it's 15 escalated so much? 16 A I guess. You know, I don't understand 17 why, you know. It just -- I think you are probably as 18 close as any explanation would be. 19 Q Do you feel you will be able to trust Bob 20 Womack again? 21 A No, I don't. No, I don't. I won't have 22 nothing to do with him. 23 Q Do you feel better now you have been able 24 to express the truth? 25 A Well, this is not a -- it's not a pleasant 1805 1 experience. I felt personally that these people were 2 friends. And this caught me by such surprise. And it's 3 made me feel sick, tell you the truth. It's -- I don't 4 know how to explain it. It's just -- I can't say I feel 5 better. I feel awful about the whole thing. 6 Q It wasn't a lesson you needed to learn? 7 A Yes. Thank you. 8 Q Do you feel that Bob Womack would bend or 9 ignore laws to achieve his goals? 10 A Kind of points to that, yeah. 11 Q Have you any personal experience or 12 observation of this besides earthmoving without permits 13 and speeding? 14 A No, I can't say that I have. 15 Q When Womack talked about demolishing the 16 station, did it seem to you that, in fact, all -- okay. 17 This is me; not a bad question. 18 When Womack talked about demolishing the 19 station, did it seem to you, in fact, that that was all 20 that was going to happen, i.e., that the tank was not 21 going to be dealt with that day? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did Billy Junior ever tell you that Womack 24 had told him to tell anyone asking questions that he 25 didn't know what happened to the tank? 1806 1 A I'm sorry? 2 Q Did Billy Junior ever tell you that Womack 3 had told him to tell anyone asking questions that he 4 didn't know what happened to the tank? 5 A Yeah. That -- that's the way I understand 6 it. There was a conversation where Bob had expressed 7 Bill to not be straightforward in that response. 8 Q Okay. Did Billy Junior come to you after 9 May 2nd about any concerns he had about what happened at 10 the job site? 11 A Yes, we discussed it. In fact, which 12 brings it to mind. You reminded me of an 18-minute phone 13 conversation between Bob and I after the fact. Remember? 14 Q I can't testify. But okay. Would that 15 have been after I mentioned -- okay. I can ask a 16 question. 17 At some time, did I bring to you 18 information that, during the search warrant, I had seized 19 phone records. And those phone records indicated that 20 you had talked to Womack for 18 minutes? 21 A Yes, that's what you said. 22 Q Okay. And that reminds you of something? 23 A Yes. The conversation regarding the tank. 24 Q Okay. Go ahead, please. 25 A And that in that conversation, when I 1807 1 asked him about, What in H was going on? He expressed 2 that that tank was -- had only been in the ground, like, 3 a year and a half? 4 Q You are testifying. Whatever Bob told 5 you. 6 A Yeah, that it had only been in the ground 7 a short while. Apparently, Mason had replaced the old 8 tank with a new tank. And because that tank had only 9 been in the ground, like, less than two years, that there 10 was nothing to worry about. 11 Q Okay. 12 A Because you had asked -- you had asked me 13 about that conversation. And I have been trying to 14 search about what we was talking about. Because after 15 the fact, after, you know, I learned that this had went 16 on, I remember we had this conversation. I think that's 17 probably the time that that took place. 18 Q Hypothetically, because this is a 19 marked-up copy -- I can probably get a better copy of the 20 phone search warrant -- it's not a phone search 21 warrant -- of the seized phone records. 22 But on Monday, 5/4, at 1:36 in the 23 afternoon, do you think you received a phone call from 24 Bob Womack? 25 A Apparently, according to what you have, 1808 1 yes. 2 Q At 267-9111? 3 A Yes. 4 Q That's your business? 5 A I assume I was the one he was talking to. 6 Q And he called and said not to worry? 7 A Well, see. The thing I can't tell you at 8 this time, Dave, is I don't -- I don't have recollection 9 of if that's before or after Gary called me. 10 Q That's day one at -- 11 A So this is on Monday? 12 Q Monday. 13 A Yeah. So Gary hadn't called me then. 14 Q Right. So I guess -- 15 A I didn't know I was in the midst of this 16 thing. 17 Q So I guess my question is, what would -- 18 he would have been calling and saying, if you are ever 19 contacted by anyone, just remember that it was a new 20 tank? 21 A Yeah. See, because there was conversation 22 about the tank. And I remember him telling me about 23 that. And I assume that, as near as my recollection 24 would be, that that would have been the time that we 25 would have had that conversation. I remember, because 1809 1 you have asked me a couple of times about that 2 conversation at that time. And I can't recall what it 3 was, because my frame of mind at that time, I didn't know 4 I was submerged in this thing. 5 Q That was just Monday after you had seen 6 him on Saturday? 7 A We might have been talking about, you 8 know, something else. There was a piece of property up 9 in Volcano that he was talking about buying. And I went 10 up and looked at it. 11 Q He tried to get you to buy land with him a 12 a couple times? 13 A Yeah. 14 Q But at that point, you had no knowledge on 15 Monday -- 16 A No. It wasn't until Gary Clark called me 17 that I realized where I was. 18 Q Do you feel your son was used to do 19 something illegal by Womack because of your past business 20 and personal relationship? 21 A Yes. 22 Q It would have been hard for Billy to say 23 no that weekend? 24 A Well, I wish he would have, but -- 25 Q He is a grown man, makes his own 1810 1 decisions? 2 A Yep. 3 Q The vacation to Mexico with Robert Womack, 4 did Dave Mason III and Tom Bamert go with you or meet you 5 in Mexico? 6 A No. 7 Q Would your insurance have covered an 8 injury on 5/2/98? 9 A What type? 10 Q Okay. Would your insurance have covered 11 all types of injuries on 5/2/98? 12 A No. 13 Q What types of injuries would it not have 14 covered? 15 A It would not cover Workmen's Comp., 16 because we didn't have anybody on the payroll there. 17 On liability, who knows? My name was 18 listed as contractor. That would be up to the courts to 19 differentiate if it was someone that fell or was injured 20 otherwise. 21 Q Was Don Wilson employed at the mill 22 between May 1st, 1998 and June 1st, 1998? 23 A I believe yes. 24 MR. IREY: Anyone rewrite that thing that I asked 25 them to rewrite? 1811 1 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Wolin, did you need some 2 more water? You have some right there. It's right over 3 there. 4 MR. IREY: Here you go. 5 Q Do you feel this matter has escalated 6 higher than it should have? 7 A No, I don't. I think that, as I told you 8 people a long time ago when I first -- when you first 9 came in and I have told the County people the same thing, 10 you know, rules are rules. And I think you guys are just 11 trying to do a job. 12 I can't believe this process, but it's -- 13 it's not -- I don't see it being -- escalating to where 14 it is I don't see being the fault of the City or the 15 County or you people. 16 MR. IREY: I have to have a huddle here. Okay. 17 Q Do you know how he got caught? Or do you 18 think it was a real misunderstanding on the permits? 19 A I don't know that he got caught. 20 Q Do you feel Mr. Mason III has any 21 responsibility since he owned the property only? What is 22 your opinion? 23 A You know, I don't know the inner workings 24 of that. Dave Mason obviously knows the rules. He has 25 been dealing with petroleum facilities for quite a 1812 1 while. 2 And so what am I trying to answer here? 3 Q Do you feel that Mr. Mason III has any 4 responsibility since he owned the property only? What is 5 your opinion? 6 A Well, my opinion is that he shouldn't be 7 putting my name on documents for doing things that I 8 didn't do, number one. 9 And one of the things I will elaborate on 10 that really upsets me -- maybe I already said this. But 11 I talked to him once about this matter when Mr. Womack 12 was in Canada or Alaska, wherever he was. And I might be 13 repeating myself. I don't know. 14 But I called Dave. I know when this -- 15 this is right after you were in my office or Ron was in 16 the office, my office and asking all these questions. 17 And I couldn't get ahold -- I called Roland Womack, 18 talked to Nadine. She would not give me Bob's number. 19 Q Did she say why? 20 A What? 21 Q Did she say why she wouldn't give you his 22 number? 23 A No. It was like he wasn't available. I 24 know they talk all the time when he travels a lot. 25 But anyway, so then I called Dave Mason to 1813 1 find out what was going on. Sylvia and I had been gone 2 for, like, three weeks. 3 Q Sylvia being your wife? 4 A Yes. So I called Dave to ask him just, 5 What's going on? Because Bob had told me a month and a 6 half earlier that, you know, this whole thing is going 7 away. Nothing is happening. 8 Q Did he tell you he had it fixed? Or did 9 he tell you he was dealing with the Board? 10 A Yeah. It's like, Ah, don't. There is 11 nothing there. You know. He knew I was mad at him and 12 was just blowing it off saying, There is nothing there. 13 So anyway, I called Dave and asked him. 14 And so I proceeded to tell Dave Mason that Womack had put 15 my name on as contractor without my knowledge and about 16 these other documents. And Mr. Mason said, Gee, that's 17 not right. He shouldn't have done that. 18 Unfortunately, he didn't bother to tell me 19 he put my name down as hauling the stuff and receiving 20 it. 21 Q Its not funny. I apologize for smiling, 22 but -- 23 A So I don't know if I answered your 24 question. 25 Q I think you did. 1814 1 That night on September 2nd when we had 2 that meeting, I think an earlier witness -- and again, as 3 Ron Hall may have told you on September 2nd, we can make 4 stuff up to try to trick you. 5 A I know he said that. 6 Q But that's not what I am trying to do. 7 It's my understanding Womack decided that 8 night he was he going to the Grand Jury, that he said, We 9 will get the tank back and then we will just tell our 10 story to the Grand Jury. 11 Did he say that, so the whole ten days we 12 were waiting around for settlement was just a myth? Or 13 something to that effect? 14 A I -- you know, I really don't know, Dave. 15 I am a little confused about what motives have been going 16 on. 17 Q But did he sound on that night that, 18 absolutely, the tank was coming back? 19 A Oh, yeah. There was no question from the 20 comments he made to me the inference was, yeah, I will 21 get the tank back. 22 Q That night. That was what he would say, I 23 will get the tank back? 24 A That's the way I read it, yes. 25 Q So did he make it sound like the 1815 1 advertisement in the newspaper was just to throw the 2 hounds off the track? 3 A I guess you could say that. But it was -- 4 it was like, There is no question, you know. We will put 5 out $1,000 reward and there is no question, get the tank 6 back. 7 MR. IREY: Any other questions of the Grand 8 Jurors? I am going to go ahead and read these two 9 statements in. These people have -- these jurors have 10 listened to 50 plus witnesses, and there are two notes. 11 Mr. Wolin, we appreciate your cooperation 12 on this matter. And we thank you for your honesty. We 13 appreciate a witness like you. 14 And I thank you for your time. At this 15 time, the Foreman has an admonition, Mr. Wolin. 16 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished -- actually, 17 I admonished him at the recess. 18 So Mr. Wolin, at this time, the same 19 admonition that I read to you still applies. So if I 20 could get you just to initial right here. That just 21 shows that you understand this is the second time. 22 Could you put down 4:40. 23 Thank you very much. 24 Q BY MR. IREY: Mr. Wolin, I think we marked 25 this Grand Jury Exhibit 77. That's basically an employee 1816 1 list, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q With average cost per hour of each of your 4 employees? 5 A Yes. 6 MR. IREY: No further questions. Again, thank 7 you. 8 Mr. Foreman, we have no more witnesses. 9 But I could bring in Ron Hall if we want to go until 10 5:00. This might be a nice time to break for the day, 11 for the court reporter and her hard work. 12 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. Okay. 13 MR. IREY: Mr. Wolin, they won't let me keep your 14 jacket. 15 GRAND JUROR: Thank you, sir. Thank you. 16 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Final admonishment for 17 the day. 18 GRAND JUROR: Question. 19 THE FOREPERSON: Is it one we can answer off the 20 record so that -- okay. 21 The Grand Jurors are admonished they are 22 not to -- that they are not to form or express any 23 opinions about this case or discuss it among themselves 24 until the Grand Jury receives the case for deliberation. 25 In addition, no inspection of evidence should be 1817 1 conducted without the permission of the Foreperson and on 2 the advice of the prosecuting attorney. 3 A violation of this rule can could result 4 in a charge of contempt against a Grand Juror who would 5 investigate or view any matters with regard to this case 6 without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 7 And we adjourn until 9:00 a.m. tomorrow 8 morning. We are off the record. 9 (Whereupon, the proceedings recessed at 4:38 p.m.) 10 11 ---oOo--- 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1818 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ) ss. 4 COUNTY OF TUOLUMNE ) 5 6 I, JAN L. BENEDETTI, CSR, hereby certify that I 7 was duly appointed and qualified to take the foregoing 8 matter; 9 That acting as such reporter, I took down in 10 stenotype notes the testimony given and proceedings 11 had; 12 That I thereafter transcribed said shorthand 13 into typewritten longhand, the above and 14 foregoing pages being a full, true and correct 15 transcription of the testimony given and proceedings 16 had. 17 18 19 20 21 22 _____________________________ 23 JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG 24 25