IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF AMADOR ---oOo--- The People of the State of California) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) No. 98-0767 ) ROBERT ROLAND WOMACK, DAVID STERLING ) MASON III and MARK SHERRILL, ) Defendants. ) _____________________________________) PROCEEDINGS HELD BEFORE THE GRAND JURY NOVEMBER 18, 1998 VOLUME V APPEARANCES: For the People: DAVID J. IREY Deputy District Attorney Reported by: JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG, CSR No. 4643 1286 1 ---oOo--- 2 WITNESS INDEX Page 3 ROLAND WOMACK 4 Examination by Mr. Irey 1312 5 ROY TOMS Examination by Mr. Irey 1425 6 NICK TOMS 7 Examination by Mr. Irey 1441 8 KIMBERLY MOORE Examination by Mr. Irey 1456 9 RON BROWN 10 Examination by Mr. Irey 1500 11 JAKE STROM Examination by Mr. Irey 1559 12 BILL ADMIRE 13 Examination by Mr. Irey 1568 14 MIKE WOMACK Examination by Mr. Irey 1577 15 DOUG MONDANI 16 Examination by Mr. Irey 1592 17 ---oOo--- 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1287 1 E X H I B I T S 2 Exhibit No. Description Ref. 3 4 14 Certificate of Tank Destruction 1337 5 18 George Ryan's File 1343 6 28 Building Department Street File 1414 7 31 Original Check 1410 8 48 Business Cards 1474 9 50 List of Property 1474 10 58 Voluntary Withdrawal from 1466 Partnership 11 59 Voluntary Withdrawal from 1464 12 Partnership 13 60 Voluntary Withdrawal from 1468 Partnership 14 66 Check to Hernandez 1334 15 67 Check to Hernandez 1334 16 70 Letter from George Ryan 1325 17 71 Roland Womack's File 1367 18 72 Check Register 1478 19 73 Information sent to Mr. Brown 1513 20 ---oOo--- 21 22 23 24 25 1288 1 JACKSON, CALIF., TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 18, 1998, 9:30 A.M. 2 BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF AMADOR COUNTY 3 ---oOo--- 4 THE FOREPERSON: We will call roll. 5 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 6 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Here. 7 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 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IREY: Roland Womack. 2 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Womack, if you could step 3 up here and remain standing, please, and raise your right 4 hand. 5 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 6 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 7 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 8 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 9 THE WITNESS: I do. 10 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 11 12 (TIME NOTED: 9:57 A.M.) 13 ---oOo--- 14 ROLAND WOMACK 15 Called as a witness herein by the People, 16 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 17 and testified as follows: 18 19 MR. IREY: Mr. Womack, could you -- I apologize. 20 Yes, Mr. Foreman. If you could read that admonition 21 also. 22 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Mr. Womack, you are 23 advised under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution of 24 the United States and also under Article 1 of the 25 California Constitution that you have a privilege against 1312 1 self-incrimination. That is to say, you do not have to 2 answer any questions that may tend to incriminate you or 3 subject you to punishment for a crime. And you can 4 refuse to answer any such questions by stating that the 5 answer may tend to incriminate you. 6 Do you understand? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 8 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 9 10 EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. IREY: 12 Q Mr. Womack, I wanted to additionally read 13 a statute to you. Penal Code Section 118, what 14 constitutes perjury. 15 "Every person who, having taken an oath 16 that he or she will testify, declare, depose or 17 certify truly before any competent tribunal, 18 officer or person in any of the cases in which the 19 oath made by law of the State of California be 20 administered, willfully and contrary to the oath 21 states as true any material matter which he or she 22 knows to be false, and every person who testifies, 23 declares, deposes or certifies under penalty of 24 perjury in any case -- in any of the cases in 25 which the testimony, declarations, depositions or 1313 1 certification is permitted by law of the State of 2 California under penalty of perjury, and willfully 3 states as true any material matter which he or she 4 knows to be false is guilty of perjury. 5 "This subdivision is applicable 6 whether the statement or testimony, declaration, 7 deposition or certification is made or subscribed 8 within or without the State of California. 9 Perjury is punishable by two, four or six years in 10 prison." 11 With that said, Mr. Womack, are you going 12 to use your Constitutional rights and not answer any 13 questions based on your Fifth Amendment right to 14 self-incrimination? 15 A It depends what's asked, I guess. 16 Q Okay. Mr. Womack, if you could spell your 17 entire name for the record and give your date of birth. 18 A R-O-L-A-N-D, E-R-N-E-S-T, W-O-M-A-C-K. 19 Q Mr. Womack -- 20 A You want date of birth? 21 Q Sure, please. 22 A 5/27/63. 23 Q Last person in the back row needs to hear 24 you, Mr. Womack. And if possible, if you could give 25 audible answers, instead of shaking your head or uh-huhs 1314 1 for the court reporter, please. 2 A Sorry. 3 Q Are you nervous, Mr. Womack? 4 A A little bit. 5 Q How many times have you testified in the 6 past? 7 A This is the first. 8 Q Okay. Again, I don't think they can hear 9 you in the back. You are going to need to -- 10 A Okay. 11 Q A little louder. Okay? 12 A Okay. 13 Q Thanks. You are a businessman in town, 14 Mr. Womack? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And what is your primary business? 17 A I am a dentist. 18 Q Okay. In order to become a dentist, do 19 you have to go to school? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. And then do you have to do some 22 type of residency? 23 A No. 24 Q Okay. So you go to school. Where did you 25 go to dental school? 1315 1 A UOP in San Francisco. 2 Q Okay. You graduated from there? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And then are there some types of board 5 certifications required? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And what year did you take those board 8 certifications? 9 A 1988. 10 Q And since 1988, then you have been what's 11 called a board-certified dentist? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Have you always practiced in Jackson, 14 California? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And has anybody, if you recall, told you 17 just to answer yes or no today? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you have a counsel in this case? 20 A Mmmm... No, not really. I haven't spoken 21 to an attorney or anything about it. 22 Q You have not? 23 A No. 24 Q Are there rules to being a dentist, 25 certain things you have to comply with in order to 1316 1 maintain your license? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Schooling? 4 A Yes. CE courses. 5 Q And CE is continuing education? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you have to do that or otherwise they 8 take your license away? 9 A Right. 10 Q Any other rules or techniques or 11 requirements of being a dentist? 12 A Mmmm... Code of Ethics. There is OSHA 13 regulations. Those are the main ones that I know. 14 Q Ways to handle needles, things like that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. And you try to comply with those? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q If you didn't comply with those, that 19 would be a violation of the law? 20 A Mm-hmm, yes. 21 Q Okay. And a violation of the law, they 22 have some penalties that are associated with them. Is 23 that your understanding? 24 A Mm-hmm, yes. 25 Q From, Please don't do it again, Mr. 1317 1 Womack, to taking your license away? 2 A Right. 3 Q Okay. And then let's say, with a 4 building, permits are required with that sometimes? 5 A I assume so, yeah. 6 Q The building on Sutter Street. Did you 7 start work on that building without permits? 8 A My dental office, you are referring to? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A No. 11 Q Did you do more work than what was in your 12 permits? 13 A I don't believe so. 14 Q Okay. So your brother testified earlier 15 this week. 16 How many times have you talked to your 17 brother Luke since Monday? 18 A I haven't talked to him. 19 Q At all? 20 A Nope. 21 Q If you know, how many times has your dad 22 talked to him? 23 A I don't know if he has talked to him. He 24 hasn't said. 25 Q How many times have you spoken with your 1318 1 dad since Monday? 2 A Couple times. 3 Q Did you have breakfast with him this 4 morning? 5 A No. 6 Q Who owns that '78 four-wheel drive pickup 7 that Luke used to own? 8 A Yellow one? 9 Q I don't know what color it is. 10 A If it's the yellow one, it's not 11 four-wheel drive. Luke or my dad. 12 Q How many cars does your dad own? 13 A Two, I think. 14 Q What cars? 15 A I think that pickup is probably in his 16 name and possibly the Navigator, Lincoln Navigator. 17 Q Okay. We are probably going to be here a 18 few hours, Mr. Womack. So if at any time you need to 19 take a break -- in fact, Mr. Foreman, I think that, if 20 possible, if we could take breaks maybe every 45 minutes 21 or an hour for just five minutes. I think it's going to 22 be a pretty long morning. 23 It's up to the Grand Jury, of course. 24 THE FOREPERSON: At this point, we will go to 25 11:00. 1319 1 MR. IREY: That's fine. 2 Q So Mr. Womack, I have already had some 3 indications from the Members of the Jury that they would 4 like -- did I say Womack or Wolin? Nobody can answer 5 that. If I called you Mr. Wolin, I apologize. 6 Mr. Womack, people in the back row 7 definitely need to hear what you have to say. They have 8 been waiting quite a long period of time. 9 THE FOREPERSON: At this time, should we activate 10 the microphone? 11 MR. IREY: All technological whizzes. 12 THE FOREPERSON: We know where the control are. 13 MR. IREY: No need to put Mr. Womack out. 14 Q Count one through ten. Give your name, 15 please. 16 A One, two, three, four, five. 17 (Pause in proceedings.) 18 Q BY MR. IREY: Mr. Womack, if at all 19 possible, but you don't have to follow my instructions 20 completely at this time. At some point, I will make a 21 determination whether or not I have to treat you as an 22 adverse witness. 23 Essentially, once I do that, I could say, 24 Isn't it true A, B, C, D? And then you have to answer 25 those questions until a point where you make a decision 1320 1 that you don't want to -- that you want to impose any of 2 your constitutionally allowed rights, which is perfectly 3 okay. 4 But at this point, I would like you to try 5 to answer narratives when you have the ability. So my 6 question goes something like this: Other than the two 7 cars, the Navigator and the pickup, the '78 pickup, what 8 other cars do you think your father currently owns? 9 A I don't think there is any other cars. 10 Q Okay. So what cars do you think KRL owns? 11 A Mmmm... There is a Lincoln Continental. 12 There is a '34 Ford. We have a '57 T-bird, a '62 Chevy. 13 And we sold one. That's probably it. I don't have the 14 titles. You know that. 15 Q We can show those to you, though? 16 A Okay. 17 Q We are just asking you what you remember 18 owning. 19 A Okay. 20 Q For instance, if you ask -- 21 hypothetically, if you asked the person next to your 22 business, What cars do you own? Do you think that person 23 would be able to answer without looking at the titles? 24 A Depends how many cars and situation. 25 Q Okay. So we are trying to learn in this 1321 1 set of questions -- I can't tell you what we are trying 2 to learn. 3 Without showing you documentation, we are 4 trying to see what your best recollection is of some of 5 these issues. 6 A All right. 7 Q Okay. So the best recollection is, Dad 8 owns two cars, this Ford pickup -- what if your brother 9 Luke told us he traded the Ford pickup straight across to 10 KRL for a '92 pickup? I'm sorry. I will rephrase that. 11 What if your brother -- rephrase this. 12 Do you think your brother was telling us 13 the truth when can he said he traded his '78 pickup 14 straight across for the '92 pickup to KRL? 15 A Well, he has HAD the '92 pickup for a few 16 years. I am not sure on the title, if that was ever 17 transferred over into his name or if it's still in 18 KRL's. I would have to look at the title. I thought the 19 yellow pickup may still be in his name. I don't know if 20 it's in my dad's name yet or not. 21 Q So Luke insures your dad when he drives 22 it? Or it's like a four-year loan? 23 A My dad has his own insurance. 24 Q Okay. But he is listed as the owner, is 25 Luke? 1322 1 A Luke or my dad. I am not sure at this 2 time. 3 Q Okay. And who owns the '92? 4 A Again, it's either Luke's name or KRL's. 5 I don't know if it ever got transferred over to his name. 6 Q Okay. So at this point, you have said it 7 might be in Luke's name, it might be in KRL's name and it 8 might be in your dad's name. 9 A Not the '92. I don't think the '92 was 10 ever in my dad's name. 11 Q The '78 might be in your dad's name, might 12 be in Luke's name, might be in KRL's name? 13 A I think Luke or my dad's. I don't think 14 KRL would have an interest in it. 15 Q Okay. What other types of motor vehicles 16 does KRL own? 17 A A couple dune buggies, a couple street 18 bikes. Besides a tractor and a few things. But they are 19 not, you know, vehicles. 20 Q Motor home? 21 A Mmmm... No, I don't believe so. 22 Q Motor home registered in Oregon, kept in 23 Oregon, '93? 24 A Trailer in Oregon. I don't know if it's 25 registered as a motor home. It's a trailer. 1323 1 Q Do you remember when your dad or KRL 2 bought the Navigator? 3 A It's a '96, I think, '97. 4 Q '98 maybe? 5 A Could be. '97. It's pretty new. 6 Q In the last -- how old are you? 7 A Thirty-five. 8 Q In the last 35 years, do you remember how 9 many times your dad has lived in Oregon to become a 10 resident, if you know? 11 A Driver's license there and residence. But 12 we have never -- I have never lived in Oregon. 13 Q Does he boat there? 14 A No. 15 Q So he has a driver's license there? 16 A I believe so. 17 Q And he has a driver's license in 18 California? 19 A Mmmm... I think so. He has a place in 20 Oregon and he does a lot of traveling up there. We have 21 the trailer. And he has relatives. And I think he 22 double registered it. DMV or Highway Patrol said, you 23 know, one or the other. Spent a lot of time up there and 24 a lot of time down here. So I think he ended up having 25 to dual register. 1324 1 Q On your dad? Or on your dad's vehicles? 2 A I think on both. 3 Q So how many driver's licenses do you have? 4 A I have one. 5 Q California? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q Okay. So back to this Navigator. So do 8 you remember what state the Navigator was purchased? 9 A Oregon or California. 10 Q Mr. Womack, whenever possible, if you 11 could just go ahead and, if you choose -- I will tell you 12 about the repercussions if you don't choose. If you 13 could think about the question and say, I am pretty sure 14 X or I have no idea. 15 What happens is, the Grand Jury at the end 16 can ask any question they want. They may at some times 17 say, Well, was it A or B? If you don't know, you don't 18 know. All can you do is testify truthfully. 19 To the best of your recollection, where 20 was the Navigator purchased? 21 A I can't answer it. 22 Q To the best of your recollection, who 23 purchased the Navigator? 24 A KRL. 25 I have a question here. I thought this 1325 1 was going to be on the gas station. Why are we probing 2 into KRL and personal matters? 3 Q I can't answer your question. 4 A I mean, that's what I was informed that's 5 what the summons, it appeared to me, the property on 505 6 Sutter and the deal with the gas station. I understand 7 why -- 8 Q We will get back to the Navigator in a 9 moment or in a few hours, whenever we get to the 10 Navigator again. 11 Let's start with August 3rd letter from 12 George Ryan marked Grand Jury Exhibit 70. First page is 13 cover letter. You see that? 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q And then the second page. Do you 16 recognize the agreement of purchase and sale? You can go 17 ahead and look through the document, if you could. 18 Describe whether it's one document or two documents to 19 the Members of the Grand Jury, please. 20 A It looks like one document. 21 Q All the way in the back, if you could? 22 A I think it's one document. I have 23 something here, too, but it's not a -- this isn't the 24 recorded document. Recorded document, I think, is it's 25 just Nadine and my name. This was an addendum or 1326 1 something. 2 Originally, George Ryan had set up in KRL, 3 and it was separate purchase from Nadine and I. I have 4 that here. 5 Q On one of the breaks, if you have the 6 documents we asked for several weeks ago -- be happy if 7 what your documents are, are the ones we requested 8 pursuant to our subpoena earlier this week, and it's 9 all-encompassing -- I will be happy to review that. I 10 can't look at it and show it to people without bouncing 11 it off the investigator. 12 A I know, originally, George Ryan does a lot 13 of work for KRL. He thought it was going to be something 14 purchased by KRL. That's how the original document is 15 written up. 16 And Nadine called and told him, No. It 17 was a purchase separately. Just Nadine and I. 18 Q I'm sorry. I don't think you can testify 19 to what Nadine said. If Nadine talked to George, you can 20 say, My wife Nadine spoke to George. 21 I will start this again. 22 When you refer to Nadine, that's your 23 wife, correct? 24 A Right. 25 Q It's Nadine Womack, your wife? 1327 1 A Right. 2 Q So although you can't testify to what she 3 said, you can testify that, I asked her to call or we 4 went by or something like that. And then that will help. 5 Because what we are looking for is the truth. 6 And I think, to help you on your earlier 7 question, we will ask questions related to KRL to make a 8 determination -- I can't do that. 9 Part of the Grand Jury's duties are to 10 determine what or who violated the law. And some of the 11 issues that they seem to have expressed to this point 12 are, was it KRL committing violations of the law? Or was 13 it Robert Womack? And so KRL is intimately entwined in 14 this investigation. 15 A KRL doesn't have -- there's nothing on the 16 documents. It's a separate purchase for Nadine and I, 17 just like my dental office. 18 Q So let's talk about KRL. You say there is 19 nothing on KRL? 20 A On the purchase of 505 Sutter. That's 21 supposed to be Nadine and my name. 22 Q At this time? 23 A The whole time. 24 Q So this document, if you could read the 25 first paragraph into the record, please. 1328 1 A "David S. Mason III, Miriam Mason, his 2 wife, and David S. Mason III, trustee of Mason Family 3 1977 Revokable Trust, agrees to sell partnership or 4 nominee herein called buyer and buyer agrees to purchase 5 from seller the improved real property herein called... 6 Amador County." 7 Q That says agrees to sell to KRL 8 Partnership, correct? 9 A Typo there. 10 Q A typo. 11 Then back here on page 11, it says buyer, 12 KRL Partnership, by whom? 13 A It's my name. 14 Q Your signature? 15 A Right. 16 Q So you signed a document that said buyer 17 KRL? 18 A No, no. I wasn't signing for KRL. 19 Q Just a mistake? 20 A Well, originally, George had written up 21 the contract in KRL's name. And something to do with, I 22 don't know, environmental -- Dave Mason needed a paper 23 drawn up for the City, something to do with the permit. 24 And George Ryan had wrote up that paper. Went out. 25 And but we told him that we were 1329 1 purchasing the property ourselves. It was nothing to do 2 originally with KRL. It was Nadine and mine. I don't 3 know how to explain it. I am not real sure. But it went 4 out as a mistake. George Ryan should know that. 5 Nadine, like I said, called up there and 6 talked to him and told him this was a purchase through 7 Nadine and I. 8 Q That was before or after the tank came out 9 of the ground? 10 A It was all around that time period. It 11 was before. I have the documents here that show the note 12 and show the dates. 13 Q We will look at that in a break. We are 14 willing to provide any information to the Grand Jury that 15 they deem appropriate, including what you have brought, 16 Mr. Womack. 17 However, the document I just showed you 18 that you signed on 4/30/98 said KRL. You saw that, 19 correct? 20 A Right. 21 Q So sometime between 4/30/98 and the tank 22 coming out, you went to Las Vegas, correct? 23 A Mmmm... I am not sure. What day is that? 24 Q It might help you refresh your 25 recollection that you told Investigator Hall that you 1330 1 weren't even in town when the tank came out? 2 A True. 3 Q You were in Vegas? 4 A True. 5 Q So if that was on 5/2 that the tank came 6 out of the ground -- 7 A Right. 8 Q Hypothetically. And on 4/30, you signed 9 this contract. Then when between when you signed this 10 contract on 4/30 and the tank came out of the ground did 11 you contact George Ryan's office to say, Error, error, 12 error? 13 A May have been the next day. It was a 14 short period of time. It was right around when all this 15 was getting recorded. 16 But my dad -- 99 percent of the stuff 17 George Ryan does is for KRL Partnership. He has done a 18 few things for Nadine and I. My dad was handling this as 19 a favor to Nadine and I. And he went to the title 20 company and George -- you know, they just figured it was 21 probably a KRL purchase until we talked to him. 22 Q Okay. Then attached to this letter -- 23 although you called it one document, for the record, it's 24 a cover letter dated August 3rd, '98, correct? From 25 George Ryan? 1331 1 A Yeah. 2 Q Can you hear? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And then an agreement of purchase and sale 5 of improved property, one page, two pages, three pages, 6 four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven. 7 Correct? 8 A Mm-hmm. 9 Q If you could answer yes for the court 10 reporter, if it's yes; no, if it's no? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. And then there is another page 13 attached as Exhibit A, correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Signed 4/30/98 by David Mason or what 16 appears to be David Mason's signature? 17 A Yeah. 18 Q And then there is an addendum to 19 agreement, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q One page, two page, three pages. 22 A Yes. 23 Q And this one is an unsigned copy, correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And who does it say is the purchaser? 1332 1 A "Whereas, the said agreement did provide 2 that KRL Partnership could designate nominee to purchase 3 the property at interest" -- 4 THE REPORTER: I can't hear. 5 MR. IREY: She can't hear you. That absolutely 6 means the guy in the cheap seats can't hear you. 7 THE WITNESS: "The vendor's interest under the 8 agreement of purchase and sale is hereby assigned to 9 Roland and Nadine Womack." 10 What's the date on this one? 11 Q BY MR. IREY: So that three-page document 12 about loan that starts on June 29th, 1998? 13 A Right. 14 Q Okay. So does that help refresh your 15 recollection about when this document was signed? Was it 16 a loan from June 28th, 1998 until May 29th, 1999? Or did 17 you give interest free for two months? 18 A Yeah. There was a time period there that 19 we gave to Dave. It was -- I know it was a month or so 20 before. Because he was -- he was dealing with 21 environmental on the soil, environment on the soil. 22 Q The soil at 505? 23 A Right. 24 Q Not the soil that KRL hauled to Sherrill's 25 property? Not that soil? 1333 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Okay. I will ask this question. Have you 3 spent one minute of your life dealing with the 4 contaminated soil at Sherrill's property? 5 A No, I haven't. 6 Q Have you spent one minute of your life 7 dealing with the contaminated soil at the old mill? 8 A I don't know what contaminated soil you 9 are talking about. 10 Q Okay. 11 A Right now it's all confusing to me. I 12 seen a note the other day, letter from Lodi, saying that 13 there wasn't any contaminants in the tank. There was no 14 hazardous waste in the tank at all. 15 Q Gasoline that was in your gas tank in 16 May -- is it still in your gas tank of your vehicle? 17 A Probably not. 18 Q Okay. 19 A But when is -- from the note I read in 20 Lodi, the tank had water and pea gravel in it. 21 Q How about we do it this way for the next 22 28 minutes. 23 Mr. Womack, you have the right and 24 responsibility to provide truth to the Grand Jury. 25 That's your understanding, correct? 1334 1 A Correct. 2 Q And there are some what's called 3 exculpatory evidence that you wanted to present to the 4 Grand Jury, correct? 5 A Well, right now, I am just -- I'm a little 6 confused on, you know, the real reason I am here. I 7 thought we were to discuss the tank removal, gas station, 8 site of the gas station. 9 Things to do with KRL, I do not have 10 documents here. I don't know why KRL is involved. 11 Q So far we have talked about one document, 12 Grand Jury Exhibit 70, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q KRL is on how many of the pages in this 15 one document? 16 A It's... 17 Q We won't even look at this document. 18 Let's look at Grand Jury Exhibit 67. Is 19 KRL's name on that document? 20 A Right. 21 Q Grand Jury Exhibit 66. Is KRL's name on 22 that document? 23 A Right. 24 Q Okay. So again, I am offering, if at this 25 time -- 1335 1 A That doesn't mean that KRL is purchasing 2 the property. 3 Q Okay. How many -- 4 A Excuse me. 5 Q I am asking about the purchase of the 6 property at this time. 7 A Okay. 8 Q I am asking about if you have evidence you 9 would like to present to the Grand Jury that would show 10 no crime was committed. And if you have any of that, I 11 would be happy to let you present that to the Grand Jury 12 at this time. 13 If it is in documentary form, I want to 14 review it. And I would be happy to look at it while you 15 are testifying as to what is exculpatory. 16 If, for instance, you have County permits 17 or soil results or anything along those lines, I will 18 present it to the Grand Jury. If you had nothing do with 19 it because you were in Las Vegas, you can present that. 20 Because there are several people being investigated, as 21 you have read in the paper, and helped -- we are just 22 looking for the truth. 23 So at this point -- and I will give you 24 the same invitation later in your testimony. You might 25 be here for a day, two days, three days. I have no 1336 1 idea. We are only on three pages of a ten-page document. 2 And so far, you have told us -- all of that stuff is 3 long. I am going to have to go through, kind of like 4 pulling teeth, and ask you, KRL/Bob Womack/June 5 Womack/Dave Mason questions. That's what we are here to 6 ask. 7 So at this time, do you have any statement 8 that you want to make to the Grand Jurors about who did 9 what on what day? 10 A Well, just stuff that I have seen and 11 read. There are a few documents out there. I just saw 12 one the other day. I just told you. The tank. I mean, 13 it was tested. You know, I was concerned when it 14 originally came to us and told us the tank was hazardous 15 and been removed. Then I see a document the other day 16 that it wasn't hazardous and -- 17 Q What day was that date? 18 A I just saw it a couple days ago. 19 Q We might have a copy of that. 20 Was it dated November 12th, seven months 21 after the tank came out of the ground? 22 A Possibly. 23 Q Possibly? Or do you remember? 24 A I don't remember for sure the exact date 25 on there. 1337 1 Q So that's one document that you wanted the 2 Grand Jurors to see, correct? 3 A I think so. I think it's pertinent. 4 Q Okay. This has been marked Grand Jury 5 Exhibit 14, three pages. I don't know if it's called a 6 three-page document. 7 A This is what I saw. 8 Q Okay. 9 A It's dated November 12th. 10 But we don't have -- you know, the tank, 11 from what I heard, you said it was hazardous and it had 12 to be destroyed. 13 Q Who told you that? 14 A My dad did. 15 Q Did your dad tell you from May 1st until 16 this morning that he is the one that hauled the tank 17 away? 18 A No. 19 Q He has never told you that? 20 A No. 21 Q You are sure? 22 A Positive. 23 Q Okay. Would it surprise you if your dad 24 hauled the tank away? 25 A No. 1338 1 Q Why wouldn't it surprise you that your dad 2 hauled the tank away? 3 A Didn't think it was hazardous. I don't 4 know. 5 Q How many meetings have you been present at 6 when he told people that he had no idea what happened to 7 the tank that day? 8 A The one we met, where we all met. 9 Q That was the only time? 10 A The only meeting I have been to. 11 Q How many times have you heard him tell 12 others just out in passing that he didn't know where the 13 tank went? 14 A I don't know. Several maybe. 15 Q But it wouldn't surprise you that really 16 he hauled the tank? 17 A Sherrill, Wolin. There was quite a few 18 there. Somebody had to haul it. 19 Q You weren't there? 20 A What I am getting at, if it wasn't 21 hazardous -- even though this is dated November 12th, 22 there has got to be a way to test the tank to see what 23 was in there originally, if it was changed, fumes, 24 something. I mean -- 25 Q Well, let's ask you this question, as 1339 1 the -- what are you for KRL? 2 A Partner. 3 Q So we are going to bounce back and forth 4 from KRL. 5 Who are the partners in KRL today, if you 6 know? 7 A I think Larry, my brother and I. 8 Q Okay. And that -- how much of the 9 partnership do you own? 10 A Could be a quarter. 11 Q You own a quarter? 12 A (Witness nods head.) Yeah. Be a quarter 13 anyway. 14 Q And Larry owns three quarters? 15 A No. I think he would own a quarter. 16 Q And who owns the other half? 17 A Well, legally, on paper, it's probably 18 Larry and I each own 50 percent. But we got a verbal 19 agreement between Luke and my sister, too. We are all 20 equal partners. 21 Q I'm sorry. That's yours. 22 Okay. So there is a verbal agreement that 23 all four kids each own a quarter? 24 A Right. 25 Q That's your understanding. And when was 1340 1 that verbal agreement made? 2 A Years ago, I guess. 3 Q Okay. And about how many years ago? 4 A I can't say for sure. 5 Q Let's use the day your dental office 6 opened on Sutter Street as a historic date. Around early 7 '95, correct? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q Okay. So did you guys have this handshake 10 deal before that or after that? 11 A It has just always been agreed upon that 12 it was equal partners. Brothers and sisters. You know, 13 just equal partners. Nobody had a majority share or... 14 Q Okay. So as equal partners, how many 15 times have you personally observed Kimberly make a 16 decision regarding sales of property in the last five 17 years? 18 A Not often. She doesn't live around here 19 any more. 20 Q Dixon? Hour and 35 minutes? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And last week you sold property worth -- 23 or in the last seven weeks, how much property has KRL 24 disposed of? 25 A I am not sure. 1341 1 Q Over a million? 2 A Million? 3 Q Dollars? 4 A I don't believe so. 5 Q How much was the ranch you guys sold to 6 the casino? 7 A It was seven something. 8 Q Okay. Did Kimberly have a vote in that? 9 A I don't know what you mean by vote. It 10 was agreed upon. 11 Q What if it were 2 million? Did she say, 12 don't sell it for 700,000; it's worth 2 million. How 13 does that work? 14 A We take my dad's advice. And if it sounds 15 like a good deal, we go with it. That's why he is 16 working for KRL and manages it. He is more knowledgeable 17 when it comes to contracts. 18 It was set up originally as an inheritance 19 for us kids. Accountant suggested it at the time for tax 20 purposes, inheritance. And that's why the partnership is 21 in existence. My dad finds a lot of the deals and let's 22 us know about it. And maybe we don't sit down and, you 23 know, take votes. It's my dad. We trust what he does. 24 Q This is Grand Jury Exhibit 66. Do you 25 recognize the handwriting on that check? 1342 1 A Yeah, it looks like my dad's. 2 Q And the signature? 3 A Yeah. It looks like my dad's. 4 Q Same on Grand Jury Exhibit 67? 5 A Yeah. It's the same. 6 Q This should be an easy one. 7 If Nadine and Roland bought 505, how come 8 KRL paid for the demolition? 9 A We haven't bought it yet, but because that 10 all comes out -- my dad keeps track. End of the year, he 11 goes to an accountant and he draws -- or anything out of 12 KRL, where it goes, it goes to 505, shows Roland and 13 Nadine. That would be part of our expenses and incomes. 14 Other things get drawn out and he keeps records of where 15 all the expenses go. And it's figured up at the end of 16 the year. 17 Q Okay. Other than the checks from KRL, did 18 you write any checks on the purchase or the loan at 505 19 Sutter Street? 20 A Well, on the loan to Dave Mason. 21 Q Okay. How much money did you loan Dave 22 Mason? 23 A 60,000. 24 Q Okay. Basically, $5,000 late, late April 25 or early, early May, correct? 1343 1 A I think so. 2 Q Okay. And then 55,000 around the end of 3 May? 4 A Yes. 5 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 6 18. It's the escrow file. I think it's what's called an 7 escrow file. From Mr. Ryan's office. 8 Top of the first page when you open the 9 cover, it lists Receipts. Do you see that? 10 A Right. 11 Q And then it has whose name? 12 A Roland E. Womack and Nadine Womack. 13 Q And then there is an amount? 14 A Yes. 5,000. 15 Q Okay. And does that help refresh your 16 recollection on whether or not you and Nadine paid the 17 5,000? 18 A No. I knew we paid it. I wasn't sure on 19 the date. 20 Q Okay. This is the escrow file. I grabbed 21 this office note on the front page. You see that? 22 A Right. 23 Q And then right here, somewhere in there, 24 is there an order number? Do you see who is the 25 purchaser? 1344 1 A I see order number. 2 Q What about the next line that says 3 purchaser? 4 A Yeah, it's KRL Partnership. 5 Q Okay. And -- okay. So $5,000. Which 6 account of yours did that money come out of, if you 7 remember? 8 A Mmmm... I think we got a loan, withdrawal 9 from a Wells Fargo. 10 Q That was for the big check, correct? 11 A The 5,000 and the -- the 55,000, my wife 12 made the checks out. I am not sure. I know we had to get 13 a line of credit. 14 Q Okay. So your wife made the checks out? 15 A Right. It was either out of -- the big 16 one, I am sure, is when we had to get a line of credit 17 from Wells Fargo. 18 Q Okay. Who purchased the dental building? 19 KRL or you and Nadine? 20 A Nadine and I. 21 Q Who purchased the property where you 22 currently live? 23 A That was KRL. 24 Q Who owns the property where you currently 25 live? 1345 1 A Nadine and I. 2 Q You bought it from KRL? 3 A It's in our name. 4 Q Was it a gift from KRL? 5 A I -- I guess so. I don't remember. 6 Q Here we go. Check 3958. Is that your 7 business account? 8 A Yes. 9 Q So your business account paid $5,000 on 10 5/1/98? 11 A Looks like it. 12 Q Okay. And so Nadine and Roland Womack 13 were buying 505 Sutter as of 5/1/98. Is that your 14 understanding? 15 A Ever since we even talked about it, it was 16 always agreed upon that we were purchasing the property. 17 Q So then you owned the tank? 18 A Supposedly. It was never even discussed 19 that KRL was going to buy this property. It was always 20 Nadine and I were the ones that were interested in it and 21 wanting to do the improvements to it. 22 Q But yet you signed how many documents that 23 said KRL? 24 A Yeah, the ones you showed there. I know 25 the final one is in our name. 1346 1 Q Okay. So you have this handshake 2 agreement with your brother and sister. You think you 3 own a half and you think Larry owns half. 4 And do you know that Larry is getting 5 evicted out of Marysville as we speak? 6 A That's news to me. 7 Q Okay. Was your dad really mad at him when 8 he sold the house from under him? Or just a little mad? 9 A Sold Larry's house? 10 Q Yeah. 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Was it vindictive? 13 A No. 14 Q Did he talk to you about it before he did 15 it? 16 A He mentioned it, the house was for sale. 17 Q We heard a story somewhere hypothetically 18 that Larry used your dad's house for the weekend. Your 19 dad got PO'ed. Your dad came back and sold Larry's 20 house. 21 Does that sound familiar? 22 A Well, my brother has done a few things. 23 Q Strike that as non-responsive. 24 Does that story sound familiar? 25 A Yes. 1347 1 Q Okay. Is that what happened? 2 A I don't know. Dad gets mad one day and 3 then, next day, he cools down. And Larry is fine. I 4 thought it was because Larry had a job in Marysville and 5 he was moving to Marysville. No, the reason he was 6 selling the house -- 7 Q So you don't know one way or the other if 8 that's why the house was sold? 9 A Well, my dad's house -- 10 Q I guess my next question would be, if 11 Larry owned half the partnership and you owned half the 12 partnership, doesn't Larry get a vote whether his house 13 gets sold? 14 A That's what I was trying to say. I don't 15 think my dad has -- legally sell the house. It's in 16 KRL's name. 17 Q Oh, okay. So walk us through KRL in the 18 '90s, how it's operated. 19 Let's say, how many hours a week does 20 Larry work for KRL? 21 A Doesn't work for KRL. 22 Q How many hours a week does Kimberly work 23 for KRL? 24 A There is no set hours. 25 Q How many hours per year do you think 1348 1 Kimberly works for KRL? 2 A Don't keep timecards. 3 Q Okay. Let's say hypothetically Luke 4 testified about these same issues. Okay? Can I ask you 5 some questions and maybe bounce some potential Luke 6 answers off you? Maybe that would help refresh your 7 recollection. 8 A Okay. 9 Q Luke hypothetically told us that: The 10 family was mad at me because I got my girlfriend pregnant 11 and we had a fight. So I gave up my share in KRL. 12 Does that sound familiar? 13 A I have heard that. 14 Q Was your dad mad at him when he got his 15 girlfriend pregnant? 16 A He was upset. 17 Q Did your dad force him to give up his 18 almost 1.2 or 3 million dollars in KRL at that point? 19 A No. 20 Q Because he still owns it, according to 21 you? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q So if you have $1.2 million, your 24 understanding of law or accounting, and you give me $1.2 25 million of KRL, is that a gift? 1349 1 A Sounds like it. 2 Q Did you pay gift tax on your $1.2 million 3 gift from Luke to you? 4 A Have to talk to the accountant. I am not 5 sure. 6 Q Okay. Do you remember whether or not 7 Kimberly gave her shares to you? 8 A No. The main reason that Larry and I were 9 on there instead of all four of us was basically for 10 signing documents. It was such a hassle to have all four 11 of us sign. And my understanding, it's two signatures. 12 And it was more of a convenience. 13 Q Last year, for a while, June Womack and 14 Robert Womack were on these partnership agreements, 15 correct? 16 A I think at one time, they were. They were 17 on there. 18 Q If you recall, last year, 1997, were June 19 Womack and Robert Womack on the agreement? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q What type of KRL paperwork do you keep at 22 your home or your place of business? 23 A Mmmm... Very little. It's at an office 24 on Ridge Road. That's where the office is we keep 25 everything. 1350 1 Q That's the office that was searched, 2 correct? 3 A Right. 4 Q Did you tell your dad his house was 5 trashed? 6 A No. 7 Q So if your dad -- was your dad's house 8 trashed? 9 A It was gone over pretty well. 10 Q What's "trashed" mean to you? Anything 11 broken? 12 A Mmmm... No. 13 Q How many people were there? 14 A When I got there, there was six, seven, 15 something like that. 16 Q Is that the max you saw there at any one 17 time? One marked unit? 18 A I think there was one marked unit and 19 three -- two or three cars there, one marked. 20 Q Three Highway Patrol people, three D.A. 21 investigators? 22 A Possibly. 23 Q Any more? 24 A Mmmm... No, right around six or eight. 25 Q So your dad's house was gone over pretty 1351 1 thoroughly. That's your understanding? 2 A Right. 3 Q But you were only there for part of the 4 search that was related to finding the videotape and a 5 couple other issues, correct? You weren't there opening 6 the safe? 7 A Yeah. I -- supposedly, they got there 8 8:30 or 9:00 or so. I didn't get called until about 9 noon. 10 Q Really. Who told you that? 11 A My wife. I was finishing a patient. She 12 said they just called and wanted me to come over and open 13 the safe. 14 Q That was 8:30 or 9:00 a.m.? 15 A No. That was around noon. 16 Q So they called your wife at 8:30, it's 17 your understanding? 18 A No. This -- they called her right before 19 noon and told her they were over there and needed to get 20 into the safe. 21 Q And how do you know they were there at 22 8:30? 23 A Guy that was there cleaning said they 24 arrived shortly after he did. I think he got there at 25 8:00. 1352 1 Q So that's where the newspaper story comes 2 from that they were there for eight hours, correct? You 3 told somebody? 4 A I guess. They were there until 5:00 or 5 so, too. 6 Q So the Grand Jury has seen a videotape 7 that had a time on it that shows the entry at 12:30 in 8 the afternoon. Do you think the entry was at 12:30? Or 9 do you think it was at 8:30 and the investigators just 10 put 12:30 on their video? 11 A Well, when I got there, it was a little 12 after 12:00, may have been 12:30. They wanted into the 13 safe. And then they wanted into -- it was a tool room. 14 My dad keeps his tools, a bunch of tools in the garage. 15 I asked them if they wanted over on the 16 other side of the garage. They said they had been 17 through that. I asked them the other side of the house. 18 They said, We have already gone through that. So I 19 figured it sounded reasonable that they had been there 20 for a while. 21 Q Okay. So with what you currently 22 understand, at this point -- although I will have several 23 more questions -- you think they got there at 8:30 or at 24 12:30? 25 A I wasn't there. Like I said, I got the 1353 1 call. And a friend of mine was cleaning the carpets. He 2 is the one that said they started arriving, he thought, 3 around 8:30. 4 Q Your friend's name? 5 A Dan Steel. 6 Q Okay. Somewhere down the road, we are 7 going to find out what time the warrant was actually 8 signed. 9 Would it surprise you that the warrant 10 wasn't signed until well after that time? 11 A Wouldn't surprise me. 12 Q Okay. So besides telling people that they 13 were there for eight hours, have you made any other 14 inaccurate statements outside of the courtroom regarding 15 this issue around the search warrant? 16 A I don't believe so. 17 Q Okay. How was the house trashed? 18 A I don't know what you mean by "trashed." 19 The door was off to the office. I don't know where 20 "trashed" came from. 21 Q Okay. Do you know anything about officer 22 safety? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you -- hypothetically, if you went into 25 a big house and only one room was locked and you didn't 1354 1 know if anybody was home, wouldn't you think there would 2 be issues regarding officer safety that would require a 3 complete checking of all rooms in the house? Make sense? 4 A Makes sense. 5 Q That room, in fact, had all the guns. Is 6 that your understanding, most of the guns? 7 A What room? 8 Q The room that the hinges were taken off. 9 A Mmmm... There are some guns in there. 10 Q Okay. So it was never your term of art 11 that the house was trashed? Or was it? 12 A No. 13 Q But you have heard the house was trashed, 14 correct? 15 A I have heard it was gone over. 16 Q Have you heard it was trashed? 17 A No. 18 Q You haven't heard your dad tell everybody 19 it was trashed? 20 A No. 21 Q Earlier, hypothetically, we had a witness 22 testify that the house was trashed. And I was wondering 23 if you have ever heard your dad say his house was trashed? 24 A No. Because I talked to my dad on the car 25 phone that day. My mom was concerned that her crafts and 1355 1 everything were gone through. I told them no. They are, 2 you know, videotaping everything. But nothing was 3 overturned or.... I don't know where trashed -- went 4 through drawers looking for everything; but, to my 5 knowledge, nothing was destroyed. 6 A lot of stuff was taken, you know, 7 unopened mail and titles and stuff. But, uh... 8 Q So a lot of the stuff was taken, titles 9 and mail? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q Most of it out of the KRL office, correct? 12 A Right. 13 Q Some other things were taken, correct? 14 A There was quite a few things, yeah. 15 Q A videotape that you showed Officer Hall 16 where it was located, correct? 17 A Correct. 18 Q A videotape in your father's bedroom 19 drawer? Not videotape. I apologize. Audio tape, little 20 cassette tape? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Okay. What did your dad say when he found 23 out the tape was taken? 24 A The videotape? 25 Q The audio tape. 1356 1 A Didn't know why they would take that. 2 Q Why? 3 A Nothing, like, I don't know. 4 Q You just said videotape. I mean audio 5 tape. I don't know why they would take that? 6 A Yeah. It was in the bedroom. All the gas 7 station files, KRL, everything is in the office. 8 Q Did he tell what you was on that tape? 9 A No. 10 Q Did he laugh about it? 11 A I don't think he knows what's on the 12 tape. I don't think he remembers. 13 Q Okay. I will ask a couple more questions, 14 then I think we will take a break. 15 Hypothetically, earlier this week someone 16 told a story that said your dad laughed when he found out 17 the tape was taken. Does that help refresh your 18 recollection whether or not your dad laughed when he 19 found out the tape was taken? 20 A I didn't hear him laugh. It could be he 21 thought it was -- he has his phone recorder, if that's 22 what the tape was. I am not sure that's what the tape 23 was. 24 Q Did you have a little huddle after your 25 dad came back from halfway to Vegas, family huddle? 1357 1 A No. 2 Q Talk about what was seized? 3 A I showed him the documents I had to sign. 4 Q In front of whom? 5 A I think it was just him, gave him the 6 documents when he showed up. 7 Q Not June? 8 A She -- I am sure she seen 'em. She could 9 have been there. 10 Q Not Luke? 11 A He was there at the house. 12 Q I don't have a transcript in front of me, 13 and I am not supposed to tell you specific answers. But 14 hypothetically, would it make sense that Luke told this 15 Grand Jury you talked about this an hour, plus or minus 16 maybe an hour and a half, about the search warrant and 17 all the issues? 18 A Sounds reasonable. 19 Q Okay. So which is the truth? That it was 20 you and your dad? Or you and your dad and Luke and June 21 talking for an hour or an hour and a half? 22 A Luke was there and his kid, his little 23 girl, and my mom and my dad and I. The documents I 24 showed my dad. I don't know -- I know Luke saw 'em and 25 my mom saw 'em. I don't know if that was -- we talked 1358 1 about it was a traumatic deal coming into the house. We 2 talked about what they went through. And showed him the 3 documents. 4 Q On the tape, did he actually say, I don't 5 know what is on the tape? Did he say, Ha, ha, ha? Did 6 he say, That must be my phone messages? 7 A That's what I am assuming, that it was his 8 phone messages. 9 Q What did he say? 10 A I don't remember. I know, you know, he 11 was maybe surprised that, you know, they went in their 12 room. He was surprised, you know, everything was 13 checked. I don't think he was concerned about the tape. 14 Q So I don't think you could testify to what 15 you think your dad was thinking. You can testify to what 16 your dad specifically told you and/or what you were 17 thinking. 18 So to ask that question one more time: 19 What did your dad say, if you recall, about the tape? 20 A I don't -- I can't recall exact words that 21 were said. 22 Q Did he say anything audibly? Did he speak 23 about the tape at all? 24 A Just that it was taken, along with a lot 25 of other things. 1359 1 Q You read something, tape was taken, and 2 your dad, Robert, back, Tape was taken, and doesn't laugh 3 and doesn't tell you what is on the tape? 4 A I may have asked him what was on the 5 tape. I don't recall him knowing what was on there. 6 Q Okay. Did your dad at any time in your 7 life, including the day of the search warrant, tell you 8 that that was when he surreptitiously went to the City 9 counter and tried to tape City employees? 10 You can take the Fifth at any time. 11 A I don't know. He said he had a 12 recorded -- that was later. And I don't know at this 13 time. I will take the Fifth. 14 Q Your rights for self-incrimination; not 15 your father's rights, correct? 16 Is there something about this testimony, 17 if you know -- and you have to feel comfortable about 18 it -- that could tend to lead toward you incriminating 19 yourself in a crime? 20 A I don't believe so. 21 Q I am going to have to ask you to answer 22 the question. 23 A No. 24 Q No, you are not going to answer it? 25 A No, I don't think there is anything. 1360 1 Q Okay. So therefore, you need to answer 2 the question. I have to play judge at this point. And 3 if you don't think that there is anything that would tend 4 to incriminate you -- how about if I don't ask that, and 5 you can bounce it off an attorney and we will ask it down 6 the road. 7 So without talking about the specific 8 conversation, would it surprise -- would it surprise you 9 that your dad surreptitiously taped a conversation he had 10 at the City counter? 11 A Yes. 12 MR. IREY: Is it time for a break? 13 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 14 Yeah, we will take a ten-minute break. 15 You probably need to review those documents. 16 MR. IREY: I will try. 17 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. What I will do at this 18 time, Mr. Womack, I am going to read you an admonition 19 before we take our ten-minute recess. 20 You are admonished not to reveal to any 21 person, except as directed by the Court, what questions 22 were asked or what responses were given or any other 23 matters concerning the nature or subject of the Grand 24 Jury's investigation that you learned during your 25 appearance before the Grand Jury. 1361 1 This admonition continues unless and until 2 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 3 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 4 punishable as contempt of court. 5 This does not prevent you from discussing 6 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 7 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 8 Grand Jury. 9 And if I could get you to date and sign 10 this admonition. That's word for word what I just read 11 to you. 12 MR. IREY: Just a reminder, Mr. Womack. The 13 admonition, your brother hypothetically had concerns on 14 whether or not he could chat with his wife about that. 15 If you would like, we can make a copy of that for you 16 now, just so that it doesn't precipitate any issues 17 further down the line for you. 18 Additionally, I won't leave the room -- 19 the Grand Jurors will take their break now. I would like 20 to look at those documents while we are on break. I will 21 leave them over on that desk and I will skim through 22 them, if that's okay with you? 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 MR. IREY: Then I need to know from you, do you 25 have a full and complete copy of all of those records? 1362 1 Or not yet? 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think these are copies. 3 MR. IREY: Okay. So then take a break. 4 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. I will read the admonition. 5 MR. IREY: Until what time for Mr. Womack? 6 THE FOREPERSON: Ten minutes. 7 MR. IREY: Twenty after because, by the time you 8 read your admonition. 9 THE FOREPERSON: Twenty after. 10 MR. IREY: Mr. Womack, I need to open the door, 11 have you step outside for just a moment, please. Until 12 twenty after, come on back, please. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Then I will -- when I read this 14 again further today, I will just remind you of this 15 admonishment, instead of just going through it. 16 MR. IREY: One minute, Mr. Foreman. Maybe I will 17 push the break back. We have nine witnesses scheduled 18 this afternoon. Many of them have driven substantial 19 distances. I realize that, earlier this week, we wanted 20 to plow through Luke Womack, which was a great idea. And 21 keeping the witness going is a great idea. 22 I just -- it's up to you. We have 23 witnesses coming from Colfax and Kimberly Moore coming 24 from Dixon. And they are packed in pretty tight. Many 25 of them were difficult to serve with their subpoenas. 1363 1 My suggestion would be to bring him back 2 tomorrow afternoon if we don't finish by 12:30. And I 3 don't think that we are going to be finished by 12:30. 4 So anyway. 5 THE FOREPERSON: Is that fine? 6 GRAND JUROR: That's fine. 7 MR. IREY: I will step out. Go ahead and 8 decide. Then read the admonition. 9 THE FOREPERSON: You want to make it 11:25? 10 MR. IREY: Okay. 11 12 (Whereupon, pages 1364-1365 were reported and transcribed, but are under separate 13 confidential cover.) 14 ---oOo--- 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1366 1 (Recess taken from 11:11 to 11:25 a.m.) 2 THE FOREPERSON: Could we come to order, 3 please. 4 Mr. Womack, I will advise you, you are 5 still under oath. Okay? You may be seated. 6 And we have been able to adjust the 7 microphone. If you were to sit up, I think we might be 8 able to get some audible there. 9 THE WITNESS: One, two, three. 10 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. Much better. 11 Q BY MR. IREY: So I think my last 12 question -- and if you could answer it again, would be, 13 I asked if it would surprise you if your dad was 14 surreptitiously monitoring City employees. 15 And your answer was? 16 A I don't believe so, no. 17 Q It wouldn't surprise you? Or it would 18 surprise you? 19 A Oh, it would surprise me. 20 Q So other than if he did it in September of 21 1998, any other time in your life you remember your dad 22 telling you, I got some great stuff on this tape recorder 23 that I carry around in my pocket? 24 A No. 25 Q If someone came to your dental office and 1367 1 started tape recording your conversation with them 2 without telling you, do you think that would be a problem 3 with you? 4 A No. 5 Q No? 6 Do you know whether it's legal or illegal 7 to surreptitiously tape people? 8 A I am not sure. 9 Q Okay. I have marked your file that you 10 brought in, 505 Sutter. 11 Could you read what Grand Jury Exhibit it 12 is, Mr. Womack, into the record, please. 13 A 71. 14 Q Could you skim through it and see -- why 15 don't you go ahead and count the total number of pages 16 real quick, so that some day, if asked, we have 17 everything you brought to court today. 18 A There is 20. 19 Q Twenty pages. 20 Than we will quickly review your 21 documents. Are there any other documents -- and again, 22 let's see. Are there any other documents you could 23 provide to us today, that you want to provide to us? 24 A I don't believe so. 25 Q Any other photographs? 1368 1 A Photographs? 2 Q Any photographs that you wanted to show 3 us? 4 A No. 5 Q Videotape? 6 A No. 7 Q Audio tape? 8 A No. 9 Q You are not tape recording these questions 10 today, are you? 11 A No. 12 Q And you haven't talked to Luke about his 13 testimony on Monday yet? 14 A No. I haven't seen him. 15 Q Haven't called him on the phone? 16 A No. 17 Q Has your dad said he has spoken to Luke 18 this week? 19 A I think he did. 20 Q You think your dad said he spoke to him? 21 A I'm sorry. Yeah, he saw Luke. 22 Q Okay. But you didn't see your dad this 23 morning? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q Okay. Did you see your dad this morning? 1369 1 A Yes. 2 Q Where? 3 A At my house. 4 Q He came by? 5 A Yes. 6 Q What did you discuss? 7 A That we were coming here. And he wanted 8 to know what time. Just brought the paper by, showed me 9 today's paper. That was about it. 10 Q Okay. Two things. Came by, wanted to see 11 what time. 12 So before today, did your dad know what 13 time you were supposed to testify today? 14 A He thought it was around 8:00, 8:30. 15 Q He just wanted to double-check. He wanted 16 to double-check what time you were coming to the Grand 17 Jury, correct? 18 A Yeah. 19 Q And he wanted to show you today's front 20 page article, correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And that was about it. What other things 23 fit into that -- what about the subset of that's about 24 it? 25 A Just general asked how he was feeling. 1370 1 Been having some headaches. And nothing pertinent. 2 Q Is this process wearing on him, in your 3 opinion? 4 A Mmmm... He has always had headaches. But 5 my mom said that he has been getting more lately. 6 Q Is this process wearing on you? 7 A Mmmm... Done better. 8 Q Okay. So it was you and Nadine. Did your 9 dad and June come by? Or just your dad? 10 A Just my dad. 11 Q And he came by in what car? 12 A I didn't see the car. 13 Q Okay. About what time did he come by? 14 A It was 7:00, 7:15. 15 Q Has your dad at any time in your life told 16 you to tell the District Attorney's Office anything 17 false? 18 A No. 19 Q Has your dad at any time in your life told 20 you to tell the Grand Jurors anything other than the 21 truth? 22 A No. 23 Q Have you heard your dad tell you any time 24 in your life that he has told others not to tell the 25 Grand Jury the whole truth? 1371 1 A No. 2 Q Have you at any time in your life heard 3 your dad tell you or in your presence tell someone else 4 the that he has told people not to tell the District 5 Attorney's Office the truth? 6 A No. 7 Q Okay. So why doesn't it surprise you, if 8 your dad is such a trustful, trustworthy guy, that he 9 hauled the tank away from the gas station? 10 A I don't know if he did. 11 Q Okay. Hypothetically, if your dad hauled 12 the gas tank away from the gas station, why did you 13 testify earlier that that would not surprise you? 14 A Somebody had to do it. 15 Q Who do you think could have done it? 16 A I'm not sure. Whoever has a truck. 17 Q So anybody in Amador County or State of 18 California that has a truck could have hauled the tank 19 away. 20 And then, if you were going to -- we will 21 do the subset thing again. I forget how it goes. Then 22 you get it down to people who were on site. Would they 23 be more likely to have hauled the tank off? 24 A Possibly. 25 Q Let's say you and Nadine bought the tank. 1372 1 How many times have you asked your dad where the tank 2 that you bought went that night? 3 A Couple times maybe. 4 Q And how many different answers has your 5 father given you? 6 A None. He said he didn't know where it 7 went. 8 Q So you have asked your father twice or a 9 couple of times; and each time, he told you he didn't 10 know where it went? 11 A Right. We had that meeting. Same thing 12 he has told me then. 13 Q So you bought the tank on April 30th, 14 1998, although it says KRL. Correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And then on May 2nd, the tank came out the 17 of the ground. Is that your understanding? 18 A Correct. 19 Q You weren't in town, correct? 20 A No. 21 Q You are a very good motorcross rider. Is 22 that what I hear? 23 A No. I ride motorcross. 24 Q That's one of your favorite hobbies? 25 A Right. 1373 1 Q And that of your children? 2 A Right. 3 Q And so do you think that's where you were 4 when the tank came out of the ground? 5 A I was at a motorcross event. 6 Q I will be bouncing around a little bit. 7 It will be a little confusing, but that way -- that's 8 kind of my technique. And if it's confusing, just ask me 9 to re-ask the question and I will try to set up the 10 foundation there. 11 But along those lines, ever since the 12 start of buying the gas station, you and Nadine were 13 going to buy the gas station, correct? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And prior to that, do you remember having 16 conversations with your father that he was going to buy 17 the gas station and operate it as a gas station? 18 A Hmmm... No, not really. 19 I think Dave Mason was trying to sell it 20 as a -- and keep it going as a gas station. But we 21 talked about it and said it wasn't feasible to use it as 22 a gas station. 23 Q And when you say we talked about it, 24 would that be the KRL partners? Or you and Nadine? Or 25 you and your father? How does that work? 1374 1 A It was Nadine and I and my dad. 2 Q Okay. And you sat around. You just 3 chatted one day and said, That would make a better 4 parking lot than a gas station? 5 A Correct. Dave come to us wanting to sell 6 the property. That's how it come up. 7 Q Do you remember your dad saying he was 8 cutting deals with the younger David Mason regarding how 9 cheap he could buy gas? 10 A Not to my knowledge. 11 Q So you and Nadine weren't part of that 12 negotiation for the property you and Nadine were going to 13 buy? 14 A Correct. 15 Q So if that negotiation was occurring, it 16 wasn't for Nadine and Roland, to the best of your 17 knowledge? 18 A Right. 19 Q You didn't say, Dad, run out there and see 20 if you can get me some cheap gas because I don't have 21 enough work here at the dental office. I want to sell 22 gas. 23 A Right. We weren't interested in using it 24 as a gas station. We were mainly concerned for parking. 25 Q Okay. About that gas station, it sat 1375 1 right there outside your windows for the whole time you 2 have operated there, correct? 3 A Right. 4 Q And you have to drive around it to park at 5 your business, correct? 6 A Right. 7 Q When was the last time you saw anybody 8 buying gas there? 9 A Three or four years ago maybe. 10 Q So four years ago was right when the 11 business opened, correct? Your business? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Were they selling gas then? 14 A I believe so. 15 Q Toms Sierra was there? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. For a while after that, they were 18 selling gas, correct? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q And then at some time they stopped selling 21 gas and it kind of closed down and it got real pathetic 22 looking? 23 A Right. 24 Q Then after that, they rented it to a guy 25 named Brito. 1376 1 Do you know Mr. Brito? 2 A No. 3 Q Army Navy surplus kind of guy? 4 A Oh, I remember there was somebody in 5 there. 6 Q So it was a regular gas station, dump, 7 kind of regular gas station, correct? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q That would have been summer of '97 or fall 10 of '97? 11 A That he was in there selling? 12 Q Yeah. 13 A I -- I couldn't tell you. 14 Q What's your best guess? 15 A Yeah. 16 Q Your best guess is summer of '97, fall of 17 '97? 18 A I didn't think it was that recent, but it 19 could have been. 20 Q Okay. So it was either three or four 21 years ago or one year ago, correct? 22 A That they were selling gas? 23 Q Yeah. 24 A I thought it was three years ago or so 25 that they were selling gas. 1377 1 Q Because you read it in the newspaper? 2 A No. Just from seeing cars going in there 3 buying gas. 4 Q Do you remember when Brito was there? 5 Okay. 6 When was the last time you saw anybody 7 selling surplus there? 8 A A couple years ago. 9 Q Did I just take all the papers out of your 10 file? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q Sorry. 13 A Keep 'em. 14 Q So this is the first page you had in the 15 file. And we will just go through them rather quickly. 16 Could you tell us what check number it is. 17 A 3958. 18 Q What account? 19 A Business account. 20 Q And that business account is a Jackson 21 branch? 22 A Yeah, it's Wells Fargo. 23 Q Okay. And the date of the check? 24 A 5/1/98. 25 Q And the next check? Check number? 1378 1 A 4022. Same account. Wells Fargo. 2 Q Made out to whom? 3 A Sherrill Construction. 4 Q For how much? 5 A 2736.30. 6 Q Do you know why you paid this check? 7 A It was on hauling gravel and the work 8 done, demolition of gas station. 9 Q Okay. Do you know why you paid this check 10 out of your business account instead of KRL out of 11 theirs? 12 A I think it was -- let me look back there. 13 Q Sure. 14 A Because it was a later date. We were back 15 by then and he sent us the bill. 16 Q He sent you the bill. What's your name? 17 A Well, it's care of Bob Womack, this says. 18 It was sent to us. 19 Q By whom? Your dad? 20 A Mark may have dropped it off to my dad and 21 my dad gave it to us. I don't remember if it was sent to 22 us. 23 The reason the other ones were paid out of 24 KRL is because we weren't there. And those were, I 25 think, when the construction was going on or the 1379 1 demolition, whatever you want to call it. 2 Q How long were you in Vegas? 3 A Mmmm... Friday through Sunday. 4 Q So Sunday would be the 3rd of May? 5 A Hmmm... 6 Q Correct? 7 A I believe so. 8 Q So the checks on 5/1 and 5/2 and 5/3, they 9 were made out because you were out of town? Is that your 10 testimony? 11 A Usually, that's what -- if I am not 12 around, then they are made out of that. 13 Q Then all the checks on 5/4 and 5/5 and 5/6 14 and 6/20 and nine -- whatever the reward check was, those 15 were paid out of KRL because you were out of town on 16 those dates, too? 17 A No. Probably because there was money in 18 those accounts. 19 Q So is the dentist -- is the dentist's 20 office incorporated? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. Is the dentist's office buying the 23 property? Or is Nadine -- are Nadine and Roland buying 24 the property at 505? 25 A Mmmm... Roland and Nadine. 1380 1 Q And the way the system would work -- if I 2 am right, if you could say, That's close -- is, Roland 3 and Nadine build a building and then they rent it to the 4 dentist's office and the dentist's office pays rent? 5 A I don't understand. 6 Q What are you going to build there? 7 A If we purchase the property? 8 Q Yes. 9 A The main thing was to fix the parking up 10 above. 11 Q Okay. 12 A That was our main concern. 13 Q So you, Roland and Nadine, would just 14 donate that to the dentist's office? Or would they build 15 a dentist's office for that property? 16 A I guess it would be part of the dental 17 office. Dental office is in mine and Nadine's name. 18 Q Okay. So you paid Sherrill with Check 19 4022 2,736 on or about 5/26/98? 20 A Correct. 21 Q Did you hand the check to Sherrill? Or 22 did you put it in the mail? Or do you know? 23 A I don't know. I think probably mail. 24 Q Okay. And then page 4 and 5 are basically 25 the receipts for crushed rock? 1381 1 A Right. 2 Q If that's true. 3 A Looks like hauling and rock. 4 Q Okay. And then Cashier's Check Number 5 0576019773 dated what date? 6 A May 28th, 1998. 7 Q And where did you get that money? 8 A I think that was a line of credit through 9 Wells Fargo. 10 Q And what city? 11 A Jackson. 12 Q So you went in to Wells Fargo and borrowed 13 money against a line of credit, you and Nadine? 14 A I believe so. 15 Q Could it have been KRL-borrowed money? 16 A No. My wife went in. And they had to 17 raise the line of credit for our business. She is the 18 one that withdrew the money. 19 Q And you are making payments on this? 20 A Correct. 21 Q And then you loaned that money to Dave 22 Mason? 23 A Correct. 24 Q And so is Dave Mason paying the money back 25 to you? 1382 1 A Mmmm... If we don't end up with the 2 property. It was an agreement and a note, that, soil and 3 everything tests out okay, then we were to purchase the 4 property. And I guess we will roll this over from a loan 5 into the purchase. 6 Q Call it square? 7 A Right. 8 Q So instead of paying $60,000 for the 9 property, if it comes up clean, you are going to be 10 paying 60,000 plus carrying the money for a year? 11 A Right. 12 Q Okay. Plus -- 13 A If it goes that long. 14 Q Plus KRL is going to bill you for all the 15 demolition? Is that your understanding? 16 A Mmmm... Correct. 17 Q This gets a little -- 18 A What hasn't been paid, you know. What was 19 paid out of KRL, we will get billed. What we have paid 20 so far. 21 Q So you know if KRL is the one that paid 22 the reward for the tank? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q October 20th letter to Larry White about 25 the wall, correct? 1383 1 A Correct. 2 Q $152 bill from Carstensen to you? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Escrow was recorded on May 29th, 1998 5 signed by Kris Lynn? 6 A Correct. 7 Q June 1st letter? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Kris Lynn's card and a copy of a 10 promissory note? 11 A Correct. 12 Q How did that promissory note work? You 13 didn't want to carry -- to use the property as collateral 14 because you might have been -- it might have been 15 contaminated? Or how did it work? 16 A Yeah, I think he put that up and another 17 piece of property he has. 18 Q If you don't want any property until it's 19 clean, why would you take a note against contaminated 20 property when you would never be able to foreclose on it 21 because you would be foreclosing on dirty property? 22 A Well, I think that's why we had him put up 23 his other piece of property as collateral. 24 Q Why, if you had a piece of property that 25 was contaminated but had no source of contamination, no 1384 1 existing potential for increased contamination, would you 2 then take the note against the piece of property that 3 probably has more chemicals on it than any property in 4 Amador County? 5 A Well, at the time, the soil and 6 everything, the City said was clean. My understanding, 7 they were waiting for the State to verify it. Sounded 8 like everything was -- 9 Q Soil where? 10 A The soil that was removed from the 11 property after the demolition of the service station. 12 They came in and did soil tests. 13 Q The City did? 14 A I think so. Somebody from the City, 15 environmentalists. 16 Q The City or the County? 17 A I am not sure. 18 Q Did you ever ask? 19 A No. 20 Q Did you ever hear anyone from the City or 21 the County say that the property was almost clean? 22 A Mmmm... I think I read something. I 23 don't know if that was from Dave Fourt. I think there is 24 a letter somewhere. 25 Q Bob Fourt maybe? 1385 1 A Bob Fourt stating that the soil wasn't 2 contaminated. 3 Q You have seen that letter? 4 A I thought it was in here. 5 Q Take a second. Skim through there. 6 A I know they are supposed to be drilling 7 test holes. I think even today they are supposed to be 8 out there. But that's through the State. 9 Q Hypothetically, if there hasn't been any 10 test holes dug, how would Bob Fourt have been able to 11 write a letter that says the soil is cleaned? 12 A Well, I think it's -- I don't know for 13 sure. Between the County and the City regulations and 14 State regulations, if one has to satisfy the other one. 15 Q Do you have City regulations for your 16 dental office? 17 A Mmmm... My business license is through 18 the City. 19 Q Do you have State regulations for your 20 business? 21 A I am sure there is. 22 Q Okay. So you think there is a letter. 23 And if you could find that letter sometime today or 24 tomorrow, we would be happy to make a copy of it and put 25 it into evidence. 1386 1 A I know I read something, because he -- 2 there was also when the tank -- my understanding, the 3 tank was removed in '90 or '91, the whole tank. It was 4 checked then. And the same thing this time. 5 Q Have you, yourself, since you bought the 6 property or before you bought the property or -- before 7 you started escrow on property, correct? I will ask a 8 different question. 9 You don't currently own the property at 10 505 Sutter, correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Escrow was opened, contamination was 13 found. Escrow was kind of put on hold. 14 A I don't think contamination was ever 15 found. I think that's what they were testing. 16 Q So here is a question. Hypothetically, 17 someone was next to your dad, and the bucket of the 18 backhoe hit the soil and gasoline comes spewing out of 19 the ground and your dad goes, Wow. 20 Your dad ever tell you that part of the 21 story? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you think he might have told you? You 24 were buying the property. 25 A Right. 1387 1 Q Right there on 5/4, 5/5/98. Gas comes out 2 of the ground. Everybody goes Wow, including your dad. 3 And he doesn't tell you about that? 4 A Did it happen? 5 Q Hypothetically. 6 Okay. If it happened, would you have 7 wanted your father to have told you? 8 A I am sure I would have. 9 Q Okay. So have you ever been to the County 10 to look at their file? 11 A No. 12 Q Okay. Basically, this is a setup system 13 for down the road someday. But we, being people working 14 on this file, had a complete copy of Environmental 15 Health's file as of whatever date this was asked for. 16 And we called it 505, which was for 505 Sutter. AEHD, 17 for Amador Environmental Health. Pages 1, and then the 18 binder goes all the way to page 445. Okay? So this 445 19 page was just on 505 Sutter street. 20 Have you ever looked at these 450 pages? 21 A No. 22 Q Have you ever been to the County and asked 23 to look at these? 24 A No. 25 Q Okay. Were you ever present when David 1388 1 Mason III told you or your father that the site was 2 clean? 3 A No. 4 Q Have you ever heard your dad tell the 5 Government or one of his friends that David Mason told 6 him the site was clean? 7 A No. 8 Q Have you ever heard George Ryan tell you 9 that David Mason came to the counter and said the site 10 was clean? 11 A No. 12 Q Okay. How many pieces of property have 13 you bought that you knew there were underground storage 14 tanks on that you didn't ask anybody ahead of time 15 whether or not there was contamination before you started 16 escrow from? 17 A None. 18 Q And in this case, do you wish you would 19 have asked? 20 A If I would have known, you know. It 21 surprises me that, when we got a permit, it's in my name, 22 owner builder, that they -- if it is such a crime to 23 demolish a gas station, why were they issuing a permit to 24 a an owner builder and not somebody that is certified? 25 MR. IREY: I am sorry. Could you reread my 1389 1 question. I think that was non-responsive. 2 (Record read as requested.) 3 THE WITNESS: I guess, you know, I would have 4 asked the City. I figured they would have said 5 something. 6 Q BY MR. IREY: Did you ask anybody? You, 7 Roland Womack? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you walk into the City counter and 10 say, Mr. Rouse, I am going to knock down a building owned 11 by Mr. Mason. Can you give me a permit to knock down Mr. 12 Mason's building? 13 A No. My dad was handling it for us. He 14 went in there and