IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF AMADOR ---oOo--- The People of the State of California) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) No. 98-0767 ) ROBERT ROLAND WOMACK, DAVID STERLING ) MASON III and MARK SHERRILL, ) Defendants. ) _____________________________________) PROCEEDINGS HELD BEFORE THE GRAND JURY NOVEMBER 18, 1998 VOLUME V APPEARANCES: For the People: DAVID J. IREY Deputy District Attorney Reported by: JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG, CSR No. 4643 1286 1 ---oOo--- 2 WITNESS INDEX Page 3 ROLAND WOMACK 4 Examination by Mr. Irey 1312 5 ROY TOMS Examination by Mr. Irey 1425 6 NICK TOMS 7 Examination by Mr. Irey 1441 8 KIMBERLY MOORE Examination by Mr. Irey 1456 9 RON BROWN 10 Examination by Mr. Irey 1500 11 JAKE STROM Examination by Mr. Irey 1559 12 BILL ADMIRE 13 Examination by Mr. Irey 1568 14 MIKE WOMACK Examination by Mr. Irey 1577 15 DOUG MONDANI 16 Examination by Mr. Irey 1592 17 ---oOo--- 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1287 1 E X H I B I T S 2 Exhibit No. Description Ref. 3 4 14 Certificate of Tank Destruction 1337 5 18 George Ryan's File 1343 6 28 Building Department Street File 1414 7 31 Original Check 1410 8 48 Business Cards 1474 9 50 List of Property 1474 10 58 Voluntary Withdrawal from 1466 Partnership 11 59 Voluntary Withdrawal from 1464 12 Partnership 13 60 Voluntary Withdrawal from 1468 Partnership 14 66 Check to Hernandez 1334 15 67 Check to Hernandez 1334 16 70 Letter from George Ryan 1325 17 71 Roland Womack's File 1367 18 72 Check Register 1478 19 73 Information sent to Mr. Brown 1513 20 ---oOo--- 21 22 23 24 25 1288 1 JACKSON, CALIF., TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 18, 1998, 9:30 A.M. 2 BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF AMADOR COUNTY 3 ---oOo--- 4 THE FOREPERSON: We will call roll. 5 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 6 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Here. 7 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 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IREY: Roland Womack. 2 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Womack, if you could step 3 up here and remain standing, please, and raise your right 4 hand. 5 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 6 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 7 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 8 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 9 THE WITNESS: I do. 10 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 11 12 (TIME NOTED: 9:57 A.M.) 13 ---oOo--- 14 ROLAND WOMACK 15 Called as a witness herein by the People, 16 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 17 and testified as follows: 18 19 MR. IREY: Mr. Womack, could you -- I apologize. 20 Yes, Mr. Foreman. If you could read that admonition 21 also. 22 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Mr. Womack, you are 23 advised under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution of 24 the United States and also under Article 1 of the 25 California Constitution that you have a privilege against 1312 1 self-incrimination. That is to say, you do not have to 2 answer any questions that may tend to incriminate you or 3 subject you to punishment for a crime. And you can 4 refuse to answer any such questions by stating that the 5 answer may tend to incriminate you. 6 Do you understand? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 8 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 9 10 EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. IREY: 12 Q Mr. Womack, I wanted to additionally read 13 a statute to you. Penal Code Section 118, what 14 constitutes perjury. 15 "Every person who, having taken an oath 16 that he or she will testify, declare, depose or 17 certify truly before any competent tribunal, 18 officer or person in any of the cases in which the 19 oath made by law of the State of California be 20 administered, willfully and contrary to the oath 21 states as true any material matter which he or she 22 knows to be false, and every person who testifies, 23 declares, deposes or certifies under penalty of 24 perjury in any case -- in any of the cases in 25 which the testimony, declarations, depositions or 1313 1 certification is permitted by law of the State of 2 California under penalty of perjury, and willfully 3 states as true any material matter which he or she 4 knows to be false is guilty of perjury. 5 "This subdivision is applicable 6 whether the statement or testimony, declaration, 7 deposition or certification is made or subscribed 8 within or without the State of California. 9 Perjury is punishable by two, four or six years in 10 prison." 11 With that said, Mr. Womack, are you going 12 to use your Constitutional rights and not answer any 13 questions based on your Fifth Amendment right to 14 self-incrimination? 15 A It depends what's asked, I guess. 16 Q Okay. Mr. Womack, if you could spell your 17 entire name for the record and give your date of birth. 18 A R-O-L-A-N-D, E-R-N-E-S-T, W-O-M-A-C-K. 19 Q Mr. Womack -- 20 A You want date of birth? 21 Q Sure, please. 22 A 5/27/63. 23 Q Last person in the back row needs to hear 24 you, Mr. Womack. And if possible, if you could give 25 audible answers, instead of shaking your head or uh-huhs 1314 1 for the court reporter, please. 2 A Sorry. 3 Q Are you nervous, Mr. Womack? 4 A A little bit. 5 Q How many times have you testified in the 6 past? 7 A This is the first. 8 Q Okay. Again, I don't think they can hear 9 you in the back. You are going to need to -- 10 A Okay. 11 Q A little louder. Okay? 12 A Okay. 13 Q Thanks. You are a businessman in town, 14 Mr. Womack? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And what is your primary business? 17 A I am a dentist. 18 Q Okay. In order to become a dentist, do 19 you have to go to school? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. And then do you have to do some 22 type of residency? 23 A No. 24 Q Okay. So you go to school. Where did you 25 go to dental school? 1315 1 A UOP in San Francisco. 2 Q Okay. You graduated from there? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And then are there some types of board 5 certifications required? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And what year did you take those board 8 certifications? 9 A 1988. 10 Q And since 1988, then you have been what's 11 called a board-certified dentist? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Have you always practiced in Jackson, 14 California? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And has anybody, if you recall, told you 17 just to answer yes or no today? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you have a counsel in this case? 20 A Mmmm... No, not really. I haven't spoken 21 to an attorney or anything about it. 22 Q You have not? 23 A No. 24 Q Are there rules to being a dentist, 25 certain things you have to comply with in order to 1316 1 maintain your license? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Schooling? 4 A Yes. CE courses. 5 Q And CE is continuing education? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you have to do that or otherwise they 8 take your license away? 9 A Right. 10 Q Any other rules or techniques or 11 requirements of being a dentist? 12 A Mmmm... Code of Ethics. There is OSHA 13 regulations. Those are the main ones that I know. 14 Q Ways to handle needles, things like that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. And you try to comply with those? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q If you didn't comply with those, that 19 would be a violation of the law? 20 A Mm-hmm, yes. 21 Q Okay. And a violation of the law, they 22 have some penalties that are associated with them. Is 23 that your understanding? 24 A Mm-hmm, yes. 25 Q From, Please don't do it again, Mr. 1317 1 Womack, to taking your license away? 2 A Right. 3 Q Okay. And then let's say, with a 4 building, permits are required with that sometimes? 5 A I assume so, yeah. 6 Q The building on Sutter Street. Did you 7 start work on that building without permits? 8 A My dental office, you are referring to? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A No. 11 Q Did you do more work than what was in your 12 permits? 13 A I don't believe so. 14 Q Okay. So your brother testified earlier 15 this week. 16 How many times have you talked to your 17 brother Luke since Monday? 18 A I haven't talked to him. 19 Q At all? 20 A Nope. 21 Q If you know, how many times has your dad 22 talked to him? 23 A I don't know if he has talked to him. He 24 hasn't said. 25 Q How many times have you spoken with your 1318 1 dad since Monday? 2 A Couple times. 3 Q Did you have breakfast with him this 4 morning? 5 A No. 6 Q Who owns that '78 four-wheel drive pickup 7 that Luke used to own? 8 A Yellow one? 9 Q I don't know what color it is. 10 A If it's the yellow one, it's not 11 four-wheel drive. Luke or my dad. 12 Q How many cars does your dad own? 13 A Two, I think. 14 Q What cars? 15 A I think that pickup is probably in his 16 name and possibly the Navigator, Lincoln Navigator. 17 Q Okay. We are probably going to be here a 18 few hours, Mr. Womack. So if at any time you need to 19 take a break -- in fact, Mr. Foreman, I think that, if 20 possible, if we could take breaks maybe every 45 minutes 21 or an hour for just five minutes. I think it's going to 22 be a pretty long morning. 23 It's up to the Grand Jury, of course. 24 THE FOREPERSON: At this point, we will go to 25 11:00. 1319 1 MR. IREY: That's fine. 2 Q So Mr. Womack, I have already had some 3 indications from the Members of the Jury that they would 4 like -- did I say Womack or Wolin? Nobody can answer 5 that. If I called you Mr. Wolin, I apologize. 6 Mr. Womack, people in the back row 7 definitely need to hear what you have to say. They have 8 been waiting quite a long period of time. 9 THE FOREPERSON: At this time, should we activate 10 the microphone? 11 MR. IREY: All technological whizzes. 12 THE FOREPERSON: We know where the control are. 13 MR. IREY: No need to put Mr. Womack out. 14 Q Count one through ten. Give your name, 15 please. 16 A One, two, three, four, five. 17 (Pause in proceedings.) 18 Q BY MR. IREY: Mr. Womack, if at all 19 possible, but you don't have to follow my instructions 20 completely at this time. At some point, I will make a 21 determination whether or not I have to treat you as an 22 adverse witness. 23 Essentially, once I do that, I could say, 24 Isn't it true A, B, C, D? And then you have to answer 25 those questions until a point where you make a decision 1320 1 that you don't want to -- that you want to impose any of 2 your constitutionally allowed rights, which is perfectly 3 okay. 4 But at this point, I would like you to try 5 to answer narratives when you have the ability. So my 6 question goes something like this: Other than the two 7 cars, the Navigator and the pickup, the '78 pickup, what 8 other cars do you think your father currently owns? 9 A I don't think there is any other cars. 10 Q Okay. So what cars do you think KRL owns? 11 A Mmmm... There is a Lincoln Continental. 12 There is a '34 Ford. We have a '57 T-bird, a '62 Chevy. 13 And we sold one. That's probably it. I don't have the 14 titles. You know that. 15 Q We can show those to you, though? 16 A Okay. 17 Q We are just asking you what you remember 18 owning. 19 A Okay. 20 Q For instance, if you ask -- 21 hypothetically, if you asked the person next to your 22 business, What cars do you own? Do you think that person 23 would be able to answer without looking at the titles? 24 A Depends how many cars and situation. 25 Q Okay. So we are trying to learn in this 1321 1 set of questions -- I can't tell you what we are trying 2 to learn. 3 Without showing you documentation, we are 4 trying to see what your best recollection is of some of 5 these issues. 6 A All right. 7 Q Okay. So the best recollection is, Dad 8 owns two cars, this Ford pickup -- what if your brother 9 Luke told us he traded the Ford pickup straight across to 10 KRL for a '92 pickup? I'm sorry. I will rephrase that. 11 What if your brother -- rephrase this. 12 Do you think your brother was telling us 13 the truth when can he said he traded his '78 pickup 14 straight across for the '92 pickup to KRL? 15 A Well, he has HAD the '92 pickup for a few 16 years. I am not sure on the title, if that was ever 17 transferred over into his name or if it's still in 18 KRL's. I would have to look at the title. I thought the 19 yellow pickup may still be in his name. I don't know if 20 it's in my dad's name yet or not. 21 Q So Luke insures your dad when he drives 22 it? Or it's like a four-year loan? 23 A My dad has his own insurance. 24 Q Okay. But he is listed as the owner, is 25 Luke? 1322 1 A Luke or my dad. I am not sure at this 2 time. 3 Q Okay. And who owns the '92? 4 A Again, it's either Luke's name or KRL's. 5 I don't know if it ever got transferred over to his name. 6 Q Okay. So at this point, you have said it 7 might be in Luke's name, it might be in KRL's name and it 8 might be in your dad's name. 9 A Not the '92. I don't think the '92 was 10 ever in my dad's name. 11 Q The '78 might be in your dad's name, might 12 be in Luke's name, might be in KRL's name? 13 A I think Luke or my dad's. I don't think 14 KRL would have an interest in it. 15 Q Okay. What other types of motor vehicles 16 does KRL own? 17 A A couple dune buggies, a couple street 18 bikes. Besides a tractor and a few things. But they are 19 not, you know, vehicles. 20 Q Motor home? 21 A Mmmm... No, I don't believe so. 22 Q Motor home registered in Oregon, kept in 23 Oregon, '93? 24 A Trailer in Oregon. I don't know if it's 25 registered as a motor home. It's a trailer. 1323 1 Q Do you remember when your dad or KRL 2 bought the Navigator? 3 A It's a '96, I think, '97. 4 Q '98 maybe? 5 A Could be. '97. It's pretty new. 6 Q In the last -- how old are you? 7 A Thirty-five. 8 Q In the last 35 years, do you remember how 9 many times your dad has lived in Oregon to become a 10 resident, if you know? 11 A Driver's license there and residence. But 12 we have never -- I have never lived in Oregon. 13 Q Does he boat there? 14 A No. 15 Q So he has a driver's license there? 16 A I believe so. 17 Q And he has a driver's license in 18 California? 19 A Mmmm... I think so. He has a place in 20 Oregon and he does a lot of traveling up there. We have 21 the trailer. And he has relatives. And I think he 22 double registered it. DMV or Highway Patrol said, you 23 know, one or the other. Spent a lot of time up there and 24 a lot of time down here. So I think he ended up having 25 to dual register. 1324 1 Q On your dad? Or on your dad's vehicles? 2 A I think on both. 3 Q So how many driver's licenses do you have? 4 A I have one. 5 Q California? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q Okay. So back to this Navigator. So do 8 you remember what state the Navigator was purchased? 9 A Oregon or California. 10 Q Mr. Womack, whenever possible, if you 11 could just go ahead and, if you choose -- I will tell you 12 about the repercussions if you don't choose. If you 13 could think about the question and say, I am pretty sure 14 X or I have no idea. 15 What happens is, the Grand Jury at the end 16 can ask any question they want. They may at some times 17 say, Well, was it A or B? If you don't know, you don't 18 know. All can you do is testify truthfully. 19 To the best of your recollection, where 20 was the Navigator purchased? 21 A I can't answer it. 22 Q To the best of your recollection, who 23 purchased the Navigator? 24 A KRL. 25 I have a question here. I thought this 1325 1 was going to be on the gas station. Why are we probing 2 into KRL and personal matters? 3 Q I can't answer your question. 4 A I mean, that's what I was informed that's 5 what the summons, it appeared to me, the property on 505 6 Sutter and the deal with the gas station. I understand 7 why -- 8 Q We will get back to the Navigator in a 9 moment or in a few hours, whenever we get to the 10 Navigator again. 11 Let's start with August 3rd letter from 12 George Ryan marked Grand Jury Exhibit 70. First page is 13 cover letter. You see that? 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q And then the second page. Do you 16 recognize the agreement of purchase and sale? You can go 17 ahead and look through the document, if you could. 18 Describe whether it's one document or two documents to 19 the Members of the Grand Jury, please. 20 A It looks like one document. 21 Q All the way in the back, if you could? 22 A I think it's one document. I have 23 something here, too, but it's not a -- this isn't the 24 recorded document. Recorded document, I think, is it's 25 just Nadine and my name. This was an addendum or 1326 1 something. 2 Originally, George Ryan had set up in KRL, 3 and it was separate purchase from Nadine and I. I have 4 that here. 5 Q On one of the breaks, if you have the 6 documents we asked for several weeks ago -- be happy if 7 what your documents are, are the ones we requested 8 pursuant to our subpoena earlier this week, and it's 9 all-encompassing -- I will be happy to review that. I 10 can't look at it and show it to people without bouncing 11 it off the investigator. 12 A I know, originally, George Ryan does a lot 13 of work for KRL. He thought it was going to be something 14 purchased by KRL. That's how the original document is 15 written up. 16 And Nadine called and told him, No. It 17 was a purchase separately. Just Nadine and I. 18 Q I'm sorry. I don't think you can testify 19 to what Nadine said. If Nadine talked to George, you can 20 say, My wife Nadine spoke to George. 21 I will start this again. 22 When you refer to Nadine, that's your 23 wife, correct? 24 A Right. 25 Q It's Nadine Womack, your wife? 1327 1 A Right. 2 Q So although you can't testify to what she 3 said, you can testify that, I asked her to call or we 4 went by or something like that. And then that will help. 5 Because what we are looking for is the truth. 6 And I think, to help you on your earlier 7 question, we will ask questions related to KRL to make a 8 determination -- I can't do that. 9 Part of the Grand Jury's duties are to 10 determine what or who violated the law. And some of the 11 issues that they seem to have expressed to this point 12 are, was it KRL committing violations of the law? Or was 13 it Robert Womack? And so KRL is intimately entwined in 14 this investigation. 15 A KRL doesn't have -- there's nothing on the 16 documents. It's a separate purchase for Nadine and I, 17 just like my dental office. 18 Q So let's talk about KRL. You say there is 19 nothing on KRL? 20 A On the purchase of 505 Sutter. That's 21 supposed to be Nadine and my name. 22 Q At this time? 23 A The whole time. 24 Q So this document, if you could read the 25 first paragraph into the record, please. 1328 1 A "David S. Mason III, Miriam Mason, his 2 wife, and David S. Mason III, trustee of Mason Family 3 1977 Revokable Trust, agrees to sell partnership or 4 nominee herein called buyer and buyer agrees to purchase 5 from seller the improved real property herein called... 6 Amador County." 7 Q That says agrees to sell to KRL 8 Partnership, correct? 9 A Typo there. 10 Q A typo. 11 Then back here on page 11, it says buyer, 12 KRL Partnership, by whom? 13 A It's my name. 14 Q Your signature? 15 A Right. 16 Q So you signed a document that said buyer 17 KRL? 18 A No, no. I wasn't signing for KRL. 19 Q Just a mistake? 20 A Well, originally, George had written up 21 the contract in KRL's name. And something to do with, I 22 don't know, environmental -- Dave Mason needed a paper 23 drawn up for the City, something to do with the permit. 24 And George Ryan had wrote up that paper. Went out. 25 And but we told him that we were 1329 1 purchasing the property ourselves. It was nothing to do 2 originally with KRL. It was Nadine and mine. I don't 3 know how to explain it. I am not real sure. But it went 4 out as a mistake. George Ryan should know that. 5 Nadine, like I said, called up there and 6 talked to him and told him this was a purchase through 7 Nadine and I. 8 Q That was before or after the tank came out 9 of the ground? 10 A It was all around that time period. It 11 was before. I have the documents here that show the note 12 and show the dates. 13 Q We will look at that in a break. We are 14 willing to provide any information to the Grand Jury that 15 they deem appropriate, including what you have brought, 16 Mr. Womack. 17 However, the document I just showed you 18 that you signed on 4/30/98 said KRL. You saw that, 19 correct? 20 A Right. 21 Q So sometime between 4/30/98 and the tank 22 coming out, you went to Las Vegas, correct? 23 A Mmmm... I am not sure. What day is that? 24 Q It might help you refresh your 25 recollection that you told Investigator Hall that you 1330 1 weren't even in town when the tank came out? 2 A True. 3 Q You were in Vegas? 4 A True. 5 Q So if that was on 5/2 that the tank came 6 out of the ground -- 7 A Right. 8 Q Hypothetically. And on 4/30, you signed 9 this contract. Then when between when you signed this 10 contract on 4/30 and the tank came out of the ground did 11 you contact George Ryan's office to say, Error, error, 12 error? 13 A May have been the next day. It was a 14 short period of time. It was right around when all this 15 was getting recorded. 16 But my dad -- 99 percent of the stuff 17 George Ryan does is for KRL Partnership. He has done a 18 few things for Nadine and I. My dad was handling this as 19 a favor to Nadine and I. And he went to the title 20 company and George -- you know, they just figured it was 21 probably a KRL purchase until we talked to him. 22 Q Okay. Then attached to this letter -- 23 although you called it one document, for the record, it's 24 a cover letter dated August 3rd, '98, correct? From 25 George Ryan? 1331 1 A Yeah. 2 Q Can you hear? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And then an agreement of purchase and sale 5 of improved property, one page, two pages, three pages, 6 four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven. 7 Correct? 8 A Mm-hmm. 9 Q If you could answer yes for the court 10 reporter, if it's yes; no, if it's no? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. And then there is another page 13 attached as Exhibit A, correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Signed 4/30/98 by David Mason or what 16 appears to be David Mason's signature? 17 A Yeah. 18 Q And then there is an addendum to 19 agreement, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q One page, two page, three pages. 22 A Yes. 23 Q And this one is an unsigned copy, correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And who does it say is the purchaser? 1332 1 A "Whereas, the said agreement did provide 2 that KRL Partnership could designate nominee to purchase 3 the property at interest" -- 4 THE REPORTER: I can't hear. 5 MR. IREY: She can't hear you. That absolutely 6 means the guy in the cheap seats can't hear you. 7 THE WITNESS: "The vendor's interest under the 8 agreement of purchase and sale is hereby assigned to 9 Roland and Nadine Womack." 10 What's the date on this one? 11 Q BY MR. IREY: So that three-page document 12 about loan that starts on June 29th, 1998? 13 A Right. 14 Q Okay. So does that help refresh your 15 recollection about when this document was signed? Was it 16 a loan from June 28th, 1998 until May 29th, 1999? Or did 17 you give interest free for two months? 18 A Yeah. There was a time period there that 19 we gave to Dave. It was -- I know it was a month or so 20 before. Because he was -- he was dealing with 21 environmental on the soil, environment on the soil. 22 Q The soil at 505? 23 A Right. 24 Q Not the soil that KRL hauled to Sherrill's 25 property? Not that soil? 1333 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Okay. I will ask this question. Have you 3 spent one minute of your life dealing with the 4 contaminated soil at Sherrill's property? 5 A No, I haven't. 6 Q Have you spent one minute of your life 7 dealing with the contaminated soil at the old mill? 8 A I don't know what contaminated soil you 9 are talking about. 10 Q Okay. 11 A Right now it's all confusing to me. I 12 seen a note the other day, letter from Lodi, saying that 13 there wasn't any contaminants in the tank. There was no 14 hazardous waste in the tank at all. 15 Q Gasoline that was in your gas tank in 16 May -- is it still in your gas tank of your vehicle? 17 A Probably not. 18 Q Okay. 19 A But when is -- from the note I read in 20 Lodi, the tank had water and pea gravel in it. 21 Q How about we do it this way for the next 22 28 minutes. 23 Mr. Womack, you have the right and 24 responsibility to provide truth to the Grand Jury. 25 That's your understanding, correct? 1334 1 A Correct. 2 Q And there are some what's called 3 exculpatory evidence that you wanted to present to the 4 Grand Jury, correct? 5 A Well, right now, I am just -- I'm a little 6 confused on, you know, the real reason I am here. I 7 thought we were to discuss the tank removal, gas station, 8 site of the gas station. 9 Things to do with KRL, I do not have 10 documents here. I don't know why KRL is involved. 11 Q So far we have talked about one document, 12 Grand Jury Exhibit 70, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q KRL is on how many of the pages in this 15 one document? 16 A It's... 17 Q We won't even look at this document. 18 Let's look at Grand Jury Exhibit 67. Is 19 KRL's name on that document? 20 A Right. 21 Q Grand Jury Exhibit 66. Is KRL's name on 22 that document? 23 A Right. 24 Q Okay. So again, I am offering, if at this 25 time -- 1335 1 A That doesn't mean that KRL is purchasing 2 the property. 3 Q Okay. How many -- 4 A Excuse me. 5 Q I am asking about the purchase of the 6 property at this time. 7 A Okay. 8 Q I am asking about if you have evidence you 9 would like to present to the Grand Jury that would show 10 no crime was committed. And if you have any of that, I 11 would be happy to let you present that to the Grand Jury 12 at this time. 13 If it is in documentary form, I want to 14 review it. And I would be happy to look at it while you 15 are testifying as to what is exculpatory. 16 If, for instance, you have County permits 17 or soil results or anything along those lines, I will 18 present it to the Grand Jury. If you had nothing do with 19 it because you were in Las Vegas, you can present that. 20 Because there are several people being investigated, as 21 you have read in the paper, and helped -- we are just 22 looking for the truth. 23 So at this point -- and I will give you 24 the same invitation later in your testimony. You might 25 be here for a day, two days, three days. I have no 1336 1 idea. We are only on three pages of a ten-page document. 2 And so far, you have told us -- all of that stuff is 3 long. I am going to have to go through, kind of like 4 pulling teeth, and ask you, KRL/Bob Womack/June 5 Womack/Dave Mason questions. That's what we are here to 6 ask. 7 So at this time, do you have any statement 8 that you want to make to the Grand Jurors about who did 9 what on what day? 10 A Well, just stuff that I have seen and 11 read. There are a few documents out there. I just saw 12 one the other day. I just told you. The tank. I mean, 13 it was tested. You know, I was concerned when it 14 originally came to us and told us the tank was hazardous 15 and been removed. Then I see a document the other day 16 that it wasn't hazardous and -- 17 Q What day was that date? 18 A I just saw it a couple days ago. 19 Q We might have a copy of that. 20 Was it dated November 12th, seven months 21 after the tank came out of the ground? 22 A Possibly. 23 Q Possibly? Or do you remember? 24 A I don't remember for sure the exact date 25 on there. 1337 1 Q So that's one document that you wanted the 2 Grand Jurors to see, correct? 3 A I think so. I think it's pertinent. 4 Q Okay. This has been marked Grand Jury 5 Exhibit 14, three pages. I don't know if it's called a 6 three-page document. 7 A This is what I saw. 8 Q Okay. 9 A It's dated November 12th. 10 But we don't have -- you know, the tank, 11 from what I heard, you said it was hazardous and it had 12 to be destroyed. 13 Q Who told you that? 14 A My dad did. 15 Q Did your dad tell you from May 1st until 16 this morning that he is the one that hauled the tank 17 away? 18 A No. 19 Q He has never told you that? 20 A No. 21 Q You are sure? 22 A Positive. 23 Q Okay. Would it surprise you if your dad 24 hauled the tank away? 25 A No. 1338 1 Q Why wouldn't it surprise you that your dad 2 hauled the tank away? 3 A Didn't think it was hazardous. I don't 4 know. 5 Q How many meetings have you been present at 6 when he told people that he had no idea what happened to 7 the tank that day? 8 A The one we met, where we all met. 9 Q That was the only time? 10 A The only meeting I have been to. 11 Q How many times have you heard him tell 12 others just out in passing that he didn't know where the 13 tank went? 14 A I don't know. Several maybe. 15 Q But it wouldn't surprise you that really 16 he hauled the tank? 17 A Sherrill, Wolin. There was quite a few 18 there. Somebody had to haul it. 19 Q You weren't there? 20 A What I am getting at, if it wasn't 21 hazardous -- even though this is dated November 12th, 22 there has got to be a way to test the tank to see what 23 was in there originally, if it was changed, fumes, 24 something. I mean -- 25 Q Well, let's ask you this question, as 1339 1 the -- what are you for KRL? 2 A Partner. 3 Q So we are going to bounce back and forth 4 from KRL. 5 Who are the partners in KRL today, if you 6 know? 7 A I think Larry, my brother and I. 8 Q Okay. And that -- how much of the 9 partnership do you own? 10 A Could be a quarter. 11 Q You own a quarter? 12 A (Witness nods head.) Yeah. Be a quarter 13 anyway. 14 Q And Larry owns three quarters? 15 A No. I think he would own a quarter. 16 Q And who owns the other half? 17 A Well, legally, on paper, it's probably 18 Larry and I each own 50 percent. But we got a verbal 19 agreement between Luke and my sister, too. We are all 20 equal partners. 21 Q I'm sorry. That's yours. 22 Okay. So there is a verbal agreement that 23 all four kids each own a quarter? 24 A Right. 25 Q That's your understanding. And when was 1340 1 that verbal agreement made? 2 A Years ago, I guess. 3 Q Okay. And about how many years ago? 4 A I can't say for sure. 5 Q Let's use the day your dental office 6 opened on Sutter Street as a historic date. Around early 7 '95, correct? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q Okay. So did you guys have this handshake 10 deal before that or after that? 11 A It has just always been agreed upon that 12 it was equal partners. Brothers and sisters. You know, 13 just equal partners. Nobody had a majority share or... 14 Q Okay. So as equal partners, how many 15 times have you personally observed Kimberly make a 16 decision regarding sales of property in the last five 17 years? 18 A Not often. She doesn't live around here 19 any more. 20 Q Dixon? Hour and 35 minutes? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And last week you sold property worth -- 23 or in the last seven weeks, how much property has KRL 24 disposed of? 25 A I am not sure. 1341 1 Q Over a million? 2 A Million? 3 Q Dollars? 4 A I don't believe so. 5 Q How much was the ranch you guys sold to 6 the casino? 7 A It was seven something. 8 Q Okay. Did Kimberly have a vote in that? 9 A I don't know what you mean by vote. It 10 was agreed upon. 11 Q What if it were 2 million? Did she say, 12 don't sell it for 700,000; it's worth 2 million. How 13 does that work? 14 A We take my dad's advice. And if it sounds 15 like a good deal, we go with it. That's why he is 16 working for KRL and manages it. He is more knowledgeable 17 when it comes to contracts. 18 It was set up originally as an inheritance 19 for us kids. Accountant suggested it at the time for tax 20 purposes, inheritance. And that's why the partnership is 21 in existence. My dad finds a lot of the deals and let's 22 us know about it. And maybe we don't sit down and, you 23 know, take votes. It's my dad. We trust what he does. 24 Q This is Grand Jury Exhibit 66. Do you 25 recognize the handwriting on that check? 1342 1 A Yeah, it looks like my dad's. 2 Q And the signature? 3 A Yeah. It looks like my dad's. 4 Q Same on Grand Jury Exhibit 67? 5 A Yeah. It's the same. 6 Q This should be an easy one. 7 If Nadine and Roland bought 505, how come 8 KRL paid for the demolition? 9 A We haven't bought it yet, but because that 10 all comes out -- my dad keeps track. End of the year, he 11 goes to an accountant and he draws -- or anything out of 12 KRL, where it goes, it goes to 505, shows Roland and 13 Nadine. That would be part of our expenses and incomes. 14 Other things get drawn out and he keeps records of where 15 all the expenses go. And it's figured up at the end of 16 the year. 17 Q Okay. Other than the checks from KRL, did 18 you write any checks on the purchase or the loan at 505 19 Sutter Street? 20 A Well, on the loan to Dave Mason. 21 Q Okay. How much money did you loan Dave 22 Mason? 23 A 60,000. 24 Q Okay. Basically, $5,000 late, late April 25 or early, early May, correct? 1343 1 A I think so. 2 Q Okay. And then 55,000 around the end of 3 May? 4 A Yes. 5 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 6 18. It's the escrow file. I think it's what's called an 7 escrow file. From Mr. Ryan's office. 8 Top of the first page when you open the 9 cover, it lists Receipts. Do you see that? 10 A Right. 11 Q And then it has whose name? 12 A Roland E. Womack and Nadine Womack. 13 Q And then there is an amount? 14 A Yes. 5,000. 15 Q Okay. And does that help refresh your 16 recollection on whether or not you and Nadine paid the 17 5,000? 18 A No. I knew we paid it. I wasn't sure on 19 the date. 20 Q Okay. This is the escrow file. I grabbed 21 this office note on the front page. You see that? 22 A Right. 23 Q And then right here, somewhere in there, 24 is there an order number? Do you see who is the 25 purchaser? 1344 1 A I see order number. 2 Q What about the next line that says 3 purchaser? 4 A Yeah, it's KRL Partnership. 5 Q Okay. And -- okay. So $5,000. Which 6 account of yours did that money come out of, if you 7 remember? 8 A Mmmm... I think we got a loan, withdrawal 9 from a Wells Fargo. 10 Q That was for the big check, correct? 11 A The 5,000 and the -- the 55,000, my wife 12 made the checks out. I am not sure. I know we had to get 13 a line of credit. 14 Q Okay. So your wife made the checks out? 15 A Right. It was either out of -- the big 16 one, I am sure, is when we had to get a line of credit 17 from Wells Fargo. 18 Q Okay. Who purchased the dental building? 19 KRL or you and Nadine? 20 A Nadine and I. 21 Q Who purchased the property where you 22 currently live? 23 A That was KRL. 24 Q Who owns the property where you currently 25 live? 1345 1 A Nadine and I. 2 Q You bought it from KRL? 3 A It's in our name. 4 Q Was it a gift from KRL? 5 A I -- I guess so. I don't remember. 6 Q Here we go. Check 3958. Is that your 7 business account? 8 A Yes. 9 Q So your business account paid $5,000 on 10 5/1/98? 11 A Looks like it. 12 Q Okay. And so Nadine and Roland Womack 13 were buying 505 Sutter as of 5/1/98. Is that your 14 understanding? 15 A Ever since we even talked about it, it was 16 always agreed upon that we were purchasing the property. 17 Q So then you owned the tank? 18 A Supposedly. It was never even discussed 19 that KRL was going to buy this property. It was always 20 Nadine and I were the ones that were interested in it and 21 wanting to do the improvements to it. 22 Q But yet you signed how many documents that 23 said KRL? 24 A Yeah, the ones you showed there. I know 25 the final one is in our name. 1346 1 Q Okay. So you have this handshake 2 agreement with your brother and sister. You think you 3 own a half and you think Larry owns half. 4 And do you know that Larry is getting 5 evicted out of Marysville as we speak? 6 A That's news to me. 7 Q Okay. Was your dad really mad at him when 8 he sold the house from under him? Or just a little mad? 9 A Sold Larry's house? 10 Q Yeah. 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Was it vindictive? 13 A No. 14 Q Did he talk to you about it before he did 15 it? 16 A He mentioned it, the house was for sale. 17 Q We heard a story somewhere hypothetically 18 that Larry used your dad's house for the weekend. Your 19 dad got PO'ed. Your dad came back and sold Larry's 20 house. 21 Does that sound familiar? 22 A Well, my brother has done a few things. 23 Q Strike that as non-responsive. 24 Does that story sound familiar? 25 A Yes. 1347 1 Q Okay. Is that what happened? 2 A I don't know. Dad gets mad one day and 3 then, next day, he cools down. And Larry is fine. I 4 thought it was because Larry had a job in Marysville and 5 he was moving to Marysville. No, the reason he was 6 selling the house -- 7 Q So you don't know one way or the other if 8 that's why the house was sold? 9 A Well, my dad's house -- 10 Q I guess my next question would be, if 11 Larry owned half the partnership and you owned half the 12 partnership, doesn't Larry get a vote whether his house 13 gets sold? 14 A That's what I was trying to say. I don't 15 think my dad has -- legally sell the house. It's in 16 KRL's name. 17 Q Oh, okay. So walk us through KRL in the 18 '90s, how it's operated. 19 Let's say, how many hours a week does 20 Larry work for KRL? 21 A Doesn't work for KRL. 22 Q How many hours a week does Kimberly work 23 for KRL? 24 A There is no set hours. 25 Q How many hours per year do you think 1348 1 Kimberly works for KRL? 2 A Don't keep timecards. 3 Q Okay. Let's say hypothetically Luke 4 testified about these same issues. Okay? Can I ask you 5 some questions and maybe bounce some potential Luke 6 answers off you? Maybe that would help refresh your 7 recollection. 8 A Okay. 9 Q Luke hypothetically told us that: The 10 family was mad at me because I got my girlfriend pregnant 11 and we had a fight. So I gave up my share in KRL. 12 Does that sound familiar? 13 A I have heard that. 14 Q Was your dad mad at him when he got his 15 girlfriend pregnant? 16 A He was upset. 17 Q Did your dad force him to give up his 18 almost 1.2 or 3 million dollars in KRL at that point? 19 A No. 20 Q Because he still owns it, according to 21 you? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q So if you have $1.2 million, your 24 understanding of law or accounting, and you give me $1.2 25 million of KRL, is that a gift? 1349 1 A Sounds like it. 2 Q Did you pay gift tax on your $1.2 million 3 gift from Luke to you? 4 A Have to talk to the accountant. I am not 5 sure. 6 Q Okay. Do you remember whether or not 7 Kimberly gave her shares to you? 8 A No. The main reason that Larry and I were 9 on there instead of all four of us was basically for 10 signing documents. It was such a hassle to have all four 11 of us sign. And my understanding, it's two signatures. 12 And it was more of a convenience. 13 Q Last year, for a while, June Womack and 14 Robert Womack were on these partnership agreements, 15 correct? 16 A I think at one time, they were. They were 17 on there. 18 Q If you recall, last year, 1997, were June 19 Womack and Robert Womack on the agreement? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q What type of KRL paperwork do you keep at 22 your home or your place of business? 23 A Mmmm... Very little. It's at an office 24 on Ridge Road. That's where the office is we keep 25 everything. 1350 1 Q That's the office that was searched, 2 correct? 3 A Right. 4 Q Did you tell your dad his house was 5 trashed? 6 A No. 7 Q So if your dad -- was your dad's house 8 trashed? 9 A It was gone over pretty well. 10 Q What's "trashed" mean to you? Anything 11 broken? 12 A Mmmm... No. 13 Q How many people were there? 14 A When I got there, there was six, seven, 15 something like that. 16 Q Is that the max you saw there at any one 17 time? One marked unit? 18 A I think there was one marked unit and 19 three -- two or three cars there, one marked. 20 Q Three Highway Patrol people, three D.A. 21 investigators? 22 A Possibly. 23 Q Any more? 24 A Mmmm... No, right around six or eight. 25 Q So your dad's house was gone over pretty 1351 1 thoroughly. That's your understanding? 2 A Right. 3 Q But you were only there for part of the 4 search that was related to finding the videotape and a 5 couple other issues, correct? You weren't there opening 6 the safe? 7 A Yeah. I -- supposedly, they got there 8 8:30 or 9:00 or so. I didn't get called until about 9 noon. 10 Q Really. Who told you that? 11 A My wife. I was finishing a patient. She 12 said they just called and wanted me to come over and open 13 the safe. 14 Q That was 8:30 or 9:00 a.m.? 15 A No. That was around noon. 16 Q So they called your wife at 8:30, it's 17 your understanding? 18 A No. This -- they called her right before 19 noon and told her they were over there and needed to get 20 into the safe. 21 Q And how do you know they were there at 22 8:30? 23 A Guy that was there cleaning said they 24 arrived shortly after he did. I think he got there at 25 8:00. 1352 1 Q So that's where the newspaper story comes 2 from that they were there for eight hours, correct? You 3 told somebody? 4 A I guess. They were there until 5:00 or 5 so, too. 6 Q So the Grand Jury has seen a videotape 7 that had a time on it that shows the entry at 12:30 in 8 the afternoon. Do you think the entry was at 12:30? Or 9 do you think it was at 8:30 and the investigators just 10 put 12:30 on their video? 11 A Well, when I got there, it was a little 12 after 12:00, may have been 12:30. They wanted into the 13 safe. And then they wanted into -- it was a tool room. 14 My dad keeps his tools, a bunch of tools in the garage. 15 I asked them if they wanted over on the 16 other side of the garage. They said they had been 17 through that. I asked them the other side of the house. 18 They said, We have already gone through that. So I 19 figured it sounded reasonable that they had been there 20 for a while. 21 Q Okay. So with what you currently 22 understand, at this point -- although I will have several 23 more questions -- you think they got there at 8:30 or at 24 12:30? 25 A I wasn't there. Like I said, I got the 1353 1 call. And a friend of mine was cleaning the carpets. He 2 is the one that said they started arriving, he thought, 3 around 8:30. 4 Q Your friend's name? 5 A Dan Steel. 6 Q Okay. Somewhere down the road, we are 7 going to find out what time the warrant was actually 8 signed. 9 Would it surprise you that the warrant 10 wasn't signed until well after that time? 11 A Wouldn't surprise me. 12 Q Okay. So besides telling people that they 13 were there for eight hours, have you made any other 14 inaccurate statements outside of the courtroom regarding 15 this issue around the search warrant? 16 A I don't believe so. 17 Q Okay. How was the house trashed? 18 A I don't know what you mean by "trashed." 19 The door was off to the office. I don't know where 20 "trashed" came from. 21 Q Okay. Do you know anything about officer 22 safety? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you -- hypothetically, if you went into 25 a big house and only one room was locked and you didn't 1354 1 know if anybody was home, wouldn't you think there would 2 be issues regarding officer safety that would require a 3 complete checking of all rooms in the house? Make sense? 4 A Makes sense. 5 Q That room, in fact, had all the guns. Is 6 that your understanding, most of the guns? 7 A What room? 8 Q The room that the hinges were taken off. 9 A Mmmm... There are some guns in there. 10 Q Okay. So it was never your term of art 11 that the house was trashed? Or was it? 12 A No. 13 Q But you have heard the house was trashed, 14 correct? 15 A I have heard it was gone over. 16 Q Have you heard it was trashed? 17 A No. 18 Q You haven't heard your dad tell everybody 19 it was trashed? 20 A No. 21 Q Earlier, hypothetically, we had a witness 22 testify that the house was trashed. And I was wondering 23 if you have ever heard your dad say his house was trashed? 24 A No. Because I talked to my dad on the car 25 phone that day. My mom was concerned that her crafts and 1355 1 everything were gone through. I told them no. They are, 2 you know, videotaping everything. But nothing was 3 overturned or.... I don't know where trashed -- went 4 through drawers looking for everything; but, to my 5 knowledge, nothing was destroyed. 6 A lot of stuff was taken, you know, 7 unopened mail and titles and stuff. But, uh... 8 Q So a lot of the stuff was taken, titles 9 and mail? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q Most of it out of the KRL office, correct? 12 A Right. 13 Q Some other things were taken, correct? 14 A There was quite a few things, yeah. 15 Q A videotape that you showed Officer Hall 16 where it was located, correct? 17 A Correct. 18 Q A videotape in your father's bedroom 19 drawer? Not videotape. I apologize. Audio tape, little 20 cassette tape? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Okay. What did your dad say when he found 23 out the tape was taken? 24 A The videotape? 25 Q The audio tape. 1356 1 A Didn't know why they would take that. 2 Q Why? 3 A Nothing, like, I don't know. 4 Q You just said videotape. I mean audio 5 tape. I don't know why they would take that? 6 A Yeah. It was in the bedroom. All the gas 7 station files, KRL, everything is in the office. 8 Q Did he tell what you was on that tape? 9 A No. 10 Q Did he laugh about it? 11 A I don't think he knows what's on the 12 tape. I don't think he remembers. 13 Q Okay. I will ask a couple more questions, 14 then I think we will take a break. 15 Hypothetically, earlier this week someone 16 told a story that said your dad laughed when he found out 17 the tape was taken. Does that help refresh your 18 recollection whether or not your dad laughed when he 19 found out the tape was taken? 20 A I didn't hear him laugh. It could be he 21 thought it was -- he has his phone recorder, if that's 22 what the tape was. I am not sure that's what the tape 23 was. 24 Q Did you have a little huddle after your 25 dad came back from halfway to Vegas, family huddle? 1357 1 A No. 2 Q Talk about what was seized? 3 A I showed him the documents I had to sign. 4 Q In front of whom? 5 A I think it was just him, gave him the 6 documents when he showed up. 7 Q Not June? 8 A She -- I am sure she seen 'em. She could 9 have been there. 10 Q Not Luke? 11 A He was there at the house. 12 Q I don't have a transcript in front of me, 13 and I am not supposed to tell you specific answers. But 14 hypothetically, would it make sense that Luke told this 15 Grand Jury you talked about this an hour, plus or minus 16 maybe an hour and a half, about the search warrant and 17 all the issues? 18 A Sounds reasonable. 19 Q Okay. So which is the truth? That it was 20 you and your dad? Or you and your dad and Luke and June 21 talking for an hour or an hour and a half? 22 A Luke was there and his kid, his little 23 girl, and my mom and my dad and I. The documents I 24 showed my dad. I don't know -- I know Luke saw 'em and 25 my mom saw 'em. I don't know if that was -- we talked 1358 1 about it was a traumatic deal coming into the house. We 2 talked about what they went through. And showed him the 3 documents. 4 Q On the tape, did he actually say, I don't 5 know what is on the tape? Did he say, Ha, ha, ha? Did 6 he say, That must be my phone messages? 7 A That's what I am assuming, that it was his 8 phone messages. 9 Q What did he say? 10 A I don't remember. I know, you know, he 11 was maybe surprised that, you know, they went in their 12 room. He was surprised, you know, everything was 13 checked. I don't think he was concerned about the tape. 14 Q So I don't think you could testify to what 15 you think your dad was thinking. You can testify to what 16 your dad specifically told you and/or what you were 17 thinking. 18 So to ask that question one more time: 19 What did your dad say, if you recall, about the tape? 20 A I don't -- I can't recall exact words that 21 were said. 22 Q Did he say anything audibly? Did he speak 23 about the tape at all? 24 A Just that it was taken, along with a lot 25 of other things. 1359 1 Q You read something, tape was taken, and 2 your dad, Robert, back, Tape was taken, and doesn't laugh 3 and doesn't tell you what is on the tape? 4 A I may have asked him what was on the 5 tape. I don't recall him knowing what was on there. 6 Q Okay. Did your dad at any time in your 7 life, including the day of the search warrant, tell you 8 that that was when he surreptitiously went to the City 9 counter and tried to tape City employees? 10 You can take the Fifth at any time. 11 A I don't know. He said he had a 12 recorded -- that was later. And I don't know at this 13 time. I will take the Fifth. 14 Q Your rights for self-incrimination; not 15 your father's rights, correct? 16 Is there something about this testimony, 17 if you know -- and you have to feel comfortable about 18 it -- that could tend to lead toward you incriminating 19 yourself in a crime? 20 A I don't believe so. 21 Q I am going to have to ask you to answer 22 the question. 23 A No. 24 Q No, you are not going to answer it? 25 A No, I don't think there is anything. 1360 1 Q Okay. So therefore, you need to answer 2 the question. I have to play judge at this point. And 3 if you don't think that there is anything that would tend 4 to incriminate you -- how about if I don't ask that, and 5 you can bounce it off an attorney and we will ask it down 6 the road. 7 So without talking about the specific 8 conversation, would it surprise -- would it surprise you 9 that your dad surreptitiously taped a conversation he had 10 at the City counter? 11 A Yes. 12 MR. IREY: Is it time for a break? 13 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 14 Yeah, we will take a ten-minute break. 15 You probably need to review those documents. 16 MR. IREY: I will try. 17 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. What I will do at this 18 time, Mr. Womack, I am going to read you an admonition 19 before we take our ten-minute recess. 20 You are admonished not to reveal to any 21 person, except as directed by the Court, what questions 22 were asked or what responses were given or any other 23 matters concerning the nature or subject of the Grand 24 Jury's investigation that you learned during your 25 appearance before the Grand Jury. 1361 1 This admonition continues unless and until 2 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 3 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 4 punishable as contempt of court. 5 This does not prevent you from discussing 6 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 7 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 8 Grand Jury. 9 And if I could get you to date and sign 10 this admonition. That's word for word what I just read 11 to you. 12 MR. IREY: Just a reminder, Mr. Womack. The 13 admonition, your brother hypothetically had concerns on 14 whether or not he could chat with his wife about that. 15 If you would like, we can make a copy of that for you 16 now, just so that it doesn't precipitate any issues 17 further down the line for you. 18 Additionally, I won't leave the room -- 19 the Grand Jurors will take their break now. I would like 20 to look at those documents while we are on break. I will 21 leave them over on that desk and I will skim through 22 them, if that's okay with you? 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 MR. IREY: Then I need to know from you, do you 25 have a full and complete copy of all of those records? 1362 1 Or not yet? 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think these are copies. 3 MR. IREY: Okay. So then take a break. 4 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. I will read the admonition. 5 MR. IREY: Until what time for Mr. Womack? 6 THE FOREPERSON: Ten minutes. 7 MR. IREY: Twenty after because, by the time you 8 read your admonition. 9 THE FOREPERSON: Twenty after. 10 MR. IREY: Mr. Womack, I need to open the door, 11 have you step outside for just a moment, please. Until 12 twenty after, come on back, please. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Then I will -- when I read this 14 again further today, I will just remind you of this 15 admonishment, instead of just going through it. 16 MR. IREY: One minute, Mr. Foreman. Maybe I will 17 push the break back. We have nine witnesses scheduled 18 this afternoon. Many of them have driven substantial 19 distances. I realize that, earlier this week, we wanted 20 to plow through Luke Womack, which was a great idea. And 21 keeping the witness going is a great idea. 22 I just -- it's up to you. We have 23 witnesses coming from Colfax and Kimberly Moore coming 24 from Dixon. And they are packed in pretty tight. Many 25 of them were difficult to serve with their subpoenas. 1363 1 My suggestion would be to bring him back 2 tomorrow afternoon if we don't finish by 12:30. And I 3 don't think that we are going to be finished by 12:30. 4 So anyway. 5 THE FOREPERSON: Is that fine? 6 GRAND JUROR: That's fine. 7 MR. IREY: I will step out. Go ahead and 8 decide. Then read the admonition. 9 THE FOREPERSON: You want to make it 11:25? 10 MR. IREY: Okay. 11 12 (Whereupon, pages 1364-1365 were reported and transcribed, but are under separate 13 confidential cover.) 14 ---oOo--- 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1366 1 (Recess taken from 11:11 to 11:25 a.m.) 2 THE FOREPERSON: Could we come to order, 3 please. 4 Mr. Womack, I will advise you, you are 5 still under oath. Okay? You may be seated. 6 And we have been able to adjust the 7 microphone. If you were to sit up, I think we might be 8 able to get some audible there. 9 THE WITNESS: One, two, three. 10 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. Much better. 11 Q BY MR. IREY: So I think my last 12 question -- and if you could answer it again, would be, 13 I asked if it would surprise you if your dad was 14 surreptitiously monitoring City employees. 15 And your answer was? 16 A I don't believe so, no. 17 Q It wouldn't surprise you? Or it would 18 surprise you? 19 A Oh, it would surprise me. 20 Q So other than if he did it in September of 21 1998, any other time in your life you remember your dad 22 telling you, I got some great stuff on this tape recorder 23 that I carry around in my pocket? 24 A No. 25 Q If someone came to your dental office and 1367 1 started tape recording your conversation with them 2 without telling you, do you think that would be a problem 3 with you? 4 A No. 5 Q No? 6 Do you know whether it's legal or illegal 7 to surreptitiously tape people? 8 A I am not sure. 9 Q Okay. I have marked your file that you 10 brought in, 505 Sutter. 11 Could you read what Grand Jury Exhibit it 12 is, Mr. Womack, into the record, please. 13 A 71. 14 Q Could you skim through it and see -- why 15 don't you go ahead and count the total number of pages 16 real quick, so that some day, if asked, we have 17 everything you brought to court today. 18 A There is 20. 19 Q Twenty pages. 20 Than we will quickly review your 21 documents. Are there any other documents -- and again, 22 let's see. Are there any other documents you could 23 provide to us today, that you want to provide to us? 24 A I don't believe so. 25 Q Any other photographs? 1368 1 A Photographs? 2 Q Any photographs that you wanted to show 3 us? 4 A No. 5 Q Videotape? 6 A No. 7 Q Audio tape? 8 A No. 9 Q You are not tape recording these questions 10 today, are you? 11 A No. 12 Q And you haven't talked to Luke about his 13 testimony on Monday yet? 14 A No. I haven't seen him. 15 Q Haven't called him on the phone? 16 A No. 17 Q Has your dad said he has spoken to Luke 18 this week? 19 A I think he did. 20 Q You think your dad said he spoke to him? 21 A I'm sorry. Yeah, he saw Luke. 22 Q Okay. But you didn't see your dad this 23 morning? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q Okay. Did you see your dad this morning? 1369 1 A Yes. 2 Q Where? 3 A At my house. 4 Q He came by? 5 A Yes. 6 Q What did you discuss? 7 A That we were coming here. And he wanted 8 to know what time. Just brought the paper by, showed me 9 today's paper. That was about it. 10 Q Okay. Two things. Came by, wanted to see 11 what time. 12 So before today, did your dad know what 13 time you were supposed to testify today? 14 A He thought it was around 8:00, 8:30. 15 Q He just wanted to double-check. He wanted 16 to double-check what time you were coming to the Grand 17 Jury, correct? 18 A Yeah. 19 Q And he wanted to show you today's front 20 page article, correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And that was about it. What other things 23 fit into that -- what about the subset of that's about 24 it? 25 A Just general asked how he was feeling. 1370 1 Been having some headaches. And nothing pertinent. 2 Q Is this process wearing on him, in your 3 opinion? 4 A Mmmm... He has always had headaches. But 5 my mom said that he has been getting more lately. 6 Q Is this process wearing on you? 7 A Mmmm... Done better. 8 Q Okay. So it was you and Nadine. Did your 9 dad and June come by? Or just your dad? 10 A Just my dad. 11 Q And he came by in what car? 12 A I didn't see the car. 13 Q Okay. About what time did he come by? 14 A It was 7:00, 7:15. 15 Q Has your dad at any time in your life told 16 you to tell the District Attorney's Office anything 17 false? 18 A No. 19 Q Has your dad at any time in your life told 20 you to tell the Grand Jurors anything other than the 21 truth? 22 A No. 23 Q Have you heard your dad tell you any time 24 in your life that he has told others not to tell the 25 Grand Jury the whole truth? 1371 1 A No. 2 Q Have you at any time in your life heard 3 your dad tell you or in your presence tell someone else 4 the that he has told people not to tell the District 5 Attorney's Office the truth? 6 A No. 7 Q Okay. So why doesn't it surprise you, if 8 your dad is such a trustful, trustworthy guy, that he 9 hauled the tank away from the gas station? 10 A I don't know if he did. 11 Q Okay. Hypothetically, if your dad hauled 12 the gas tank away from the gas station, why did you 13 testify earlier that that would not surprise you? 14 A Somebody had to do it. 15 Q Who do you think could have done it? 16 A I'm not sure. Whoever has a truck. 17 Q So anybody in Amador County or State of 18 California that has a truck could have hauled the tank 19 away. 20 And then, if you were going to -- we will 21 do the subset thing again. I forget how it goes. Then 22 you get it down to people who were on site. Would they 23 be more likely to have hauled the tank off? 24 A Possibly. 25 Q Let's say you and Nadine bought the tank. 1372 1 How many times have you asked your dad where the tank 2 that you bought went that night? 3 A Couple times maybe. 4 Q And how many different answers has your 5 father given you? 6 A None. He said he didn't know where it 7 went. 8 Q So you have asked your father twice or a 9 couple of times; and each time, he told you he didn't 10 know where it went? 11 A Right. We had that meeting. Same thing 12 he has told me then. 13 Q So you bought the tank on April 30th, 14 1998, although it says KRL. Correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And then on May 2nd, the tank came out the 17 of the ground. Is that your understanding? 18 A Correct. 19 Q You weren't in town, correct? 20 A No. 21 Q You are a very good motorcross rider. Is 22 that what I hear? 23 A No. I ride motorcross. 24 Q That's one of your favorite hobbies? 25 A Right. 1373 1 Q And that of your children? 2 A Right. 3 Q And so do you think that's where you were 4 when the tank came out of the ground? 5 A I was at a motorcross event. 6 Q I will be bouncing around a little bit. 7 It will be a little confusing, but that way -- that's 8 kind of my technique. And if it's confusing, just ask me 9 to re-ask the question and I will try to set up the 10 foundation there. 11 But along those lines, ever since the 12 start of buying the gas station, you and Nadine were 13 going to buy the gas station, correct? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And prior to that, do you remember having 16 conversations with your father that he was going to buy 17 the gas station and operate it as a gas station? 18 A Hmmm... No, not really. 19 I think Dave Mason was trying to sell it 20 as a -- and keep it going as a gas station. But we 21 talked about it and said it wasn't feasible to use it as 22 a gas station. 23 Q And when you say we talked about it, 24 would that be the KRL partners? Or you and Nadine? Or 25 you and your father? How does that work? 1374 1 A It was Nadine and I and my dad. 2 Q Okay. And you sat around. You just 3 chatted one day and said, That would make a better 4 parking lot than a gas station? 5 A Correct. Dave come to us wanting to sell 6 the property. That's how it come up. 7 Q Do you remember your dad saying he was 8 cutting deals with the younger David Mason regarding how 9 cheap he could buy gas? 10 A Not to my knowledge. 11 Q So you and Nadine weren't part of that 12 negotiation for the property you and Nadine were going to 13 buy? 14 A Correct. 15 Q So if that negotiation was occurring, it 16 wasn't for Nadine and Roland, to the best of your 17 knowledge? 18 A Right. 19 Q You didn't say, Dad, run out there and see 20 if you can get me some cheap gas because I don't have 21 enough work here at the dental office. I want to sell 22 gas. 23 A Right. We weren't interested in using it 24 as a gas station. We were mainly concerned for parking. 25 Q Okay. About that gas station, it sat 1375 1 right there outside your windows for the whole time you 2 have operated there, correct? 3 A Right. 4 Q And you have to drive around it to park at 5 your business, correct? 6 A Right. 7 Q When was the last time you saw anybody 8 buying gas there? 9 A Three or four years ago maybe. 10 Q So four years ago was right when the 11 business opened, correct? Your business? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Were they selling gas then? 14 A I believe so. 15 Q Toms Sierra was there? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. For a while after that, they were 18 selling gas, correct? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q And then at some time they stopped selling 21 gas and it kind of closed down and it got real pathetic 22 looking? 23 A Right. 24 Q Then after that, they rented it to a guy 25 named Brito. 1376 1 Do you know Mr. Brito? 2 A No. 3 Q Army Navy surplus kind of guy? 4 A Oh, I remember there was somebody in 5 there. 6 Q So it was a regular gas station, dump, 7 kind of regular gas station, correct? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q That would have been summer of '97 or fall 10 of '97? 11 A That he was in there selling? 12 Q Yeah. 13 A I -- I couldn't tell you. 14 Q What's your best guess? 15 A Yeah. 16 Q Your best guess is summer of '97, fall of 17 '97? 18 A I didn't think it was that recent, but it 19 could have been. 20 Q Okay. So it was either three or four 21 years ago or one year ago, correct? 22 A That they were selling gas? 23 Q Yeah. 24 A I thought it was three years ago or so 25 that they were selling gas. 1377 1 Q Because you read it in the newspaper? 2 A No. Just from seeing cars going in there 3 buying gas. 4 Q Do you remember when Brito was there? 5 Okay. 6 When was the last time you saw anybody 7 selling surplus there? 8 A A couple years ago. 9 Q Did I just take all the papers out of your 10 file? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q Sorry. 13 A Keep 'em. 14 Q So this is the first page you had in the 15 file. And we will just go through them rather quickly. 16 Could you tell us what check number it is. 17 A 3958. 18 Q What account? 19 A Business account. 20 Q And that business account is a Jackson 21 branch? 22 A Yeah, it's Wells Fargo. 23 Q Okay. And the date of the check? 24 A 5/1/98. 25 Q And the next check? Check number? 1378 1 A 4022. Same account. Wells Fargo. 2 Q Made out to whom? 3 A Sherrill Construction. 4 Q For how much? 5 A 2736.30. 6 Q Do you know why you paid this check? 7 A It was on hauling gravel and the work 8 done, demolition of gas station. 9 Q Okay. Do you know why you paid this check 10 out of your business account instead of KRL out of 11 theirs? 12 A I think it was -- let me look back there. 13 Q Sure. 14 A Because it was a later date. We were back 15 by then and he sent us the bill. 16 Q He sent you the bill. What's your name? 17 A Well, it's care of Bob Womack, this says. 18 It was sent to us. 19 Q By whom? Your dad? 20 A Mark may have dropped it off to my dad and 21 my dad gave it to us. I don't remember if it was sent to 22 us. 23 The reason the other ones were paid out of 24 KRL is because we weren't there. And those were, I 25 think, when the construction was going on or the 1379 1 demolition, whatever you want to call it. 2 Q How long were you in Vegas? 3 A Mmmm... Friday through Sunday. 4 Q So Sunday would be the 3rd of May? 5 A Hmmm... 6 Q Correct? 7 A I believe so. 8 Q So the checks on 5/1 and 5/2 and 5/3, they 9 were made out because you were out of town? Is that your 10 testimony? 11 A Usually, that's what -- if I am not 12 around, then they are made out of that. 13 Q Then all the checks on 5/4 and 5/5 and 5/6 14 and 6/20 and nine -- whatever the reward check was, those 15 were paid out of KRL because you were out of town on 16 those dates, too? 17 A No. Probably because there was money in 18 those accounts. 19 Q So is the dentist -- is the dentist's 20 office incorporated? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. Is the dentist's office buying the 23 property? Or is Nadine -- are Nadine and Roland buying 24 the property at 505? 25 A Mmmm... Roland and Nadine. 1380 1 Q And the way the system would work -- if I 2 am right, if you could say, That's close -- is, Roland 3 and Nadine build a building and then they rent it to the 4 dentist's office and the dentist's office pays rent? 5 A I don't understand. 6 Q What are you going to build there? 7 A If we purchase the property? 8 Q Yes. 9 A The main thing was to fix the parking up 10 above. 11 Q Okay. 12 A That was our main concern. 13 Q So you, Roland and Nadine, would just 14 donate that to the dentist's office? Or would they build 15 a dentist's office for that property? 16 A I guess it would be part of the dental 17 office. Dental office is in mine and Nadine's name. 18 Q Okay. So you paid Sherrill with Check 19 4022 2,736 on or about 5/26/98? 20 A Correct. 21 Q Did you hand the check to Sherrill? Or 22 did you put it in the mail? Or do you know? 23 A I don't know. I think probably mail. 24 Q Okay. And then page 4 and 5 are basically 25 the receipts for crushed rock? 1381 1 A Right. 2 Q If that's true. 3 A Looks like hauling and rock. 4 Q Okay. And then Cashier's Check Number 5 0576019773 dated what date? 6 A May 28th, 1998. 7 Q And where did you get that money? 8 A I think that was a line of credit through 9 Wells Fargo. 10 Q And what city? 11 A Jackson. 12 Q So you went in to Wells Fargo and borrowed 13 money against a line of credit, you and Nadine? 14 A I believe so. 15 Q Could it have been KRL-borrowed money? 16 A No. My wife went in. And they had to 17 raise the line of credit for our business. She is the 18 one that withdrew the money. 19 Q And you are making payments on this? 20 A Correct. 21 Q And then you loaned that money to Dave 22 Mason? 23 A Correct. 24 Q And so is Dave Mason paying the money back 25 to you? 1382 1 A Mmmm... If we don't end up with the 2 property. It was an agreement and a note, that, soil and 3 everything tests out okay, then we were to purchase the 4 property. And I guess we will roll this over from a loan 5 into the purchase. 6 Q Call it square? 7 A Right. 8 Q So instead of paying $60,000 for the 9 property, if it comes up clean, you are going to be 10 paying 60,000 plus carrying the money for a year? 11 A Right. 12 Q Okay. Plus -- 13 A If it goes that long. 14 Q Plus KRL is going to bill you for all the 15 demolition? Is that your understanding? 16 A Mmmm... Correct. 17 Q This gets a little -- 18 A What hasn't been paid, you know. What was 19 paid out of KRL, we will get billed. What we have paid 20 so far. 21 Q So you know if KRL is the one that paid 22 the reward for the tank? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q October 20th letter to Larry White about 25 the wall, correct? 1383 1 A Correct. 2 Q $152 bill from Carstensen to you? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Escrow was recorded on May 29th, 1998 5 signed by Kris Lynn? 6 A Correct. 7 Q June 1st letter? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Kris Lynn's card and a copy of a 10 promissory note? 11 A Correct. 12 Q How did that promissory note work? You 13 didn't want to carry -- to use the property as collateral 14 because you might have been -- it might have been 15 contaminated? Or how did it work? 16 A Yeah, I think he put that up and another 17 piece of property he has. 18 Q If you don't want any property until it's 19 clean, why would you take a note against contaminated 20 property when you would never be able to foreclose on it 21 because you would be foreclosing on dirty property? 22 A Well, I think that's why we had him put up 23 his other piece of property as collateral. 24 Q Why, if you had a piece of property that 25 was contaminated but had no source of contamination, no 1384 1 existing potential for increased contamination, would you 2 then take the note against the piece of property that 3 probably has more chemicals on it than any property in 4 Amador County? 5 A Well, at the time, the soil and 6 everything, the City said was clean. My understanding, 7 they were waiting for the State to verify it. Sounded 8 like everything was -- 9 Q Soil where? 10 A The soil that was removed from the 11 property after the demolition of the service station. 12 They came in and did soil tests. 13 Q The City did? 14 A I think so. Somebody from the City, 15 environmentalists. 16 Q The City or the County? 17 A I am not sure. 18 Q Did you ever ask? 19 A No. 20 Q Did you ever hear anyone from the City or 21 the County say that the property was almost clean? 22 A Mmmm... I think I read something. I 23 don't know if that was from Dave Fourt. I think there is 24 a letter somewhere. 25 Q Bob Fourt maybe? 1385 1 A Bob Fourt stating that the soil wasn't 2 contaminated. 3 Q You have seen that letter? 4 A I thought it was in here. 5 Q Take a second. Skim through there. 6 A I know they are supposed to be drilling 7 test holes. I think even today they are supposed to be 8 out there. But that's through the State. 9 Q Hypothetically, if there hasn't been any 10 test holes dug, how would Bob Fourt have been able to 11 write a letter that says the soil is cleaned? 12 A Well, I think it's -- I don't know for 13 sure. Between the County and the City regulations and 14 State regulations, if one has to satisfy the other one. 15 Q Do you have City regulations for your 16 dental office? 17 A Mmmm... My business license is through 18 the City. 19 Q Do you have State regulations for your 20 business? 21 A I am sure there is. 22 Q Okay. So you think there is a letter. 23 And if you could find that letter sometime today or 24 tomorrow, we would be happy to make a copy of it and put 25 it into evidence. 1386 1 A I know I read something, because he -- 2 there was also when the tank -- my understanding, the 3 tank was removed in '90 or '91, the whole tank. It was 4 checked then. And the same thing this time. 5 Q Have you, yourself, since you bought the 6 property or before you bought the property or -- before 7 you started escrow on property, correct? I will ask a 8 different question. 9 You don't currently own the property at 10 505 Sutter, correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Escrow was opened, contamination was 13 found. Escrow was kind of put on hold. 14 A I don't think contamination was ever 15 found. I think that's what they were testing. 16 Q So here is a question. Hypothetically, 17 someone was next to your dad, and the bucket of the 18 backhoe hit the soil and gasoline comes spewing out of 19 the ground and your dad goes, Wow. 20 Your dad ever tell you that part of the 21 story? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you think he might have told you? You 24 were buying the property. 25 A Right. 1387 1 Q Right there on 5/4, 5/5/98. Gas comes out 2 of the ground. Everybody goes Wow, including your dad. 3 And he doesn't tell you about that? 4 A Did it happen? 5 Q Hypothetically. 6 Okay. If it happened, would you have 7 wanted your father to have told you? 8 A I am sure I would have. 9 Q Okay. So have you ever been to the County 10 to look at their file? 11 A No. 12 Q Okay. Basically, this is a setup system 13 for down the road someday. But we, being people working 14 on this file, had a complete copy of Environmental 15 Health's file as of whatever date this was asked for. 16 And we called it 505, which was for 505 Sutter. AEHD, 17 for Amador Environmental Health. Pages 1, and then the 18 binder goes all the way to page 445. Okay? So this 445 19 page was just on 505 Sutter street. 20 Have you ever looked at these 450 pages? 21 A No. 22 Q Have you ever been to the County and asked 23 to look at these? 24 A No. 25 Q Okay. Were you ever present when David 1388 1 Mason III told you or your father that the site was 2 clean? 3 A No. 4 Q Have you ever heard your dad tell the 5 Government or one of his friends that David Mason told 6 him the site was clean? 7 A No. 8 Q Have you ever heard George Ryan tell you 9 that David Mason came to the counter and said the site 10 was clean? 11 A No. 12 Q Okay. How many pieces of property have 13 you bought that you knew there were underground storage 14 tanks on that you didn't ask anybody ahead of time 15 whether or not there was contamination before you started 16 escrow from? 17 A None. 18 Q And in this case, do you wish you would 19 have asked? 20 A If I would have known, you know. It 21 surprises me that, when we got a permit, it's in my name, 22 owner builder, that they -- if it is such a crime to 23 demolish a gas station, why were they issuing a permit to 24 a an owner builder and not somebody that is certified? 25 MR. IREY: I am sorry. Could you reread my 1389 1 question. I think that was non-responsive. 2 (Record read as requested.) 3 THE WITNESS: I guess, you know, I would have 4 asked the City. I figured they would have said 5 something. 6 Q BY MR. IREY: Did you ask anybody? You, 7 Roland Womack? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you walk into the City counter and 10 say, Mr. Rouse, I am going to knock down a building owned 11 by Mr. Mason. Can you give me a permit to knock down Mr. 12 Mason's building? 13 A No. My dad was handling it for us. He 14 went in there and asked them for the permit. 15 Q Did your tad tell him he didn't own the 16 property; that Mason owned the property? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q You don't know what your dad told them, 19 correct? 20 How about if I ask you, has your dad ever 21 told you that, I went in there and said -- I told them it 22 was Dave Mason's property, but I told them I was going to 23 put Roland's name on it and Roland's name on it to knock 24 it down. 25 Did your dad ever tell you that? 1390 1 A I know he had talked to some City 2 officials and -- 3 Q He has told you this? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q So you weren't present when he did this? 6 A No. Showed us -- showed them what ideas 7 we had for the area, the parking lot and what we wanted 8 to do. The permit is in my name. 9 Q Permit what? 10 A Permit is in, I think, my name or mine and 11 Nadine's name. 12 Q The demolition permit? 13 A Yeah. 14 And then we were talking to the architect 15 on putting a parking lot up there, get something drawn 16 up. I think that's what's taken to the City before. And 17 my dad showed 'em some plans. 18 Q A few weeks before the first documents 19 were signed with Mason that said KRL, there had been some 20 negotiations going on between your father and Mr. Mason, 21 correct? 22 A Correct. 23 Q And there Mr. Mason wanted 100 and some 24 change. Your dad want to pay less than 60. Somehow they 25 reached a price of 60. Is that your understanding? 1391 1 A Basically. 2 Q Your dad started, I will take it off your 3 hands with zero? Or about where did your dad start, if 4 he told you? 5 A I think Mason originally wanted 100, 120 6 or something like that. And then he came down to 90. 7 And then I think this was occurring over a year or so. 8 And just -- I think we came down to 70 or something and 9 it was eventually worked out at 60. 10 Q How does that work when you are 11 negotiating? You didn't negotiate actually? 12 A Mmmm... Not personally. 13 Q So your dad would come back and say, Mason 14 said 120. I said no. Mason said 90. I said no. Mason 15 said 70. I said no. Mason said 60. I said yes. 16 Or did your dad have counteroffers in 17 there? 18 A I think he told him originally, It's too 19 much. You are too high. And again, Nadine and I thought 20 it was too much, too. 21 Q So then at some point, he says, Nadine, I 22 think 60 is perfectly reasonable. If you and Roland 23 agree to this, I think it's better that you and Roland 24 buy this gas station than KRL. 25 Or how did that go? 1392 1 A I don't think he was ever really 2 interested in it -- he worked for KRL. My dad goes out 3 and finds deals and investments and let's us know. But 4 this was Nadine and mine. We just thought 60 was a 5 little high. But we figured, we had a few patients 6 saying parking lot would be beneficial and a lot easier. 7 We never figured on opening a service station or anything 8 else. 9 Q So if you could, basically, KRL owns 10 thousands of acres, correct? 11 A Mmmm... 12 Q 2,200 just in Elko? 13 A Yeah, there is a big piece in Nevada. 14 Q Okay. And then most of the property that 15 has been bought in your life has been bought under KRL's 16 name, correct? 17 A Correct. The Nevada property was bought 18 20 years ago. 19 Q Okay. And then you and Nadine buy the 20 contaminated site. Or start to buy it. 21 A Never bought it. What I am gathering, 22 it's not contaminated. You know, until... 23 Q I am just trying to help refresh your 24 recollection. There have been people that testified that 25 they told your dad he had to go to the County and get 1393 1 permits. 2 Has your dad ever told you that? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Your dad has told you that people are 5 saying that he was told to go get permits? 6 A He said something is going around that he 7 went to the County originally and asked for a permit. 8 And they said, No, it's the City. The City is the one 9 that issues the permit. He said he went to the City and 10 they are the one that issued the permit. 11 Q Do you remember that meeting on September 12 2nd, that whole lie detector story of your dad's: I will 13 take a lie detector test and Israel take a lie detector 14 test. And if Israel fails, he has to leave the County 15 forever. 16 You remember that one? 17 A Something like that. 18 Q You remember that story? That's the same 19 time he told us he didn't know where the tank went, 20 right? 21 A Right. 22 Q So why would Mike Israel lie to the Grand 23 Jurors? 24 A You know -- 25 Q If you know? 1394 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Hypothetically. Save his butt? Save his 3 job? 4 A Mmmm... I don't know. He went to the 5 City, got the permit. I think they probably are -- I 6 don't know -- what would they do different if Joe Smith 7 went up there and wanted the same permit for the removal 8 of a service station? 9 You know, it seems to me the City is the 10 one that's -- if it's County, why didn't the City say, 11 You have to go back to the County and get the permit. It 12 wasn't that big a deal then. 13 Q Would it make a difference if the City 14 said you should go to the County? 15 A Yeah. I mean, they issued the permit. If 16 they didn't issue the permit and said we needed to go to 17 the County, we would have done that. 18 Q If the City did tell him to go to the 19 County, that would make a big difference? 20 A And not give him a permit. 21 Q If the City employee told your dad to go 22 deal with the underground storage tanks with the County 23 before the tanks came out, then that would be pretty 24 interesting information, huh? 25 A Correct. 1395 1 Q And if that happened and your father did 2 not go to get permits to pull underground storage tanks 3 that you owned from the day before and pulled those 4 tanks, then that might be a problem for your dad and/or 5 you and Nadine and/or KRL. 6 Does that make some sense? 7 A Yes. But I can't believe they would issue 8 a permit. And why would they still want you to go to the 9 County? 10 Q So it's been seven months. You are going 11 to tell these Grand Jurors today, in seven months, you 12 haven't asked if there are two permits required? 13 A Nothing was said at the time about 14 permits. 15 Q Strike that as non-responsive, please. 16 A If they would have said we needed another 17 permit, why wouldn't we have gone and gotten another 18 permit? 19 Q Same request, please. 20 My question was, in seven months, have you 21 asked anybody on this planet whether or not there was a 22 County permit required? 23 A I think so. 24 Q Whom? 25 A I don't know offhand. I think it's 1396 1 been -- so much is out there and gone on since this has 2 happened. 3 Q Here is a hypothetical for you. 4 Let's say your dad knew where the tank was 5 on Monday, the 4th of May. And let's say hypothetically, 6 on top of that -- this is one of those variable things 7 you do in algebra or whatever -- that your dad knew that 8 soil was hauled off to Mark Sherrill's and to Georgia 9 Pacific. And then let's put on top of that that your dad 10 knew where the debris was illegally dumped that weekend, 11 just to save himself money. 12 If your dad would have told Tom Bamert and 13 Rich Escamilla and the rest of the Board on Tuesday when 14 they had the big hearing, what do you think would have 15 happened in this case? 16 A I don't know. If it's hazardous material, 17 make a difference. 18 Q So do you think finding the stuff right 19 away immediately two days after the tank was pulled 20 illegally would have made a difference than finding the 21 tank through some goofy ad in September? Just what do 22 you think question. 23 A Would you ask it again, please. 24 MR. IREY: Could you reread that, please. 25 (Record read as requested.) 1397 1 THE WITNESS: Probably. 2 Q BY MR. IREY: You are a businessman, 3 correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q Is it cheaper to get a job done in 20 6 hours than 2000 hours? 7 A That's reasonable. 8 Q So costs associated with finding 9 contaminated soil and underground storage tank and debris 10 found in 20 hours would cost the Government less than it 11 did to have to take 2,000 hours to find all this stuff. 12 Would that be reasonable? 13 A Right. 14 Q So let's say we came by your office in 15 July, late June -- I can't recall. And we said, you 16 know, it's really important to find this tank and the 17 debris and the piping. Let's say at that point there had 18 only been 200 hours spent on the case. 19 Would it be cheaper hypothetically to 20 spend 200 hours on a case than 2000 hours on a case? 21 A That sounds reasonable. 22 Q So this permit that your dad got from the 23 City in your name, did you say, Dad, go get a permit to 24 yank the gas station? Or did he just do it? 25 A He just pretty much did it. 1398 1 Q Did he talk to you that he was going to do 2 it that weekend? 3 A Before we left, he discussed that possibly 4 it may be done that weekend. He was talking to Cal-Trans 5 and the City. 6 Q So before you left, he told you he was 7 talking to Cal-Trans and the City? 8 A I think it was, yeah. 9 Q So 4:30, which would have been Thursday, 10 you signed the paperwork. Erroneously. It says KRL. 11 Correct? 12 A All right. 13 Q And then 5/1, you write a check for $5,000 14 to start the escrow title going. Okay? That would be 15 Friday, 5/1. Is that your understanding? 16 A Right. 17 Q Okay. And does that get handed in to 18 George Ryan by you or Nadine, if you know? 19 A It could have been. My dad could have 20 handed it. I am not sure. 21 Q At that point, we are in. Now we have 22 started. Now we can take out the building. So that 23 looks like you were in town on Friday. 24 A I think it was talked about before that. 25 Q But were you in town on Friday. Or do you 1399 1 post-date checks? 2 A No. We didn't leave until Friday night. 3 Q So by that time, the dispensers had 4 already been removed. Is that your understanding? 5 A What dispensers? 6 Q From the underground storage tank island. 7 A I don't believe so. They were just 8 starting to take the lights and stuff down when we left. 9 Q So the lights were taken down on Friday; 10 not on Saturday, as your dad told us at that meeting 11 September 2nd? Do you remember that? When your dad sat 12 there and said, This is what I did. I had breakfast. 13 You remember that part? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And we all sat around breakfast. Remember 16 that part? And I was asking everybody what they wanted. 17 Remember that part? If you don't, you don't. 18 A Something to that effect. 19 Q I asked him about the cash register and 20 the lights and hydraulics and gas tank. And nobody 21 wanted it. Remember that part? 22 A Mmmm... Somebody took it. 23 Q You remember him saying that at breakfast? 24 I asked if people wanted the stuff from the gas station. 25 A He said he had talked to people before 1400 1 they were removing the lights and giving the lights and a 2 few things away before. They were doing that Friday 3 night when I left. 4 Q That's what you remember -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q -- him saying? 7 A I am pretty sure that's what he said, I 8 mean. 9 Q It's a long time ago. It's hard to 10 remember specific sentences. 11 A I remember him going to breakfast the next 12 day and saying there was other stuff there, too. I think 13 they started removing some of the lights and things that 14 Friday night. 15 Q That's what he has told you? 16 A I thought I heard it at the meeting. 17 Q Do you remember we have a tape of the 18 meeting, tape recorder going? 19 A I think so. 20 Q Okay. So you don't remember the 21 specifics -- or maybe you do remember. Do you remember 22 your father said, The night before, we took down the 23 lights? 24 A Started on it. 25 Q You don't remember anything about the 1401 1 dispensers and Tony Hernandez and stuff like that? 2 A Yeah, I think that's taking down the 3 lights, was Tony. 4 Q So at the end of the year when you catch 5 back up, when your dad paid Tony Hernandez cash a couple 6 hundred bucks for this demolition, somehow that cash 7 without any receipts gets billed to you and Nadine and 8 you just pay it? 9 A Probably trust. Trust my dad. 10 Q If 16 out of 17 payments were made in 11 checks, do you have any idea why your dad would be paying 12 Tony Hernandez in cash? 13 A Knowing Tony, he probably wanted cash. 14 Q Tony lived in Larry's house, the one that 15 was sold, correct? 16 A Mmmm... I think he stayed there for a 17 while. 18 Q And Tony, if you know, has spent some time 19 in jail? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q You don't know? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Okay. So May 27th, 1998, straighten out 24 $60,000. Do you see this document? 25 A Right. 1402 1 Q That's David S. and Miriam to Roland E. 2 and Nadine? 3 A Right. 4 Q And this one is not signed on May 27th, 5 correct? 6 A By David and Miriam. 7 Q Or by anybody else? 8 A There is no other name on there. 9 Q Okay. And then this document dated May 10 29th, 1998. That would be 27 days after the tank was 11 pulled? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And that's when it was recorded? 14 A Mmmm... Yeah. 15 Q Okay. And this document, one, two, three, 16 four pages, correct? 17 A Correct. 18 Q And on there, there is a notary that said 19 it was signed on May 29th. Do you see that? 20 A Correct. 21 Q By K. Lynn again? 22 A Right. 23 Q And it has some hard to read, but copies 24 of signatures. Do you see that? 25 A Right. 1403 1 Q Okay. Then the final document in here, 2 three-page document? 3 A Right. 4 Q Addendum to Agreement? 5 A Right. 6 Q And most of the language, except for 7 what's crossed out and written over, is similar to the 8 second document we talked about earlier, correct? 9 A This is the same one you have. 10 Q Same document, except where it said KRL, 11 it now says Roland and Nadine? 12 A Right. 13 Q And down here, it says Roland and Nadine 14 instead of KRL, correct? 15 A Right. 16 Q Up here, handwritten note. Do you 17 recognize the writing? 18 A Looks like my wife's. 19 Q And the note? 20 A "I called Western Land, WL, to correct 21 this it's for Larry and Nadine Womack, not KRL." 22 Q Okay. At the end, it's signed on what 23 date? 24 A The 29th of May, 1998. 25 Q And the buyer signed? 1404 1 A Roland and Nadine Womack. 2 Q By whom? 3 A It wasn't signed. 4 Q So it says, by KRL Partnership, and then 5 it has two lines, Roland E. Womack and Nadine Womack? 6 A Right. 7 Q Under the buyer column? 8 A Right. 9 Q And then there is a seller column? 10 A Right. But it's not by KRL. 11 Q Okay. So this document is done on May 12 28th, said KRL, wasn't by KRL, because George made 13 another mistake similar to the one he made April 30th? 14 A No. I think this is the same document. 15 Q Grand Jury Exhibit 70. There was a 16 original agreement of purchase, pages 1 through 11. 17 Correct? 18 A Right. 19 Q And then there was the addendum. 20 A That's the same thing there. 21 Q And this addendum is three pages with no 22 signatures. 23 A Okay. 24 Q Okay? Yes? 25 A Yes. 1405 1 Q And then your copy that you brought today 2 that you wanted to show the Grand Jury has signatures, 3 five signatures, correct? 4 A Right. 5 Q And what day is it dated? 6 A It's the 29th of May. 7 Q Okay. So if George Ryan testified earlier 8 that, at some point, it was switched from KRL to Roland 9 and Nadine, then that would be true, correct? 10 A Correct. 11 Q But that would just be a paper error on 12 Western Land Title? It was never KRL's intention to buy 13 it, correct? If you know? 14 A When we talked a while ago, originally, 15 KRL -- this is from what you stated a while ago. My dad, 16 KRL, Nadine and I were all looking at the property, and 17 thought that to purchase it. KRL at one point was -- may 18 have been interested in purchasing it. 19 But, mmmm... But then it was agreed on, 20 you know, later date, mmmm, before the demolition and all 21 this, that Nadine and I were going to purchase it and use 22 it as a parking lot. It wasn't feasible to use as 23 anything else, a service station or -- in our mind. 24 But these documents here -- like I said 25 earlier, most everything George does is for KRL. And it 1406 1 was Nadine had called him. And at that point, it was 2 supposed to be in mine and Nadine's name. I guess it was 3 an error or maybe he was assuming it was going to be a 4 KRL purchase. 5 Q So when your dad and -- so the contract -- 6 I can't ask that question. 7 Sometimes George Ryan is your attorney, 8 correct? 9 A For KRL. 10 Q Maybe for this, writing this contract up, 11 if it was for you and Nadine? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q Okay. So had the City told your dad to go 14 to the County, that would have made a difference, 15 correct? 16 A I am not sure what you mean by "a 17 difference." 18 Q If the City told your dad to check with 19 the County before the tanks came out of the ground, then 20 that would make a difference in your mind on how the tank 21 issue has been handled to this point? 22 A Correct. 23 Q Have you ever asked anybody at the City if 24 they told you to go to the County? You, personally, 25 Roland Womack. 1407 1 A No. 2 Q Have you ever heard that the City told 3 your dad to go to the County? 4 A No. 5 Q Remember when we had that meeting on 6 September 2nd and I went through the first three 7 paragraphs of either Mike Israel or Robert Fourt's report 8 word for word with your dad? 9 A Right. 10 Q And then at some point, I said, so now we 11 are up to three people, and none of them have told the 12 truth. Remember that part of the little back and forth 13 your dad and I had? I went through and I read a 14 paragraph. And your dad said, He is a liar. And then I 15 read another paragraph. And he said, That guy is a 16 liar. Then I read another paragraph. Your dad said, 17 That guy is a liar. 18 You remember that? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q Something to that effect? 21 A Yeah. 22 Q So -- 23 A Amazing me, you know, why once the permit 24 issued, you know, if all these requirements need to be 25 met, why wasn't there something explicitly saying? I 1408 1 mean, permit issued for demolition of service station. 2 And then if there had to be a separate one for removal of 3 a tank or pumps or whatever. I mean, even the day of the 4 removal, Bill Wolin, Wolin Construction there, I think 5 they have Haz Mat license. Nothing was said. 6 Q Nothing was said? You weren't there. 7 A Well, this goes through my dad. 8 Q Hypothetically, let's say Billy Wolin did 9 say something to your dad. Would that make a difference? 10 A I am sure it would of. 11 Q But you don't think that happened because 12 your dad told you it didn't happen. Did your dad say, No 13 one on site told me I needed a permit? 14 A Well, I don't think Wolin would have 15 jeopardized his company in removing the tank if he didn't 16 feel it was proper. 17 Q Was it his company? 18 A I don't care what my dad, you know, tells 19 him. 20 Q Did you hire his company? Or did you 21 borrow his excavator? 22 A Mmmm... I am not sure. 23 Q If you know. 24 I am a little confused. So far I have 25 seen a bunch of checks from KRL and one check from Roland 1409 1 Womack for the gas station demo. 2 A Okay. It still applies to Roland. It 3 comes out of my income. 4 Q Okay. So next time you are here or a 5 later a day or however we do this next part of this -- 6 because we are going to stop at 12:30. I have all of the 7 checks. If you could show me any check that paid Wolin 8 and Sons, that would be very helpful. Or if you could go 9 bounce it off somebody and they told you where the check 10 is to Wolin and Sons, we should let the Grand Jurors 11 know. 12 Maybe you really did, while you were in 13 Las Vegas, hire Wolin and Sons to do the work. Could you 14 produce a document that shows you hired or paid Wolin and 15 Sons? 16 A I will try. 17 Q If you have it. 18 You received a paper subpoena earlier this 19 week, correct? A subpoena for records? 20 A Right. 21 Q For KRL? 22 A Mmmm... Yeah. It was documents 23 pertaining to receipts, everything, the gas station, any 24 receipts that KRL or Nadine, I believe. Any receipts and 25 documents. 1410 1 Q And gave you basically five days to turn 2 those in. Have you been looking for those documents? 3 A Mmmm... Some of the stuff. Most of the 4 stuff, you guys have. They took when you went in that 5 office. 6 Q Right. Most. But I guess my question 7 would be, hypothetically, we were in the office, we 8 looked for the paperwork. We looked for documents on 9 Wolin and Sons. We didn't find any documents on Wolin 10 and Sons. 11 Where else would KRL keep records of their 12 dealings with Wolin and Sons besides the office on Ridge 13 Road? 14 A It would be in the office. That's where 15 all the documents are kept. I think I remember him 16 saying that Billy may have been paid cash, too. 17 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 18 No. 31. 19 Do you recognize the writing on this 20 check? 21 A Looks like my dad's writing. 22 Q The date? 23 A 5/3 of '98. 24 Q The person? 25 A Bill Wolin. 1411 1 Q Amount? 2 A 600. 3 Q And who is KRL Partnership again? 4 A Legally, it's us kids. 5 Q So tell me about all the Workmen's 6 Compensation insurance us kids have? Or tell the Grand 7 Jurors. 8 A I don't know. I can't tell you. 9 Q Zip? 10 A I am not sure. 11 Q How many insurance policies does KRL have 12 that you know about that you didn't sign into? 13 A I am not sure. I can't even tell you the 14 Workmen's Comp. I have for the girls at my office. 15 Q Okay. So you don't know if KRL has any 16 Workmen's Comp. insurance? 17 A I am not sure. 18 Q May 26th, 1993 letter from County 19 Environmental Health Department, page 190. 20 A Correct. 21 Q The last sentence of Paragraph 2. Could 22 you read it into the record, please. 23 A Well, this is Jackson Exxon. It says 24 Jackson Exxon station. 25 Q Can you read the whole paragraph. 1412 1 A "This facility has not yet been 2 investigated for groundwater as required nor has" -- 3 Q Please speak up. 4 A I am sorry. 5 Q Maybe I can -- 6 A "This facility has not yet been 7 investigated for groundwater as required nor has an 8 upgraded leak monitoring system been installed. In 9 addition, remediation of the tank removal site has not 10 been completed to the satisfaction of this department. 11 Significant contamination still exists at this site and 12 continued investigation and remediation is required." 13 I don't know what site -- this was back in 1993. 14 Q So remember my 20 hour/2,000 hour 15 hypothetical? 16 A Mm-hmm. 17 Q Yes? 18 A Yes. 19 Q So if somebody would have spent ten 20 minutes checking Environmental Health's files, what do 21 you think they would have learned? 22 A Should have been checked. I don't know. 23 You know, does the City have something like this? It 24 gets back to why were we -- 25 Q It gets back to blame the Government. 1413 1 Right? 2 A Why were we issued -- we were told 3 somebody is -- 4 Q You were not told anything. Isn't that 5 the truth? 6 A From who? The City? 7 Q What were you told from any City employee 8 to this date? 9 A Nothing from the City. 10 Q Okay. What were you told from any County 11 employee to this date? 12 A Nothing. 13 Q Okay. But from your father, you were told 14 what? Because, again, you are supposed to be able to put 15 on all the exculpatory evidence. I am happy to put this 16 on. 17 A My dad was doing this for Nadine and I. 18 Just to be helpful. He does a lot of things for us. He 19 wasn't doing it for KRL or anybody else. He was helping 20 us out. 21 You know, I just don't understand why the 22 City, you know, I was trying to get across, would have 23 let him know that there could be hazardous material and 24 he should have -- you need to have a licensed contractor 25 or -- 1414 1 Q But -- not to cut you off. Go ahead and 2 finish. I am sorry. 3 A We wouldn't have had to go through all 4 this. 5 Q But if the City told your dad to deal with 6 the County, it would be an entirely different story, 7 correct? 8 A I don't know. Depends what the County 9 would have told him. They tell him they issue the same 10 permit the City did, probably end up the same way. We 11 dealt with the City on the remodeling of my office and 12 never had problem with them. 13 Q I have one more document I want to show 14 you before lunch, Mr. Womack. So if we could just all 15 take a deep breath, I think I can find it relatively 16 quickly. 17 Mr. Womack, this is a complete original 18 city file from 505 Sutter Street. It's called the street 19 file. Grand Jury exhibit what? 20 A 28. 21 Q Very first page is what? 22 A County permit application for underground 23 storage tanks, new installation. 24 Q What year? 25 A July 19th, 1988. 1415 1 Q How many hundred times have you heard your 2 dad say there wasn't a County permit in 1988? 3 A I don't know. When we did my office, I 4 think that was in the City. I think that's where the 5 confusion came in. 6 Q You were present at the meeting on 7 September 2nd, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q You were there when your dad tossed the 10 permit across the table, saying, Look. In '88, there was 11 only a City permit. Were you there? 12 A I don't remember that. 13 Q You don't remember that part? 14 A Seeing this '88 permit. 15 Q You remember he was saying -- 16 A Could have. 17 Q Gary Rouse is the same guy in '88 that 18 gave it in '98. Remember that same part of the story? 19 He tells all his friends. You have to have heard this 20 story. 21 A Could have been, yeah. 22 Q You have heard this story? 23 A I guess I did. 24 Q Have you read it in the paper? 25 A Mmmm... May have. Maybe that's... 1416 1 Q My last question before lunch, and then we 2 will talk about scheduling the rest of your testimony: 3 Were you present at that meeting when your 4 dad said, My attorney said, if they want more than 500 5 bucks, tell them to F blank blank blank off. 6 A Who wants more than 500 bucks? 7 Q Your dad was having a chat before I came 8 into the room on September 2nd. He got up on his high 9 horse. And he said: I talked to my attorney. She said 10 if they want more than 500 bucks, tell them to F blank 11 blank blank off. Did you hear that? Did you hear that? 12 A To those words, I don't know. I know he 13 was upset having to go through all of this. We thought 14 we had done everything legal and we weren't intentionally 15 trying to pull anything. 16 Q Did you hear those words? 17 A I can't say exactly I did, no. 18 Q But 15 minutes ago you testified you 19 remember whether the cash register was given away Friday 20 night or Saturday, the conversation. 21 Did you remember that or is that what you 22 are remembering today? 23 A There has been so much going around since 24 that thing, I -- 25 Q Two hours versus 2,000 hours, Mr. Womack. 1417 1 A It may be in there. If you guys have a 2 record, I guess he said that. 3 MR. IREY: I have no further questions prior to 4 lunch. But Mr. Womack, we are probably just beginning. 5 And there are ten people or nine people scheduled after 6 lunch. So if at all possible, tomorrow afternoon all 7 afternoon is available and you are again -- or Friday 8 morning, all morning is available. 9 THE WITNESS: Friday afternoons are... 10 MR. IREY: Friday afternoon. I don't think we 11 are going to be done. Friday afternoon is fine. 12 In fact, why don't we tentatively, if the 13 Grand Jurors make a decision now, we could break at 11:30 14 on Friday -- I guess that makes too long an afternoon. 15 We could make break at noon on Friday and start at 1:00 16 so we have a little longer block of time. It's up to the 17 Foreman and the Grand Jurors. 18 THE FOREPERSON: I see everybody shaking their 19 head. The majority of us are shaking our head yes. So 20 that's fine. 21 MR. IREY: So 1:00 on Friday. Your wife does not 22 need to come at that time as long as she is available, 23 you know, ten minutes, whatever arrangement Mr. Hall 24 made, on call or pager. I don't know what discussions 25 they had. 1418 1 If there are any additional documents you 2 want to bring and, if requested in writing by your 3 attorney or your father's attorney, there might be some 4 documents that you viewed today that at some point were 5 public record, that might be interesting to your father 6 so that any myths that -- I cannot say that. Strike 7 that. 8 THE WITNESS: Can I say something? 9 MR. IREY: Sure. 10 THE WITNESS: You can tell I am kind of 11 uncomfortable being up here. But that's -- this deal 12 with KRL, mmmm, it was set up years ago more as an 13 inheritance, something happened to my parents, instead of 14 going through probate or whatever you go through, things 15 would already be set up for us kids. My dad, he is a lot 16 more knowledgeable on contracts and everything. That's 17 why he helps us out in these deals. 18 You know, I am a dentist. I don't have -- 19 I am a businessman, but my degree is in dentistry. I am 20 not really sure why the KRL deal is getting so pushed. 21 You know, he can explain it a lot better than I can. But 22 you know, he is the one that reads through contracts and 23 goes over things with us and a lot of things none of us 24 kids could catch, you know, that he knows, just from 25 experience and knowledge. 1419 1 You know, I was told Nadine blocked off 2 this morning. We moved patients. That what was the deal 3 with the gas station? How far are you going to be 4 digging in our personal stuff? But, you know, I will 5 come back Friday. But you know, if I have to take the 6 Fifth on some of this, seems it's getting so involved and 7 deep here over, you know. Just the service station 8 basically, what we want to do there. 9 Q BY MR. IREY: Two questions for you. You 10 recently sold a '72 Jaguar, right? 11 A Correct. 12 Q It was listed for $25,000 on insurance, 13 correct? 14 A I have to see the insurance. 15 Q How much did KRL sell the Jaguar for? 16 A I am not sure. 17 Q Here is another question. KRL owned a 18 house, Larry's house, some people call it. Correct? 19 A Larry lived there. 20 Q And who was making payments out of the KRL 21 account? Is that what you believe to be what was 22 occurring? 23 A Right. 24 Q Every month, KRL writes a check to Bank of 25 Amador or Central Valley Bank or a bank to pay the note, 1420 1 correct? 2 A I believe so. 3 Q And then your dad reaches an agreement 4 with some guy from Owens Illinois and he is going to buy 5 the house. Do you understand that? Is that part bounced 6 off of you and Larry and Luke and Kimberly? 7 A I heard that a friend of Luke's -- Luke 8 works out there -- was interested in it. 9 Q Okay. So could you explain why those 10 checks that were coming back to repay KRL for paying 11 Central Sierra Bank were going to Bob Womack? 12 A Checks coming back? 13 Q Yeah, instead of going into KRL's 14 account? 15 A I am not sure what checks you are 16 referring to. 17 Q Just bounce a hypothetical off you. 18 Hypothetically, how much does KRL pay Bob 19 Womack per year to run KRL? 20 A It varies. Depends on -- there has been 21 some years, KRL hasn't done good and hasn't made much. I 22 think it pays its income taxes through the end of the 23 year. It's figured out through the accountant. He keeps 24 track of all the records, like I said before, what 25 expenses I use and all of us use and what he uses. At 1421 1 the end of the year, he goes to the accountant and 2 whatever is his portion, our portion, and pay taxes on. 3 Q So no set salary? 4 A No set salary. 5 Q Just whatever he takes out as a draw? 6 A Basically. As needed. Depends on how 7 things are going for that year. 8 MR. IREY: Mr. Foreman, admonition. 9 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, I am going to read his 10 admonition, then I am going have you initial with a time 11 down for the second admonition. 12 You are admonished not to reveal to any 13 person except as directed by the Court what questions 14 were asked or what responses were given or any other 15 matters concerning the nature or subject of the Grand 16 Jury's investigation that you learned during your 17 appearance before the Grand Jury. 18 This admonition continues unless and until 19 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 20 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 21 punishable as contempt of court. This does not prevent 22 you from discussing the matter with your attorney, if you 23 have an attorney advising you with respect to your 24 appearance before the Grand Jury. 25 Can I get you to initial and put down 1422 1 12:38, please, for the second reading. Just right 2 underneath there. 3 MR. IREY: Thank you, Mr. Womack. 4 If possible, if there are additional 5 documents, if you could get those to me tomorrow 6 afternoon at the D.A.'s Office, then I would be happy to 7 look at them have and have time to review them before. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 MR. IREY: We realize it's not any fun to be a 10 witness in this case, Mr. Womack. 11 So with that said, our job is to make a 12 determination on what crimes were committed and on what 13 days. That's what we are trying to do. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 THE FOREPERSON: Grand Jurors, we are under the 16 same admonishment that I read this morning before we went 17 on our first recess. So let's break for lunch, and back 18 here at 1:30. 19 GRAND JUROR: No. 20 GRAND JUROR: Can't do it. Got to have an hour 21 today. 22 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Well, that's one. We got 23 to get a majority vote here. 24 MR. IREY: I vote 17 of my votes. Carries. 25 GRAND JUROR: We can hear you. 1423 1 THE FOREPERSON: 50 minutes is not enough? 2 GRAND JUROR: No. 3 GRAND JUROR: I would like to address about -- 4 GRAND JUROR: I have a life. 5 GRAND JUROR: I would like to talk about meeting 6 at 9:00, too. We have a lot to go over. And it's -- I 7 think more efficient use of our time if we meet -- I know 8 it's a hardship for certain people to get here earlier, 9 but we have a lot to go. Through, that's my 10 recommendation, at 9:00 on Thursday and Friday, instead 11 of 9:30. 12 THE FOREPERSON: You mean on Friday? 13 GRAND JUROR: Thursday -- the next two days. 14 GRAND JUROR: Why don't we meet 8:30? 15 GRAND JUROR: That's fine with me. 16 GRAND JUROR: What's a half hour? 17 GRAND JUROR: That's fine for you people live 20, 18 10 minutes from here. We live 40, 45 minutes. Sometimes 19 it's longer than that if the roads are bad. We are way 20 the hell up there, 4,000 feet. It's really hard for us 21 to get down here. 22 MR. IREY: Can we go off the record on this part 23 of the discussion? You can make a decision on what time. 24 THE FOREPERSON: We will go off the record. 25 (Luncheon recess taken at 12:40 p.m.) 1424 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 ---oOo--- 3 THE FOREPERSON: Jan, we are back on record. 4 Mr. Irey, we apologize for the delay. It 5 was important. 6 MR. IREY: That's okay. It's going to be lively 7 this afternoon. 8 Are we ready to call the first witness? 9 THE FOREPERSON: We are ready to call the first 10 witness. 11 MR. IREY: Mr. Roy Toms. 12 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Toms, if you could remain 13 standing, please, and raise your right hand. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 THE FOREPERSON: You do solemnly swear that the 16 evidence you shall give in this investigation now pending 17 before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole 18 truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 19 THE WITNESS: I do. 20 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you very much. You may be 21 seated. 22 23 (TIME NOTED: 1:50 P.M.) 24 ---oOo--- 25 1425 1 ROY TOMS 2 Called as a witness herein by the People, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 4 and testified as follows: 5 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. IREY: 8 Q Mr. Toms, I will move a couple things out 9 of your way. 10 Mr. Toms, could you spell your last name 11 for the -- 12 A T-O-M-S. 13 Q Mr. Toms, you recently sold a family 14 business; is that correct? 15 A That's right. September 1st. 16 Q And for how long did you own that 17 business? 18 A Fifty years. 19 Q Okay. And that business was? 20 A Toms Sierra Company, Incorporated. 21 Q Do you know why you were subpoenaed here 22 today? 23 A No. I have gathered a little since I got 24 here. 25 Q Okay. Did you at any time purchase some 1426 1 of the assets of a company called Mason Oil Company? 2 A Yes, I did. 3 Q You recall about how long ago that was? 4 A Four years ago in January. 5 Q So January '94? 6 A Coming this January, it will be four 7 years. 8 Q January '95, correct? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q And you purchased that from whom, if you 11 recall? 12 A Well, there were two things. Dave Junior 13 had a corporation was a couple of C-stores; and Dave 14 Mason Senior had the -- the bulk plant and some assets 15 like that. 16 Q C-store being card locks? 17 A No. C-store like Silver Drive Station and 18 convenience store. 19 Q Okay. And you bought the dirt? Or did 20 you buy other assets? 21 A I bought rolling stock and improvements, 22 equipment, like at card locks. 23 Q Did you buy any of the tanks -- 24 A No. 25 Q -- at any of the sites? 1427 1 A Oh, I would have at the service station, 2 like at Silver Drive and places like that, yes. 3 Q But at 505 Sutter, did you buy dirt or 4 tanks? 5 A No. I rented the thing for three months 6 four years ago. 7 Q So basically, by the end of April '95 -- 8 A I was out. 9 Q -- to the best of your recollection, you 10 were out of it? 11 A Yes, mm-hmm. 12 Q That had to do with issues regarding the 13 employee and the volume of was gas? 14 A Well, it was, you know, small tank where 15 we had to bring it in from the bulk plant with the little 16 trucks. You couldn't compete with people that had truck 17 trailer dumps. 18 Q In making a determination on which Mason 19 properties you purchased, if you recall, and why you 20 didn't purchase other properties, what things did you 21 consider whether or not you were going to buy at 505 22 Jackson Street property? 23 A Well, it just was too small. There was no 24 parking there. The building was too small. I think 25 there was probably one sparking space. It just wasn't 1428 1 suitable for nowadays for service station. 2 Q Before you purchased gas stations, when 3 you were a gas station -- when you were a person who 4 purchased gas stations, did you do any preliminary 5 environmental work before you would enter into these 6 agreements to purchase the land? 7 A No. I knew that on Silver Drive that he 8 had double tanks and it was all up to reg, you know. 9 Q At any time in '95 or subsequent to that, 10 did you discuss any of the contamination issues at 505 11 Sutter with Dave? 12 A No. 13 Q Until I just mentioned it a moment ago, 14 did you know that the site was contaminated from a '91 15 tank failure? 16 A Yes, he had told me that and told me that 17 they had put this 2,000 double-wall tank in there. 18 Q But he had told you -- 19 A He still had to do the clean-up, yes. 20 Q Oh, David Mason told you, being David 21 Sterling Mason III, that there was still clean-up to be 22 done at that site? 23 A Yes, yes. 24 Q Do you remember if that was back -- 25 A That was when we first rented it for a 1429 1 three-month period, yes. 2 Q Okay. At that point, you understood that 3 the tank had been upgraded, but not the lining and 4 dispensers. Is that your understanding? 5 A Yes, uh-huh. 6 Q So a moderate or small amount of work 7 needed to be done to bring it up to the 1998 -- 8 A Yes. We have been doing that for years 9 with our stations. 10 Q About how many stations did you own total 11 when you sold Toms Sierra? 12 A I would say about 80 maybe. 13 Q And it's called Toms, with an "S", Sierra, 14 correct? 15 A Just T-O-M-S. Toms Sierra, Incorporated. 16 Q So you owned about 80 and you upgraded 17 those? 18 A Yes, uh-huh. 19 Q Sometimes when you upgraded gas stations, 20 did you take out permits to upgrade the stations? 21 A Always, yes. 22 Q Every time? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And have you had any conversations over 25 the years with Mr. Mason regarding requirements to 1430 1 upgrade stations and permit requirements, if you recall? 2 A Oh, I imagine we have. You know, he 3 worked for us for those four years. 4 Q Pretty standard knowledge in the industry? 5 A Yes, uh-huh. 6 Q Tanks have to be upgraded, permits have to 7 be acquired? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And then you said you -- I met you 15 10 minutes ago, correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And I asked you if you remember when the 13 last time you sold gasoline at that 505 address, and you 14 thought it was -- 15 A I assumed it was -- 16 Q -- spring of '95? 17 A Yes. Just when we were there, yes. 18 Q But then I mentioned that David Mason had 19 mentioned to us earlier this week that he rented to some 20 guy named Brito or Brito, and that it was an Army Navy 21 surplus store, but he was selling a little bit of gas. 22 You weren't familiar with that? 23 A I wasn't familiar with that, no. 24 Q Where would the deliveries be recorded? 25 A If they were made by us, they would have 1431 1 been made out of the Ione plant. 2 Q Okay. And how -- are cash accounts kept 3 different than sales account? Or are they all just 4 kept? 5 A We have a file for every customer, whether 6 cash or charge. 7 Q And going back how many years? 8 A Well, whatever we are required to keep 9 them. I think most of the records are seven years. 10 Q And so if we asked for the records for 505 11 from Toms Sierra, Inc. -- because the new company kept 12 your name, correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q That was part of the deal, is to keep the 15 name, correct? 16 A Mm-hmm. 17 Q I am sorry. For the court reporter? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Thank you. 20 What record would we actually ask for from 21 Toms Sierra, Inc.? 22 A I would imagine it would be the customer's 23 folder for that year. 24 Q So if we wanted to do a paper subpoena, we 25 would say, Please provide us the customer -- 1432 1 A Folder. 2 Q -- folder for 505 Sutter Street. Or would 3 we have to have the name of the customer? 4 A Well, I think we would have to have the 5 name of the customer, yes. 6 Q Jackson Exxon? Or something different 7 than that? 8 A Whatever this fellow's name was should be 9 how we were billing to him. You said he ran it for a 10 short period. 11 Q It would be actually that individual's 12 name? 13 A Yes. Or business name or whatever. 14 Q Would you be able to cross-reference it 15 by -- 16 A I would imagine, being that small a plant, 17 that Judy in the office would know where to pick it up. 18 Q Is Judy still there, to your knowledge? 19 A Yes, she is still working there. 20 Q Do you remember her last name? 21 A I'm sorry, I don't. She is a very good 22 employee. 23 Q What's the easiest way to find her name? 24 Call Colfax? 25 A Call the Ione plant. She will answer the 1433 1 phone. 2 Q Okay. 3 A But I could get it for you if you want it. 4 Q Okay. Thanks. 5 So that paperwork. And would there be any 6 records when -- if the tanks were ever emptied by Toms 7 Sierra? Let's say that you didn't want the fuel to get 8 old. 9 A If the fuel was billed to the customer and 10 he gave up the place and wanted it returned, we would 11 pump it out and, sure, there would be a credit then for 12 the customer. 13 Q What if he just walked away? Same type of 14 thing? 15 I guess what I am saying is, if there was 16 700 gallons of gas in there taken out of that tank and 17 returned to Toms Sierra, how would that be tracked? 18 A That would be about a $700 bill. So I 19 would imagine somebody would want to have credit for it 20 and return it. Maybe he owed us the money. If we pumped 21 it out, we would credit his account. 22 Q What type of record would be kept? 23 A That would still be in that file, that 24 folder. 25 Q So input -- 1434 1 A We have one folder for every customer's 2 transactions for the year, month by month, you know. 3 Q So each year? 4 A Yes. 5 Q So, for instance, at that address, if I 6 requested for 1995, it would have been the first four 7 months, would it be a file that says Toms Sierra at 505 8 Sutter Street? 9 A Yes. 10 Q All purchases of Toms Sierra? 11 A Our stations were all numbered. I am not 12 familiar what number that one was. 13 Q So if we ask for that paperwork? 14 A Sure. 15 Q We would ask for what? 16 A For that address, fine. 17 Q For those years? 18 A Yeah. 19 Q Early this summer or late this spring in 20 May, an underground storage tank was removed from that 21 facility. Are you aware of that? 22 A No, I wasn't. Until now. 23 Q So at no point had you heard that -- 24 A I knew that David had sold it to some -- I 25 think a dentist that was going to use it for parking or 1435 1 something. I was surprised when I came over and saw the 2 whole thing was gone. 3 Q So today is the first day you have been -- 4 A No. I used to come over once a week to do 5 collecting on Wednesdays. 6 Q And you were surprised to see it gone and 7 you knew David had sold it, correct? 8 A I didn't think someone would buy it. 9 Q Because? 10 A Because it was such a small piece. And 11 what would you have use for it? I didn't think of the 12 dentist for parking. 13 Q Did you know of the contamination at that 14 point? You said you had -- 15 A What's that? 16 Q You said you knew it had been contaminated 17 also, there was clean-up issues. 18 A I told you at the first I knew that from 19 Dave telling me. 20 Q But Dave never told you that all hell 21 broke loose, that the tank was pulled without permits? 22 A No. Said it was in the paper and 23 everything. Nobody ever told me. 24 Q Who said it was in the paper? The guy 25 outside? 1436 1 A John Louie, my dealer, my ex-dealer at Top 2 of the Hill here at Hillcrest. 3 Q And he just told you it was in the paper? 4 A Yeah, big article on it. I just took him 5 to lunch. 6 Q For how long have you known it was illegal 7 to pull underground storage tanks without permits? 8 A I'm sorry? 9 Q For how long, if you recall, do you know 10 that it was illegal to pull underground storage tanks 11 without permits? 12 A Oh, gosh. I think it's way back maybe ten 13 years or more. 14 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 15 Toms at this point. 16 At this point, Mr. Toms, any Member of the 17 Grand Jury can write down a question and then I will ask 18 that of you. Okay? 19 THE WITNESS: Fine. 20 Q BY MR. IREY: Hypothetically, if Dave 21 Mason -- and you called him Junior. He wasn't happy with 22 what I called him -- testified that no reconciliation is 23 kept on incoming and outgoing product at bulk plants, 24 only calibrated meters on the bobtail truck, is that the 25 the true accounting process as you understand it? 1437 1 A Not at Toms Sierra Company. Now, if Ione 2 did it different, I am not aware of it. We control the 3 stock every day. And when we get loads in, we have to 4 balance the sales and check the tanks every day and 5 balance the whole company. We do it every day, every 6 station, every bulk plant. 7 Q But you are not that familiar with what 8 was happening in Ione? 9 A Well, I trust that they were doing it our 10 way. We have taught 'em how. I will go down and check 11 that. 12 Q Those records would be called what? 13 Reconciliation records? 14 A We have reconciliation records and we have 15 our stock controls. 16 Q Because I think, hypothetically -- let me 17 see. I will ask you a different question. 18 Would that be the same type of 19 reconciliation if they were all above-ground bulk tanks? 20 A Yes, mm-hmm. Because we don't want to 21 lose a dollar a gallon. We can't afford to lose product 22 like people think you can. 23 Q Besides losing the product, you might also 24 be having other issues that might be much more expensive 25 than -- 1438 1 A We are very fussy on controls. 2 Q You think there are records somewhere 3 regarding bulk plant reconciliation? 4 A Yes. 5 Q At the beginning of the day, you load up a 6 truck 60,000 gallons, and you drop off 53,000 gallons -- 7 A You are required by law to have a sheet 8 when your truck goes out. You have to balance that with 9 what you sell. So if they stop you, you know what is in 10 the truck or if you have an accident. Every day. 11 Q So then on a certain day, if the tank at 12 505 Sutter were emptied, then it should show there was an 13 input back into the truck? 14 A Absolutely. 15 MR. IREY: Other questions of any other Grand 16 Jurors? 17 Well, Mr. Toms, I know it was a long drive 18 for this short of testimony. But it was very helpful in 19 giving us brackets of time when things occurred and who 20 knew what. 21 So before the Grand Jury Foreman gives you 22 an admonition, I have one final question. 23 Q So David Mason, after the tank came out, 24 never came to you and said, The guy pulled the tank on 25 the weekend. Or I can't believe that guy pulled the tank 1439 1 on the weekend. 2 A He wouldn't have any reason to because, 3 you know, we weren't involved with that location. 4 Q But you saw him monthly or weekly; is that 5 correct? 6 A Yes. But I say he shouldn't have had any 7 reason to discuss it with me. It was his business. 8 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions. 9 The Grand Jury Foreman has an admonition 10 for you, Mr. Toms. 11 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 12 to any person except as directed by the Court what 13 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 14 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 15 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 16 appearance before the Grand Jury. 17 This admonition continues unless and until 18 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 19 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 20 punishable as contempt of Court. 21 This does not prevent you from discussing 22 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 23 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 24 Grand Jury. 25 MR. IREY: Mr. Toms, at this point I always 1440 1 remember one additional question. 2 Q At the Colfax facility now, who would we 3 ask to speak to regarding asking for these reconciliation 4 records or something like that? 5 A Jim Engy is the one that is in charge 6 there. 7 Q I-N-G-Y? 8 A E-N-G-Y. Engy. 9 Q Okay. Thank you. 10 A So you don't want me to go looking for 11 these records? I will stay out of this. 12 MR. IREY: Mr. Toms, the Grand Jury can instruct 13 me to request those records. So hypothetically, it might 14 save you some time down the road if something you are 15 thinking about today, you can start to gather the records 16 and, if necessary, we will send you a subpoena duces 17 tecum and have your custodian of records certify those 18 are true and accurate. And that would be great. Thank 19 you. 20 THE FOREPERSON: You are free to go. 21 THE WITNESS: Thank you for your time. 22 MR. IREY: Nick Toms. 23 THE FOREPERSON: Right up here, Mr. Toms. If you 24 could remain standing and raise your right hand. 25 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 1441 1 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 2 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 3 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 4 THE WITNESS: I do. 5 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be 6 seated. 7 (TIME NOTED: 2:08 P.M.) 8 ---oOo--- 9 NICK TOMS 10 Called as a witness herein by the People, 11 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 12 and testified as follows: 13 14 EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. IREY: 16 Q Mr. Toms, were you recently a corporate 17 officer of a business that was sold? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And that business? 20 A Toms Sierra. 21 Q And before you sold that business, 22 approximately how many gas stations did you and your 23 corporation own and/or operate? 24 A I think it was 28 or 30. 25 Q Okay. 1442 1 A Operated. I don't know how many we owned. 2 Q I said gas stations. Bulk plants, card 3 locks, additional things like that? 4 A Yeah. I am really not sure. I mean, 5 there was -- there were 400 employees. 6 Q Okay. And you sold it September 1st; is 7 that correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q If you could speak up so the person all 10 the way in the back could hear, I would appreciate it. 11 Thank you. 12 Do you know why you received your subpoena 13 today? 14 A Mmmm... I am not really sure. I thought 15 that -- I have had several different versions. 16 Q Okay. You heard a version out here in the 17 hallway while you were waiting, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q About witch hunt, things like that? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q Did the guy stop talking while your father 22 was in here? Or did he keep going the whole time? 23 A No. He stopped. 24 Q Did he give you his story of why you are 25 here? 1443 1 A The only difference was that the fellow 2 had a permit or he didn't have a permit, one or the 3 other. 4 Q Okay. 5 A That was the only difference in the story 6 that I -- that I heard. 7 Q Okay. Do you know Mr. David Sterling 8 Mason III? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Was he an employee of Toms Sierra? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And before he was an employee of Toms 13 Sierra, was he a competitor of Toms Sierra? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And in late '94 and early '95, Toms Sierra 16 purchased some of Mr. Mason's assets, if you know? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And is that because Mr. Mason owed Toms 19 Sierra more than a million dollars? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Do you remember about how much Mr. Mason 22 owed Toms Sierra? 23 A I think it was about a million four. 24 Q Okay. And there was assets traded to 25 reduce the he debt. Is that essentially what happened? 1444 1 A Yes. 2 Q And did it wipe out the debt or just 3 reduce the debt? 4 A Mmmm... It wiped out the debt, the way we 5 figured it out. 6 Q Okay. Then at that time, employees of 7 Mason Oil became employees of Toms Sierra? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And that's who wrote their checks? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So David Mason III received a Toms Sierra 12 check? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And at some point, you were leasing the 15 505 Sutter Street site. Is that your understanding? 16 A Yes. We leased everything, except for the 17 two service stations that we bought. 18 Q Okay. But you only leased that for a very 19 short period of time? 20 A Right. 21 Q And there were problems with an employee. 22 Is that the big reason? Or were there other reasons? 23 A Mmmm... The volume wasn't -- there were 24 several problems. We had to take on our own customers if 25 we were going to increase the volume. The storage was 1445 1 small, so we had to double handle the product, where we 2 didn't have to at places we were already selling product. 3 Q Difference between a three or four or 4 5,000 gallon tank and a thousand gallon tank? 5 A Right. All of the people that we 6 supplied, like Sierra Trading Post and people like that, 7 had large storage that you could deliver with only 8 handling the product once. Where we would have to handle 9 it twice and, to increase the business, we would have had 10 to drop the price. And that would made our other 11 customers unhappy. You know, it was just a no win deal. 12 Q Okay. So spring of '95, closed it down as 13 a Toms Sierra gas station? 14 A Right. 15 Q Was there ever a sign out that said Toms 16 Sierra Gas Station? Or the Mason Oil sign was pretty 17 much the sign? 18 A I don't think we ever branded the station 19 our brand, which is Sierra Super Stop. 20 Q Okay. And then it closed. 21 And are you familiar with the gas station 22 after you stopped operating it as Toms Sierra? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you have any conversations with David 25 Mason May of this year related to an underground storage 1446 1 tank removal? 2 A I'm not sure what month. 3 Q Okay. How about, I can ask two questions. 4 Prior to an underground storage tank 5 removal from that site in 1998, did you have any 6 discussions with David Mason or his son David Mason 7 regarding whether or not he was planning on selling that 8 gas station? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. Did those go on for a period of 11 several months? Or -- 12 A He had it sold several times, he said. 13 You know, he had a sign. And he had several parties 14 interested in buying it, he said. And because he told us 15 he had some creditors that were -- you know, he needed to 16 sell it to get these people -- to -- 17 Q He had a debt, and the lien was on his 18 personal residence. Is that one of the reasons? 19 A Right, yes. 20 Q He needed to get it paid off? 21 A Right. He was going to lose his house or 22 sell the station or borrow some money or whatever. 23 Q Did he try to borrow money from Toms 24 Sierra? 25 A No. He had already -- no. 1447 1 Q Exhausted those remedies? 2 A Yeah. 3 Q And so then in May or late April '98, did 4 he tell you, I finally got the station sold. Now I can 5 pay my note? 6 A May of 1988? 7 Q '98. I apologize. 8 A '98. Yes, he sold the station. I wasn't 9 sure how much he sold it for. He said he sold it to the 10 dentist for a parking lot. 11 Q Was he happy that the lien would come off 12 his house? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. And then did you have any 15 conversation related to an underground storage tank 16 getting pulled with or without permits? 17 A I thought that the -- that the problem was 18 that the tank had been pulled without a permit. 19 Q Okay. 20 A That somebody had pumped the tank without 21 a permit. And that I know is a problem. 22 Q Is that what you were told by David Mason 23 or someone else? 24 A David Mason. That was what he thought 25 had -- had happened. Now, out in the hallway, that's not 1448 1 what happened. 2 Q That guy will be in next. 3 A Okay. 4 Q But -- 5 A I just thought I would tell you. 6 Q But you know you need permits to pull 7 underground storage tanks? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q Pretty much every tank your business has 10 pulled, you got permits for? 11 A Yes. 12 Q For a period of numerous years? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Regulators on site when tanks come out of 15 the ground? 16 A I was the president of the company. 17 Q Samples get taken? 18 A I go to jail. 19 Q You understood that? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q Do you think David Mason understood that? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q Based on conversations you had in the last 24 several years? Or just that everybody in the industry 25 knows what you are facing if you yank tanks on weekends? 1449 1 A No. No, no. I just know that, when Dad 2 made me the president of the company, he wasn't the 3 president, I found out that the president goes to jail. 4 What a nice thing, right? So if somebody -- 5 Q Ten more hours a week, plus. 6 A If one of the 400 employees does something 7 wrong, they come and get me. 8 Q You made sure your employees knew not to 9 do something wrong? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q David Mason actually had training in how 12 not to do things wrong? 13 A Right. I understood that Dave Mason 14 didn't do this, what I understood. He didn't pull the 15 tank. Did he? 16 Q I can't answer your question. But I can 17 maybe help you by asking a question differently. 18 If David Mason needed the money and David 19 Mason got a bid to pull the tank legally and then he sold 20 the business without telling the person that he had a bid 21 and without telling the person that it was going to cost 22 him 5,500 to pull the tank, do you think that might have 23 been failure to disclose a material defect? 24 A Yeah. He should have told them whatever 25 it was going to cost. 1450 1 Q And whatever permits were required? 2 A Right. 3 Q And so if, on April 13th, he got a bid to 4 pull the tanks by Tallia, and then by April 30th, he 5 signed a deal that said, You take the property and deal 6 with the tanks, with generic language such as, "Buyer and 7 seller agree that buyer at his own cost may remove 8 existing building and do all acts necessary to remove the 9 underground tanks and perform all testing necessary for 10 environmental purposes." 11 Pretty generic paragraph? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did you know that that site was 14 contaminated from chats with Mr. Mason in the past? 15 A I didn't, but Dad said that he had had 16 chats with him. 17 Q Would it surprise you if we have heard 18 testimony that Mr. Mason told a title company that the 19 property had no problems if he, indeed, knew it was 20 contaminated? 21 A Mmmm... Would it surprise me? 22 Q Yeah. 23 A Mmmm... No. 24 Q Do you know what specific training your 25 business gave its employees related to complying with 1451 1 underground storage tank rules and regulations? 2 A We -- we dealt with the properties that we 3 owned. 4 Q Okay. 5 A And our employees knew what had to be done 6 on anything that we owned or anything that we worked on. 7 Q So there would have been a overlap 8 because, if your employees were David Mason and David 9 Mason, and they worked on some of the properties you 10 owned, then it would have filtered through their brains, 11 so that they might know that for other stations they 12 owned or operated? 13 A Well, we wouldn't have had David Mason 14 work on our properties, as far as tanks or that kind of 15 stuff. 16 Q Okay. 17 A Because we had to have our fellows have 18 underground -- what is it? 40 or 80-hour course to be 19 able to work on those things? 20 Q So they weren't actually physically doing 21 the contracting part of it? 22 A No. We had our own employees that did 23 that. 24 Q Okay. Hypothetically, your father 25 testified that most of the paperwork should be at the 1452 1 Ione plant. Is that probably accurate? 2 A Right. 3 Q And it's by last name of purchaser of 4 product? 5 A Right. 6 Q And each year has a file? 7 A Right. 8 Q So we wouldn't be able to say, 505 Sutter 9 street for eight years. We would have to know the name 10 of the operator? 11 A Yes. 12 Q If we did not know the name of the 13 operator, would there be a way for the new Toms Sierra 14 people to pull the files for 505 Sutter Street by 15 address, if you know? 16 A I don't think so. We changed computers to 17 try to avoid the Y-2000. One of the reasons I sold. The 18 the new computer is a disaster. 19 But they -- they should have, you know, 20 the hand tags that they did at that time. 21 Q And that would include -- 22 A On file somewhere. 23 Q That would include if they pull product 24 out of the tanks? 25 A Right. That would -- yeah, they would 1453 1 have to make a stock transfer of that product back into 2 one of the other facilities that would show, you know, so 3 that the service would come out right. 4 If you put 500 gallons of product into a 5 tank, it's going to show it's 500 gallons over. Then you 6 are going pass on to the County. The County is going to 7 say, How did that happen? Right. 8 Q They might very well do that if they knew, 9 yes. 10 A Right. Well, they are pretty good at 11 that. 12 Q Okay. If you are losing gas, then it's 13 either bad math or gasoline leaving the -- 14 A They make you use a separate company that 15 checks your figures and then passes those figures on to 16 the County. And if they are one way or the other, they 17 are there. I mean, if they are not within the tolerances 18 that are given by the State or the County, then they 19 are there to check and see what's wrong. 20 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions of 21 Mr. Toms. 22 At this time, Mr. Toms, I didn't have a 23 chance to meet with you before. I appreciate your coming 24 over from Colfax. Any Member of the Grand Jury can write 25 down a question. I read it into the record. If you 1454 1 could answer that, it would be great. 2 After they are done with their questions, 3 then the Grand Jury Foreman has what's called an 4 admonition for you. I realize it was a long drive, but I 5 appreciate it. It was helpful. 6 Q What kind of person do you feel Dave Mason 7 III is? 8 A He ran for what? State Assembly? 9 Q I don't know. 10 A Yeah, I think he ran against Garamendi. 11 Almost won. In this area, he has been the treasurer of 12 the Rotary Club down there for years. And, you know, he 13 has been a friend of my dad's for years and years. I 14 really haven't -- I really don't have that personal of a 15 relationship with him to say that he is a good person or 16 a bad person. 17 Q But he ran into some serious financial 18 difficulties with your business before you bought his 19 business, correct? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q Is that based on mismanagement, in your 22 opinion? Or other issues, if you know? 23 A In my opinion, that was mismanagement. 24 Mistakes that he made that he didn't listen. 25 Q Have you ever had any problems with him on 1455 1 a personal basis? 2 A No. 3 Q Have you ever had any problems with him on 4 a business basis? 5 A Just that he couldn't pay that bill. 6 MR. IREY: Okay. Any further questions? 7 The Grand Jury Foreman has an admonition 8 for you, Mr. Toms. 9 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 10 to any person, except as directed by the Court, what 11 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 12 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 13 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 14 appearance before the Grand Jury. 15 This admonition continues unless and until 16 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 17 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 18 punishable as contempt of Court. 19 This does not prevent you from discussing 20 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 21 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 22 Grand Jury. 23 And if I could get you to date and sign 24 what I just read to you right there? 25 THE WITNESS: Is this the 18th? 1456 1 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, sir. 2 Thank you, Mr. Toms. You are free to go. 3 MR. IREY: Thank you, Mr. Toms. 4 Kimberly Moore. 5 THE FOREPERSON: You do solemnly swear that the 6 evidence you shall give in this investigation now pending 7 before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole 8 truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 10 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be 11 seated. 12 13 (TIME NOTED: 2:27 P.M.) 14 ---oOo--- 15 KIMBERLY MOORE 16 Called as a witness herein by the People, 17 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 18 and testified as follows: 19 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. IREY: 22 Q I have to ask this, Ms. Moore. Could you 23 spell your last name for the court reporter, please. 24 A M-O-O-R-E. 25 Q Ms. Moore, who is your father? 1457 1 A Robert Womack. 2 Q And your mother? 3 A June Womack. 4 Q And we haven't had a chance to speak 5 before right now, correct? 6 A No. I don't know you. 7 Q My name is David Irey. These are the 8 Members of the Grand Jury. And the process essentially 9 is, I will ask questions for a while, maybe show you some 10 documents. At that point, then the Members of the Grand 11 Jury can write down questions and ask them of you, if 12 they choose. 13 Before we do that, in an overabundance of 14 caution, could you go ahead and read the other 15 admonition, please. 16 THE FOREPERSON: Sure. 17 You are advised under the Fifth amendment 18 to the Constitution of the United States and also under 19 Article 1 of the California Constitution that you have a 20 privilege against self-incrimination. That is to say, 21 you do not have to answer any questions that may tend to 22 incriminate you or subject you to punishment for a 23 crime. And you can refuse to answer any such questions 24 by stating that the answer may tend to incriminate you. 25 Do you understand? 1458 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 3 Q BY MR. IREY: Ms. Moore, is that your 4 husband, Michael Moore, that you came with? 5 A Yeah, he brought me. 6 Q And if, when possible -- I often say 7 uh-huh or huh-uh, but the court reporter is writing down 8 every word. So if you could -- 9 A I understand that. 10 Q Thanks. 11 The other gentleman outside -- had you met 12 him before? 13 A The one? Which one? There is three of 14 'em. No, none of. 15 Q Mr. Moore? 16 A No. I just know my husband. 17 They said their names. I couldn't tell 18 you what their names were. 19 Q Okay. Do you know why you were subpoenaed 20 here today? 21 A Mmmm... Not -- I'm sorry. Not really. 22 Maybe because I am related to my father and mother and 23 brothers. I don't know. 24 Q Well, I am going to ask you some questions 25 regarding underground storage tank and KRL, if that's 1459 1 okay. 2 A Sure. 3 Q Tell us about KRL. Because I don't 4 understand KRL at all. 5 A What do you want to know? 6 Q Everything. I don't want to know price 7 paid for each car, but I want to know pretty much 8 everything. 9 A Well, it's a partnership between my 10 brothers and myself. And I haven't really been dealing 11 with it for the last three or four years. I live in 12 Dixon and am raising a family. 13 Q Okay. And when you say it's a partnership 14 between you and your brothers, how does that partnership 15 work? 16 A Well, it was started as a corporation 17 between us in the early '80s. And somewhere along the 18 line, on advice of our attorney, it was changed over into 19 a partnership, which I couldn't tell you when that was. 20 It's been quite a few years ago. 21 Q Okay. And who started that corporation? 22 A Myself and my brothers. 23 Q When your brothers were not even ten years 24 old, this corporation started? 25 A Well, I can't remember their ages. One 1460 1 was in school, college, going to college. And the other 2 one -- I don't remember how old he was. 3 Q Are you the oldest child? 4 A Yes, I am. 5 Q And then Roland, and Luke and Larry are 6 about the same age? 7 A Yes. 8 Q So at some point, it became a partnership? 9 A Yes, yes. 10 Q And each of the four children owned the 11 partnership equally? 12 A Uh-huh. 13 Q Okay. And when property is purchased, who 14 makes those decisions? 15 A Mmmm... Between myself and my brothers. 16 Usually, it's with my brother Roland. But if, you know, 17 anybody else needs to know anything, they are around and 18 they can -- we can let 'em know. 19 Q So usually you and Roland make the 20 decisions? 21 A Well, we present it to our younger 22 brothers. And if they think -- 23 Q They tell you how wise you are? 24 A No, never. 25 It's all divided equally. We all have say 1461 1 on it. I just haven't dealt with it. I have been 2 letting my brothers deal with it because I am not up here 3 and it's not convenient for me to run up and sign things. 4 Q Okay. So when you guys decided to 5 purchase a Jaguar, the four siblings get together and -- 6 A If it's needed. I mean, I am in contact 7 with my brother Roland off and on mostly, more so than my 8 other two brothers. It's just I trust him. It's not a 9 big deal. If he thinks it's a good deal and my father 10 thinks it's a good deal, we go with that. I just don't 11 know -- I just have not -- I have been too busy down 12 raising a family and taking care of my stuff down in 13 Dixon. 14 Q There is a business down there, too, 15 right? 16 A My husband's. 17 Q Your husband's? 18 A Yes, family business. 19 Q Heavy equipment or something like that? 20 A Moore Tractor. 21 Q Is that farming equipment or excavation 22 type of equipment or both? Do you know? 23 A It's both, I think. I am not really sure. 24 Q And when was the last time you spoke with 25 Roland regarding this underground storage tank issue? 1462 1 A My brother Roland? 2 Q Yeah. 3 A Mmmm... I -- I couldn't tell you. I 4 can't remember. I don't know if I specifically ever did 5 talk to him about that. 6 Q And your father? 7 A And my father, yeah. I have just this 8 afternoon. 9 Q Before you came over? 10 A Uh-huh. I had to bring -- I have a 11 daughter, and my mother is watching her. She is out of 12 school. So we had lunch with my father, yes. He had an 13 article he wanted to show. Because I haven't been -- I 14 am not up here and I was a little caught off guard when I 15 was subpoenaed, so I... 16 Q Trying to figure out what it was about? 17 A Yeah, yeah. 18 Q And your father showed you this article? 19 A Yeah. It was in one of your local 20 newspapers. And then the man out there was showing me 21 some articles. 22 Q Articles that he wrote, things like that? 23 A I don't -- I don't know. Different 24 people. I don't know each. He was showing myself and my 25 husband. 1463 1 Q About witch hunt, things like that? 2 A Yeah, I heard that come up, uh-huh. 3 Q So does Moore Tractor have underground 4 storage tanks? 5 A Oh, I wouldn't know. I don't know. 6 Q If you know, has KRL purchased property 7 that had underground storage tanks on it before? 8 A You know, I don't know. I wouldn't know 9 that at this time. 10 Q Prior to your dad moving to Sutter Creek, 11 what business was he in? 12 A Mmmm... He was an investor over the 13 years. 14 Q Something about a cement company or 15 something? 16 A Oh, way back when? 17 Q Sure. 18 A Yeah. I think when I was in school. I 19 didn't have much to do with that or anything. 20 Q He was in the construction business? 21 A I am not sure. I am not sure. He has been 22 a lot of things, I think. 23 Q Travel agent, stuff like that? 24 A Yeah, he has been a lot of things. 25 Q Okay. So when was the last time you 1464 1 signed a KRL check? 2 A Oh, I haven't -- I don't -- probably three 3 or four years ago. 4 Q Okay. 5 A It's just too hard for me. Living down in 6 Dixon, I am an hour and a half from Jackson. It's much 7 easier for my brothers to do it. 8 Q Okay. So when you signed over your share 9 to Roland, it wasn't for real; it was just on paper? 10 A Mmmm... I don't know. 11 Q This is Grand Jury Exhibit 59. Do you 12 recognize that document? 13 A Well, I recognize my signature. 14 Q And does it look like your writing for the 15 date also? 16 A Yeah, it does. 17 Q Okay. Maybe you could read the document, 18 and then I will ask you a couple questions about it, 19 please. 20 A Okay. I have read it. 21 Q Okay. So you signed the property over in 22 1994 to Roland? 23 A Uh-huh, yeah. 24 Q And Roland today testified that, on paper, 25 half of it was in his name, hypothetically, and half of 1465 1 it was in Larry's name. 2 A Mm-hmm. My brother Larry. 3 Q I heard at lunch today that Larry just got 4 evicted because his check bounced -- 5 A I wouldn't know. 6 Q -- at the apartment. Does that surprise 7 you? 8 A No. I just don't know that. 9 Q But would that surprise you? 10 A I don't keep abreast of what he is doing 11 in his personal life. 12 Q Would that surprise you? 13 A Surprise? No. 14 Q So if KRL last week sold property for 15 $700,000, and Larry owns half of it, how come his rent 16 check for $600 would bounce? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q Who -- 19 A I couldn't answer that. 20 Q Who owns KRL? 21 A Myself and my brothers. 22 Q Really? 23 A Yes. 24 Q When was the last time you drove one of 25 the $300,000 in cars that you own? 1466 1 A I don't know. I couldn't give you a 2 specific date. 3 Q This year? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q Did you take it for a couple weeks? 6 A No, no. 7 Q Okay. This document, Grand Jury Exhibit 8 58, is Luke signing his share over to Roland. Is that 9 similar to the document when you signed your share over 10 to Roland? 11 A It's a similar document, yes. I wasn't 12 there on this. I don't know. 13 Q Do you recognize Luke's signature? 14 A Mmmm... Yeah. As far as I know are it, 15 yeah. 16 Q And Roland's? 17 A Yeah, it's the same as that one. 18 Q At the bottom of 59, that's your husband's 19 signature? 20 A Uh-huh, yeah. 21 Q So Roland has a quarter, Roland has two 22 quarters, Roland has three quarters, if this is -- '94 23 were the last documents. Does that make some sense? 24 A Yeah, I guess that's what it would say, 25 yeah. 1467 1 Q Here is one of the things that is 2 confusing to me. Roland said hypothetically that 3 everybody owns a quarter; it's just Larry and him look 4 like they each own half. 5 Does that make sense to you? 6 A On my part, it's easier for them to take 7 care of, you know, the everyday dealings and the signings 8 of everything that comes up. It's an inconvenience for 9 me to have to run up every time something goes on. You 10 know, we are a close family and I trust their decision. 11 Q Okay. So that's why you signed yours over 12 to Roland? 13 A Mmmm... I can't remember exactly why. I 14 am sure it had something to do with being inconvenienced 15 at that time of just -- you know, everybody lives up 16 here. I am down there. And it proves to be difficult to 17 have to run up, you know, to a title company or sign 18 papers. 19 Q The second part of that was, Luke was in 20 here and he testified that he was kind of forced out of 21 the family because they hated his pregnant girlfriend. 22 A I don't know about that at all. 23 Q Did you have any conversations with June 24 or Robert about that? 25 A No. 1468 1 Q About, We don't like Luke's girlfriend? 2 A I don't know what girlfriend you are 3 talking about. 4 Q I think it's his wife now. 5 A No, I don't. 6 Q You don't remember that big falling out? 7 A No. 8 Q Nothing at all rings a bell? 9 A No, no. Not at all. 10 Q This one, Grand jury Exhibit 60, looks 11 like Larry is signing over his share to Nadine. How come 12 they didn't sign it over to Michael? 13 A Well, probably for the fact that he is 14 down in Fairfield running the business and she is up here 15 with my brother and the rest of my family. 16 Q Okay. So we have Larry, Luke, Roland, 17 Kimberly. But KRL is owned by Roland, Roland, Roland and 18 Nadine. 19 Is that the way you understand KRL as of 20 today? 21 A Well, it might be on paper. But I don't 22 worry about anything with my brother running the 23 day-to-day business of KRL. I have no worries about 24 that. 25 Q But your brother testified just before 1469 1 lunch hypothetically that your dad runs the day-to-day 2 business of KRL. 3 A Well, he definitely is in there with -- we 4 don't -- you know, his advice is precious to us. He has 5 our best interests in anything that we do. 6 Q Save money and make money? Or to do 7 things legally? 8 A Oh, always, yeah, to do things legally, 9 absolutely. 10 Q Always? 11 A As far as I am concerned, yes. 12 Q Because he has told you that he does 13 things legally? Or because you know him to do things 14 legally? 15 A Well, he doesn't have to tell me, yes, I 16 just know. I wouldn't be involved in anything illegal. 17 Q Does KRL own any cars they purchased in 18 Oregon and brought to California? 19 A You know, I don't know. I don't know. 20 Q So at what point -- how many tens of 21 thousands of dollars have to be spent before Kimberly is 22 contacted by Roland or Robert? 23 A Well, I am sure my brother has contacted 24 me over the years. I just don't recall to tell you the 25 specifics. I couldn't tell you today. I don't know 1470 1 about that information. 2 Q Okay. I have been asking pretty generic 3 questions. 4 But if you could give a five-minute 5 narrative, maybe that would clear up some questions I 6 might ask. How does KRL work? Who gets checks at the 7 end of the year? Who pays taxes? 8 A Now, I wouldn't know that. I couldn't 9 tell you. Years ago, that's why we had the accountant. 10 I am sorry. I relied on the accountant to handle all of 11 that. I can't recall on a day-to-day basis years ago. 12 That was over, you know, 15 years ago when we first 13 started it. I have been not involved in it on a 14 day-to-day basis for three or four years. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I just don't have any knowledge of that. 17 Q Let's say you bought 1,800 acres in Amador 18 County and just sold it in the last eight weeks. Were 19 you consulted regarding that? 20 A Mmmm... I have heard something about it 21 through my brother. But otherwise, I don't -- like I 22 told you, you know, he doesn't feel he has to call me on 23 anything and everything because I trust him. My family 24 has my best interests. I don't worry about that at all. 25 Q Okay. But currently today, other than 1471 1 your trust in your brother, you don't on paper have any 2 interest in KRL? 3 A I signed it over to my brother, correct. 4 Q In '94 because of convenience? 5 A I -- I'm thinking, it seems like '94 was 6 pretty hectic. And I have a family I raise. I have 7 three children. 8 Q It wasn't anything as stressful as Luke's 9 thing? 10 A No. I don't know about that, no. Not at 11 all. 12 Q Really? They don't tell you about that? 13 They don't say, Luke is -- 14 A My brother is a lot younger than I am. I 15 just am not in contact with him on his personal stuff, 16 not hardly at all. 17 Q Did you ever hear the story about Larry 18 coming to your dad's house and going swimming and then 19 your dad selling his house? 20 A No. 21 Q You don't know that one either? 22 A No. 23 Q So if KRL owns a house and it gets sold, 24 you might not even hear about it? 25 A I am sure my brother would say something. 1472 1 Like I said, I am not worried about it. You know, I 2 trust my brother. I trust my father. 3 Q Your brother being Roland? 4 A Yes. I trust both my brothers. They are 5 just a little bit younger. And I am in more contact with 6 my brother. We are closer. 7 Q So you trust Larry? 8 A Yeah. Of course I do. He is young but, 9 of course, I do. 10 Q He has had some young issues? 11 A You know what, I don't keep up with that. 12 I have children that are 24, 13 and 8. I don't have time 13 to be in my brothers' business that way. I just don't 14 know. 15 Q Okay. So do you know how KRL pays Robert 16 Womack? 17 A No, I wouldn't know that information. 18 Q Did you ever -- 19 A I don't have -- well, the accountant. If 20 I needed anything, I would go to the accountant. 21 Q And the accountant's name is? 22 A I can't remember it. I don't know what 23 the accountant's name that they are dealing with now. I 24 don't remember who it was. We have had different ones 25 and different attorneys. And I don't know their names. 1473 1 Q When -- who do you think the last 2 accountant you had was? 3 A Oh, I couldn't guess. I am sorry. I 4 don't. 5 Q At the end of 1997, did you get a check 6 from KRL? 7 A Mmmm... I don't know. 8 Q Is there a way that you could make that 9 determination somehow? 10 A Well, unless I had it in front of me, I 11 don't know. I don't remember receiving anything. I 12 don't know. 13 Q In past years, you have you received 14 checks from KRL? 15 A I am sure I have. But I couldn't tell you 16 specifically. I mean, we get checks from all over for 17 different things. I don't know. I am sorry. 18 Q How many businesses do you currently own? 19 A Mmmm... I am not sure what my husband, 20 all his holdings are. I can't tell you that. 21 Q How many businesses do you own, members of 22 the Womack family? 23 A I was just in KRL Partnership. Until 24 recently. 25 Q What is a Ridge Road Vineyards? 1474 1 A I am not -- I don't know. 2 Q Grand Jury Exhibit 48. 3 A I don't know. I don't -- never seen that. 4 Q Does your dad make wine? 5 A You know what? He possibly could. I 6 don't know what he does all the time. I have no idea. I 7 know he likes wine. But other than that, I don't know. 8 Q Okay. About two months ago, KRL sold a 9 '72 Jaguar. Did you have any information related to 10 that? 11 A I could have. I don't remember. I don't 12 know all the different cars we have. 13 Q KRL Partnership financial statements. Who 14 draws these up, if you know? I am going to show you 15 Grand Jury Exhibit 50. Maybe it will help. 16 A I don't know. 17 Q Okay. Does this make sense? 18 A What year is that from? Yeah, I don't -- 19 I don't have any idea. 20 Q Date on here 11 of '97? 21 A I may have seen it. I don't remember. I 22 don't recall. My husband -- we have, you know, our own 23 own financial statements, too. I don't know. 24 Q There have been people that have testified 25 that may have testified that your dad told them to not 1475 1 remember. Is that what you are doing today? 2 A No. I am just not good at remembering 3 things. 4 Q Did your dad tell you that don't volunteer 5 any information? 6 A No. Actually, he didn't tell me anything. 7 Q Other than -- 8 A He just wanted to show me a newspaper 9 article. 10 Q Pretty interesting, huh? 11 A Well, yeah. It's very interesting. 12 Q What's the most interesting thing? 13 A Well, I don't know. It's just all hard to 14 take in. 15 Q Yeah? Did he tell you that he is the guy 16 that hauled the tank off? 17 A No. But he said there was a tank that I 18 think you guys wanted that was returned to you and then 19 destroyed. That's about as -- 20 Q Destruction of evidence, huh? 21 A Yeah, that's what I heard. 22 Q That's what he told you? 23 A He was basically telling my husband more 24 than... 25 Q Where did he get that information from? 1476 1 A My father? 2 Q Did he tell you? 3 A No. I have no idea. I assume just -- I 4 don't know. He knows. I don't know. 5 Q So when you guys were in the early '80s, 6 you owned the Ridge Road house now valued at $900,000. 7 Some of your brothers would have been 11-year-olds. 8 That's a pretty nice house for 11-year-olds to own, huh? 9 A It was a partnership, corporation, 10 whatever, at that time. 11 Q And the partnership pays the house 12 payment, PG&E, water, phones? 13 A Yeah. I wouldn't know on that. 14 Q Do you remember when you were part of it? 15 A I don't know how it was handled. That's 16 why we have an accountant. 17 Q But you don't know who the accountant is? 18 A No, not at this time. I can't recall. 19 It's on record, I am sure. My brother knows. I don't. 20 I just don't know. I don't know who our accountant is 21 for Moore Tractor. I just don't know that. 22 Q Does that make sense, that the business is 23 worth about $5 million after the debts? 24 A I would not know that. I mean, it looks 25 good on paper. I don't know. 1477 1 Q The last year that you knew, how much was 2 the business worth? 3 A I wouldn't have any idea. I don't keep 4 abreast of those figures. I don't know. I probably knew 5 at the time, if it was right in front of me. Otherwise, 6 I don't know. 7 Q Do you have a mortgage on your house now? 8 A Yes. But I don't know what that is. 9 Q Well, the one that is labeled Nadine, 10 that doesn't appear to have been endorsed by a notary. 11 Is that your understanding? From Grand Jury Exhibit 60? 12 A By a notary? 13 Q Yeah. 14 A No, it doesn't have anything attached to 15 it. 16 Q So that might be just out there pending? 17 Or you can't tell? 18 A I don't know. I don't know. 19 Q Have you been told by Roland at any time: 20 Larry signed over his share to me. 21 Sorry. Standing too close. 22 A No. That's okay. 23 No. I don't know. I don't remember if he 24 has told me that or not. It's not really a big concern 25 of mine. 1478 1 Q Well, I wanted to get this into evidence. 2 I am going to get it into evidence this way. 3 This is Grand Jury Exhibit 72. Can you 4 skim through this ledger and see if you immediately 5 recognize any handwriting other than an occasional 6 deposit by a banker as any writing other than your 7 father's? 8 A Of my father's? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A No, I wouldn't know that. 11 Q You wouldn't know whether if that was your 12 dad's writing? 13 A No. It looks an awful lot like my 14 brother's, Roland's. But I don't know. 15 Q Okay. Does Roland do a lot of the KRL 16 work, if you know? 17 A I don't know that. 18 Q When work is done to expand the house on 19 Ridge Road, is that done with KRL money? 20 A I -- I don't -- I wouldn't know that. 21 Q This does become public record, but I 22 still need to ask you: Your phone numbers, do you have 23 home and car phones? 24 A Yeah, yes. 25 Q Could you read those into the record, 1479 1 please. 2 A I don't know my car phone, the car phone 3 one. But my home phone is area code xxx xxx-xxxx. 4 Q It's been that way for a couple, three 5 years, anyway? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did your dad talk to you about the search 8 warrant done at his house? 9 A Well, after the fact. I -- my -- my 10 brother called me and told me. My parents were going 11 somewhere. That this D.A.'s Office or somebody came up 12 and was searching their house for evidence. 13 Q Did they find it? 14 A I don't know. I just know they took a lot 15 of stuff, according to my brother. I think my brother 16 went up there to see what was going on, but they wouldn't 17 let him in. 18 Q Which brother? 19 A Roland. 20 Q Roland told you they wouldn't let him in? 21 A I am not sure. But I thought he had to 22 stand outside. 23 Q That's -- 24 A I could be wrong on that. I am not sure. 25 Q Did you talk to Luke about that also? 1480 1 A No. I haven't talked to Luke, huh-uh. 2 Q Did he say they trashed the house? 3 A No, he didn't say. 4 Q Did he -- what did he say about, other 5 than they went up there and took a bunch of stuff? 6 A Well, I asked him why, what was going on? 7 And Roland said it had something to do with the property 8 that Roland and Nadine were buying to make that parking 9 lot for their office. 10 Q Did Roland tell you that they seized a 11 videotape? 12 A No. I think that my dad told me that. 13 Q Okay. 14 A Because I had seen that videotape 15 somewhat. I didn't pay too much attention to it. 16 Q He said, Look at this great videotape I 17 have? 18 A I was laughing, laughing because my mother 19 had taken it. And I thought that was funny that she 20 would sit across and take a picture. But they wanted it 21 for -- Roland and Nadine, I guess, were out of town at 22 the time. And they had some big tractor thing pushing 23 down stuff. And they wanted them to see it. I don't 24 know. I just -- I did not pay attention. I didn't go up 25 to see a videotape. It was just on. 1481 1 Q They were watching the videotape, and you 2 happened to come by and visit, and there it was playing 3 along? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q Do you remember when that was? 6 A Pardon? 7 Q Do you remember when that was? 8 A Mmmm... No. You know, I don't have a 9 specific -- I think it was before Mother's Day, I think. 10 I am not sure. I don't recall the exact date. 11 Q The next questions are going to sound a 12 little weird. Please don't take offense to them. 13 Do you know that your father has at times 14 in his life surreptitiously taped Government officials? 15 A No, I don't know anything about that. 16 Q You are not taping us today, are you? 17 A No. 18 Q Okay. I told you it would sound a little 19 weird? 20 A I wouldn't know how to do it, no. 21 Q You are watching this videotape and they 22 said, Hey, look. What a great thing we did? 23 A My husband was interested because of the 24 kinds of -- I don't know what it's called -- big tractor 25 piece of equipment. 1482 1 Q Piece of heavy equipment? 2 A It was big and it was doing -- my husband 3 was quite impressed with what it was doing. 4 Q It's a nice tool. Mr. Wolin is trying to 5 get a patent on that, I think. 6 A I don't know. 7 Q So that that would have been after the 8 tank came out of the ground if you were watching the 9 video, unless you were there on Saturday night? 10 A I don't recall what date it was. It's 11 been a while back. 12 Q Was your dad already talking about, Boy, I 13 am in trouble for this? 14 A No. He was talking about that big 15 machine. I don't -- and showing the grandkids. That's 16 all I heard. I really wasn't, you know, sitting down. 17 It wasn't that interesting to me. 18 Q Did you pull up a glass of Ridge Road 19 Winery wine and watch that tractor knock down the gas 20 station? 21 A I think I was in the kitchen helping my 22 mother cook. 23 Q Okay. So you didn't hear about the search 24 warrant too much from Roland, but then you did hear about 25 it from your dad. 1483 1 What did he say? 2 A Mmmm... Oh, when you -- when they went up 3 to the house? 4 Q I wasn't there. 5 A I am sorry. I don't know who it was. I 6 don't know the names. 7 Yeah, they had come and taken a bunch of 8 stuff. 9 Q Who did he say was there? 10 A Oh, I don't recall that. 11 Q How many people did he say? 12 A Oh, I don't know. I don't know the number 13 of people. 14 Q And what did he say they did to his house? 15 A Mmmm... Well, my mother was upset, just 16 because they went through -- it sounded like through the 17 whole house. She just thought it was invasion of 18 privacy. I was mostly talking to my mother a little bit 19 about it. And I heard that something about his computer 20 and other things. I don't know specifically. 21 Q What about his computer? 22 A That they took that. I thought that was 23 funny. I don't know. 24 Q What's on the computer? 25 A I couldn't tell you. I don't know. 1484 1 Q Who bought the computer? 2 A Pardon? 3 Q Who bought the computer? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Probably KRL, if you were going to guess? 6 A I wouldn't want to guess. I don't know. 7 Q When was the last time your dad bought 8 himself something of value that cost more than $200 that 9 you know of with his own money? 10 A Oh, I don't know. I couldn't answer that. 11 Q Did your dad ever tell you about the 12 advertisement he took out for the return of the tank? 13 A I don't recall that. 14 Q But he did tell you that the District 15 Attorney's Office ordered his tank destroyed? 16 A Mmmm... I think he was talking to my 17 husband, actually, and myself. And I heard that he said 18 that the tank had been destroyed because they were going 19 to use it as evidence or something, that he could have 20 used it. I don't know. I don't know the specifics of 21 that. 22 Q Did your dad tell you that every single 23 underground storage tank that comes out of the ground in 24 the State of California plus or minus 2 percent is 25 destroyed? 1485 1 A No, he didn't tell me that. He just told 2 me that he had a permit from the City. 3 Q Did he show that you permit? 4 A No, he didn't. 5 Q No, he didn't? Or yes he did? 6 A No, he did not. I have never seen a 7 permit. 8 Q Did your dad tell you that the County told 9 him to get a permit from the County and he didn't do it? 10 A Mmmm... I just heard the City gave him a 11 permit. That's all I know. That he paid for a permit 12 through the City. 13 Q Okay. Did your dad tell you that he was 14 told -- 15 A And I think I read that. 16 Q -- by the County to get a permit? 17 A I'm sorry? Pardon? 18 Q Did your dad tell you before -- did your 19 dad at any time tell you that he was told before he took 20 the tank out of the ground by the County to get a County 21 permit? 22 A No. 23 Q Did your dad at any time tell you that the 24 City of Jackson told him to get a County permit before he 25 took the tank out of the ground? 1486 1 A No, I don't think so. I have just heard 2 about the City. He hasn't gone into great detail with me 3 about any of this. 4 MR. IREY: Not very fair that I am reading this, 5 is it? 6 Q Did Womack tell you that the vice mayor is 7 extremely unhappy with the way this is being handled? 8 A Is that who? I am sorry? Who did you say? 9 Q Vice Mayor Marilyn Lewis. 10 A She is the one that wrote today's article? 11 Q It looks like it, but on front it's 12 labeled Diane Smith. 13 A I wouldn't know. I read over it quickly. 14 Q Did your dad tell you about the 15 letter-writing campaign, he is faxing people like the guy 16 out there stuff to put in the letters to the editor? 17 A No. 18 Q Does it surprise you that's the kind of 19 guy your dad is? 20 A I don't think he would do that. I don't 21 think he has to. 22 Q What did that last half sentence mean? 23 A I mean, he is not that type of person. He 24 doesn't do stuff like that. 25 Q Okay. 1487 1 A This guy is kind of riled up on his own, I 2 think. I mean, from what I can tell, sitting with him. 3 Q You can still hear him, huh? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q Okay. Last year for a while, Robert 6 Womack and Roland Womack -- I'm sorry -- Robert Womack 7 and June Womack owned part of KRL. Do you know anything 8 about that? 9 A They never owned any of KRL, hm-mmm. 10 Q As far as you know? 11 A As far as I know, yeah, hm-mmm. 12 Q Okay. So how many conversations total 13 have you had with your father regarding the underground 14 storage tank removal? 15 A Less than, I am sure, five. 16 Q And you saw the videotape. 17 And did your dad ever tell you that he 18 provided an edited copy to the District Attorney's 19 Office? 20 A No. He said that he handed over that tape 21 that my mother had videoed. 22 Q He told you that? 23 A Uh-huh. 24 Q So he told you, I handed over the tape to 25 the D.A.? 1488 1 A Or somebody did. I might have the wording 2 wrong. But the tape that my mother shot was -- 3 Q He didn't tell you the one we got 4 originally was 30 minutes shorter than the one he had in 5 his house? 6 A I wouldn't know whose it was. Like I told 7 you, I didn't really find it too interesting. 8 Q My question was, did he tell you -- 9 A No. 10 Q -- that he gave us an edited tape? 11 A No, I never heard that. 12 Q Would it surprise you that he gave us an 13 edited tape? 14 A He wouldn't do that. 15 Q Would it surprise you that the edited tape 16 was 31 minutes shorter than the original tape? 17 A I wouldn't know about that. 18 Q But would it surprise you? 19 A That it was shorter? I don't have an 20 answer for that. I mean, I don't... 21 Q A minute ago, you said he wouldn't do it. 22 A Right. I mean, I don't believe my father 23 would edit a tape that -- I mean, I just understood, 24 whatever tape that was, it was just handed over. That's 25 as far as my understanding is about that tape. I don't 1489 1 know how long it's run. I haven't heard anybody doing 2 anything or anything else. 3 Q When you saw the tape, did it go all the 4 way to the tank coming out of the ground? 5 A You know what, I left -- I wasn't paying 6 attention after that big machine pushed something down. 7 I don't know. I was laughing because my mother was 8 sitting in the truck all day doing that or car or 9 whatever. I thought that was funny. 10 Q Did she tell you about how hard it was 11 raining at the end? 12 A Pardon? 13 Q Did she tell you about how hard it was 14 raining at the end when the tanks came out of ground or 15 anything like that? 16 A No, I don't recall that, hearing anything 17 about rain. 18 Q One of the questions the Grand Jurors 19 might ask, so I will go ahead and ask it so that you can 20 take it as a question from me. 21 Do you have any condition, car wrecks, 22 taking medications, that would affect your memory today? 23 A No. 24 Q It's just that you don't deal with in the 25 day-to-day KRL business? 1490 1 A I just have trouble remembering my stuff 2 at home. I am sorry. Too many irons in the fire. 3 MR. IREY: At this time, if any Members of the 4 Grand Jury have any questions, I would be happy to ask 5 them of Ms. Moore. 6 Q Did you say that you were a close family? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Why don't you know who is doing what? 9 A Well, I probably did at the time. I just 10 can't recall everything that's ever gone on in my life. 11 You know, it's hard to sit up here without any 12 information in front of you and to refer back to 13 anything. 14 Q Walk me through this. Since 1990, how 15 many properties have you sold as KRL Partnership that was 16 more than three quarters of a million dollars? 17 A Yeah, I couldn't answer that. I wouldn't 18 know at this time. 19 Q After what is going on now, do you believe 20 your family is doing what is in your best interest? 21 A Oh, always. I don't ever worry about 22 that. 23 Q You stated you are a close family, yet you 24 know nothing about a business that you are in partnership 25 with. 1491 1 A Well, it was easier when I was dealing 2 with it. If I had any questions, I went to the 3 accountant or the attorney at the time, and I -- you 4 know, I am not an attorney. I am not an accountant. 5 Q Do the accountants or attorneys make the 6 decisions of the partnership? 7 A No. They advise. I mean, Jeez. They 8 know -- hopefully, they know what they are talking about. 9 Q So when you are getting ready to sell 10 three-quarter million dollar property or $2 million 11 property, you go to Roland or you go to the accountant or 12 you go to an attorney or you go to a real estate agent? 13 How does that work? 14 A Well, it could be all those. 15 Q Last time you sold a property for three 16 quarters of a million? 17 A I couldn't tell you. I don't know. 18 Q In the last two months, when you sold that 19 property to the casino, how many conversations did you 20 have before you sold it with Roland? 21 A I don't know. Like I told you, I am not 22 up here doing that. 23 Q Do you work? Other than in the home. PC. 24 A No, I don't. 25 Q How does KRL make its money? 1492 1 A At this time, I couldn't tell you. 2 Q You are the "K" though, right? 3 A Uh-huh, I was "K" which started back in 4 the early '80s, uh-huh. 5 Q Could you tell us about why there aren't 6 two Ls? 7 A Mmmm... No, not really. 8 Q At one point, was it Luke, and then Larry, 9 and then Luke and Larry and then it was Larry and Luke, 10 then Larry, Luke? 11 A I think the "L" stands for both of them. 12 It's easier that way. 13 Q How can you now own or have a share in 14 something you signed away in '94? 15 A On paper, yes. But, you know, my brothers 16 have my best interests, along with my father. And I 17 don't worry about it. 18 Q Please provide us with a list of other 19 things you signed away in '94 that you still own. 20 A Mmmm... I wouldn't know. No, I wouldn't 21 know. 22 Q When the family gets together on holidays, 23 what, in capital letters, do you talk about? 24 A Jeez, I couldn't tell you. We have big 25 families on both sides. 1493 1 Q I don't recognize this handwriting. I 2 cannot ask the next question, but I will read it into the 3 record after Ms. Moore -- nope. I am going to ask it. 4 Did your father raise monkeys, i.e., see 5 no evil, hear no evil, say no evil? 6 A No. 7 Q When your dad said the tank was destroyed, 8 how and where was that done? 9 A Oh, I don't know. 10 Q He just said, The D.A. destroyed my 11 evidence? 12 A I think that's, yeah, all I heard, yeah. 13 I don't know anything else was said. 14 Q Since you signed your share of KRL over to 15 Roland, does that mean you gave up your inheritance or 16 your share of your inheritance? 17 A No. I don't even worry about that. I 18 am -- just nothing I worry about at all. 19 Q Your husband's business is pretty big? 20 A Been in business for over 40 years. 21 Q Is Davis growing faster toward Dixon or 22 Vacaville growing faster toward Dixon? 23 A Vacaville. 24 Q That's my question. 25 How can you say you are a quarter partner 1494 1 in KRL if you signed over your share? 2 A Yeah. On paper, yeah, I did. And I 3 don't -- like I said, I don't worry about that at all. 4 Q Do you think you still have a share in the 5 partnership? 6 A No. I signed that over. 7 Q Are you curious or do you know the net 8 worth of KRL? 9 A No, I -- at this time, I don't. And I am 10 not curious about it at all. 11 Q If you are a partner in KRL, do you 12 receive any money from that corporation? Or I will ask a 13 second question. Start again. 14 If you are a partner in KRL, do you 15 receive any money from that corporation that would be 16 transferred to any type of account? Example, 401K, 17 savings, trust fund, et cetera. 18 A No, I don't. No, hm-mmm. 19 Q So on that one -- 20 A I don't know. I don't know at this time. 21 Q If you are a partner in KRL, do you 22 receive any money from that partnership that would be 23 transferred to any type of account, example, 401K, 24 savings, trust fund, et cetera? 25 A Yeah. No. I wouldn't know that. I mean, 1495 1 all of that when I was involved in would be on record, 2 so... 3 Q Are the grandkids getting close to being 4 in KRL or not? 5 A I have no idea. 6 Q There is another R. There is a Roland 7 somewhere. Is that one of your children? 8 A Yes. My son. 9 Q Okay. Just -- there were basically 10 birthday checks in there. More than one per year? 11 A Yeah. He is a 13-year-old. 12 Q If you are such a close family, why is it 13 that you are unaware of personal relationships, 14 fall-outs, et cetera, between your brothers and their 15 father? 16 A I just -- like I said before, they are 17 much younger and I don't involve myself in -- on either 18 side of our families. We have big families on both 19 sides. It's not of interest to me. I have enough to 20 worry about with my three kids. 21 Q When you were 25, 26, did your dad sell 22 any of your houses out from underneath you? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you ever get in big fights with your 25 dad because you swam in his swimming pool so he sold your 1496 1 house? 2 A There might have been things I did he 3 didn't know about. 4 Q But he didn't sell the place you were 5 living in or kick you out? 6 A No, he has never done that, no. 7 Q Besides Larry, if it happened to Larry, do 8 you know -- 9 A I didn't know about it. 10 Q -- has it happened to any of your 11 brothers? 12 A Pardon? 13 Q Besides Larry, do you know if any of your 14 other brothers -- say, his favorite ski boat. Did your 15 dad ever sell one the kid's favorite ski boats because 16 they made him mad? 17 A I don't know that. 18 Q You don't have knowledge? 19 A No, I don't have any knowledge of that. 20 MR. IREY: Any other questions of the Grand 21 Jurors? 22 Q Did you list KRL on your State and Federal 23 income tax returns? 24 A When? 25 Q Ever. 1497 1 A Oh, yeah. I am sure, yeah. I go back to 2 the records and look. I couldn't tell you specifically. 3 But we have always done everything through our 4 accountant. He handles that. 5 Q If you know, when did you stop? 6 A I'm sorry? 7 Q If you know, when did you stop listing KRL 8 on your State and Federal income tax returns? 9 A Oh, I don't know. I don't know. 10 Q What is your Social Security Number? 11 A Mmmm... 572-11-9575. 12 MR. IREY: Any others questions? 13 At this time, the Foreman has what's 14 called an admonition for you. Thank you for your time 15 and driving over. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 MR. IREY: I am sure it wasn't much fun. 18 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 19 to any person except as direct by the Court what 20 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 21 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 22 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 23 appearance before the Grand Jury. 24 This admonition continues unless and until 25 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 1498 1 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 2 punishable as contempt of court. 3 This does not prevent you from discussing 4 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 5 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 6 Grand Jury. 7 And if I could get to you date and sign. 8 THE WITNESS: That means my husband, right? I 9 don't say anything? 10 MR. IREY: Hypothetically, we had that question 11 asked earlier. And what we did was, we made a copy of 12 that. Bounce that off of an attorney. We can't give you 13 legal advice, but that would probably be a good first 14 guess. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 MR. IREY: You can show it to somebody and they 17 can give you a better interpretation than I. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you very much. You are 20 free to go. 21 She wants a copy. 22 MR. IREY: It will be just a minute. Do their 23 admonition and then I will walk out. 24 THE FOREPERSON: At this time, Dave, I think we 25 will take a ten-minute... 1499 1 MR. IREY: Okay. You guys might want to -- 2 THE FOREPERSON: Go this way? Okay. 3 We are still on record. The same 4 admonition that I read this morning to my fellow Jurors 5 still applies. And thank you. We will convene in ten 6 minutes. That will be 3:25. 7 And Jan, we are off the record, please. 8 (Recess taken from 3:15 to 3:26 p.m.) 9 THE FOREPERSON: We are on the record. 10 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 11 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 12 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 13 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 14 THE WITNESS: Why, certainly. Yes is the answer, 15 sir. 16 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 17 18 (TIME NOTED: 3:27 P.M.) 19 ---oOo--- 20 RON BROWN 21 Called as a witness herein by the People, 22 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 23 and testified as follows: 24 // 25 // 1500 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. IREY: 3 Q Mr. Brown, sorry about the wait. We are 4 going as fast as we can. 5 A I wish you guys would plan your time a 6 little better. My time is valuable, too. 7 Q Tell us about your time and life, Mr. 8 Brown. 9 A Not much to tell. Retired phone company. 10 I have a lot of time. So with the exception of my wife 11 being sick at home, just got out of the hospital, which I 12 would like to get home to her as soon as possible. 13 That's really all there is to tell, sir. 14 Q Retired PacBell? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And you currently live in Amador County? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you have several thoughts or theories 19 regarding this investigation; is that correct? 20 A You bet. Would you like me to -- 21 Q Please go ahead and go on. 22 A Why am I even here? I am a citizen. I -- 23 you know, in a normal course of my duty, I barely know 24 Mr. Womack. I have just met him a month ago, one time. 25 Just this horrible waste of my tax dollars, is the reason 1501 1 I am incensed over this whole issue. 2 Q Go ahead and tell us the specifics. 3 A Well, for starters, this is a legally 4 removed fuel tank. 5 Q Walk us through -- 6 A He got an $80 permit from the City, 7 legally removed it, the tank, from what I read in the 8 paper. 9 I looked him up in the phone book out of 10 the clear blue sky, not knowing him, less than a month 11 ago. To me, this is a total waste of my tax dollars. 12 Had to make a SWAT raid on the man's house. Who is next 13 in this county? This is totally ridiculous. And take 14 his belongings, his paperwork, rifle through his pink 15 slips on his cars. 16 I mean, as I say, I don't know him. But I 17 am incensed that my tax dollars as a retired person on a 18 fixed income are going towards something like that this. 19 Totally incensed. 20 And I want to know, why am I here? You 21 found one of my papers on his fax, one of the letters I 22 sent him. How did I even become involved in this? 23 Q I don't -- 24 A You can tell me. 25 Q It's not the right forum to be asking me 1502 1 questions, Mr. Brown. 2 If you have any what's called exculpatory 3 evidence to assist Mr. Womack or the Grand Jurors in 4 making their decisions regarding Mr. Womack and Mr. Mason 5 and anybody else who may have committed crimes in May and 6 after of 1998, they are all ears. 7 If possible, if you can limit your amount 8 of repeating the exact statement, that might save us some 9 time. 10 A Oh, I am sorry. I am so livid over this 11 thing. You folks keeping me waiting here for this length 12 of time, too, doesn't make it any easier. 13 Q Okay. 14 A I will be happy -- anything you want to 15 know. Whatever I can do to help. 16 Q You can, to provide exculpatory evidence 17 that Womack didn't do anything wrong. 18 A What I would like to do is, I have 20 19 copies of a letter I wrote up that describes my full 20 knowledge of Mr. Womack I would just like to hand 21 everyone to save your time and mine. 22 Q I can take a peek of it. I probably will 23 be able to pass it around for you. 24 A You are a good man, David. 25 How did I even get associated with Mr. 1503 1 Womack with you folks, is what I would like to know. I 2 mean, you would think there would be leaking school roofs 3 someplace in this county or possibly criminals out there 4 you could go out after besides taking my time in here. 5 $100,000. Just ridiculous. A small 6 county like this. The taxes I pay. 7 Q Where did you get the $100,000 number? 8 A Read it in the paper. I bet it's not 9 going to be far from that. 10 Q I will mark the original copy, and that 11 will be a permanent Grand Jury record. 12 A I think I kept the original here, Dave. 13 You are welcome to it if you want it. But I would like 14 to keep one of my own copies. Double-check, make sure 15 that is the original there. 16 Q You let me know. I don't want to -- I 17 don't get to make decisions here. 18 A These darn xeroxes work so good, it's 19 really hard to tell. I think that probably is the 20 original there. 21 Q Okay. That's the one I will mark then, 22 the one you handed me as the original. 23 Okay. So far, that Womack pulled the tank 24 with a permit, correct? According to you? 25 A I mean, from what I know from the paper 1504 1 and the brief conversation with him after I called him, 2 not knowing the man, yes, to the best of my knowledge. 3 Q Okay. 4 A I don't know the man. He is not a friend, 5 if that is what you are implying. 6 Q I have no ideas of your relationship with 7 Mr. Womack. But I would be happy -- go ahead and tell us 8 how many times you have met with Mr. Womack and how many 9 times you have had conversations with Mr. Womack. 10 A Oh, let's see. I faxed him, I think, one 11 or two faxes. That's probably when they did the theft on 12 his house with the raid. I assume they found one of my 13 faxes. That's probably the only thing I can figure why I 14 am here. 15 I mean, it's ludicrous. I met him -- he 16 goes down to the restaurant where I meet the old phone 17 guys, where we have a cup of coffee on Thursday mornings. 18 I have met him there once. 19 I have probably talked to him on the phone 20 once and faxed him once possibly, possibly twice. I 21 don't know. There may be a third time. I am not sure. 22 Very few times. 23 Q You met him about a month ago? 24 A I can tell you exactly when I met the 25 man. Because I called him the same day I saw this 1505 1 article in the paper. It was right here, and in Amador 2 Ledger Dispatch. Friday, November 6th. Now, that should 3 have been my first phone call to him. 4 I believe that was my first knowledge of 5 this incident right here. 6 Q Fifteen days ago? 7 A Oh, wait a minute. That's not it. Let me 8 go back a little further. Sorry. I grabbed the wrong 9 one. It was the very first time he was in the paper 10 here. I will have it in a minute. Whatever it was, it 11 was about a month and maybe a week ago. From the 12 first -- oh, I guess maybe I don't have it. 13 Anyway, I would say a month and a week. 14 Five weeks ago was my first dealings with him, whenever 15 it first came out in the Dispatch. You want an exact 16 date? I don't have it. I don't have the article with 17 me. 18 You folks must have everything. When did 19 it first come out in the Dispatch? 20 Q The way it works is, I ask questions, and 21 you can answer them if you want. 22 A Okay. 23 Q So let's ask questions about today's 24 letter. 25 A Yeah. 1506 1 Q "I learned about the Womack article on 2 November 6th. I had no knowledge before that." 3 So this first paragraph says that ten days 4 ago was the first you heard of Robert Womack? 5 A That was my mistake then. My first -- 6 because I did the same thing I did here. I grabbed the 7 other article. It had to be about five weeks ago, rather 8 than November 6th. So that was my mistake. 9 Q Okay. "This article stated that Mr. 10 Womack had removed his storage tank with a legal $80 11 permit and that the City and County were staging an 12 all-out campaign against him. I could not believe that 13 this was happening in America, let alone Amador County." 14 So the article in the Ledger Dispatch is 15 what incensed you; not your knowledge of the facts. Is 16 that correct? 17 A Uh, yeah. That and my conversation with 18 Bob when I called him. And he -- he pretty much 19 concurred with the -- what I knew. 20 Q You had twenty even copies of this letter? 21 A You know, I have given a few copies out 22 today. There might be a few more roaming around. I am 23 so upset about this issue and my tax dollars going for 24 this that it just drives me nuts. 25 Q Okay. 1507 1 A I don't even know the man. 2 Q My question, if I could? 3 A Go ahead. It's all yours, Dave. 4 Dave, isn't it? 5 Q Better than Mr. Prosecutor. That's all I 6 could tell you. 7 I was just trying to get one copy for each 8 of the Members of the Grand Jury. 9 A I'm sorry. You are welcome to make 10 copies. There is a machine across the hallway. You have 11 my permission. 12 Q So you were incensed. It was your 13 conversation with Robert Womack and the articles in the 14 Ledger Dispatch, correct? 15 A Yes, the article, the first article in the 16 Ledger Dispatch. I swear I have known him more than ten 17 days. It seems like I think it's closer to five weeks, 18 but I don't know. Whatever. The idea is correct. 19 Q I "am incensed and outraged over the 20 horrible waste of taxpayer money." 21 A That's correct. 22 Is that why I am here? Isn't this 23 America? Don't I have a right to free speech? 24 Q I think that's the best thing in America, 25 but I am not supposed to testify. You absolutely have a 1508 1 right to free speech. 2 A So then why am I called to the Grand Jury 3 for article in the paper, sir? 4 Q You may be an eye witness to a crime. You 5 may be a witness to inconsistent statements by Mr. 6 Womack. 7 For instance, did Mr. Womack tell you he 8 is the guy that hauled the tank away? 9 A No. I don't know who hauled it away. 10 Q Did Mr. Womack tell you he knew who hauled 11 the tank away? 12 A I don't know. No. If he did, I don't 13 remember the name. 14 Q That doesn't matter to you? 15 A Either it was a friend of his or somebody 16 he hired. I don't have a clue. 17 Q That doesn't matter to you? 18 A No, no. 19 Q Okay. Go ahead and give us the short list 20 of laws that don't matter to you, Mr. Brown. 21 A Well, what I am incensed about is, he 22 legally got a permit to remove the tank. The essence of 23 the deal is, he removed the tank to what I feel was 24 legally. My tax dollars are -- 100,000 bucks of tax 25 money from this City and County is going to prosecuting 1509 1 this guy and inconveniencing me, a citizen, in the normal 2 courses of my duties. 3 Q So I will give you -- 4 A I don't know what laws are being 5 violated. You know the laws. I can't quote you the 6 laws. I am just a citizen, a damned honest one. I never 7 beAn in jail. I never had a damned traffic ticket. 8 Darned traffic ticket. I apologize. 9 Q But you are wound up, correct? 10 A You bet I am. 11 Q And that's based on Bob Womack and the 12 Ledger Dispatch? 13 A No, sir. I am wound up over being right 14 here, in addition -- well, yes, and my tax dollars going 15 for this, yes, that's correct. Several things. 16 Q But who have you spoken to, other than Bob 17 Womack, regarding whether or not Bob Womack did something 18 illegal? 19 A Let's see. Bob. Really, from what I read 20 in the paper and Bob Womack. Which I believe. There 21 can't be too many lies in here. I mean, it's possible. 22 But who else do I need to talk to besides the man that 23 was involved? 24 Q Did you talk to the County? 25 A No. I believe it was the City, wasn't it? 1510 1 Q Did you talk to the County? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you -- 4 A What would the County say? We are sorry 5 we can't discuss this, would be my guess. 6 Q Did you talk to the City? 7 A No. Be like going to DMV. 8 Q Did you talk to Bob Womack regarding 9 conversations he had with the City? 10 A No, none whatsoever. 11 Q Did Bob Womack tell you he was told by the 12 City to get a County permit? 13 A No. 14 Q Would that change your opinion of Mr. 15 Womack? 16 A No, it wouldn't. 17 Q Why? 18 A I still think it's a horrible waste of tax 19 money. 20 Q Why? 21 A I still think it's a terrible waste of tax 22 dollars. Aren't there criminals out there? 23 Q If I was going to install a phone, and I 24 knew PacBell would be PO'ed if I install a phone and I 25 went ahead and did it, would that be wrong and peculiar? 1511 1 A That would be between you and PacBell or 2 whatever. It would have nothing to do with me. Besides, 3 it's been legal to install telephones for the last 4 fifteen, twenty years. 5 Q My question was, what do you think? If 6 you told me something was theft if I did it the way I was 7 going to do it and I went ahead and did it that way, do 8 you think that that would be a problem? And is your 9 answer truly no? 10 A Truly, aren't we here about a tank and my 11 knowledge of Mr. Womack, rather than talking about a 12 telephone? 13 Q So you don't want to answer that 14 question. 15 A I will answer it. Really, you could do 16 what you want. You can break the law if you want. That 17 will be between you and PacBell and the authorities that 18 be. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Now, if I were told to go out and look for 21 a stolen phone at your house, yeah, I would report it to 22 the company. Would that be similar to what you are 23 talking about? 24 Q I guess what I am saying is, if Mr. Womack 25 was told by the City to go to the County and get permits, 1512 1 then maybe none of this would have happened and the 2 taxpayers waste is because of Mr. Womack's bad acts. 3 A Well, I can't speak for that. All I know 4 is what I read in the paper. And I felt I had a right to 5 put an article in there, but obviously not, since I am 6 here. 7 Q No, Mr. Brown. You do. 8 Go ahead and answer the question. If Mr. 9 Womack was told by the City to go get a County permit and 10 chose not to, and every single dollar spent in this case 11 is because Mr. Womack chose not to get a permit, who and 12 why are you really here? Whose cost -- who is really 13 responsible for the cost? 14 A Hmmm... I would have to think about that 15 a little bit before I answered it, Dave, to be honest 16 with you. 17 Q We have a couple minutes. 18 A Yeah. So you are saying that he was told 19 to get another permit? I would say that would throw 20 somewhat different light on it. 21 Q Okay. Then let's add to that growing 22 foundation that he was told by the County to get a permit 23 three weeks before he went ahead and pulled the tank 24 illegally. 25 Does that throw a little more whatever you 1513 1 said on it? 2 A I don't know. He was given a permit to 3 legally remove the tank. 4 Q Have you seen that? 5 A Yes. As a matter of fact, I believe I 6 have a copy of it. Hopefully, I do. Again, I apologize 7 for losing that original article in the Dispatch. That 8 was a permit to remove an environmental storage tank that 9 he faxed me. 10 Q So he faxed you something? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q I happen to have a copy of that. 13 A Okay. 14 Q This is Grand Jury Exhibit 73. This is 15 dated -- 16 A I may have gave it to one of the other 17 fellows, too. I guess, but I thought I had a copy of 18 that. I think I passed it along to... 19 Q This is dated 9/12/98. That would be nine 20 weeks ago. Is that about the time? 21 A Could -- yeah, if that's what it says. 22 Like I say, I have known Bob such a short time. I could 23 be wrong on the dates. 24 Q Before he sent you this fax, did you guys 25 have a conversation? 1514 1 A Well, I am afraid to say any more dates, 2 because -- 3 Q Did he send you a fax because he learned 4 your fax number? Or did you call and say, Could you send 5 me a fax? 6 A I called him after the original article, 7 which must have been before this 9/12. 8 Q Okay. I think it's probably attached. 9 A Okay. And you know what, I may have given 10 the -- the copies of the permits and all that I had to 11 one of the other fellows. Okay. This -- I think this 12 might have been the article right here. 13 Q Okay. The second page of this fax? 14 A Would this be the first article that came 15 out in the Dispatch? If this was the first article, 16 it would just be within a day or so after this that I 17 would have called him. 18 Q Okay. And then after that, you received a 19 fax? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q Okay. Let's start on the first page of -- 22 this has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 73. 23 A Again, I am no legal person. However, it 24 just seemed -- it seems like a witch hunt to me so far. 25 But I -- I just -- obviously, I was wrong, but I thought 1515 1 I had a right to put what in the paper that I felt, you 2 know, as a citizen, without being called to the Grand 3 Jury and going through all this. But -- 4 Q We are just trying to figure out what you 5 were told by Mr. Womack. And it might help if we could 6 go ahead and read into the record the fax cover sheet 7 from Mr. Womack. 8 A Yeah. Well, I -- this is it. This is a 9 fax that I got from him. Now -- 10 Q Could you read the cover sheet into the 11 record, please. 12 A Okay. The date is 9/12. So it had to 13 be -- I'm going to guess then, maybe -- I don't know, 14 9/5 or something I first met him. I don't really know, 15 Dave. 16 Q Did you meet him or did you -- 17 A I just called him. I looked him up in the 18 telephone book, called him and said, Are you the Bob that 19 was in the paper? And I says, Well, I sympathize with 20 you. And it sounds like a witch hunt on the County's 21 part to me. They are spending an awful lot of money. 22 He thanked me for it. Here. It tells 23 about what he said here. 24 Q Would you read it. Let's start this way. 25 A There we go. 1516 1 Q Here is a copy of an article. I guess I 2 am going to have to mark it now. September 9th, 1998. 3 A Okay. 4 Q Okay. 5 A Let me -- let me read the first line. 6 That could have been it. Like I say, I 7 am afraid to give any more dates. 8 Q It's right here. Same article. 9 A All right. 10 Q Okay. 11 A Yeah. Then that's -- I am going say 12 probably. That's probably then my first knowledge of Bob 13 Womack. 14 Q Okay. Then go ahead and please read that. 15 A That would be -- that was the 9th, right? 16 Q Correct. 17 A Okay. So then I probably would have 18 called him maybe on the 10th or 11th and talked to him. 19 And then he -- obviously, he faxed this to me on the 20 12th. This was for Rick Paul, by the way. 21 Q It was for Rick Paul? 22 A Yes. 23 Q That's your friend? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q You asked him, Could you fax me something? 1517 1 I will pass it on to Rick Paul. 2 A Yeah. 3 Q So did you then hand the originals to Rick 4 Paul? 5 A I must have, because I don't have it here, 6 Dave. Generally, I have got everything that pertains to 7 Womack right here. I just don't have it. I know I had a 8 copy of this like you had here. 9 Q If you could go ahead again and read the 10 cover letter into the record. 11 A Okay. You want me to read the whole 12 thing? 13 Q Sure. 14 A Why don't I -- Ron, 9/12. Again, my 15 error. I apologize. "Ron, thank you for the fax and 16 mostly for the letter to the Dispatch." 17 Well, this would almost tell me I had to 18 get the letter in the Dispatch before that date, huh, 19 Dave? There might have been something before that. 20 Really, honest, I can't tell you. 21 Q I am not trying to cross you up. I am 22 trying to -- 23 A No, I -- 24 Q -- get this document into the record. 25 A If I would have known, thinking any of 1518 1 this was going to happen, I would have kept better track 2 of the dates. My guess, if that -- 3 Q You can say generically, if it is true, 4 your dates are plus or minus. 5 A Might have wrote the article on the 9th or 6 10th and then called Bob and looked him up at that time. 7 Suffice it to say I have known Bob a very short time. I 8 only met with him once. That was at the cafe. Anyway. 9 "Ron, thank you for the fax and mostly for 10 the letter to the Dispatch." 11 Do you need to tell what letter here, 12 Dave? 13 Q I will look for it while you are reading. 14 A All right. "I told Rick that I would fax 15 the following material. If you have any questions, 16 please call 296-4196, fax 296-1510. Sheet number one. 17 Paper pretty much says it all. Fine per D.A. was 125 18 grand if we couldn't return the tank and $37,000 if we 19 did. Plus other costs. Schooling three years." 20 Schooling. Schooling? He has to go to 21 school? 22 "And three years probation. 23 "No. 2. Permit issued by City in 1988 to 24 install gas lines. 25 "3. Permit issued by City in 1988 to 1519 1 remove and replace tank." 2 So apparently then at that time, they did 3 put in a new -- I have learned since then it was a new 4 double-wall tank and everything was done. 5 "No. 4. Permit issued by City to remove 6 old service station. 7 "No. 5. Permit to -- permit to past -- 8 to -- Mmmm... It is a word that looks like "past" but it 9 doesn't make any sense. It's worded, "Permit to past on 10 job demolition." Oh. "Permit to post on job 11 demolition." That was probably a building permit or 12 something to that effect, I would assume. 13 Q You don't think that was the same as the 14 take the tank out of the ground permit? 15 A I don't have a clue. 16 Q Okay. 17 A Demolition is a demolition, as far as I am 18 concerned. At the top, a permit. 19 "No. 6. Meeting where Gary Clark 20 recommended to turn Womack over to the D.A. and the EPA." 21 Jeez. "Call Rich Escamilla." okay. Let me try to read 22 this. It doesn't make a lot of sense. 23 "No. 6. Meeting where Gary Clark 24 recommended to turn Womack over to the D.A. and the EPA. 25 Rich Escamilla" -- Escabo, it looks like -- "agreed. 1520 1 "No. 7. A copy of Vehicle Code given to 2 me by the CHP." 3 I don't know what that -- it's been a 4 while since I have read this. Like I say, I must have 5 passed it on to Rick. Probably something to do with the 6 transportation of the tank. 7 "No. 8. Letter from the County. 8 "No. 9. Letter from the District 9 Attorney. 10 "No. 10. Letter from Connie Sherrill 11 to" -- somebody. It says just "to." 12 "No. 11. Letter we are sending to the 13 Grand Jury. 14 "No. 12. Copy of the people we have dealt 15 with regarding this" -- I can't make out that word. The 16 word that would fit in there is issue, but it looks -- 17 looks like olio. 18 Q The rest of the letter? 19 A Signed, Bob. And his phone number and 20 fax. 21 Q Okay. So briefly, you received this 22 packet. Then you passed it on to Mr. Paul? 23 A Right. 24 Q And from the looks of this letter -- 25 A Apparently, I didn't keep any copies. 1521 1 Q -- you must have told him that you sent a 2 letter to the editor? 3 A Yes. Yeah, I would have said, Bob, I will 4 write a letter on your behalf or I wrote a letter on your 5 behalf that this issue incenses me as a taxpayer in this 6 County. 7 After talking to him and getting facts 8 from him, from getting his side of the story, as a 9 citizen and taxpayer, I then wrote the letter. Which I 10 didn't think at that time was illegal. Apparently, I 11 have committed some kind of crime to be here. 12 Q You are just a witness. 13 What did Bob Womack tell you happened? 14 A Just essentially what it says there. He 15 got the $80 permit, pulled a tank on a Sunday so he 16 wouldn't inconvenience any traffic. And tank was 17 disposed of. 18 Sounds likes heck of a bargain to me for 19 the County. If you go by my letter there, I put: Jeez, 20 what a bargain for the County that was $80 permit. You 21 got rid of all that? 22 Q Get to that in a second. 23 This is dated June 8, 1988, correct? 24 A June 8th, okay. 25 Q Part of his fax to you? 1522 1 A Yeah. 2 Q City permit? 3 A Mm-hmm. 4 Again, I am not an attorney, so I don't 5 fully know exactly what I am looking at here. It all 6 looks pretty legal to me. 7 Q Looks pretty much like a City permit? 8 A Okay. It states at the top permit number, 9 Building Application, Department of Plans and 10 Inspections. 11 Q June of '88? City of Jackson? 12 A June, yeah. 13 Q Okay. Then this has been marked Grand 14 Jury Exhibit 28. 15 A Okay. 16 Q Okay. And here inside this is a what? 17 A Let me see. That's a County permit 18 application for underground storage tank installation, 19 July 19, 1998. 20 Q So the same time he got a City permit, he 21 got a County permit in 1988. That would be Dave Mason. 22 Is that your understanding, from looking 23 at these two documents? 24 A I don't know. You know, I am --. 25 Q Okay. Let's -- 1523 1 A I don't know these people. 2 Q I know -- 3 A I don't even know why I am here. 4 Q Let's read owner here? 5 A This is ridiculous. Okay. Owner, David 6 Mason. 7 Q Owner? 8 A Dave Mason. Okay. 9 Q So in '88, there was a County and City 10 permit. Why would Mr. Womack, if he knew that, tell you 11 that only a City permit was required? 12 A Jeez, Dave, I don't know. 13 Q Okay. 14 A You know, I just do the best I can as a 15 citizen. I am no attorney. I don't know what's needed 16 to remove a storage tank. 17 Q A $100 -- 18 A Just an upset taxpayer. 19 Q What if only a $100 permit was required? 20 A Say, anything less -- any permit would be, 21 you know, yeah, so what? $80, $100. What difference 22 would it make? 23 Q So you get a $100 permit, pull the tank 24 legally, none of these issues happen. 25 A Wonderful thing. 1524 1 Q If you are told by Mr. City employee and 2 Mr. County employee, get a $100 permit, and that's legal, 3 and you choose not to do it and all of this happens, who 4 is the one that pushed the snow down the hill? 5 A Excuse me? Didn't I -- I thought I had a 6 copy of something that said he had an $80 permit. That's 7 what I saw in here. 8 Q That's what he faxed to you. Bob Womack, 9 correct? 10 A Yeah, yeah. 11 Q Anywhere on here it talk about taking out 12 underground storage tank? 13 A Yeah, right here. It says removal of old 14 service station, which would be a building, anything 15 pertinent to a service station. That would be lifts in 16 the ground. Did he have a vehicle lift in there? As I 17 recollect, Roger used to run the station. There was a 18 lift in there. Yeah. Anything that goes with it. 19 Probably some minor excavation on the back, whatever it 20 took. 21 Q Contaminated soil, hazardous waste. Just 22 take it all out for this 80 bucks? 23 A Whatever. Yeah. What a bargain. 24 Q Okay. So then there is a post in a 25 conspicuous place tag that he faxed to you. 1525 1 A Mm-hmm. 2 Q That's what's commonly referred to as 3 what? 4 A A building permit, as I would call it, as 5 he would do, too. 6 Q And he faxed that to you? 7 A Yeah. 8 Q Lot of signatures from inspectors? 9 A I am going to assume, yeah, he did fax it 10 to me. 11 Do I read every sheet of paper? No, I 12 don't. Rick would have a copy of it. 13 Q Any signatures on there from any 14 inspectors? 15 A None that I can read. Looks like a 16 brand-new permit. 17 Q Okay. And then this list doesn't look 18 familiar to you, No. 7? 19 A I think this is it, too. 20 Yeah, you know, I remember this 120 21 gallons of residue. I would say that was there. I am 22 going to say everything here. 23 Q Then a letter from County to Mason. 24 A Yeah, in fact, you know, I think I do have 25 that one somewhere. 1526 1 Q Then an original letter inviting them in 2 to chat about it? 3 A What are you asking me, Dave? 4 Q Do you recall this letter? 5 A Mmmm... Let me see if I have a copy. No, 6 I don't. I mean, I have got so much paperwork here. 7 Did I read it? Yes, probably. I am not 8 trying to tell you, no, I didn't read it. I have just 9 been overwhelmed by paperwork. 10 Q A letter from Connie Sherrill saying how 11 unhappy she was with the way I treated her? 12 A Yes. I believe I have a copy of that, 13 too. 14 Q Read this into the record. This is real 15 interesting to me. 16 A Let me check my reading here, first. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Yeah, I remember this. I am sure I read 19 this. It was faxed to me. I would say, yeah, 20 definitely. 21 Q Could you read that into the record. 22 A Oh, I'm sorry. You folks haven't read 23 this at all? 24 Q You are the first guy. 25 A You guys have a copy? 1527 1 "To the Members of the Grand Jury: 2 "We the undersigned have been told we will 3 probably be referred to you for alleged violations of the 4 regulations concerning the demolition of a service 5 station and the transportation of an empty fuel tank. 6 "If that comes about, we would like to be 7 able to appear before you to tell our side of the story 8 and to why we feel we did everything we could to comply 9 with proper regulations. It we" -- this as little 10 complicated here. 11 "It we appear, we would like" -- it must 12 be, he must mean, "If we appear, we would like to bring 13 in some other things to your attention, such as the 14 amount of money spent by the County officials on an 15 investigation where there was no injury or damage, the 16 fact that we are being singled out for prosecution 17 unfairly, the fact that we believe we are being singled 18 out because of a vendetta by County officials, the fact 19 that we are being harassed and asked to bring thousands 20 of dollars in fines when we did get permits, and the fact 21 that County officials are attempting to change their 22 stories after the fact." 23 Q Signed by whom? 24 A Robert Womack, Nadine Womack. Looks like 25 Mark Sherrill. I can't read his signature. It's typed 1528 1 in here. Connie Sherrill. Must be his wife. Robert 2 Womack, David Mason. Can't read signature. It says 3 David Mason III printed below it. 4 Everything else is blank. 5 Q So quickly, we will go through that list. 6 Did Mr. Womack tell you about the 7 vendetta? Singled out because of a vendetta by County 8 officials? 9 A I don't -- I don't recall that. 10 Q Because this is the Grand Jurors' 11 opportunity to learn if there is specific information -- 12 A Yeah. 13 Q -- that would help Mr. Womack out. 14 A Well, see, at that time, that first phone 15 call, I don't really think I knew him that well to have 16 him mention that much to me. I don't believe he ever 17 mentioned a vendetta, per se. 18 Q Okay. 19 A However, I would have probably said that, 20 you know, from what I have read in the paper and from 21 what I have seen. 22 Q What have you seen? That's the question. 23 I would like to know everything you know. 24 A Just the fact of me being here, for one, 25 as an innocent citizen that hasn't done anything. 1529 1 Q You are an eyewitness. 2 A Eyewitness to what? 3 Q The inconsistencies -- 4 A I read an article in the paper and I wrote 5 an article in the paper. What are you talking about 6 eyewitness? 7 Q To inconsistent statements by Mr. Womack. 8 Did Mr. Womack tell you that how much 9 money was spent on this investigation? 10 A No. I believe I read that in the paper. 11 Q Did Mr. Womack tell -- 12 A One of the articles in there. 13 Q Did Mr. Womack tell you there was no 14 injury or damage? 15 A Let me put it this way. It's possible. I 16 have got so much paperwork. I can't tell you verbatim 17 what I got from him. I believe I read the $100,000 in 18 the paper. I don't think he mentioned it to me. 19 Q Did Mr. Womack tell what you he did with 20 the contaminated soil? 21 A No, I didn't have a clue what he did with 22 it. 23 Was there any contamination in the soil? 24 would be my first question. 25 Q Did you ever ask Mr. Womack if there was 1530 1 any contamination? 2 A Uh, somewhere it came up in the course of 3 conversation. That soil was cold. There was absolutely 4 no contamination in it. 5 Now, whether it was in talking to him 6 or -- I don't know who else I would have talked to. I 7 have talked to several people on this, which escaped me 8 at the time, but -- 9 Q The Grand Jurors need to know if Mr. 10 Womack told you that the soil was cold. 11 A I -- honestly, I don't remember who told 12 me. My assumption was, wherever I got the information, 13 that the soil was cold. And I -- and I feel that was 14 probably correct. The only thing they found the next 15 morning there was -- 16 Q Did you ever ask the County to look at any 17 test results? 18 A Dave, have you ever tried to call the 19 County? You are going to get the same response you get 20 from the DMV. You are going to stand in line for three 21 hours. You are going to get put on hold. You can't ask 22 the City or County anything. 23 This is presently under investigation, we 24 can't discuss it with you, I am sure is the answer I 25 would have gotten. 1531 1 To answer your direct question, no, I did 2 not. 3 Q Did Mr. Womack at any time tell you -- 4 A I didn't feel I had to ask the County 5 anything. 6 Q -- why he was being singled out for 7 prosecution? 8 A I think the first question should be, did 9 I really feel he was being singled out? Was he being 10 singled out? Or was the County just upset over this one 11 issue? 12 You are asking me if I felt there was a 13 vendetta against him. No. I don't -- I don't know. I 14 barely know the man. 15 Q Did he tell you which County officials 16 changed their stories? 17 A No. If he -- if he did, it would have 18 been in some of the printed material I would have 19 forgotten. I don't think it was in any of the printed 20 material. If it was, it just -- I don't do this for a 21 living. 22 Q I am going to ask you something: Do you 23 still believe or do you have actual knowledge questions. 24 Okay? 25 Do you still believe that, regarding the 1532 1 article about Bob Womack removing his own fuel tank in a 2 timely and cost-effective manner, it would seem to me 3 that County officials should give him a trophy? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you still believe, by accomplishing in 6 one day what so-called officials would mandate a full 7 month of construction, endless environmental rules and 8 inspections was a good thing for Mr. Womack to do? 9 A Repeat that one more time. I know it's my 10 article, but... 11 Q Imagine accomplishing in one day what 12 so-called officials would mandate a full month of 13 construction, endless environmental rules and inspections. 14 A Oh, yes, sir. I think it's a wonderful 15 thing. I think these environmental laws have gone way 16 too far. When they start locking down the forest, 17 hurting us innocent people. Smog Check II programs. 18 MTBE in the fuels. All this other garbage we have been 19 forced to put up with in the name of environmentalists, 20 yes. 21 Q Did you -- who told you it would take a 22 full month of construction? 23 A That was my guess. Nobody told me that. 24 Q Who told you it probably would have cost 25 around $400,000? 1533 1 A That was a guess from me. A number from 2 the sky. I am saying Government in general operates so 3 inefficiently. And the bureaucracy is so big, that that 4 may be even conservative. I don't know. 5 Case in point my being here wasting my 6 time and all these good people's time here. 7 Q So you don't know what it would have cost 8 to take out the tank legally? 9 A I don't? Yes. 10 Q But you care -- 11 A Yes. As a taxpayer, I do care. It sounds 12 like we saved an awful lot of money for $80 permit. It 13 sounds to me all that's all the permit. If there was 14 anything done improperly, which I doubt. 15 Q Because of your expert knowledge in tanks 16 or because of Bob Womack? 17 A I am no expert in anything. I am just an 18 incensed taxpayer. 19 Q So is that because of Bob Womack that you 20 don't think anything was done wrong? 21 A No, no, no. You can look in the phone 22 book how many county offices and phone numbers we have. 23 The bureaucracy is incredible. 24 And I also -- also, I do deal with some 25 senators down at the Capitol. And we -- 1534 1 Q We could put those letters in, if you 2 would like. 3 A Yeah. Well, sure. They have been 4 apprised of this. And they were very surprised what is 5 going on in this county. The reason I deal with these 6 people. 7 Q They were very surprised with your version 8 or Bob's version, whatever Bob said was going on in the 9 County, correct? Is that correct? 10 A Well, yeah, Dave. I -- I do know these 11 people and, you know, especially Senator Mountjoy. I 12 spend a lot of time in his office talking to him and all. 13 Q That wasn't the question. 14 The question is, it's your version or 15 Bob's version you were telling to these people, correct? 16 It's not the County's version? 17 A Well, no. That would be -- 18 Q It's not the City's version? 19 A That would be my compilation of what I 20 felt was right from the information I had at the time. 21 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions of 22 Mr. Brown. I appreciate your taking half an afternoon. 23 And freedom of speech is great. But if someone told you 24 inaccurate information, the Grands Jurors need to know. 25 I have a pretty good idea after hearing your testimony. 1535 1 THE WITNESS: Still, Dave, as a citizen and 2 taxpayer, I have a right to put what I want in the 3 newspaper without being harassed like this. This is 4 totally ridiculous. 5 MR. IREY: We were just wondering if Bob Womack 6 told you -- 7 THE WITNESS: Why don't you take a phone call to 8 me? Come out to the house. I will buy you a beer. We 9 don't have to go through all this. My God. 10 So now, from this, if I ever run another 11 article in the paper again, am I going to be called for 12 some witch hunt like this? 13 MR. IREY: You might want -- to the best of my 14 knowledge -- no. I can't assure you of anything, other 15 than -- 16 THE WITNESS: I haven't even had have a traffic 17 ticket, for God's sake. 18 MR. IREY: If I tell you I didn't rob a 19 bank, then that's called an inconsistent statement, if 20 later someone else in this room robbed a bank or I really 21 did rob the bank and someone can prove it. We can put 22 you on to show they are telling inconsistent stories and 23 you made up some story after the fact. 24 Maybe that's what we are using you for. I 25 appreciate your time. It may be very helpful to these 1536 1 people to determine -- 2 THE WITNESS: All right. Folks, I am sorry if I 3 was hard on people. I am a little incensed as a 4 taxpayer. 5 MR. IREY: I am sorry, Mr. Brown. There are 6 questions. 7 THE FOREPERSON: You are not excused. 8 THE WITNESS: I thought you said everything was 9 cool, I could go. 10 Q BY MR. IREY: The Grand Jurors can ask 11 questions, though. 12 A Go ahead, folks. 13 Q I have to read it. 14 Do you feel you know all the facts in this 15 case? 16 A Oh, no. 17 Q Do you feel environmental laws apply to 18 everyone? 19 A Well, of course, I do. 20 Q Do you feel -- 21 A Do I agree with the environmental laws? 22 Q No. I will ask -- 23 A I feel we are being railroaded with all 24 these environmental laws. 25 Q I can ask two questions. Do you feel the 1537 1 environmental laws apply to everyone? 2 A Only by virtue of the fact that they are 3 law. I do not agree with many environmental laws. I 4 think the environmental laws have gotten far too strict 5 with the timber policies and ATV use and RVs. They are 6 trying to shut us down from everything. 7 Q Do you feel the accused's story is -- 8 A Basically correct. 9 Q Do you feel the accused's story is the 10 full truth? 11 A Uh, possibly not. I mean, we are all 12 human. 13 Q Isn't it -- 14 A We all tend to hedge in our favor a little 15 bit. I am not going to... 16 Q Isn't it advisable to get both sides of 17 the story? 18 A One more time? 19 Q Isn't it advisable to get both sides of a 20 story? 21 A Well, other than the -- other than the 22 problem of getting any information from the City or the 23 County, which would be: I'm sorry. We can't discuss 24 this information with you at this time. It's under 25 litigation. 1538 1 Which, no, I did not call the City or 2 County. I bet you 100 bucks that's what I would have got 3 if I called on the telephone. Who are you, Mr. Brown? 4 No, we can't tell you anything. 5 What do you bet, Dave? 6 Q I can't bet. 7 A Ah, come on. Just a little bet of beer. 8 Q In November 1998, that may be the 9 response. 10 A Yeah. 11 Q But this may be public record in the very 12 near future. 13 A Yeah. That's fine. 14 Q Isn't it advisable to get both sides of a 15 story? 16 A In most cases, it is, yes. 17 Q Not in this case? 18 A Well, like I said, I have to repeat again, 19 have you ever tried to get information -- well, you 20 probably have -- out of the City and County as an 21 innocent bystander and taxpayer, it's impossible. 22 Q Do you always believe that everything 23 printed in the newspaper is the absolute truth? 24 A Oh, of course not. Especially most of the 25 stuff written by the newspaper. With the exception of a 1539 1 few articles. 2 Q Do you know what it takes to remove 3 underground storage tank? 4 A Well, yes, I have seen several removed at 5 the phone company. 6 Q Do you -- do you believe in all the laws 7 of the U.S.? 8 A Do I believe in -- tell me that one more 9 time. Do I agree with all the laws? 10 Q Do you believe in all of the laws of the 11 the U.S.? 12 A No. I would have to say there is probably 13 quite a few laws I disagree with. I follow the laws, 14 yes. 15 Q Do you disagree with the underground 16 storage tank rules? 17 A I think some of the laws are too strict 18 for removal of underground storage tanks. 19 Q You don't like MTBE because it gets in the 20 groundwater? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Gasoline has MTBE, correct? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q There is MTBE in Mr. Womack's property, 25 correct? 1540 1 A Is there? 2 Q Did Mr. Womack ever tell you it was 3 contaminated? 4 A The MTBE could have come from the old 5 school bus parking lot at the top of the hill, at the top 6 of Rex Avenue. To my knowledge, that tank being replaced 7 ten years ago was new fiberglass double-walled tank and 8 it was not leaking. 9 Was there any leakage in the tank putting 10 MTBE in the ground? The knowledge I have is no. 11 Number two, why did the State force MTBE 12 on us to begin with? Such a hazard. 13 Q Good letter to Assembly people. 14 A Believe me, I have got lots of them. 15 Q Do you feel your involvement in this 16 matter to the degree you are involved has helped or 17 hindered the criminal justice system? 18 A My intent of putting articles in the paper 19 was to bring public awareness to this and how serious 20 these environmental laws are getting and how ludicrous 21 they are with our tax dollars. 22 Q Do you realize it would only have cost 23 $100 of our tax dollars to do this the right way? 24 A It is done the right way, from what I have 25 seen. He did for $80, so he saved $20. 1541 1 Q Did Mr. Womack put you up to this big show 2 of outrage? 3 A Absolutely not. That's what gets me. 4 This is totally -- I am upset because I am even here. I 5 barely know the man. 6 Q Have you ever pulled an underground 7 storage gas tank? 8 A Never. 9 Q Do you know the laws required in pulling 10 underground storage gas tanks? 11 A I know some. I see them in the white 12 suits, phone company, pulling the tanks out, whatnot. 13 These were old tanks been in the ground 30 years. These 14 weren't new tanks like Bob had. 15 Q What facts do you know about this case, 16 other than from Mr. Womack and the paper? 17 A Well, I mean, I been around here 25 18 years. I have seen the gas station in operation. Very 19 small operation. They couldn't have handled too much 20 fuel. 21 What else do you need to know? 22 Q Do you believe everything you hear from 23 someone you do not know? 24 A I don't believe everything I hear from 25 anybody or everything I read in the papers, Dave. Like I 1542 1 said before. Some facts, I take and I sort them out and 2 I take what I want out of them. What I feel are 3 pertinent and true. 4 Q Pertinent and true? 5 A What seems proper to me. As anybody 6 would, when they are sorting through material. 7 Q Did you ever hear that the old saying, 8 Don't believe everything you read in the papers? 9 A Of course not. In fact, that's -- 10 Q You haven't heard? Or of course you have 11 heard it? 12 A That is just common sense. I mean, I -- I 13 don't know if I have ever read a saying exactly written 14 like that, but I would say that's true with anything in 15 life. Don't believe anything you hear or read 100 16 percent. But there are some things that are true in the 17 paper. 18 Q I don't want to cut you off. 19 A I just left a trailer there. My mind was 20 running, but it went blank. 21 Q If someone you met in the hall gave you 22 information, would you automatically believe the info to 23 be true? 24 A Not necessarily. I would compare it with 25 facts I had mentally or what I had here, the whole file I 1543 1 have on Robert Womack. Anybody is welcome to go through 2 if they want. 3 If I could put some credence from my 4 information, yes, I would probably take it as being 5 credible. 6 Q If I met you at a pizza parlor and I told 7 you that, Can you believe all these tax dollars Womack 8 spent, wasted, because he failed to listen to the City 9 and County when they told him to get a permit? Doesn't 10 that just make you mad? 11 Would you believe me two months ago? I am 12 wondering if it's the first one in the door. 13 A I am trying to figure out what tax dollars 14 he wasted. He spent $80 for a permit, removed the tank. 15 Sounded like a bargain to me. 16 Q I didn't like you, Mr. Brown. I didn't 17 need to meet you except Mr. Womack -- 18 A Come back and at me. What? 19 Q But for Bob Womack pulling a tank 20 illegally, hypothetically -- 21 A Yeah. 22 Q -- would any of this have happened in your 23 mind? 24 A Jesus. But for Mister? 25 Go over that one more time, make sure I 1544 1 get it straight. 2 Q But for Mr. Womack pulling a tank 3 illegally, hypothetically, would any of this have had to 4 have happened? 5 A I don't believe he pulled it illegally, 6 from what I have read in the paper and what from what I 7 talked to Robert about. 8 Q Okay. 9 A You people believe what you want or hang 10 your heads all you want. I believe what I believe. 11 Q Have you ever served on a Grand Jury? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you know how a Grand Jury works? 14 A I don't have a clue. 15 Q Do you believe in the American justice 16 system? 17 A Yeah. For the most part. 18 Q I could probably answer this next 19 question, but: No matter what it costs? 20 A Well, I think we have to use a little 21 common sense in there. Which is hard for a lot of 22 bureaucrats nowadays. 23 Q Mr. Brown, do you think we want to be 24 here? And do you know how our system works? 25 A No, you probably don't want to be here. 1545 1 And really, I -- the intricacies of your business, no, 2 Dave, I don't. Any more than you probably know the 3 intricacies of the phone company. 4 Q Western Electric. 5 A That was a long time ago. 6 Q 1978 and '79. My dad had 33 years. All I 7 know how to do is tear out phone stuff. 8 The next one is not a question. I will 9 read it into the record after you leave. Mr. Brown, if 10 your neighbor came to the City and asked for a permit to 11 do a demolition on your home, would you be upset and 12 would you want the law to protect you? 13 A Well, I think I could probably handle that 14 myself when the tractor came. I don't think that would 15 be a problem. 16 Would I seek legal help? Yes, of course I 17 would when the tractor is driving up. 18 Q Mr. Brown, do you think if people would 19 not have lied here, we would not have to be spending our 20 Government's money today? 21 A So what you are asking me to do is answer 22 the question and say somebody is lying. I don't know. 23 Q It's a hypothetical. 24 A If somebody would not have lied? 25 Q Okay. Your answer -- I understand. I 1546 1 will try to reword it. 2 A Go again. Put these in simple terms, 3 Dave. 4 Q I have to read what is written, Mr. 5 Brown. 6 A Everybody thinks a little different. 7 Q If Bob Womack lied about not being told 8 that he had to get additional permits -- 9 A Yeah. 10 Q -- and Bob Womack specifically chose not 11 to get those permits -- 12 A Would he lose a little credibility with 13 me? 14 Q Yes. 15 A Yes. 16 Q A lot of credibility or just a little? 17 A It just depends. I mean, how -- let's -- 18 I would say there is different types of credibility, 19 going from serious to not so serious. 20 Q What about this? Do you think this is 21 serious? Surreptitiously monitoring people at the 22 counter. 23 A Surreptitiously monitoring people at the 24 counter. What are you talking about? 25 Q Going into a Government building, putting 1547 1 a tape recorder in your pocket, recording the 2 conversations. 3 A I would probably be the first to do 4 something like that, to be honest with you. 5 Q Okay. 6 A You get so much double talk. Especially 7 if you go to the Building Department, you will get one 8 person tell you one thing, you go to another person, they 9 are going to tell you another thing. 10 Although, I will tell you what I would 11 do -- you say surreptitiously. I probably agree with you 12 some. I would take the tape recorder out and set it on 13 the counter. And either you want to talk to me or you 14 don't. 15 Q Okay. Here is the next one. 16 What do you think about people trying to 17 dissuade witnesses from testifying? 18 A Is that serious or not serious? You mean 19 a payoff or -- 20 Q Just tell them you don't know nothing. 21 A Oh, I wouldn't think that that was right. 22 Q Okay. What about if you said, If you are 23 asked, tell them A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H? 24 A Nobody tells me anything, Dave. I don't 25 care what. 1548 1 Q What do you think about that, if someone 2 said, If you are asked, Mr. Brown, make sure you tell 3 them you didn't see me stab the guy. 4 A Number one, if I see somebody stab 5 somebody, I am going be the first to -- 6 Q But if you see somebody pull a tank on the 7 weekend, you might not be? 8 A I didn't see anybody pull a tank. 9 Q Just asked. 10 A If he had a legal permit, what -- what 11 does it matter if he pulled it under halogen lights at 12 midnight? 13 Q Getting closer. Save this for last. 14 If Robert Womack broke the law, that would 15 not change your opinion of enforcing the law? 16 A If Robert Womack broke the law, that would 17 not change my opinion about enforcing the law? Well, I 18 would have a little lower opinion of Robert Womack. 19 Q Do you feel -- 20 A Now how much, it would just depend if it 21 was proven he broke the law. I don't know. Like I say, 22 I don't know the man outside of the three or four faxes 23 and a couple phone calls and a meeting there at the 24 restaurant. 25 Q Do you feel that enforcing the law is a 1549 1 waste of taxpayer's money? 2 A In some cases to this extent, I think it 3 is. I think this is. 4 Q Did Mr. Robert Womack bribe you in any way 5 or encourage you to write articles in the newspaper? 6 A Oh, absolutely none. That article I 7 probably even wrote before I called him on the telephone 8 just because I was so incensed over the County doing 9 this, wasting this money. 10 Q Who is Rick Paul and where does he work? 11 A Rick Paul is a fellow that -- he is active 12 in the smog check, MTBE issues. As an old hot rodder 13 myself, I signed one of his petitions for -- was 14 anti-Smog Check II program. 15 And he and I have -- I hate to use the 16 word -- become friends, but we are acquaintances. And 17 our views parallel each other as far as the Smog Check 18 II, mTBE and all of these programs that are being put out 19 on our vehicles that do nothing but harm the motoring 20 public in California. 21 Q Motoring public. 22 Why is it, since you were so concerned 23 about the issue, that you didn't find out more about the 24 laws concerning underground storage tanks before you 25 wrote the letter to the paper? 1550 1 A Well, because I guess it just seems like 2 the County spends so -- and City spend so much tax 3 dollars and money that could be utilized in better ways, 4 chasing criminals and things, that it seems like such a 5 travesty to spend this much money on something like this. 6 Q How would you feel if you lived next door 7 to this site with your wife and children and now come to 8 find that your water is contaminated because of the way 9 things were done? 10 A Oh, I would -- I would probably be very 11 upset with the Government for putting the MTBE in the 12 fuel, for forcing this on the fuel companies and innocent 13 people. This is forced -- I believe MTBE was forced on 14 us by the EPA. 15 Q I may have already read these. They will 16 be short answers. 17 Do you believe everything you read in the 18 newspaper? 19 A Obviously not. 20 Q Do you have any facts to back up your 21 belief in what Mr. Womack has told you? 22 A I am trying to think of what he could have 23 faxed me. 24 Q I'm sorry? Fax? I don't enunciate very 25 well. 1551 1 A Go over one more time. 2 Q Do you have any facts, F-A-C-T-S, to back 3 up your belief in what Mr. Womack has told you? 4 A No. But I guess just a feeling in my 5 heart when I read the article in the paper and after 6 talking with him on the telephone. 7 Q Do you always believe strangers? 8 A No, I do not. 9 Q You say never? 10 A I don't always believe strangers, no. 11 Some people have more credibility than others. 12 Q The meeting today, what was said? 13 A What meeting today. 14 Q How many meetings have you attended today? 15 A Just this one. 16 Q Okay. Outside -- 17 A Go over the whole meeting. You have to 18 talk to this young lady right here. 19 Q I think maybe I will ask another 20 question. 21 Outside in the hallway, did you discuss 22 anything beyond what we have discussed in here today? 23 A No. I probably just -- we talked about -- 24 I am sure that I used the term witch hunt probably and 25 how ludicrous it was that people that had nothing to do 1552 1 with this case were being called. People that just wrote 2 an article in the paper. I would have said things like 3 that, yes. 4 Q Do you realize that, by not knowing all 5 the facts in this case, you could be swaying the people 6 of Amador County to come to a false conclusion, that you 7 might be falsely swaying people due to your ignorance? 8 A Mmmm... Well, I believe that any 9 intelligent person would probably take what I had to say 10 and evaluate it with other knowledge they have before 11 they would form any thoughts or decisions on it, as I 12 would do if they told me something. 13 I don't arbitrarily believe 100 percent of 14 what people tell me. Nor should other people. But when 15 we are in the course of conversation, I tell people what 16 I think. And they do the same with me. And we each form 17 our own decisions. 18 What more can I say to that? 19 Q If there had been a major explosion and 20 people died as a result when the gas station was 21 demolished, would you feel differently about this 22 situation? 23 A Well, it would be an absolute tragedy, of 24 course. But a tank that was cold -- and I believe I read 25 somewhere that it was tested and -- 1553 1 Q In November. 2 A -- there was no residue. 3 Q You read it in November that it was tested 4 in September, when it was removed in May. 5 A Well, wasn't the tank tested before it was 6 pulled? 7 Q Did Bob tell you that? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Okay? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q You can't ask me questions. I can say: 12 Did Bob tell you the tank was tested before it was 13 pulled? 14 A I don't know, Dave. 15 Q If the tank wasn't tested before it was 16 pulled, would that concern you? 17 A Well, I am sure there are rules and 18 regulations by these tank-pulling companies that they 19 follow. 20 Now, if they had followed the rules and 21 regulations, would be nothing -- it would be an extreme 22 tragedy, as would a broken gas line with a backhoe. 23 Q Do you understand you could have been 24 called to be on the Grand Jury? 25 A Yeah, probably so. 1554 1 Q Do you understand the harm you do from 2 lack of knowledge? 3 I think that's the end of the question. 4 A Well, that's -- I believe, if you are 5 writing an article for people that aren't educated or not 6 intelligent that would follow somebody verbatim, I think, 7 yes, there could be harm done. 8 I think, to a logical, thinking people 9 that think for themselves that can evaluate what I say, 10 throw away what they don't agree with and add them to 11 what facts they know, it's just -- isn't that part of the 12 way that our minds make decisions, by evaluating various 13 things, getting input from various people? 14 I am just one of very many inputs that 15 people should evaluate. Oh, boy. Look at them coming in 16 now. 17 MR. IREY: I haven't figured out the writing yet. 18 Is this yours? 19 Q Okay. What do you do in the area to help 20 Amador County? 21 A Oh, I volunteer at the -- for the Boy 22 Scouts, the Girl Scouts. 23 Q Do you go to the City Council meetings and 24 Board of Supervisor meetings to help the area you live in? 25 A I have been to the Board of Supervisors 1555 1 meetings when they have issues that are things I am 2 interested in. I also go down to the Capitol quite a bit 3 on issues I am interested in, Smog check and MTBE. 4 Q Will you write another article to the 5 paper with the facts when this is over? 6 A Frankly, I about had it with this whole 7 issue, to be honest with you. 8 Q Will you read the Grand Jury transcript 9 when this is over? 10 A Oh, yeah, yeah, I will. Definitely. 11 Q And if you read the Grand Jury transcript 12 when this is over and the facts are inconsistent with 13 what you currently believe, will you consider writing an 14 article? 15 A Yes. Definitely, yes. 16 Q Do you know the people pulling the tank 17 were not licensed in the business? 18 A I don't know anything. I don't even know 19 who pulled the tank or where it went or anything. 20 Q Do you know the people who were pulling 21 the tank were doing so without Workmen's Comp. insurance? 22 A I, again, draw a blank. I mean, that's 23 somebody else's business; not mine. 24 Q This is a hypothetical. I think the last 25 question. 1556 1 GRAND JUROR: Kind of. 2 MR. IREY: Only three more witnesses. 3 This is not a question that I can ask. 4 Q Hypothetical. If you own property next to 5 someone who dumped hazardous waste on their land and it 6 leached underground to your property, destroyed its 7 value, and we citizens have no agencies to control that, 8 would you just shrug your shoulders, say, Oh, well, 9 that's life? 10 A I don't believe anybody in this room 11 would, nor would I. I would be very upset over it. 12 Q What if you had a drinking well on that 13 property? 14 A To repeat my answer, Dave, I would be very 15 upset over it. And as the oil companies should be liable 16 for the MTBE that's leaking into the groundwater. 17 MR. IREY: Again, Mr. Brown, I thank you for your 18 time. I am sure it wasn't much fun. It was 19 interesting. 20 The Foreman has an admonition for you. 21 THE WITNESS: Oh, admonition. Not ammunition? 22 MR. IREY: I hope not. 23 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 24 to any person except as directed by the Court what 25 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 1557 1 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 2 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 3 appearance before the Grand Jury. 4 This admonitions continues unless and 5 until such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury 6 proceeding is made public. Violation of this admonition 7 is punishable as contempt of court. 8 This does not prevent you from discussing 9 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 10 advising with you respect to your appearance before the 11 Grand Jury. 12 THE WITNESS: Now put this in laymen's terms. I 13 mean, can I discuss -- can I mention anything? I mean, 14 what can I mention? What can't I mention? 15 Can I discuss it with my neighbor and say, 16 I went to the Grand Jury today, as long as I don't say 17 what was said in here? No, huh? 18 MR. IREY: You can tell them you came; not what 19 was said. 20 THE WITNESS: Before I sign this, I want you to 21 tell me plainer English. 22 MR. IREY: That's it. 23 THE WITNESS: This doesn't say I can't describe 24 things of a general nature. As long as I don't say what 25 was happening in the -- would I be wrong on that, too? 1558 1 THE FOREPERSON: I cannot answer the question, 2 sir. 3 THE WITNESS: Let me ask a hypothetical 4 question. 5 MR. IREY: You don't have to sign it. 6 THE WITNESS: I want to sign it. But okay. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Would you like me to read it to 8 you again? 9 THE WITNESS: I don't fully understand. You 10 people deal with the legal stuff all the time. 11 Can I go and talk to my wife and say, 12 Dear, we had the trial today, was down there, but such 13 and such. Would that be acceptable? 14 MR. IREY: You can say you were called before the 15 Grand Jury. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 MR. IREY: And until an indictment is returned or 18 not returned, you can't discuss it. 19 THE WITNESS: Any part of it, any aspect 20 whatsoever? 21 MR. IREY: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 MR. IREY: Correct. 24 THE WITNESS: Just as long as I know what I'm 25 signing here. 1559 1 MR. IREY: That's what I interpret it to be. 2 THE WITNESS: What's the date today? 19th? 3 THE FOREPERSON: 18th. 4 GRAND JUROR: Might be the 19th soon. 5 THE WITNESS: Feels like it's the 19th. 6 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you very much. You are 7 free to go. 8 THE WITNESS: All right. 9 MR. IREY: Thanks, Mr. Brown. 10 THE WITNESS: You are entirely welcome. 11 MR. IREY: Thanks for the offer of the beer. 12 Keep your up your good work on MTBE. 13 Jake Strom. 14 THE FOREPERSON: I will swear him in. 15 Mr. Strom, if you would remain standing 16 and raise your right hand. 17 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 18 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 19 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 20 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 21 THE WITNESS: I do. 22 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 23 24 (TIME NOTED: 4:29 P.M.) 25 ---oOo--- 1560 1 JAKE STROM 2 Called as a witness herein by the People, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 4 and testified as follows: 5 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. IREY: 8 Q Mr. Strom, thank you for waiting. I think 9 I just have two or three minutes of questions. Okay? 10 A Sure. 11 Q Could you spell your last name for the 12 court reporter, please. 13 A S-T-R-O-H-M. 14 Q You recently lost a building; is that 15 correct? 16 A Fire? 17 Q Yes. 18 A Yes. 19 Q And discovered underground storage tank, 20 correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And could you give a one-minute synopsis 23 of what you did once you discovered the underground 24 storage tank, please. 25 A Well, I had a contractor there. But what 1561 1 was done, we got ahold of the County, who handles that. 2 And they more or less took over and told us what we had 3 to do. 4 Q Walked you through the process? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Were helpful enough or real helpful? 7 A Real helpful. Done a great -- well, very 8 great job, helped me out. 9 Q Bob Fourt? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Helped you out across the board? 12 A All the way. 13 Q $100 permit? 14 A Well, I think it was $47, and then they're 15 going to bill me the rest because they didn't know what 16 it was. I think that's a starting fee, so to speak. 17 Q And the tank is out of the ground? 18 A Pardon me? 19 Q The tank is now out of the ground? 20 A Gone, yes. 21 Q By permit? 22 A Permit. 23 Q A little bit of issue regarding the 24 groundwater close to Jackson Creek? 25 A Yes. They are checking that today. I 1562 1 think yesterday, they hauled some away to check that. 2 Q Pumped the water into a big tank? 3 A Big 1,500 gallon. 4 Q Didn't pump it into the creek? 5 A Absolutely not. 6 Q Didn't spread it all over the property? 7 A No. 8 Q The reason -- I can't say a reason. My 9 question is, I understand that -- I have asked a lot of 10 questions today. I am O for 2. 11 Did Bob Womack come by at any point while 12 the tank was coming out of the ground, if you remember? 13 A I can't really say. 14 Q Did Bob Womack come by and tell you he has 15 his buddy in Lodi that will take your tank for 800 bucks, 16 if you remember? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q Do you remember anybody coming by and 19 saying, I know a guy in Lodi that can take care of this 20 for you? 21 A Only thing I could answer you for honestly 22 is that $800 is sticking in my mind. I had many things 23 of going on in my mind when that tank was going. 24 Q The tank is one of the issues you were 25 dealing with? 1563 1 A Right. We would have left the sidewalk 2 there normally. Happened to be underneath the sidewalk. 3 Q An old heating oil tank, right? 4 A Yes, for the theater. 5 Q Probably in the teens or '20s? 6 A Probably. I guess it was a heavy duty, 7 thick oil. 8 Q Clunker oil? 9 A Yeah. Like syrup. Heavy duty. 10 Q Took that out, triple rinsed it, hauled it 11 off in a tanker? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q But the $800 sticks in your mind, but you 14 don't remember whether that was Mr. Womack or not? 15 A No, I don't. 16 Q If later this week Mr. White or Mr. Fourt 17 testify that you had told them that Bob Womack came by 18 and said he knew a guy in Lodi, 800 bucks, take care of 19 the tank, could they may be -- could that have happened? 20 A If they say that, I would -- to me, they 21 are both honest men. And maybe they would remember it 22 better than I do because they didn't have as much on 23 their mind. If they said I would say that -- 24 Q But you don't remember? 25 A I don't remember. 1564 1 Q That's fine. People forget things, 2 especially when you were dealing with dozens and dozens 3 of issues. 4 That's pretty much all the questions I 5 have. We were just concerned whether or not you had any 6 specific information about talking to Bob Womack about 7 underground storage tanks. 8 A Not really. 9 Q You know Bob Womack? 10 A Yes, I do. 11 Q But you don't remember conversations? 12 A No, none, as far as that is concerned. 13 Q Okay. 14 A Thank you. 15 MR. IREY: Any of the Members of the Grand Jury 16 can ask a question. I don't know if they are going to 17 have any. Ours was very specific. 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 19 MR. IREY: At this time, the Foreman has what's 20 called an admonition, Mr. Strom. 21 THE FOREPERSON: You can stay seated. 22 You are admonished not to reveal to any 23 person except as directed by the Court what questions 24 were asked or what responses were given or any other 25 matters concerning the -- concerning the nature or 1565 1 subject of the Grand Jury's investigation that you 2 learned during your appearance before the Grand Jury. 3 This admonition continues unless and until 4 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 5 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 6 punishable as contempt of court. 7 This does not prevent you from discussing 8 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 9 advising with you respect to your appearance before the 10 Grand Jury. 11 Sir, if I can get you to date and sign 12 that I read you that? That's exactly what I just read 13 you right there. 14 THE WITNESS: Is this the same thing you read to 15 me? 16 THE FOREPERSON: It sure is. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. Fine. 18 MR. IREY: We have one question, Mr. Strom. This 19 is coming hot off the press. 20 THE WITNESS: Oh, boy. Too late. I already 21 signed the papers. 22 Q BY MR. IREY: Someone else asked -- I am 23 not asking you -- if you were the prosecutor, what 24 question would you ask? I will save that for the next 25 guy. This is the next-to-last question. 1566 1 What was the cost to remove the tank? 2 A I haven't got the bill yet, but the man 3 that did it is around four or $5,000, between four and 4 5,000. 5 Q Plus the extra stuff, whatever happens to 6 be contamination and whatever? 7 A That's the full bill for people that done 8 it out of Nevada City. Robison Timbers, I think is the 9 name. 10 Q If you have had no experience before 11 having to remove underground storage tanks, how did you 12 know enough to go to the County and get the proper 13 disposal permits? 14 A Owned Security Pacific building. You 15 folks know Security Pacific, which is now Hillcrest, 16 whatever they call it, store, Hillcrest something. And 17 also the pawn shop. I don't know if that's the right 18 terminology, the nice big brick building down there. 19 Bank of America had a loan on the property that I owned 20 then. 21 And in those days, I think that -- I know 22 exactly when it was, 1992 and 1993, had this loan. And 23 that was a big thing in those days, was environmental was 24 just getting started. So back -- I think I had $700,000 25 loan on that property. And they were worried of it, 1567 1 being they had the loan on it, they were going to get 2 stuck. They sent the environmental experts up here to 3 make a test to see whether I had oil -- we all knew there 4 was oil tanks underneath there. Known that since I was 5 kid. Pictures are all over the county about the oil 6 tanks. 7 So they sent people up here from 8 Sacramento to make tests. Also, when they did that, they 9 went all through the building for asbestos. Fortunately, 10 we came out clear. 11 So I knew by reading the papers. 12 Nowadays, I know what you are supposed to do with oil 13 tanks, anything like that. But I had a good experience 14 myself, personally. 15 MR. IREY: Thank you. 16 THE FOREPERSON: The same admonition applies to 17 those questions. 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 19 MR. IREY: Bill Admire. 20 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Admire, if you would remain 21 standing, please, and raise your right hand. 22 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 23 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 24 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 25 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 1568 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 3 (TIME NOTED: 4:38 P.M.) 4 ---oOo--- 5 BILL ADMIRE 6 Called as a witness herein by the People, 7 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 8 and testified as follows: 9 10 EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. IREY: 12 Q Mr. Admire, what's your background? 13 A Working background? 14 Q Sure. 15 A Department of Mental Hygiene, California 16 Highway Patrol, California Department of Corrections. 17 Q When did you -- who did you retire from? 18 A I retired from the Highway Patrol after 31 19 years. 20 Q Okay. And you were a patrol sergeant, 21 patrol -- 22 A Officer. 23 Q -- officer. 24 Okay. You retired up here in the Jackson 25 area? 1569 1 A Yes. 2 Q And that's how you met Bob Womack, if you 3 know? 4 A You mean, I met Bob Womack? Yes, I was a 5 patrolman when he I met him, yeah. 6 Q Okay. It's difficult for me to ask a 7 retired officer, but: So when you called Ron Hall from 8 Womack's house or from your house and told Ron Hall no 9 crimes were committed, what was the basis of that phone 10 call? 11 A That's not what I told Ron Hall. 12 Q Okay. What did you tell Ron Hall? 13 A Do you want me to tell you the whole 14 circumstances? 15 Q The Grand Jurors; not me. The Grand 16 Jurors. 17 A Bob Womack called and said that he had a 18 call from Ron Hall from the D.A.'s Office that he had 19 made a violation of a crime for moving a tank. And he 20 wanted to know what the violation was and how much 21 trouble he might be in. So he called me. I have known 22 Bob for a few years. 23 And he came up. And I looked in the books 24 and the sections and I said, if you didn't transport the 25 truck, you have no crime that I can find in the Vehicle 1570 1 Code. The one that moved it could have a crime if there 2 was fuel in the tank. But as far as hauling the tank, if 3 you didn't haul it, there is no Vehicle Code violations. 4 That's what I am familiar with, the Vehicle Code. 5 I called Ron Hall to see what the 6 violations were. And he explained to me that he had not 7 got the correct permit for removing the tank from the 8 ground; not for hauling the tank. But Ron did mention 9 that he wanted to know where the tank was. 10 Q Did Mr. Womack tell you where the tank 11 was? 12 A No. No, he didn't know where it was. 13 Q You and Mr. Womack -- you guys poker 14 buddies? 15 A No. 16 Q You are in his phone book. Are you just 17 acquaintances? 18 A Acquaintances, yes. 19 Q Hunting buddies, something like that? 20 A No. Let's see. I first met Bob Womack at 21 an accident scene in front of his house. That's how I 22 first got acquainted with him. And I own an old Packard. 23 He is into old cars. We started talking about that. I 24 had seen old cars at his place. Just casual 25 conversation. 1571 1 Then a few years pass. And I have seen 2 him probably socially maybe four to five times. We buy 3 each other dinner or breakfast or something, drive the 4 old car. 5 Other than that, he donates to the Highway 6 Patrol Foundation Trust. I hit him up for a donation 7 once in a while. 8 Q You were CHP, just had an old car? 9 A That's the retirees day. The Cops and 10 Rodders. 11 Q First time they put all the old cars 12 together? 13 A Right. I attended that. 14 Q So what -- what do you specifically know 15 about this issue, the illegal removal of the underground 16 storage tank? 17 A Only what Bob told me and what Ron told 18 me. 19 Q Okay. Did Bob tell you he had a permit? 20 A Told me he got a permit from the City to 21 demolish the station. He told me he contacted 22 Cal-Trans -- I don't know if he said the City told him to 23 do that -- because it involved a State Highway. 24 Q Did he tell you Cal-Trans told him to get 25 a permit if he was going to load on the highway? 1572 1 A No. He didn't tell me -- he told me the 2 name of the party he talked to. I don't recall the 3 name. He didn't say anything about a permit or, if he 4 said anything, I don't remember him mentioning it. 5 Q Okay. At any time, did he tell you that 6 the City told him to get a County permit? 7 A He said the City did not indicate that he 8 had to get a County permit when he was talking to the 9 City. 10 Q So he told you that? 11 A Yes, he told me that because of all -- he 12 said he contacted everybody he could. He didn't know he 13 was in trouble until he went to the County to have them 14 inspect the dirt where the tank site was. He knew he had 15 to get a sign-off on whether it was contaminated or not. 16 When he said, I need to have somebody 17 check the soil to see if it's contaminated, they said, 18 Let us know when you remove the tank. We will come check 19 it. He said, The tank is already removed. 20 That's when all the problem come. He said 21 they told him, I guess, he needed a permit to remove the 22 tank. He was not aware of that. 23 Q Are you aware of the Hazardous Waste 24 Control Act? 25 A No. 1573 1 Q Underground Storage Tank Clean-up Act? 2 A No. 3 Q Underground storage tank -- any 4 underground storage tank laws? 5 A No. I worked on the highways; not 6 underground. 7 Q Did Bob Womack tell you that he hauled the 8 tank himself? 9 A No. He said he gave the tank away. He 10 said that, before he demolished the station, he invited 11 anybody that wanted anything that was at the station site 12 to take it, because we was going to take it all to the 13 dump, just going to clear the lot for parking lot for his 14 son's dentist office. 15 Q Did he tell you originally, he said the 16 tank went to Owens Illinois? 17 A No. 18 Q Did he tell you he changed the story to 19 unknown guy drove by late on Saturday and I gave it to 20 him? 21 A Only thing he told me was, he gave it to 22 somebody came by with a trailer. He loaded it on the 23 trailer and took off. 24 Q When you told Mr. Womack you didn't think 25 there was a Vehicle Code violation, did you tell him you 1574 1 don't know there were other violations of the law? 2 A No. I didn't know about other violations. 3 I am not familiar with permits getting tanks out of 4 ground. 5 Q Okay. Has Mr. Womack given you specific 6 information that might help -- either exculpatory or 7 inculpatory, that might help the Grand Jurors make a 8 decision? Did he show you permits? Did he show you 9 photographs? Did he show you receipts to landfills, 10 stuff like that? 11 A Well, I only know that he said he took 12 videos or his wife took a video of the operation, the 13 clean-up operation. 14 Q He told you that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Did he tell you how long that video was? 17 A No. He said it was raining and they shut 18 the video off, I think, sooner than they wanted to, 19 something like that. I don't recall. 20 At the time, I didn't think I would be 21 testifying here. I would have been paying a little more 22 attention. 23 Q Did he tell you that he originally gave 24 the D.A.'s Office a 30-minute tape and later one was 25 seized that was 91 minutes long? 1575 1 A No. 2 Q Have you had a conversation with him in 3 the last couple weeks? 4 A No. 5 Q Did he tell you that he hauled soil off 6 that was contaminated to unknown facilities? 7 A No. 8 Q Did he tell that he has tried to persuade 9 witnesses not to testify truthfully? 10 A No. 11 Q Would your opinion change of him if you 12 knew that? 13 A I think it would change. Because from 14 what I know of him, he seems to be a pretty honest, 15 straightforward fellow. 16 MR. IREY: I thank you for waiting all this time, 17 Mr. Admire. Because we didn't have a chance to brief 18 you, the Grand Jurors can write down questions. I read 19 them into the record. You answer them. Grand Jury 20 Foreman reads you an admonition. I am sorry you had to 21 wait most of the afternoon. We are trying to go as 22 quickly as possible. 23 If there are any questions of any Grand 24 Jurors? 25 I think it's late in the day. You got 1576 1 off. 2 THE WITNESS: Dinner time. 3 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 4 to any person except as directed by the Court what 5 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 6 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 7 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 8 appearance before the Grand Jury. 9 This admonition continues unless and until 10 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 11 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 12 punishable as contempt of court. 13 This does not prevent you from discussing 14 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 15 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 16 Grand Jury. 17 And sir, this is the same admonition I 18 just read to you. If I could get a date and signature 19 there? 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you very much. 21 THE FOREPERSON: You are free to go. 22 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I think they were easy 23 on me. The rest of them were 30 minutes. 24 MR. IREY: Thanks. 25 Mike Womack. 1577 1 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Womack, if you would remain 2 standing and raise your right hand. 3 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 4 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 5 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 6 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 7 THE WITNESS: I do. 8 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 9 10 (TIME NOTED: 4:47 P.M.) 11 ---oOo--- 12 MIKE WOMACK 13 Called as a witness herein by the People, 14 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 15 and testified as follows: 16 17 EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. IREY: 19 Q Hi, Mr. Womack. I am David Irey. This is 20 the criminal Grand Jury. The way the process works is, I 21 ask questions for a few minutes, and then if they choose 22 to ask you additional questions, they write them down 23 then I ask them of you. Okay? 24 A Okay. 25 Q I understand that you might have some 1578 1 specific information on where the underground storage 2 tank went, but you might be reluctant to give it. Is 3 that true? 4 A You are incorrect. 5 Q You don't know anything about the 6 underground storage tank? 7 A Not at all. I told Ron Hall, if I knew 8 where it was, I would have told him. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Because my relationship with my uncle is 11 strained. 12 Q Okay. Based on a tractor sale or 13 something? 14 A No. Based on a divorce. 15 Q A divorce? 16 A Correct. 17 Q Okay. Ron Hall asked you something about 18 a tractor or a purchase of a tractor? 19 A I am not sure what that is all about. 20 Q Because you already paid off that loan? 21 A Yeah. I have a canceled check to prove 22 that. 23 Q Okay. So you haven't heard from anybody 24 that Doug Mondani is the one that hauled the underground 25 storage tank? 1579 1 A No, I have not. 2 Q So you have no specific knowledge that 3 Doug Mondani is the one that hauled the underground 4 storage tank? 5 A Absolutely not. 6 Q You haven't told anybody on this planet 7 that Doug Mondani is the one that hauled the underground 8 storage tank? 9 A I have not. 10 Q Not even to Lodi? 11 A To Lodi? 12 Q Hauled from Amador County to Lodi? 13 A I thought you meant told somebody in 14 Lodi. No. 15 Q Have you had conversations with any of the 16 Womacks regarding the underground storage tank removal? 17 A Not that I can recall, other than the 18 Sunday morning that the tank was hauled off, I do recall 19 saying something to my uncle, What did you do with the 20 tank? And he said he gave it to somebody. 21 The whole reason I stopped Sunday is, they 22 were staring at the ground. I pulled in to see what they 23 were looking at. It was an empty hole. 24 Q They were looking down at the empty hole? 25 A Correct. With water in from the night 1580 1 before, seeing if any oil might seep up from the bottom. 2 Q That's what they were checking? 3 A They were all very pleased the ground was 4 clean and clear. 5 Q When you say "they," who was there, if you 6 remember? 7 A Yeah. There was, my aunt had video 8 camera. I think I waved to it and said Hi. She was 9 filming it for my cousin, Roland, Bob's son, was filming 10 it because he was out of town at the time. 11 Q Okay. 12 A I believe there was my uncle standing 13 there. Mark Sherrill was washing off the sidewalk so the 14 City would be happy. 15 Q With a vac -- 16 A Water trucks. And I believe a fellow by 17 the name of Nick Hernandez was in the truck. But I don't 18 recall if he was standing outside or driving the truck at 19 the time. Mark tried to squirt me a couple times with 20 the hose. 21 Q So you are there five, eight, nine minutes? 22 A I was there longer than that. Because I 23 was asked if I had any fence posts. And I said yeah. 24 And I ran home and grabbed fence posts, brought 'em back. 25 We pushed the fence posts down with the excavator. And I 1581 1 just held onto 'em with my uncle. The excavator pushed 2 them in the ground. We tied up orange fencing. And I 3 went home. 4 Q You were there, left, came back? 5 A Yeah. 6 Q Same people were there? 7 A Yeah. There was a couple people that 8 stopped by to talk to me that don't know my uncle from 9 the church, asked me why I missed church that morning. 10 Q Because you were working? 11 A Well, they were making fun of me. I was, 12 you know, standing there with a shovel in my hand. 13 Q Oh, a Cal -- 14 A Yeah, exactly. 15 They all knew what you meant. 16 Q I apologize to any Member of the Grand 17 Jury. 18 A Basically, it wasn't a very good excuse to 19 miss church that morning. 20 Q You looked at the surface and there wasn't 21 an oil sheen? 22 A There wasn't at all. The ground was 23 clean. That was his major concern. He had taken out the 24 permit to do this, and -- 25 Q He told you that? Or you saw the permit? 1582 1 A No. He told me that. 2 Q He said, I took out a permit to pull the 3 tank? 4 A Yeah, because I was really surprised. The 5 County had given him such problems in the past every time 6 he tried to do something that he got a permit. He saw 7 the City. I said, Well, the City must be easier to work 8 with. 9 Q So he probably didn't tell you that he had 10 been told by the City to get a County permit? 11 A No. 12 Q He probably didn't tell you that the day 13 before, Bill Wolin told him he needed permits? 14 A No. 15 Q He probably didn't tell you, the day 16 before, Nick Hernandez told Mark Sherrill you had to have 17 permits to do this? 18 A No. I was told that the next day he was 19 going to have the County come out and look at the hole 20 and that he had a permit. That's all. 21 Q This is morning during church time? 22 A That was Sunday. Saturday I looked to see 23 the excavator, see what it was doing, and saw my uncle 24 standing there. I had no knowledge, wondered what he was 25 doing there. I had no knowledge if they purchased the 1583 1 land. Sunday I missed church to see what they were 2 doing. 3 Q What do you know about the KRL thing? 4 A It's a corporation. Or actually, it's a 5 partnership. I am sorry. 6 Q Do you remember when Luke gave up his 7 share? 8 A Sometime within the last four years? 9 Q You remember the act? You remember what 10 caused it? 11 A Probably a girl. Similar to my problems, 12 yeah. 13 Q Family feud kind of thing? 14 A Yeah. We start dating somebody and they 15 don't like who we date, we get black-sheeped out once in 16 a while. 17 Q Sign over your partnership back to the 18 general partners? 19 A I am the black sheep now. 20 Q So you are going to make a comeback? 21 A I have done it three or four times. I 22 couldn't know. 23 Q Okay. So then you put things in, put the 24 ribbon around, took over. Any other conversations 25 regarding the tank? 1584 1 A No. I had doughnuts. They had doughnuts 2 up there. We saw the -- a couple of the Supervisors 3 pulled across the parking lot and waved. We all laughed, 4 called upon one of them the Governor. That's -- I can't 5 remember the guy's name. He is the Spanish fellow. 6 Q Escamilla? 7 A Yes, Rich. 8 And another Supervisor in the car. We all 9 laughed, said, There is the Governor. 10 I went and talked to my aunt. She asked 11 me how my daughters were doing. My relationship with my 12 wife had been strained. She wanted to know how that was 13 going on. It was family talk. Not a lot of specifics 14 about what was going on. This is not an unusual thing 15 for my family to do. 16 Q To buy land and do stuff with it? 17 A Been doing it since I was a kid, yeah. 18 Q So was your Aunt June videotaping from 19 across the street? 20 A She was standing at the dentist's office 21 above the ground. That's not uncommon here either. I 22 have pictures and albums of us driving tractors when we 23 were three years old. 24 Q Before and after routine? 25 A Mm-hmm. 1585 1 Q You don't remember talking to anybody 2 about Mondani, huh? 3 A The only comments that I have made at all 4 were, anybody with half a brain -- you know, you don't 5 have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who hauled 6 the tank away. And I am going to leave it at that. 7 Q But the Grand Jurors are going to ask -- 8 A They can ask what they want. I am not a 9 rocket scientist. I don't know. I wasn't there. I 10 didn't see the tank hauled away. 11 Q You have been told Robert Womack hauled it 12 away? 13 A He gave the tank away, is what I was told. 14 Q Have you ever been told that Robert Womack 15 drove the tank away? 16 A No. I don't think he could. I don't know 17 what size the gas tank is, but he doesn't even have a 18 pickup. I don't know how he would haul it away. 19 Q If Robert Womack borrowed a truck -- I am 20 sorry. Re-ask that same question. 21 Have you ever been told by anybody that 22 Robert Womack hauled the tank away? 23 A I have not. 24 Q Would it surprise that you Robert Womack 25 hauled the tank away? 1586 1 A Yeah, yes. Because I am not sure he knows 2 how to drive a semi truck. I don't think he can drive a 3 semi truck. I have never seen him drive one. 4 Q Okay. So if not Robert Womack, was it -- 5 and we are not rocket scientists, who else might it have 6 been that hauled the tank away? 7 A I wouldn't have a clue. I really 8 wouldn't. I wasn't there that morning. I showed up. 9 There was a hole in the ground. 10 Q It wouldn't take a rocket scientist, but 11 you don't know who? 12 A No. 13 Q And you haven't been told who? 14 A If I had been told and I knew where it 15 was, I would have called you. I would have been right in 16 there. 17 Q It's reasonable to be over day one. 18 A Not only that. I have certain reasons to 19 get back at him. 20 Q Okay. 21 A Believe me, if I could help you, I would. 22 Q Thank you, Mr. Womack, for your honesty, 23 sincerity and waiting this afternoon. 24 A No problem. 25 Q If you learn anything in the future, we 1587 1 would be happy to know. 2 A You bet. I will. 3 MR. IREY: If any member of the Grand Jury has 4 any questions at this time, I would be happy to read them 5 into the record. 6 Q Was June Womack videotaping on Sunday the 7 entire time you were there? 8 A I can't answer that. It seemed every time 9 I looked up, she had the camera going. But I do remember 10 a couple times going over and she got a doughnut for me 11 and a drink. So she, obviously, couldn't be videotaping 12 and doing that at the same time. 13 Q Have you seen the video? 14 A No. 15 Q Have you ever been told they taped over 16 the video? 17 A No. 18 Q Would it surprise you that they taped over 19 the video? 20 A No. 21 Q But you haven't been told that they taped 22 over the video? 23 A No. I have not talked to any family 24 members probably just shortly after that event. 25 Q Until you saw Kim just -- 1588 1 A Right. This afternoon. In fact, that's 2 the first time I have seen my cousin in probably eight 3 months. 4 Q You Roland's age or Kim's age? 5 A I am in between Roland and Kim. 6 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions of 7 Mr. Womack at this time. 8 Again, we appreciate your coming in and 9 waiting. Thank you. 10 Admonition? 11 THE FOREPERSON: Yeah. 12 THE WITNESS: Pardon? 13 THE FOREPERSON: Go ahead. Remain seated for a 14 minute, if you would, please. 15 Q BY MR. IREY: Do you know what time you 16 were there on Sunday? 17 A Ask one of the Grand Jurors what time 18 church starts. 19 GRAND JUROR: Depends what church. 20 THE FOREPERSON: I don't think -- 21 MR. IREY: I think that's legit. 22 GRAND JUROR: 10:00. 23 THE WITNESS: I am going to guess I was there at 24 9:00 approximately. 25 Q BY MR. IREY: Until? 1589 1 A And I know it wasn't noon. My family is 2 in the habit of all going to -- I did not go to lunch 3 with anybody that day. It was sometime between 9:00 and 4 prior to noon. I am going to guess 11:00. 5 Q Okay. Do you feel that Robert Womack 6 usually is a law-abiding person and/or does he tend to do 7 things the way he wants? 8 A Do I have to answer that? 9 Q Yes. 10 A My uncle would be characterized as 11 somewhat of the type of men that built this town. If it 12 wasn't for people like my uncle, things would stay pretty 13 rat-tat and get kind of rundown and crummy. He looks at 14 something. You see it one way. He sees a gold mine. He 15 will step in and build things and do what it takes and 16 make things necessary. 17 For instance, Dr. Minton's office across 18 from Coast to Coast was an old, rundown building that 19 basically would have been destroyed. If you drive by and 20 see it now, it's my cousin's dentist office. It 21 complements the community. 22 Is he a law-abiding citizen? Ride with 23 him in the car some time. Fifty miles an hour does not 24 exist on his speedometer. 25 Does that answer it? 1590 1 Q Is that across the board, that type of 2 consideration of laws? 3 A No. 4 MR. IREY: Any other questions of the Grand 5 Jurors? 6 Mr. Foreman. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. You are admonished not to 8 reveal to any person except as directed by the Court what 9 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 10 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 11 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 12 appearance before the Grand Jury. 13 This admonition continues unless and until 14 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 15 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 16 punishable as contempt of Court. 17 This does not prevent you from discussing 18 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 19 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 20 Grand Jury. 21 Mr. Womack, this is the exact same 22 admonition I just read to you. Could you date it and 23 sign it, please. 24 Thank you very much. You are free to go. 25 MR. IREY: I would like to pass on some 1591 1 information that is important that is not going to make 2 you very happy. Sorry. 3 Mr. Mondani drove back from Nevada. I 4 think he is going to be eight to twelve minutes. 5 GRAND JUROR: We have heard that one before. 6 MR. IREY: You have heard that one before or you 7 have heard drove back from Nevada? 8 GRAND JUROR: Fast driving. 9 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Mondani, you can remain 10 standing, please, and raise your right hand. 11 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 12 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 13 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 14 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 15 THE WITNESS: I do. 16 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 17 18 (TIME NOTED: 5:01 P.M.) 19 ---oOo--- 20 DOUG MONDANI 21 Called as a witness herein by the People, 22 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 23 and testified as follows: 24 // 25 // 1592 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. IREY: 3 Q Mr. Mondani, could you spell your last 4 name for the court reporter and the Grand Jurors, please. 5 A M-O-N-D-A-N-I. 6 Q You can have a seat, if you want. 7 Mr. Mondani, what's the worst thing you 8 have said about Mr. Bob Womack in the last two weeks? 9 A Nothing. 10 Q So if someone told me that you said Bob 11 Womack is the biggest drug dealer in Amador County, that 12 that would be false? 13 A I -- I have no reason to call him drug 14 dealers or nothing. 15 Q Did you make that statement in the last 16 two weeks to anybody? 17 A Not to my knowledge. 18 Q Okay. You are under oath. You understand 19 that, right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q So think about that carefully. My source 22 is pretty good. It's a District Attorney's Office 23 investigator. 24 Have you told anybody in the last two 25 weeks that Mr. Bob Womack is the biggest drug dealer in 1593 1 Amador County? However, if that statement causes you 2 great concern and some of that concern has to do with 3 your safety, I am absolutely willing to let you talk to 4 me about that before you answer that question today. But 5 if you said it, ask me if we can continue that part of 6 this examination to a later date, if it's about your 7 safety. If you didn't say it, you didn't say it. If you 8 said it, think about whether or not you can just answer 9 it and say, Heck, yeah, I said it. Or I need to think 10 about it. 11 A I probably called everybody in the county 12 that, too. It's a sad way to be, but I probably have. I 13 will be honest with you. 14 Q You probably said that about Bob Womack? 15 A I probably said that about myself. And I 16 know I don't. 17 Q My question is -- 18 A I know your question. 19 Q And the answer to the question is? 20 A I probably did say it. I will be honest 21 with you. 22 Q But you don't have specific knowledge? 23 A No. 24 Q It's not like you said he said, Here, buy 25 drugs from me? 1594 1 A No way. I would not say that. 2 Q It's not like Mr. Womack said that to you? 3 A No. 4 Q I heard this other interesting rumor. I 5 heard -- I can't tell what you I heard. 6 Have you hauled an underground storage 7 tank for Bob Womack in the last six months? 8 A No. 9 Q You are positive? 10 A I am positive. 11 Q That would be false? 12 A That's a false statement. 13 Q No chance? 14 A No chance. 15 Q You didn't haul it down to Lodi? 16 A I had nothing do with hauling any tanks, 17 other than I hauled an excavator in there and I hauled an 18 excavator out. 19 Q You hauled Wolin's excavator in on Friday? 20 A And out on Sunday night or Monday 21 morning. That's the only trucking I did on that site for 22 Wolin or Womack, whoever it was for. Womack paid me. 23 Q He paid you cash? 24 A I think he gave me a check. Sometimes he 25 pays me cash, sometimes checks. 1595 1 Q He paid you the day you brought it in a 2 hundred and a quarter? 3 A I am pretty sure that's what it was. 4 Q Two hours or something? 5 A Matter of fact, he jewed me. He paid me 6 $100 bill. It was -- because I was going to get hundred 7 and a quarter. He handed me $100. Fair enough. I 8 brought it from the sawmill down. 9 Q And on the way back? 10 A The same price. 11 Q You took it back to the sawmill? 12 A I am positive that's where it went. 13 Q Any time that weekend did you go over to 14 Sherrill's property and look at the tank? 15 A I don't know where the tank went. No. I 16 was busy. Never went back to the job site. 17 Q Do you have any specific information about 18 the underground storage tank that weekend? 19 A Nothing. 20 Q Nothing at all? 21 A Nothing. 22 Q What about later after the reward was 23 offered? Do you have anything? 24 A Nothing. I was no part of that tank or 25 nothing, other than there were two moves in and out. 1596 1 Q Has Mr. Womack talked to you before you 2 came to testify today? 3 A Nothing. 4 Q When was the last time you talked to Mr. 5 Womack? 6 A Maybe a week after I did the job. 7 Q So if someone testified already or 8 testifies down the road you are the guy that hauled the 9 tank to Lodi, they would be lying? 10 A 100 percent. 11 Q And you have no idea who hauled the tank? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you have any idea where the waste soil 14 went? 15 A No. As I said, I brought the tank in and 16 I took -- I brought the excavator in, the excavator out. 17 And I was off that job site. I had nothing more to do. 18 I think it was -- I don't even know what month, date it 19 was. I never even went back in my books and looked it 20 up. Because my truck runs busy and I don't have time to 21 go set and look at jobs. 22 Q In the last two days, you have been in 23 Nevada twice? 24 A I was there tonight. I was in Bridgeport 25 yesterday. 1597 1 Q You get cattle and bring them back before 2 the snow? 3 A Right. 4 Q That's part of one of the things do you? 5 A I haul cattle and heavy equipment. 6 Q Lowbed and cattle? 7 A Right. 8 Q Is there anything that you have heard that 9 would be of interest to the Grand Jury about what 10 happened to the underground storage tank? 11 A I have no idea. So what -- you know, I 12 can hear coffee shop talk. 13 Q Okay. 14 A And my ears -- let's face it. Maybe they 15 look like Volkswagens with doors open. I do not pay any 16 attention to what I hear. That's none of my business. 17 My job was to haul that excavator in and out. That was 18 it. 19 Q What time did you haul it out on Sunday, 20 if you remember? 21 A I couldn't -- it could have been on a 22 Monday morning. I am not positive if it was Sunday or 23 Monday. I know it was exactly 12:00 on Friday 24 afternoon. I know that. It was right around noontime or 25 12:00 or 12:30. But when I took it out, I don't know if 1598 1 I took it out on Sunday or a Monday morning. I know it 2 had to be back there for... 3 Q They were using it at Georgia Pacific? 4 A Right. 5 Q Wolin and Sons was using it? 6 A Right. 7 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions of 8 this witness. If anybody Member of the Grand Jury has a 9 question, I would be happy to ask it of Mr. Mondani. 10 Q Did you work for Wolin and Sons on 11 Saturday, May 2nd? 12 A I would have -- 13 Q Or who hired you to move his equipment to 14 the site at 505 Sutter? 15 A Where is 505 Sutter? Is that -- 16 Q Old gas station. 17 A Okay. I imagine Womack phoned me. 18 Q Womack called you? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q He says, I talked to Bill? 21 A Just I have moved equipment for Wolin and 22 Womack before. 23 Q Womack calls and says, Get the excavator? 24 A And have it back there Monday morning. 25 Q Did you talk to Bill at all? 1599 1 A No. Because I know every time, whenever 2 Bob phones me or Mr. Womack phones, he has made 3 arrangements with the Wolin construction company. 4 Q So you never talked to Bill about this 5 excavator at all? 6 A I don't think I did. You know, I mean, I 7 haul 10, 15 loads a day sometimes. To know exactly -- I 8 wouldn't even know what date I hauled it unless I went 9 back in my book. 10 Q Piece of equipment, huge piece of 11 equipment there? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q You have a book? 14 A I have a book in my truck. I can go get 15 that and give it to you people and show you how many 16 loads, where I haul for Wolin. Which I don't think it's 17 necessary. 18 Q You could just give a copy of May 2nd and 19 May 3rd and 4th to Ron Hall. That would be plenty. 20 A I can do that. 21 Q Thanks a lot. 22 Why did Bob Womack pay you for the job if 23 it was Wolin's equipment? 24 A Because there is a 15 percent tailing 25 charge that -- handling charge that goes through Wolin's 1600 1 office. And when I have taken pay, work for Wolin, if I 2 charge $65 an hour, he puts a 15 percent surcharge on my 3 bill. And there is a couple people that always hire me 4 to get away from that 15 percent. 5 Q Bob is one of them? 6 A Bob is one. I don't care. Makes no 7 difference to me. 8 Q I have got my next question, which is: 9 Who gave you the order to move it to 505 Sutter? 10 A Bob Womack. 11 Q I think there will be just a couple more 12 questions. 13 Did Bob Womack ever tell you he is the one 14 that hauled the tank away from the gas station? 15 A I never heard nothing, as I told you, 16 about the gas tank. 17 Q Was the haul in and out a permit load? 18 A Yes. And I got my blanket permit. I can 19 bring that to Mr. Hall. 20 Q So who got the permit? You have a blanket 21 permit? 22 A I have a blanket permit that covers State 23 of California 100 mile radius from my mailing address. 24 And that's within -- that's for 100 -- 110,000 bonus 25 green, which is under 12 foot and bonus green is 110,750. 1601 1 Q Did you ask Wolin permission to pick up 2 the equipment? 3 A As I said, Wolin had made -- when Mr. 4 Womack always phoned me, I knew that it had been agreed 5 or I would never haul. 6 Q How did the arrangement work between 7 Womack and Wolin that you knew it would be all right to 8 move equipment without permission from Wolin? 9 A That's the way it's always been over the 10 years. I have hauled for him for 25 years or 20 years 11 for Mr. Wolin, Wolin Construction. 12 Q For Mr. Wolin? 13 A Yes. 14 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions from the 15 Grand Jurors? 16 At this time, the Foreman has what's 17 called an admonition for you, Mr. Mondani. Thanks for 18 waiting. 19 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 20 to any person, except as directed by the Court, what 21 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 22 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 23 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 24 appearance before the Grand Jury. 25 This admonition continues unless and until 1602 1 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 2 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 3 punishable as contempt of court. 4 This does not prevent you from discussing 5 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 6 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 7 Grand Jury. 8 And sir, this is the exact same admonition 9 I read to you. Could I get a signature and date, 10 please. The 18th. 11 Thank you very much. You are free to go. 12 MR. IREY: Thanks. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Admonish them, then we 14 will go off the -- 15 GRAND JUROR: I had a question to ask about a 16 witness. 17 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Let me -- can we do that 18 off the record? 19 GRAND JUROR: Okay. 20 THE FOREPERSON: Let's -- 21 MR. IREY: We are listening, Mr. Foreman. 22 THE FOREPERSON: I am trying to -- you have a 23 question about a witness? 24 GRAND JUROR: No. Possibly a new witness. 25 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 1603 1 GRAND JUROR: A further witness. 2 THE FOREPERSON: We can go off the record to 3 discuss that. 4 MR. IREY: You have done that in the past? 5 I will step out. 6 THE FOREPERSON: I will read the admonishment and 7 then we will go off the record. 8 Grand Jurors are admonished that they are 9 not to form or express any opinions about this case or 10 discuss it among themselves until the Grand Jury receives 11 the case for deliberation. In addition, no inspection of 12 evidence should be conducted without the permission of 13 the Foreperson and on the advice of the prosecuting 14 attorney. 15 A violation of this rule could result in a 16 charge of contempt against the Grand Juror who would 17 investigate or view any matters with regard to this case 18 without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 19 And we are adjourned until 9:00 a.m. 20 tomorrow. And we are off the record. 21 22 (Whereupon, the proceedings recessed at 5:16 p.m.) 23 24 ---oOo--- 25 1604 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ) ss. 4 COUNTY OF TUOLUMNE ) 5 6 I, JAN L. BENEDETTI, CSR, hereby certify that I 7 was duly appointed and qualified to take the foregoing 8 matter; 9 That acting as such reporter, I took down in 10 stenotype notes the testimony given and proceedings 11 had; 12 That I thereafter transcribed said shorthand 13 notes into typewritten longhand, the above and 14 foregoing pages being a full, true and correct 15 transcription of the testimony given and proceedings 16 had. 17 18 19 20 21 22 _____________________________ 23 JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG 24 25 1605 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25