IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF AMADOR ---oOo--- The People of the State of California) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) No. 98-0767 ) ROBERT ROLAND WOMACK, DAVID STERLING ) MASON III and MARK SHERRILL, ) Defendants. ) _____________________________________) PROCEEDINGS HELD BEFORE THE GRAND JURY NOVEMBER 16, 1998 VOLUME III APPEARANCES: For the People: DAVID J. IREY Deputy District Attorney Reported by: JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG, CSR No. 4643 598 1 ---oOo--- 2 WITNESS INDEX Page 3 STEVE BUCKLEY Examination by Mr. Irey 603 4 LOU BROLINE 5 Examination by Mr. Irey 664 6 PHIL JOSES Examination by Mr. Irey 672 7 LUKE WOMACK 8 Examination by Mr. Irey 686 9 FRED GRAVES Examination by Mr. Irey 831 10 BART GILLMAN 11 Examination by Mr. Irey 839 12 JOHN HENNEY Examination by Mr. Irey 849 13 JEFF TAYLOR 14 Examination by Mr. Irey 886 15 RANDY CUNHA Examination by Mr. Irey 916 16 17 ---oOo--- 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 599 1 E X H I B I T S 2 Exhibit No. Description Ref. 3 7 Photograph 725 4 8 Photograph 726 5 17 Copy of Check 800 6 19 Photograph 722 7 20 Photograph 721 8 21 Photograph 797 9 22 Photograph 857 10 25 Photograph 715 11 34 Work Plan - Buckley 633 12 36 Reward Sticker 805 13 41 Photograph 835 14 43 Oil Equipment Service Records 622 15 44 Check 638 16 45 Document re Lincoln Navigator 804 17 46 Document re Lincoln Town Car 804 18 47 Reward Sticker 805 19 48 Business Cards 806 20 49 Document re Jaguar 809 21 50 List of Property 700 22 51 Photograph 728 23 52 Photograph 728 24 53 Photograph 729 25 55 Five Photographs 712 600 1 56 Phone Records 810 2 58 Voluntary Withdrawal from 696 Partnership 3 59 Voluntary Withdrawal from 757 4 .Partnership 5 60 Voluntary Withdrawal from 760 Partnership 6 61 1991 County Permit 221 7 63 Check Register 822 8 64 Two checks to Womack 898 9 65 Jeff Taylor's File on House 915 10 ---oOo--- 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 600 1 JACKSON, CALIF., MONDAY, NOVEMBER 16, 1998, 9:30 A.M. 2 BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF AMADOR COUNTY 3 ---oOo--- 4 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 5 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Here. 6 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) Here. 7 (Redacted.) 8 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 9 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 10 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Here. 11 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 12 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Here. 13 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 14 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Here. 15 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 16 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXXX: Here. 17 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 18 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Here. 19 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 20 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Present. 21 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 22 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 23 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 24 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Here. 25 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 601 1 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 2 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 3 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 4 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 5 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 6 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 7 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 8 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 9 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Here. 10 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 11 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Here. 12 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 13 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 14 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 15 THE FOREPERSON: Here. 16 MR. IREY: Before I call the next witnesses, we 17 had a question late last week, where a Grand Jury Member 18 wanted to know if the Grand Jury could bring in 19 additional witnesses or request that we bring in 20 additional witnesses. That's within your power. 21 And I can leave at some point and you guys 22 can let me know whether or not there is other people you 23 want to bring in. 24 As I told you in the beginning, if you 25 make a determination at the end -- the indictment is only 602 1 a proposed indictment. If you find that there were other 2 violations of the law that you would like us to allege, 3 we can add those. If you find one or two of the people 4 on there didn't commit one or more of the violations that 5 we have alleged, that's pretty much what your job is. 6 You are an investigatory body. 7 And as long as you want to stay with this 8 or look into other violations of the law, I will do 9 whatever is within my power to bring those witnesses 10 before this body and ask the questions and have you ask 11 questions of those people. I wanted to start with that. 12 Our first witness is Steve Buckley. 13 Do we want more light? Is this enough 14 light? 15 THE FOREPERSON: Good morning, Mr. Buckley. 16 If you would remain standing, please. 17 Raise your right hand. 18 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 19 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 20 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 21 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 22 THE WITNESS: I do. 23 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may sit down. 24 (TIME NOTED: 9:33 A.M.) 25 ---oOo--- 603 1 STEVE BUCKLEY 2 Called as a witness herein by the People, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 4 and testified as follows: 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. IREY: 7 Q Could you spell your last name for the 8 court reporter and Grand Jurors. 9 A B-U-C-K-L-E-Y. 10 Q Mr. Buckley, who is your current employer? 11 A Calaveras County. 12 Q And what capacity are you so employed? 13 A I am an engineer with the Building 14 Department. 15 Q The way this courtroom is set up, it kind 16 of forces you to look at me; but, if possible, the Grand 17 Jury. Thanks. It's a little tricky with the way this 18 courtroom is set up. 19 Prior to that, who was your employer? 20 A Geotechnical Research and Development in 21 Sutter Creek. 22 Q For how many years were you employed 23 there? 24 A Approximately four years. 25 Q And what capacity were you employed? 604 1 A I was a project manager. It's an 2 environmental consulting firm. 3 Q What type of environmental consulting? 4 A Difficult to say. In a small community 5 like this, we do a little bit of everything. 6 GRAND JUROR: All the doors are open over here. 7 MR. IREY: Beautiful. But he was sworn in. 8 THE FOREPERSON: Yes, he was. 9 Q BY MR. IREY: Go ahead. Now you have let 10 the cat out of the bag, Mr. Buckley. Go ahead. It was a 11 door open joke. Sorry. 12 Pretty much everything? 13 A In a small community like this, 14 environmental firms tend to pick up whatever comes in the 15 door. At GRD, we did mining EIR work, on site septic 16 systems, environmental work, water quality issues, 17 underground tank consulting. 18 Q Prior to GRD, who was your employer? 19 A The County of Amador. 20 Q In what capacity were you employed there? 21 A As an inspector with the Environmental 22 Health Department. 23 Q And what type -- rephrase the question. 24 What was your primary -- what were your 25 primary duties working for Amador County Environmental 605 1 Health? 2 A The County is set up such that each 3 inspector has a geographical district. In that district 4 we covered everything from septic system inspection to 5 food facilities, pools, that kind of thing. 6 In addition, each inspector was given a 7 primary program to run. The program I had was the 8 underground tank program. 9 Q Okay. And do you know what your date of 10 hire was? 11 Month of hire? 12 A I don't. I believe it was May or June of 13 1992. '91. 14 Q 1991 Or 1992? 15 A I apologize. It was 1991. 16 Q Okay. Thank you. 17 Are you familiar with the site 505 Sutter 18 Street? 19 A Yes. 20 Q In the City of Jackson? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Were you familiar with that site in 1991? 23 A Yes, I was. 24 Q Why were you familiar with that site in 25 1991? 606 1 A About the same time I was hired with the 2 County, they removed underground storage tanks from the 3 site. 4 Q "They" being whom? 5 A The property owner, Dave Mason, had hired 6 a consulting firm to come in and remove some tanks from 7 the site. 8 Q Okay. Last week you met with Bob Fourt, 9 correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And he provided you with some 12 documentation? 13 A Yes. I called Bob after my meeting with 14 you and asked him to supply me with some of my 15 correspondence regarding the -- regarding the site. 16 Q Okay. And Mr. Fourt did provide with you 17 some of your correspondence? 18 A Yes, I picked some up last Friday. 19 Q You did not bring that with you today? 20 A I did not. 21 Q But just before court today, I asked you 22 to please keep that copy forever, correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And I asked to you make a copy and turn it 25 in to Ron Hall and myself, correct? 607 1 A Yes. 2 Q So the documents you reviewed are under 3 the umbrella of -- what did you ask Bob Fourt for? 4 A Knowing that I was growing to be here 5 today answering some questions, and knowing my mind and 6 its weak memory, I asked Bob to get me a copy of my 7 correspondence regarding this project, so that I can 8 refresh myself and get some of the sequences down as far 9 as what happened. 10 Q And he tried to get that for you, correct? 11 A He got me most everything. A copy of 12 documents that I received is similar to what you have got 13 there and reviewed with me this morning. 14 Q When you say what I have here, it's a 15 green binder -- I am not going to mark it; it's a green 16 binder -- because then I lose my only copy -- with 17 stickers at the bottom, 505 AEHD, pages 1 through 445? 18 A That's the one, yes. 19 Q Okay. And you said that Mr. Fourt 20 provided you with your correspondence, but not the 21 responsive correspondence from an individual who pulls 22 underground storage tanks? 23 I will rephrase the question. 24 A Thank you. 25 Q You said that he provided you with letters 608 1 you mailed? 2 A Exactly. 3 Q But not letters you received back from the 4 other consultants? 5 A That's right. 6 Q So when you reviewed this binder briefly 7 this morning, it showed you back and forth, correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q In 1991, were you present when the 10 underground storage tanks were pulled from 505 Sutter, if 11 you remember? 12 A Yes, I believe I was there. I was not 13 there in an official capacity per se. At that point in 14 time, as I mentioned, I was a recent hire with the 15 County. And Tim Hall, an inspector with the County, was 16 running the underground tank program. 17 I was there simply to observe and learn. 18 I was there part of the time. 19 Q Okay. And the tank came out. Do you 20 recall why the tank came out of the ground? 21 A I don't remember the rationale for 22 removing that tank. There were other tanks there at the 23 site they didn't take out. 24 Q Do you remember if it was an emergency 25 underground storage tank pull? 609 1 A I don't believe it was. I think it was 2 simply a tank they weren't using. 3 Q Do you remember if it had anything to do 4 with a tank tightness test failing? 5 A I don't remember that to be the case, 6 although it may have been. 7 Q But you are saying May or June is when you 8 came to the County, 1991? 9 A Yes, yes. 10 Q So prior to that, who was the person who 11 handled the underground storage tanks for Amador County? 12 A That would be Tim Hall. 13 Q Okay. And prior to that? 14 A Willy Shite. 15 Q Tank tightness test. If you remember, 16 they have a range of allowable leak rate; is that 17 correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q It's usually .05 gallons per hour? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Anything above that would be considered? 22 A That's right. There is allowable leak 23 rate due to thermal expansion of the gasoline, that kind 24 of thing. Anything over a certain threshold amount they 25 consider to be a leak in the tank itself or product 610 1 piping. 2 Q And the business owner is required to do? 3 A If they find that a tank test has failed, 4 they are required to notify the local agency, which would 5 have been the Environmental Health Department, and then 6 investigate that leak. 7 Q Okay. I am going to show you a document 8 dated May 22nd, 1991. Bottom right corner is a sticker. 9 A Mm-hmm. 10 Q Could you read into the record -- 11 A 505 AEHD 288. 12 Q Do you know this business at the top of 13 the form? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 Q And what's that business? 16 A It's an Integrity Tank Testing Systems, 17 Inc. 18 Q And the letter is addressed to whom? 19 A Mr. Keith Tallia of Oil Equipment Service. 20 Q Do you know the individual who is a 21 certified tester? 22 A I haven't met him personally, but I have 23 seen this form come into the Health Department quite 24 often. 25 Q Does it have tank results listed on the 611 1 letter? 2 A Yes, it does. 3 Q What are the tank results? 4 A The tank results are negative .128. 5 Q So is that a failure? 6 A Yes, it is. 7 Q If you know? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q When you were working on site in 1991, was 10 the site contaminated? 11 A I believe there was -- after the removal 12 of the tank, they took soils and groundwater samples, 13 which came back positive for petroleum contaminants. 14 Q Part of your job between 1991 and 1993 was 15 to try to bring that site into compliance with various -- 16 A Yes. The Amador County Health Department 17 was the local implementing agency for the tank program. 18 Our job was to oversee any investigation or remediation 19 of the site and help the property owner to come back into 20 compliance with the State mandates for petroleum 21 contamination. 22 Q And that would be both clean-up and 23 existing tanks being in compliance? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Do you know if there was 612 1 overexcavation of contaminated soil at that location? 2 A I believe there was. 3 Q Do you know if it was treated off site? 4 A I believe it was hauled to a landfill for 5 final disposal. 6 Q It was eventually hauled to Forward? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And that was partially from your memory? 9 Or is that from reviewing your documents that Bob Fourt 10 gave you? 11 A Part of reviewing my documents. 12 Q Okay. Besides the Jackson Exxon Station 13 on 505 Sutter -- I will rephrase the question. 14 During your time between 1991 and 1993, 15 did you meet with Dave Mason at the 505 site, if you 16 recall? 17 A I don't believe I ever met at that 18 particular site, although we did meet out on some of his 19 other facilities. 20 Q When you say "some of his other 21 facilities," he has more than one facility? 22 A Yes. I believe he has five different 23 sites throughout Amador County or had at that point in 24 time. 25 Q Okay. And you said you had met him at a 613 1 different site. Do you remember which site that was? 2 A It was the one on Highway 88 by Bob's -- 3 I'm sorry. By the -- it's there on Highway 88. 4 GRAND JUROR: Amador Equipment? 5 THE WITNESS: Sorry? 6 GRAND JUROR: Amador Equipment? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, down where Ridge Road ties 8 back into Highway 88. 9 Q BY MR. IREY: Okay. Did you discuss 10 compliance issues with Mr. Mason? 11 A We did. I met him there to talk about 12 some specific issues at that site. And while there, I 13 took the opportunity to talk to him about all of the 14 sites. 15 Mr. Mason had -- how I can say it? He was 16 slow to come into compliance with some of these issues 17 that I was working with him on. So we had a talk there 18 at the site. And I asked him to fulfill a number of 19 commitments. 20 Q Of earlier commitments? 21 A I believe I sent him a letter delineating 22 each site specifically. You have got a copy of it in 23 your binder, if I remember correctly. 24 Q If you could find it for the Grand Jury? 25 And again, the bottom right corner has the page number. 614 1 A I will. 2 Q Thank you. 3 When you say Dave Mason, it's Dave Mason 4 III? 5 A Yes. The letter that I have here is dated 6 May 26, 1993 identified as 505 AEHD 190 in this letter, 7 I went through each of Dave's sites and cited each of the 8 problems that he had with each site and asking him to 9 come into compliance with these. 10 Q Did he have problems at the Jackson Exxon 11 in 1993? 12 A Yes, he did. I have here that the 13 facility had not yet been investigated for groundwater, 14 which related to the monitoring requirements for his 15 tanking system still in use. 16 In addition, the remediation of the tank 17 removal site had not yet been completed. 18 Q That's the 1991 remediation? 19 A Yes. To the satisfaction of the 20 Department. 21 And I commented that it was significant 22 contamination still existing at the site and continued 23 investigation, remediation was required. 24 Q You had sent that letter to Mr. Mason 25 before you met with Mr. Mason, if you recall? 615 1 A As I recall, yes, I did. And then after 2 he received that, I believe we set up a meeting at one of 3 his sites to discuss these issues and come up with some 4 sort of a schedule. 5 Q So May of '93 was two years after the tank 6 removal? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And two years after the tank removal, your 9 term was "significant contamination" still exists at this 10 site and continued investigation and remediation is 11 required? 12 A Yes. 13 Q If you could quickly skim through the 14 binder here and find the tank removal permit issued by 15 the County, that would be helpful to me, because you are 16 more familiar with what that document would look like. 17 A Okay. 18 Q Oh, here is a document, page -- what 19 number, please? 20 A 505 AEHD 287. 21 Q It's labeled Unauthorized Release? 22 A Mm-hmm. 23 Q If you could answer yes for the court 24 reporter, it would be great. 25 A Yes. 616 1 Q Or no, if the answer is no. Don't just 2 always answer yes? 3 A It actually does say that here. 4 Q What is this form? 5 A This is a form supplied by the State Water 6 Resources Control Board that's required to be filled out 7 by the property owner or the local agency, which, in this 8 case again, would be the Health Department. Any time a 9 tank system has leaked contamination into the ground 10 or -- surface or groundwater. 11 Q And who receives a copy of this 12 Unauthorized Release form? 13 A It goes to the State Regional Water 14 Quality Control Board. 15 Q Does the owner of a site also get a copy 16 of it? 17 A Yes. In most cases, the owner fills it 18 out. In cases where the owner hasn't gotten around to it 19 or feels they can't fill out this form correctly, then 20 the County will fill it out for them and take care of 21 notification. 22 Q Who is listed as the responsible party? 23 A Mason Oil Company. 24 Q Who is listed as the operator of the tank? 25 A Operator Dave Mason. 617 1 Q And what's the phone number listed? 2 A 209 274-2470. 3 Q At the bottom, in the Comment section, 4 could you read the comment into the record, please. 5 A Sure. "Probable excavation, disposal, but 6 possibly other course of action will be required. Soil 7 and water samples taken by Condor Technologies, the PHG." 8 Q And is there somewhere a removal permit? 9 A This is it right here, I believe. 10 Q Okay. When you say this is it right here, 11 what's the page number? 12 A 505 AEHD 284. 13 Q And it's called Permit to Close? 14 A Yeah. It is the County permit application 15 for underground storage tank permit to close. 16 Q Who is listed as the owner? 17 A Dave Mason. 18 Q And -- 19 A I'm sorry. I was looking at the owner's 20 signature. The owner, Mason Oil Company. 21 Q The facility? 22 A Jackson Exxon Station. 23 Q It's a County permit application? 24 A Yes. This is all we had at the time, a 25 one-page form. 618 1 Q Okay. So there is a -- a closure fee, 2 correct? 3 A Mm-hmm. 4 Q Yes? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And the owner's signature? 7 A Dave Mason. 8 Q Dated? 9 A May 20th, 1991. 10 Q Okay. So in 1991, Mr. Mason took a permit 11 to close out from the County? 12 A Yes. 13 Q For 505 Sutter Street? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. And then there was contamination 16 which you termed, in May of '93, significant, correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you mailed that to Mr. Mason? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Later in 1993 or about the same time in 21 1993, you met with Mr. Mason regarding several of his 22 sites? 23 A Right. 24 Q I am sorry. I am bouncing up and down. 25 Was he out of compliance at other sites in 619 1 1993? 2 A Yes, he was. 3 Q Similar types of violations? If you could 4 look at your letter. 5 A The violations -- does anyone remember the 6 page number? 7 Q They can't answer your questions, Mr. 8 Buckley. 9 A Sorry. 10 Q I mean, I am sure they could. They are 11 not supposed to. 12 A Okay. 13 Q May 26th, 1993? 14 A Mm-hmm, yes. 15 Q Two-page letter? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. 18 A And I went through each site and 19 delineated for him which were the most significant issues 20 at each of those sites. 21 Generally speaking, all of the other sites 22 were in some varying form of noncompliance. And it 23 related to the method for testing the tanks for leaks. 24 Just previous to writing him this letter, 25 the State had implemented a new law, which stated that 620 1 tanks that were in high groundwater areas had to be 2 monitored for leaks in a more stringent fashion. And 3 that's what this letter regarded, those facilities that 4 Dave had that were not in compliance with the new law. 5 Q Okay. And then the -- there is a response 6 letter June 14th, 1993? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And that's from whom? 9 A Mason Oil Company. 10 Q Signed by? 11 A Dave Mason III. David S. Mason III. 12 Q As? 13 A CEO. 14 Q Jackson Exxon. He talks about his 15 response to the compliance issues, correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did you receive this correspondence, if 18 you recall? 19 A That's a fair question. I do remember 20 receiving the correspondence, although I don't remember 21 the specifics of what it says. 22 Q And you haven't been given a copy because 23 Mr. Fourt only gave you copies of letters you sent? 24 A That's right. 25 Q If you could take a moment to read page 2, 621 1 the first paragraph. 2 A Okay. 3 Q Okay. And he talks about a leak, correct? 4 A Yes. And I am assuming he is referring to 5 the 1991 tank that was removed. 6 Q Okay. Can you go ahead and read that 7 paragraph into the record, please? 8 A Okay. Paragraph starts out: 9 "Jackson Exxon: Our existing tank at this 10 station is a double-walled tank. My understanding 11 is that the groundwater investigation and the 12 monitoring system is not required for double-wall 13 tanks. The leaking tank was removed in 1991 as soon 14 as the leak was discovered. The immediate area was 15 cleaned up. 16 "We were hoping to receive reimbursements 17 from those costs from the UST Superfund. We are 18 talking -- in talking with Mr. Keith Tallia, he 19 feels we should be able to set a schedule for the 20 completion of the clean-up by the end of the year. 21 "Hopefully, we will have a response from 22 the Superfund by then. We can proceed with the 23 remediation you refer to." 24 Q So at that point, is it your opinion, as 25 someone working at the County, at that point, Mr. Mason 622 1 realized there was additional remediation required? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And that the tank had leaked in 1991? 4 A Yes. 5 Q You left in what -- in 1993? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Do you recall whether or not you worked 8 with Mr. Mason -- 9 A I apologize. I left in early 1994. 10 Q Okay. At any time, if you recall, in 11 1993, did Mr. Mason take additional steps toward 12 remediating the contamination at that site? 13 A I don't believe he did. 14 Q Okay. This has been marked Grand Jury 15 Exhibit No. 43. You saw this document for the first time 16 today, correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And it's a document with -- if you could 19 describe the document for the record, please. 20 A Sure. It looks like billing sheets, 21 handwritten itemized costs, from Oil Equipment Service. 22 Q Do you know the business Oil Equipment 23 Service? 24 A Yes, I do. 25 Q Do you know the owner? 623 1 A Yes. 2 Q His name? 3 A Mr. Keith Tallia. 4 Q Okay. And this is from about what -- what 5 year does this appear to be a billing from? Or years? 6 A The billing starts on 5/8/91 with a tank 7 test and ends 6/3/93 with preparation of the invoice. 8 Q Okay. And the listed total under 9 material? 10 A 14,300 -- Yeah. Let me get my decimal 11 points right here. $1,433.33. 12 Q And labor? 13 A 38,000 -- No. Again, that's wrong. 14 $3,585.01. 15 Q And other? 16 A And other. $35,620.01. 17 Q So around $40,000? 18 A Yes. 19 Q So that's the removal and the consultants 20 and the disposal of soil? 21 A This may also include some soil borings 22 that were conducted at the site. I haven't seen them 23 itemized here, but I believe that Keith Tallia organized 24 that through Spectrum Drilling. 25 Q Okay. So there was quite a bit of work in 624 1 1991, correct? 2 A Right. 3 Q And then was there any other work 4 documented? 5 A No. 6 Q Until what year? 7 A 1993, when he prepared an invoice. 8 Q Okay. So in 1991, a lot of work was done 9 at site according to Mr. Tallia. You can't find any 10 documentation for '92 work nor '93 work? 11 A Right. 12 Q And you don't recall any work in '92 or 13 '93? 14 A Again, there were some soil borings that 15 were done. I don't remember the year those were 16 drilled. It might have been '92 that some soil borings 17 were installed at the site. 18 Q And in between early '94 when you left the 19 County and early '98, did you have any other dealings 20 with Mr. Dave Mason? 21 A No. 22 Q And in early 1998, were you contacted by 23 Mr. Dave Mason? Or mid 1998? 24 A Yes, mid 1998. 25 Q Okay. And if you could give a narrative 625 1 to the Grand Jurors what your recollection of that 2 contact is and what steps -- and further meetings you had 3 with Mr. Mason after that initial contact. 4 A Would you like me -- rephrase that. Does 5 this only refer to David Mason? 6 Q I will rephrase the question. I will ask 7 a different question. The question withdrawn, please. 8 Were you contacted -- between 1991 and May 9 of 1998, had you ever had a conversation with Mr. Robert 10 Womack? 11 A No. 12 Q In May of 1998, did you have any 13 conversations with Mr. Robert Womack? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. Could you describe to the Grand 16 Jurors who contacted whom and what the conversation -- 17 how the conversation went with Mr. Womack. 18 A We were contacted -- we, Geotechnical 19 Research and Development, where I was working, was 20 contacted by Bob Fourt of the Amador County Health 21 Department shortly after the tanks from the site were 22 removed. 23 And Bob asked us to get in touch with Mr. 24 Womack, who was also trying to reach us at that time to 25 obtain some water samples and soil samples from the tank 626 1 pit at the site. 2 Q When you say contacted us, did he contact 3 you specifically? Or you just heard that Bob Womack 4 contacted your company? 5 A Bob Womack had been leaving messages 6 asking me to call him during this time period. 7 Q Do you have voice mail? Or does he leave 8 it with the support staff person? 9 A No. He left it with the secretary or 10 whoever was in the office at the time. 11 Q Does your office keep as a normal course 12 of business carbons of those phone calls? 13 A Yes, they had them. But oftentimes, we 14 wrote phone messages on scraps of paper. And I threw 15 those away as fast as I made those phone calls. Simply 16 because a clean desk is a happy desk. 17 Q I have a very sad desk, Mr. Buckley. 18 Mr. Buckley, what -- in case some day we 19 determine we need these files, what are the files called 20 at GRD? Are they site specific? Address specific? 21 Parcel number specific? How are these files kept in the 22 normal course of business at GRD? 23 A Files are logged in by job number, 24 starting with the last two digits of the year and then 25 the next number of job. They also have description -- 627 1 descriptive term. In this case, it would have been Mason 2 UST or something along those lines. 3 Q So 98-something Mason UST? 4 A Exactly. 5 Q And you have what has been marked Grand 6 Jury Exhibit 34 in front of you. 7 A Okay. 8 Q Does that anywhere on it have the code 9 that you were talking about? 10 A No. It does not. 11 Q Okay. So back to the Mr. Womack calls. 12 He leaves you several messages? 13 A Yes. Bob Fourt actually was the one that 14 got in touch with me, simply because he was better at 15 hunting me down. He explained to me the problem at the 16 site, that tanks had been removed, apparently over the 17 weekend; no soil sampling conducted at that time. Bob 18 mentioned to me that -- 19 Q Bob Fourt? 20 A Bob Fourt. 21 Q If you could say the last name, there are 22 several Bobs in this case, please. Thank you. 23 A Thank you. 24 Bob Fourt had indicated that another lab 25 had been out or a lab had been out to take a water sample 628 1 and that he wanted a soil sample taken from the tank pit. 2 Q Okay. And so at that point, had you 3 spoken with Mr. Robert Womack? 4 A I hadn't. In fact, I did not speak with 5 him until I got out onto the site to collect the sample. 6 Q Do you know what day that was or not? 7 A It was a Wednesday, a few days after the 8 tank was removed. 9 Q So the weekend -- 10 A I don't remember the exact date. 11 Q So the Wednesday after the weekend the 12 tank was removed? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. And you and anyone else from your 15 company were on site? 16 A It was myself. 17 Q Do you remember anybody from -- who was on 18 site, if you recall? 19 A Bob Fourt, Mr. Womack, and I believe it 20 was Mark Sherrill who was operating the excavator. 21 Q Okay. So three individuals other than 22 yourself? 23 A Exactly. 24 Q Were you able to obtain a sample that day? 25 A We were trying to get a water -- I'm 629 1 sorry. 2 We were trying to get a soil sample from 3 underneath the original tank location, although there was 4 a lot of groundwater in the tank pit and pea gravel made 5 it hard to dig down. 6 Q When you call it groundwater, what's the 7 difference for non-technical -- simple, non-technical 8 explanation. How do you know it wasn't rain water? 9 A Mmmm... Good question. 10 Q So there was water in the tank pit? 11 A There was water in the tank pit. And 12 actually, what I heard from Mr. Womack on first looking 13 at the site was that the water in the pit was caused from 14 excessive rain over the weekend which had drained into 15 the tank pit. 16 However, my experience with the site from 17 working with the County indicated that groundwater was 18 very shallow there. And my assumption was that, yes, 19 surface water may have gotten in there; but if it had 20 gotten in, then it probably would have drained out very 21 quickly if there wasn't a groundwater table somewhere 22 close. 23 Q Because of the fracture -- I can't 24 testify. Because of the type of substrate? 25 A Right. Because of the fractured schist 630 1 underneath the site. 2 Q What's your background prior to coming to 3 a Amador County? 4 A Student. 5 Q What school? 6 A Chico State University. I was a student 7 of cell biology, minored in chemistry. 8 Q And then you came directly to Amador 9 County? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Then you went directly to GRD? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. So you went to take a sample of the 14 soil. And could you explain to the Members of the Grand 15 Jury what happened. 16 A Sure. The excavator was digging down 17 through the pea gravel, hit the original bottom of the 18 tank excavation. And this great plume of hydrocarbons 19 came up through the water and spread out over the surface 20 of the groundwater there. 21 It was at that point -- go ahead. 22 Q Three questions. Did you say -- did you 23 make some comment to Mr. Womack? 24 A Yeah. It was a great display of the 25 various densities in water versus hydrocarbons. That 631 1 stuff shot to the surface and spread out all over the 2 surface of the groundwater. We wowed. 3 Q Everybody wowed? 4 A Everybody wowed. 5 Q Including Mr. Womack? 6 Including Mr. Womack and Mr. Fourt? Mr. 7 Sherrill? 8 A He may have. He was on the backhoe. I 9 didn't hear him. 10 Q Hydrocarbons being? 11 A Gasoline products. It was at that point 12 we decided not to try and take a sample of the soil 13 underneath the tank, but simply grab a sample of the 14 hydrocarbons on the surface. It was Mr. Fourt that made 15 that suggestion, and I agreed with him. 16 Q Because much -- 17 A Obviously, there was contamination there. 18 Q So there was no -- 19 A There was no need. And it wouldn't have 20 done us any good to take a sample out of the soil at the 21 bottom of the pit. 22 Q Something about difficulty taking the 23 sample weigh into the decision-making? 24 A Sure. We would have had to remove all the 25 pea gravel in the hole. And from the way it looked, the 632 1 excavation was quite large. If you have ever worked with 2 pea gravel, as soon as you remove some here, it tends to 3 slump back in. 4 Q Did it appear that they had recently 5 brought in pea gravel? Or was this existing from -- if 6 you know, from the original 1992 installation? 7 A Somewhere along the line, they removed the 8 whole site, the building that was there. All of the 9 structures were gone. And it was pea gravel spread all 10 over the site. My guess is that it was new pea gravel 11 that had been brought in. 12 Q So when the backhoe touches the rock, 13 that's when this -- what did you call it? 14 A Yeah, yes. It's my feeling that there was 15 some layer of soil or old pea gravel at the bottom of the 16 excavation. And once we dug through that, hydrocarbons 17 were released from whatever was lying below that layer. 18 And they force their way up through the water and spread 19 out over the surface. 20 Q So you took a sample of surface, correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And then you took it to a lab? Or did 23 someone come and pick it up? 24 A I believe it was on overnight turnaround 25 at the lab. I probably had one of our techs run it down 633 1 to Sacramento. 2 Q And do you have Grand Jury Exhibit 34? 3 Are those test results in your -- what's that called? A 4 work plan? 5 A This was a work plan, yes. Yes, they are. 6 Q Was it positive for hydrocarbons? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And was it also positive for MTBE? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And any of the BTEX? 11 A Yeah. The four -- each of the four BTEX 12 were here. 13 Q What does BTEX stand for? 14 A BTEX is the aromatic portion of gasoline. 15 It's the cancer-causing parts, as far as I understand 16 it. And BTEX is benzene, toluene, ethyl benzene and 17 xylene. 18 We commonly test for those with each and 19 every underground tank project we work on. Those are the 20 components of concern. If they show up, then we know we 21 have got a problem that we need to deal with. 22 Q Are the BTEX and the MTBE hydrophilic or 23 hydrophobic? 24 A Hydrophobic. 25 Q They don't like -- that's why they come to 634 1 the surface? 2 A Yes. They have lighter density than 3 water. They are hydrophobic, so they separate out like 4 oil and vinegar. 5 Q MTBE likes water more? 6 A It disassociates into the water completely 7 and can cause a real problem with groundwater quality. 8 It's also carcinogen. 9 Q If the gasoline stays in my hand in this 10 manila envelope, MTBE could be over where the Grand 11 Jurors are, correct? Is that your understanding? 12 A Yes. 13 Q It moves -- 14 A Gasoline will also dissolve into 15 groundwater and be transported through the groundwater; 16 but, for the most part, it floats. MTBE will dissolve 17 completely into water, my understanding, and is 18 ubiquitous with water, will move everywhere with it. 19 Q Did GRD have a contract? Or just show up 20 and take samples? 21 A We had a verbal agreement, which I believe 22 I related to him when I showed up on the site that 23 morning. 24 Q And that was cost, plus sample? Or was 25 that all-inclusive? 635 1 A I believe I gave him a flat rate of $500, 2 if I remember correctly. 3 Q That's your sample, the tech driving to a 4 lab, and then the lab running the sample for you? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And then does your Grand Jury Exhibit 34 7 indicate anywhere that it was a 24-hour turnaround? 8 A Yes. On the lab form, it says, "Sample 9 received on 5/7/98 and reported" -- sorry. It says, 10 "Sampled on 5/6/98 and received 5/7/98 and reported on 11 5/8/98." 12 Q So 5/6/98 would have been the day you took 13 the sample? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And then after that taking of the 16 sample -- oh, Mr. Womack said, Wow! Did he say anything 17 else? You talked about whether or not it was gasoline. 18 Did he talk about how you knew it was gasoline? Did he 19 ask you any questions? 20 A I don't think so. As far as talking about 21 particular issues regarding to the site, I don't have any 22 recollection about -- about what was going to happen or 23 what we were going to do. I think we maybe talked about 24 the weather. 25 Q Okay. And did Mr. Womack give you his 636 1 version of what had happened the weekend before while you 2 were on site that day? 3 A Yes, he did. 4 Q What was his version, if you recall? 5 A His version was -- as I understand it, was 6 that he had received a permit to demolish the station 7 from the City of Jackson, and the City had specifically 8 asked him to do it on the weekend to reduce congestion 9 and traffic, I believe is what he said. And then now he 10 was apparently in trouble with the County and he didn't 11 seem to understand the reason why. 12 Q Did you try to explain that to him? 13 A I don't believe I did. 14 Q Wearing a consultant's hat is a little 15 different than wearing a regulator's hat, isn't it? 16 A In cases where there is controversy 17 between the client and the County and a member of the 18 County is actually there, I keep my mouth shut. 19 Q Okay. Did he talk about the destination 20 of the tank, if you recall? 21 A I don't recall. 22 Q Okay. Did he talk about the destination 23 of the piping? 24 A No. 25 Q Did he talk about the destination of any 637 1 overexcavated soil? 2 A No. 3 Q Okay. Before we get to the next part, 4 which would be the chats with Mr. Mason, are there rules 5 regulating underground storage tanks in the State of 6 California? 7 A Are there rules? 8 Q Yes. 9 A Yes, there are. 10 Q And do those include permits to pull 11 underground storage tanks? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Requirements regarding piping? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Requirements regarding soil? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Requirements regarding testing soil? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Triple rinsing of piping and underground 20 storage tanks? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Fire Code issues, if you know? Dry ice 23 issues? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Yes to dry ice? 638 1 A Yes. 2 Q So you met Mr. Womack on site. He didn't 3 tell you much other than he had -- the City told him to 4 do this; and he said, Wow! Then he left for the day, 5 gave you 500 bucks? 6 A I believe I was the first one to leave the 7 site out of the group of us that were there. I had a 8 sample I needed to get to Sacramento that afternoon. As 9 soon as I collected the sample, I was down the road. 10 Q Okay. This has been marked Grand Jury 11 Exhibit 44. Do you recognize the handwriting on this 12 check? 13 A No. 14 Q Okay. Is that your handwriting? 15 A No, it's not mine. 16 Q Was that check handed to you on 5/6/98, if 17 you recall? 18 A I believe it was. I seem to remember the 19 KRL Partnership at the top of the check. 20 Q Okay. So did you have any other 21 conversations with Mr. Womack after the one at the site? 22 A I believe I did. I believe I spoke with 23 him later that week to give him a verbal result of the 24 water sample. And -- 25 Q So you called him on the phone? 639 1 A Yes. I believe so. 2 Q Did you fax him the results? 3 A I don't believe so. I believe I faxed 4 results and a quick report to Bob Fourt at the County. 5 Q But do you remember speaking with Mr. 6 Womack? If you don't remember, you don't remember. 7 A I -- I believe I did, although the 8 specifics of the conversations escape me. I have a 9 recollection that I called him, which was my habit to 10 call the client when I received results. 11 Q You start, Bad news for you, Mr. Womack? 12 No problem, Mr. Womack? How does that conversation work? 13 A I use good news, bad news. Good news is, 14 your results are back. Bad news is, you have got hits. 15 Q You don't remember what his response was? 16 A I don't remember. 17 Q Your business was in Sutter Creek? 18 A Yes. 19 Q There won't be a long distance call to 20 Sutter Creek, correct? 21 A No. 22 Q Then you passed that information on to Mr. 23 Fourt? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And your file at GRD, would it indicate: 640 1 Called client, told of results? 2 A No, it wouldn't. 3 Q After that, did you have any other 4 conversations with Mr. Womack? 5 A I did not. 6 Q Did you have any conversations with Mr. 7 Mason? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 Q Could you describe your contact with Mr. 10 Mason to the Members of the Grand Jury, please. 11 A Sure. Mr. Mason -- I believe it was the 12 following week after we took the water samples. Mr. 13 Mason called repeatedly to my office trying to get ahold 14 of me. During that month and really for during the 15 summer part, I am out of the office more than I am in. 16 So it was hard for him to get ahold of me. 17 He finally came down and met with myself 18 and the owner of the company to discuss ways of 19 investigating the site. 20 Q A scheduled meeting? Or he just showed up 21 at work? 22 A I believe we scheduled the meeting. 23 Q Okay. And the topic or the conversation 24 was regarding the clean-up issues? 25 A Regarding clean-up issues. Mr. Mason was 641 1 conveying to us that he really wanted to get the site 2 cleaned up properly. He felt a mistake had been made 3 along the way somewhere, in procedural -- procedurally. 4 And from here on out, he wanted things done absolutely 5 correct and completed as quickly as possible. 6 Q Okay. Did you have any conversation 7 regarding the underground storage tank removal, the 8 piping, the soil, any of those things? 9 A We talked about it briefly. 10 Q And please, for the Members of the Grand 11 Jury, the best of your recollection, could you pass on 12 that discussion. 13 A As I remember it, Mr. Mason essentially 14 reiterated what I had heard from Mr. Womack previously; 15 that the City of Jackson had issued a permit for 16 demolition of the site. They had asked that it be done 17 on a weekend. Bob Womack was apparently handling the 18 demolition of the site as part of his obligations for 19 escrow, purchasing of site. 20 And somewhere along the line, things went 21 badly awry. I believe Mr. Mason thought that there was a 22 lack of communication between the County and the City as 23 far as removal of the tanks. 24 Q You told me earlier today though that you 25 thought that something was peculiar about Mr. Mason's 642 1 version of the story that he provided to you. Do you 2 recall what that was? Something about how he described 3 Mr. Womack. 4 I will rephrase the question. 5 A Thank you. 6 Q Did you think it was unusual with the way 7 Mr. Mason placed blame or failed to place blame on Mr. 8 Womack? 9 A I was surprised, in thinking about the 10 story that Dave Mason told us, that he did not blame Mr. 11 Womack for yanking the tanks illegally. I guess I looked 12 at it from my perspective. If I had been Dave Mason and 13 someone was trying to purchase property that I owned and 14 came in and removed the tanks and made a big mess, I 15 would have pointed my finger and said: That wasn't done 16 right. And he is the one that was in charge of doing it 17 that way. 18 And Dave never said that, which I thought 19 was slightly odd. 20 Q This is the same green binder. And it's 21 page number what? 22 A 505. AEHD-436. 23 Q And at the top, what kind of document is 24 it? 25 A County Permit Application for underground 643 1 storage tank closure. 2 Q So it's a County permit? 3 A Mm-hmm. 4 Q For what site? 5 A Jackson Exxon. 6 Q Dated what date? 7 A July 19, 1988. 8 Q And signed by? 9 A David S. Mason III. 10 Q Okay. Did Mr. Mason when he met with you 11 in 1998 and was chatting with you and your boss -- named 12 whom? 13 A Mike Flynn. 14 Q Did he tell you that he had bid in 15 April -- received a bid in April from Keith Tallia to 16 remove the underground storage tank? 17 A No, he did not. 18 Q So he didn't tell you, for $5,500, he 19 could have done it the right way? 20 A No. 21 Q You are sure of that? I don't know the 22 answer. I am just asking if you are sure he didn't 23 describe it. 24 A I am reasonably sure. I may be a bit 25 confused because I was -- I had knowledge of that bid. I 644 1 don't remember Dave Mason -- no. In fact, I know he 2 didn't. He didn't bring it up. 3 Q You had knowledge of that bid from Mr. 4 Fourt? 5 A From Keith Tallia. We were part of that 6 bid from Keith to do the consulting portion of that 7 removal. 8 Q So Mr. Tallia is contacted by a business 9 owner. 10 She can't read your head. 11 A Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. 12 Q And then Mr. Tallia contacts 13 subcontractors? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And you were one of the subcontractors? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And then you give him a price? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And he says, Too high. Come down a little 20 bit. Or how does that work? 21 A He never said that. 22 Q Would there be a file on that? 23 A Yes. 24 Q That GRD was contacted by Mr. Keith 25 Tallia? 645 1 A Yes. 2 Q What would that be called? 3 A Same numbering as our previous files, the 4 last two digits of the year first. In the descriptive 5 name would have been something like Tallia Mason UST. 6 Something along those lines. 7 Q Are bids accepted and bids not accepted 8 kept in different places at GRD? 9 A No. They are all tossed in the same 10 place, into the same filing cabinets. 11 We bid an awful lot of projects with Keith 12 Tallia. Within the three or four counties in this area, 13 Keith used us at consultants because we were close, we 14 knew the regulators. It was easier for us to do the work 15 than having him bring in someone from the outside. 16 Some of the bids I worked up for Keith 17 never made it out of my computer. I would write up the 18 bid on my computer. I would fax it to him straight from 19 my computer. And some of them never made it into files. 20 Q So there is going to be file, and then 21 there's going to be a computer? 22 A Right. I am reasonably certain that I did 23 make up a file for this project, though, because I was 24 interested in it. I knew about the history of the site. 25 I was reasonably certain we were going to have some 646 1 contamination out there. 2 From a consultant's perspective, that's 3 good news. 4 Q More work? 5 A More work. 6 Q So you bid that job. 7 Did you bid a West Point job at the same 8 time possibly for Mr. Mason also? 9 A For Mr. Mason? 10 Q For Mr. Tallia doing work for Mr. Mason. 11 If you recall. 12 A We did some work for Mr. Tallia in West 13 Point, although I don't believe it was for Dave Mason. 14 Often, Mr. Tallia never put who his client 15 was, simply said, Fax me a cost proposal for this many 16 tanks in this town. So often we weren't privy to who his 17 client was. 18 Q That's a document faxed to you and then 19 you would fax back? 20 A That's right. That's right. 21 Q Okay. So was Mr. Mason -- did Mr. Mason 22 give any more descriptive terms with how he was being 23 treated by the regulators at that time? 24 A Yeah, he indicated that he was really 25 under the hammer for the way the tanks were removed. And 647 1 he was asking us to help him to make things go as 2 smoothly as possible from that point forward, working 3 with the County and the various agencies, with the State, 4 to try and get this investigation going, get the site 5 cleaned up, get the investigation closed so that he could 6 close escrow on the property. 7 Q That was the driving force? 8 A That was the driving force. 9 Q He needed to close escrow with a clean 10 letter? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And then you left GRD? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So you don't know as of this date if any 15 work has been done on the work plan? 16 A Prior to leaving GRD, I wrote a work plan, 17 this document, Grand Jury Exhibit 34, and submitted it to 18 the State Regional Water Quality Control Board for their 19 review and approval. 20 Shortly after that, I left the employment 21 of GRD. 22 Q And now you are with Calaveras County? 23 A Yes. 24 Q So just to summarize, an '88 County permit 25 to pull the tank at 505? 648 1 A Yes. 2 Q A '91 permit to pull the tank at 505? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Contamination in '91? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Overexcavation and disposal in '91? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Letter from you in '93 that stated that 9 there were some issues remaining? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And your word was "significant 12 contamination"? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Then you left the County? 15 A Yes. 16 Q No work done between '91 and early '94? 17 A Not to my knowledge. 18 Q Then in '98, a underground storage tank 19 comes up missing? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Prior to that coming up missing, you 22 actually bid the job? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Then after that, you were contacted by Mr. 25 Womack? 649 1 A Yes. 2 Q Mr. Womack was at the site? 3 A Yes. Right. 4 Q While Mr. Womack was at the site, he 5 physically observed and commented on the gasoline coming 6 out of the ground? 7 A Yes. 8 Q You took a sample? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Sample results positive for gasoline? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Told Mr. Womack? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Mr. Mason came and saw you? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Mr. Mason did you not tell you where the 17 tank was? 18 A No. 19 Q Did not tell you where the soil went? 20 A No. 21 Q Did not tell you where the piping went? 22 A No. 23 Q Just wanted to close escrow? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And you submitted a draft of your work 650 1 plan? 2 A Yes. 3 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 4 Buckley. If any Member of the Grand Jury at this time 5 has any question or series of questions for Mr. Buckley, 6 I would be happy to ask them of him. 7 Q If the hydrocarbons had not been released 8 so soon after construction, would that have been -- I 9 apologize. I should have read the whole question first. 10 I am going to be able to ask this one. 11 If the hydrocarbons had not been released 12 so soon after construction, could that have been a 13 potential site for explosion, if you know? 14 A I assume here we are talking about the 15 water sampling that we did at the site after the tanks 16 were removed. 17 Q You can't ask me questions. You can 18 say -- 19 A Okay. I will assume in my response that 20 we are talking about the water sampling we conducted and 21 the blush of petroleum products that came up to the 22 groundwater. 23 At underground tank sites or any site 24 where there is significant hydrocarbons, even if it's 25 mixed with the groundwater, yes, we are concerned about 651 1 explosion hazards. There have been cases where backhoe 2 operators have been blown off their backhoes by digging 3 through soil that's been contaminated and causing a spark 4 and having an explosion. 5 In this case, I wasn't so concerned, 6 simply because there wasn't a real spark potential. We 7 weren't smoking around the site. The backhoe wasn't 8 digging through hard rock. It didn't seem a real 9 concern. 10 Q Hypothetically, we have a videotape. In 11 that videotape, it shows a truckdriver naked Nick 12 Hernandez smoking while the tank is being dug up. 13 Is that a problem, if you know? 14 A Yeah. Generally speaking, we don't like 15 to see that around tank sites. 16 Q Okay. Second question. I will ask more 17 Grand Jury questions in a moment. Whoops! Second 18 question from this Grand Juror. 19 How long are removal permits good for, if 20 you know? 21 A Removal permits with the County of Amador 22 during this time period in '91 did not have an expiration 23 date. 24 Q When you left in '94, still no expiration 25 date? 652 1 A I can't answer that. We rewrote the 2 permit, made it this long ten, twelve-page letter or 3 document. It may have had a clause in it saying work had 4 to be conducted within a certain time period after 5 issuance of the permit. 6 Q My question was, if, on Wednesday, when 7 you hit native soil or old pea gravel, the gasoline came 8 out of the rock or substrate, your best guess, as being 9 someone who was hen been in the consulting industry and 10 someone who oversaw the underground storage tank program, 11 would that similar thing have probably been true on 12 Saturday when the underground storage tank came out? 13 A It's hard to say that. We were excavating 14 down through pea gravel, new pea gravel, old pea gravel, 15 whatever. Probably mixed with the two. And we broke 16 through some sort of restrictive horizon that was holding 17 the hydrocarbons down under the surface of the water. 18 Q So it may or may not? 19 A Yeah. Because we got such a huge up-well 20 of hydrocarbons, you might want to think it was the first 21 time you had broken through. But not knowing the full 22 extent of the contamination, it's hard to say. Chances 23 are, if they had excavated into native material, 24 something similar may have happened. 25 Q By the time you left the County in 1994, 653 1 were you inspecting tank removals? 2 A Yes. 3 Q In '91 when you came, you were not, 4 correct? 5 A There was a brief period, couple months 6 after being hired by the County, where I tagged along as 7 an observer. 8 Q They brought you in to actually upgrade 9 the program, correct? 10 A Yeah. Before I was working with the 11 County, before I was hired by the County, the County tank 12 program was simply a fee collection mechanism. You 13 submitted your annual permit fee and that was the extent 14 of the program. The County was not conducting 15 inspections. They weren't really regulating tank 16 removals. 17 I was hired or my position was to be 18 dedicated toward the tank program and bring it to the 19 level that it should be. 20 Q And you made great strides, in your 21 opinion? 22 A I tried. 23 Q Okay. Should the hole that was opened on 24 the 6th of May have been left open, in your opinion? 25 A My opinion as an ex-regulator or as an 654 1 ex-consultant? I realize I can't ask the question, 2 but -- 3 Q I will start again. I will ask the 4 question. If you say, Please clarify, I will try to ask 5 it differently. 6 A Okay. 7 Q Should the hole that was opened on May 6, 8 1998, been left open? 9 A Please clarify it. 10 Q Are there safety issues regarding leaving 11 open pits along highways? 12 A Yes, there are. Generally speaking, 13 excavations, when they are open -- because they prevent 14 or present fall hazards, they are either fenced or they 15 are back-filled. 16 Q Okay. The second question, if so, should 17 the property right now be fenced off and have an open 18 pit? 19 A It depends. And let me explain that. 20 An open pit, where there is contamination 21 and you have groundwater, allows for greater volatility 22 of the petroleum products out of the groundwater. If you 23 leave the pit open long enough, it will clean itself up. 24 Q Bad for air; good for groundwater? 25 A Good for client. 655 1 Q Cheaper for the client? 2 A Cheaper for the client. 3 Q Bad for air, good for client, good for 4 groundwater? 5 A Yes. If you fill the excavation in, you 6 are to some extent blocking that volatization or aeration 7 of the groundwater. You are getting rid of a fall hazard 8 very well. You are eliminating it completely. 9 In my experience, different jurisdictions 10 will allow different approaches, depending on how strong 11 their air pollution control department is. 12 Q How long before this site could have been 13 deemed clean, to your knowledge? 14 A "Clean" is a relative term when it comes 15 to environmental investigations. No site can ever be 16 truly cleaned of all contamination once it's become 17 contaminated. 18 However, what we try and do is bring the 19 level of contamination down to a tolerable point where it 20 doesn't -- or we assume it won't adversely impact the 21 environment or human health and safety. 22 There are threshold values that the states 23 and counties mandate sites to be cleaned to. My opinion 24 at this site is that it would have taken a very long time 25 to reach those levels. And I say that because of the 656 1 geology at the site. The site had schists or slate. 2 It's vertically fractured. 3 Q And as you are answering the questions, if 4 you could also talk about which way it's fractured 5 toward. 6 A I would be happy to do that. The slates 7 are fractured generally along a northeast-southwest line, 8 if I remember correctly, generally north and south. And 9 they are vertically fractured. 10 So anything coming into the top of it and 11 dispersing downward will go straight down through the 12 fractures and then in a north and south direction. 13 In this case, I am guessing -- here I am 14 simply guessing -- that the groundwater gradient goes 15 from north uphill to south, which is downhill. So 16 contamination can be expected to travel generally 17 parallel to Highway 49 toward town. 18 Q Toward any bodies of water? 19 A Toward the north fork of Jackson Creek, 20 which is there. 21 Also, you have got fracture planes that 22 are east and west. Again, downgrading, it would be 23 toward the east, or to the north fork of Jackson Creek 24 there behind the library. 25 Q Okay. 657 1 A To specifically answer the question about 2 cleaning up the site, it would take a very long time for 3 petroleum products to pass through the groundwater or to 4 be removed out of those fractures. 5 Q Manual expensive? Or biodegradation? 6 A Either way would have taken a long time. 7 Q Does a plume of hydrocarbons mean probable 8 contamination of Jackson Creek? 9 A I don't believe I can answer that without 10 a good hydrogeologic study out there. It might be the 11 groundwater is moving so slowly through the fractures 12 that, by the time that plume hits Jackson Creek, it will 13 have been naturally attenuated or gone. It may be it 14 moves through so quickly it's already there. 15 I don't think you can answer that question 16 with the information we have. 17 Q And that's part of the local oversight 18 program or the Regional Board's oversight program? 19 A Right. That's the process that we had 20 delineated in the work plan. 21 Q 1998? 22 A That's right. 23 Q That's a process you are were asking to 24 start in 1991? 25 A When I was working for the County, yes, 658 1 that's what we were shooting for, was that investigation, 2 to find out what the -- what the extent of the problem 3 was. 4 Q If this release happened in the late '80s, 5 if they had got on it in '91, the plume of contamination 6 may have been smaller than it is in 1998? 7 A Certainly. This contamination is moving 8 away from the point of origin at whatever the rate is. 9 The faster they would have reacted to the initial problem 10 or when they were initially aware of it, the smaller the 11 plume would have been. 12 Q So failure to act may have increased the 13 scope? 14 A The extent of the problem and costs for 15 remediation, right. 16 Q Are there private wells whose water 17 quality might be compromised, if you know? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Who took the samples to Sacramento? 20 A It would have been a technician on the 21 staff of GRD. 22 Q Are they on the chain of custody, if you 23 have it in your report? 24 A Yes. It would have been marked on the 25 chain of custody form that we have. 659 1 Q Is that part of your work plan or not? 2 A I can look. 3 Q If it's not easy to find, that's something 4 GRD would have records of? 5 A Yes. And I apologize. It should be in 6 the work plan. It was an oversight when I put this 7 together several months ago. 8 Q We could have copied it for you also. 9 In 1993, how many -- I can't ask this 10 question. In your opinion, were there -- okay. Did you 11 do testing in 1993 at 505 Sutter Street? 12 A 1993? 13 Q That's the question. 14 A No. 15 Q Okay. 16 A The testing that was done for the initial 17 tank removal there in '91 was completed shortly after 18 nineteen -- or shortly after the tank was removed in 19 1991. 20 Q That was the Tallia exhibit which 21 basically outlined a lot of work in '91, no work in '92 22 for Mr. Tallia? 23 A That's right. 24 Q And no work for '93? 25 A That's right. 660 1 Q And no work up to early '94? 2 A Right. 3 Q The question which you can't answer: How 4 many codes were violated when you did the testing in 5 1993? 6 But were there problems with Mr. Mason 7 following the statutory schemes in your opinion in 1991 8 and 1992 and 1993 at his gas stations in Amador County? 9 A Yes, there was. And that was the reason I 10 wrote the letter in 1993. 11 Q Okay. 12 A Each of his stations in Amador County at 13 some point was not in compliance in pretty specific or 14 pretty significant areas, tank monitoring, looking for 15 leaks. He wasn't in compliance. 16 Q If, hypothetically, you had looked for 17 leaks, maybe you would have discovered leaks. Is that 18 the goal behind monitoring? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Therefore, if the tanks were leaking from 21 '85 until '91 and you were doing it appropriately, you 22 may have caught the leaks before 1998? 23 A That's assuming there's leaks there, but 24 yeah. We didn't know at that point in time if his other 25 tank systems were leaking. 661 1 Q If you had a double-wall tank, but you had 2 single-wall piping and single-wall piping all the way to 3 the dispensers, there would be other issues than just the 4 double-wall Issue, correct? 5 A Yes. 6 (Interruption in proceedings.) 7 THE FOREPERSON: We will take a ten-minute break. 8 And what I will do right now is read an admonition to you 9 and I will read it again when you are excused. 10 You are admonished not to reveal to any 11 persons, except as directed by the Court, what questions 12 were asked or what responses were given or any other 13 matters concerning the nature or subject of the Grand 14 Jury's investigation that you learned during your 15 appearance before the Grand Jury. 16 This admonition continues unless and until 17 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 18 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 19 punishable as contempt of court. 20 This does not prevent you from discussing 21 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 22 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 23 Grand Jury. 24 And to the Members of the Jury. The Grand 25 Jurors are admonished they are not to form or express any 662 1 opinions about this case or discuss it among themselves 2 until the Grand Jury receives the case for deliberation. 3 In addition, no inspection of evidence 4 should be conducted without the permission of the 5 Foreperson and on the advice of the prosecuting 6 attorney. A violation of this rule could result in a 7 charge of contempt against the Grand Juror who would 8 investigate or view any matters with regard to this case 9 without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 10 We stand in recess until five until 11 11:00. 12 MR. IREY: Can we finish Mr. Buckley? Two 13 questions. 14 Q Mr. Buckley, remember, I didn't ask this 15 question. 16 Results of tests are very important. Why 17 don't you keep record of notifying owner of results? 18 A I have no answer for that. Except for the 19 fact that some people are notetakers and other people are 20 not. And I am one of the latter group. I am terrible at 21 taking notes, as hard as I try. 22 What I find is that, if I forget to call 23 somebody, like a client, they get ahold of me real 24 quick. So I don't -- so generally, I don't need to take 25 the notes, because... 663 1 Q I'm sorry? 2 A Because if I have forgotten to call them, 3 they will let me know. 4 Q Along those lines, it's your standard 5 operating procedure to call when you get results? 6 A Sure. 7 Q Fax comes in, you make a call? 8 A That's right. 9 MR. IREY: Does a plume of hydrocarbons mean -- I 10 have already asked this question. 11 I have no further questions of Mr. 12 Buckley. If any other Members of the Grand Jury have 13 those? I don't think that you need to repeat your 14 admonition, but it's up to you. 15 THE FOREPERSON: No. I will have him sign it 16 that I did read it to him. 17 Would you please sign and date that for 18 me, please. 19 MR. IREY: Thank you, Mr. Buckley. 20 THE FOREPERSON: Recess until 11:00. 21 MR. IREY: Okay. 22 (Recess taken from 10:47 to 10:58 a.m.) 23 THE FOREPERSON: We are all here. 24 I think we are ready to start. 25 MR. IREY: Lou Broline. 664 1 THE FOREPERSON: If you could remain standing 2 and raise your right hand, please. You do solemnly swear 3 that the evidence you shall give in this investigation 4 now pending before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, 5 the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 6 God. 7 THE WITNESS: I do. 8 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You can sit down. 9 10 (TIME NOTED: 11:01 A.M.) 11 ---oOo--- 12 LOU BROLINE 13 Called as a witness herein by the People, 14 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 15 and testified as follows: 16 EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. IREY: 18 Q Could you spell your last name for the 19 court reporter and Members of the Grand Jury, please. 20 A B-R-O-L-I-N-E. Broline. 21 Q Mr. Broline, do you happen to have a 22 business card with you? 23 A No, I didn't bring one. I'm sorry. 24 Q Just taking a chance. 25 A Nine hundred of them back in the office. 665 1 Q Mr. Broline, who is your employer? 2 A Owens Illinois. 3 Q How many years have you worked for Owens 4 Illinois? 5 A Twenty-nine years. 6 Q And what Owens Illinois facility do you 7 currently work at? 8 A At the Owens Illinois Ione sand plant. 9 Q How long have you worked there? 10 A Since July of 1995 this time. 11 Q And before that, you worked at the same 12 plant? 13 A I had worked there in '71 to '74 for two 14 and a half years also. 15 Q What is your position for Owens Illinois 16 at the Ione plant? 17 A Plant manager. 18 Q You are the boss? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Number one guy? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Do you have a leaking underground storage 23 tanks there? 24 A No. 25 Q You are almost done, but a couple more 666 1 questions, Mr. Broline. 2 In early May of this year, did you happen 3 to receive any information regarding underground storage 4 tanks existing or coming to your facility? 5 A Only from Phil Joses, our production 6 superintendent, who received a call asking him if it did. 7 Q Okay. I didn't have an opportunity to 8 fully brief you, Mr. Broline. That was a perfect answer, 9 but you can't testify to what Mr. Joses said. You can 10 only testify to that: I had a conversation. 11 So you had a conversation with Mr. Joses 12 and it was regarding underground storage tank being 13 brought to the site allegedly? 14 A Allegedly, yes. 15 Q And to your knowledge, was an underground 16 storage tank from 505 Sutter Street brought to Owens 17 Illinois property at any time? 18 A No. At no time. 19 Q Okay. And after you learned of this and 20 were interviewed by myself and Mr. Ron Hall from the 21 District Attorney's Office, did you attempt to contact 22 any Womack related to where this story started? 23 A I spoke with Luke. 24 Q Who is Luke? 25 A Luke Womack, one of the -- he is an hourly 667 1 employee at our plant. 2 Q And you spoke with Luke Womack regarding 3 what specifically? 4 A Regarding bringing the company's name into 5 something that it has no involvement in. 6 Q And was this conversation 20 seconds or 20 7 minutes? 8 A Less than a minute. Directly following 9 your visit. 10 Q Okay. You brought Mr. Luke Womack into 11 your office. Did you ask him a specific question? 12 A No, I did not bring him in the office. I 13 met him alone in the yard or in the plant facilities. 14 Q Just you and him? 15 A Just he and I, right. 16 Q Not Mr. Phil Joses; not -- 17 A Not at the time, right. 18 Q What did you tell Mr. Luke Womack? 19 A I told Mr. Womack or Luke that I did not 20 appreciate him bringing -- he or his family bringing the 21 company's name into something they had no involvement 22 with. And further, I did not want to know any more about 23 it than that because I knew we were not involved in it. 24 Q So you specifically didn't ask him about 25 where the tank went or anything along those lines? 668 1 A No. I specifically told him I didn't want 2 to know any more about it than I already knew, which was 3 too much already. 4 Q But you have an underground storage tank 5 at your site, correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And it's upgraded to the 1998 standards, 8 correct? 9 A Correct. 10 Q As recently as two years ago, you spent 11 1,000 or 1,500 bucks fixing a minor problem? 12 A No. In July of '97, we spent 13 approximately $1,500 to bring it up to the December '98 14 specifications. 15 Q Okay. I have no further -- oh, yes, I 16 do. Your firm had to -- your business had to hire 17 outside counsel, correct? 18 A It's normal with us, when our corporate 19 name is in the public limelight, that we will have 20 corporate attorney or corporate attorney's 21 representatives involved, yes. 22 Q And do you today? 23 A We do today. 24 Q You have had several conversations with 25 that attorney -- you don't have to tell me the substance 669 1 of it -- prior to today? 2 A Yes. 3 Q So your company is out of pocket well over 4 $1,000 and probably over $2,000 because of this, correct? 5 A We are out of pocket whatever the fees 6 will be, that's correct. I don't know the nature of it. 7 MR. IREY: No further questions of Mr. Joses. 8 Any Member of the Grand Jury has one? At 9 this point -- I'm sorry. I said Mr. Joses. Just 10 checking to see if you were paying attention. 11 At this point, Mr. Broline, I will read 12 into the record the question asked by the Grand Juror, 13 and then you need to answer it just as if I had asked it, 14 please. 15 Q Were you asked at any time if you wanted 16 an underground storage tank? 17 A No, we were not. We had no need for one. 18 Q You have -- is it a diesel or gasoline 19 tank? 20 A It's gasoline. 21 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions. 22 Q Did ask you Luke Womack why he told 23 anybody that the tank was at Owens Illinois? 24 A No. I asked -- I -- as I said, I just 25 said I didn't want to know any more about it. 670 1 He did volunteer that he -- when he first 2 came to work for us, that he asked if he -- if a tank was 3 needed there, apparently because they had this one or 4 something. And found out that it wasn't. And he thought 5 at the time that that's how our name got involved in it. 6 Q How long has he worked there? 7 A 1995, three years. 8 Q So he tried to explain this by saying, 9 early 1995, he happened to ask somebody if they wanted an 10 underground storage tank? 11 A If they needed one. That's what he told 12 me. 13 Q And that's how he thinks that Owens 14 Illinois was brought into this? 15 A That's what he indicated to me. 16 Q Right when he started working there? 17 A That's right. That's, again, what he 18 related to me. 19 Q Maybe he had a different underground 20 storage tank. Do you have any idea if he did? 21 A No, I have no idea. 22 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions of the 23 Grand Jurors? Okay. 24 At this time, Mr. Broline, the Grand Jury 25 Foreman has an admonition. The admonition covers 671 1 everybody except your attorney. It covers Mr. Joses and 2 Luke and everybody at your plant that might come before 3 this Grand Jury. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 6 to any person except as directed by the Court what 7 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 8 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 9 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 10 appearance before the Grand Jury. 11 This admonition continues unless and until 12 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury's 13 proceedings is made public. Violation of this admonition 14 is punishable as contempt of court. 15 This does not prevent you from discussing 16 the matter with your attorney, if you have an attorney 17 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 18 Grand Jury. 19 And sir, if I could get you to date and 20 sign that I read you that. 21 MR. IREY: Sorry, Mr. Broline. One more 22 question. 23 Q Did Supervisor Bamert contact you at any 24 time regarding this underground storage tank? 25 A Not me, no. 672 1 MR. IREY: Okay. Phil Joses. Is that the right 2 pronunciation? 3 THE WITNESS: That's pretty close. 4 MR. IREY: You can tell me how you would say it. 5 THE WITNESS: Joses. 6 THE FOREPERSON: You do solemnly swear that the 7 evidence you shall give in this investigation now pending 8 before there this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the 9 whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 10 THE WITNESS: I do. 11 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 12 13 (TIME NOTED: 11:10 A.M.) 14 ---oOo--- 15 PHIL JOSES 16 Called as a witness herein by the People, 17 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 18 and testified as follows: 19 EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. IREY: 21 Q Mr. Joses, could you smell your last name 22 for the Members of the Grand Jury and the court reporter, 23 please. 24 A J-O-S-E-S. 25 Q Mr. Joses, who is your current employer? 673 1 A Owens Illinois. 2 Q How long have you been so employed? 3 A Twenty-nine years. 4 Q At what location are you currently 5 employed? 6 A The Ione sand plant. 7 Q How long have you been there? 8 A Eight. 9 Q It was inevitable. Trying to throw you 10 off. 11 Is this the first time you have testified? 12 A I have -- I testified a couple other 13 things in my life. 14 Q Okay. If any of my questions aren't 15 clear, which many of them probably are not, if you could 16 just ask me to rephrase it. I would be happy to do that. 17 A Okay. 18 Q Over the last seven months, have you 19 received any phone calls regarding an underground storage 20 tank being brought to Owens Illinois property? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Do you remember who was the first person 23 you spoke with? 24 A I believe it was Dave Mason. 25 Q Dave Mason III? 674 1 A Yeah, yes. 2 Q Early sixties, late sixties? 3 A Right. 4 Q He called you on the phone? Or he came 5 by? 6 A He -- he left a message on my machine and 7 I returned his call. 8 Q At work? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q Did Supervisor Bamert also call? 11 A No. 12 Q Did Bob Fourt also call? 13 A No. 14 Q Okay. And what was Mr. Mason's message? 15 A He asked me if we had a gasoline storage 16 tank. And I -- I didn't know what he was talking about. 17 and I told him no. 18 Q That was the whole extent of the 19 conversation? Or did you chat for a few minutes? 20 A I drove around the plant looking for the 21 tank. It had been raining. And I drove all over looking 22 for it. So I saw no evidence of anybody pulling off the 23 road somewhere where they didn't belong. And I called 24 him back and told him I couldn't find it. 25 Q Because you have had illegal dumping 675 1 issues out there in the past; is that correct? 2 A Mostly concerning trucks coming -- haul 3 trucks coming in to get product. We want them clean when 4 they get there so we can certify our product. That's 5 mostly what that's about. 6 Q What is your job title at the plant? 7 A Plant superintendent. 8 Q So Mr. Broline, then yourself? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q You told Mr. Mason you looked everywhere 11 for it and could not find the tank. 12 Did he have a response at that time? 13 A If he did, I don't remember what it was. 14 Q Okay. But you have a guard also at Owens 15 Illinois; is that correct? 16 A Twenty-four hour security right there at 17 the plant. 18 Q So shortly after Mr. Mason's phone call, 19 were you contacted by Bob Fourt? 20 A I don't recognize that name. 21 Q Okay. By Environmental Health? 22 A I don't think so, no. 23 Q Okay. I will read to you a portion of Mr. 24 Fourt's report. Maybe that will help refresh your 25 recollection. 676 1 "May 6th, 1998 11:30 a.m. Telephone call 2 with Phil Joses, Owens Illinois, to follow up on 3 disposition of underground storage tank. Mr. Joses 4 stated he had been out sick for two days and was 5 unaware of any underground storage tanks being 6 received at Owens Illinois facility. He said he 7 would ask around and call back." 8 Does that refresh your recollection? Or 9 you don't remember talking to Mr. Fourt? 10 A That sounds familiar. 11 Q It's your understanding Mr. Mason called 12 first before that phone call? 13 A Right. 14 Q And then May 6th at 1:00 p.m., that would 15 have been -- 16 A May 6th. 17 Q -- Wednesday afternoon. "Mr. Joses called 18 back and stated there had not been any underground 19 storage tanks moved onto Owens Illinois property." 20 Does that sound familiar? 21 A Yeah. 22 Q Between 11:30 on May 6th and 1:00 on May 23 6th, did you look around the plant to make your 24 determination? Or did you just go to lunch and call him 25 back and say, No tank here. 677 1 A No. I looked. I looked. I looked all 2 over. 3 Q In May of this year, it had been wet? 4 A Right. It had been raining in that period 5 of time. You couldn't get off the road there without 6 leaving tracks. If you did, you probably would have got 7 stuck if you tried. 8 Q The tank had to either be dumped or stored 9 on the road or you would have been able to observe? 10 A Right. But we checked security. I also 11 checked the logs from security, and they had no report of 12 any tank coming in on any truck. No reports of any 13 tanks. 14 Q Okay. And then in the next several weeks 15 before you were contacted by Ron Hall of the District 16 Attorney's Office, did you have any other conversations 17 with anybody related to an underground storage tank being 18 brought onto your site? 19 A Yeah. I asked Luke about it. And he kind 20 of sloughed it off. He didn't know anything about it. 21 And that was -- I informed Lou that I had taken these 22 phone calls and was looking into it. 23 Q So you spoke with Luke because Mr. Mason 24 mentioned Womack? Or because -- 25 A Right. 678 1 Q Okay. And what did -- when you described 2 it to Mr. Hall and myself a week or two ago, could you, 3 for the Grand Jury, describe it the same way. You 4 basically confronted Luke and you asked him? 5 A I said much -- something like that, Luke, 6 what's this business about a tank? Why are we involved 7 in a tank business? 8 Once again, he just sloughed it off. He 9 just said he didn't know anything about it. It was 10 something his old man had going. 11 Q Something his old man had going? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q Did he stare at you with some kind of 14 blank look or something? 15 A No. Just lightly sloughed it off. I 16 wouldn't know how else to describe it. 17 Q Okay. And then in September of this year, 18 Ron Hall and myself came out to Owens Illinois. Do you 19 recall that visit? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And do you recall Mr. Hall asking you if 22 there had been any leaking storage tanks at the Owens 23 Illinois facility? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Do you recall what you told Mr. Hall? 679 1 A Yes. We don't have a leaking gas tank. 2 Q Okay. And did you -- did he then ask you 3 if that underground storage tank from the Jackson Exxon 4 had ever been on Owens Illinois property, if you recall? 5 A I think I -- I think I recall the 6 question, yes. I have the same answer. 7 Q Did you tell him what time the plant 8 closed on Saturday? 9 A 3:00 p.m. 10 Q And when does it reopen again? 11 A 6:00 a.m. I take that back. 4:00 a.m. on 12 Monday morning. 13 Q Okay. And so anything after 3:00 p.m. on 14 Saturday, the plant is closed, but there is security? 15 A Twenty-four hour security, right. 16 Q And so every single person who shows up 17 normally is sent away at the gate? 18 A They are logged in and out. 19 Q So people can pick up loads late Saturday 20 or early Sunday? 21 A No. There was nobody there to load it. 22 But traffic going in and out is logged. 23 Q And you checked those logs? 24 A Right. 25 Q And those logs -- at that time, Mr. Hall 680 1 asked you to check for Luke Womack, Mark Sherrill, Nick 2 Hernandez and Doug Mondani. Did you check your logs 3 again? 4 A Right. 5 Q Did you find any of those names on May 2nd 6 or May 3rd? 7 A Let's see how this worked. He asked me to 8 check the logs. If I don't find anything, don't call him 9 back. I didn't find anything, so I didn't call him back. 10 Q Okay. And then a few weeks ago, Mr. Hall 11 and myself came again and met with you, correct? 12 A Right. 13 Q And we asked you if you had heard anything 14 from Luke Womack, correct? 15 A I'm sorry. Yes, I remember that. 16 Q Okay. And had you had any conversations 17 other than that initial May contact with Luke? Did you 18 have any in September or October or November of this 19 year? 20 A No. 21 Q You didn't ask Mr. Luke Womack any 22 questions related to the underground storage tank? 23 A No. 24 Q Okay. And at that point, Mr. Hall gave 25 you basically a summary of stories that have been told 681 1 regarding the underground storage tank, correct? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q He passed on to you the fact that, for the 4 first few days, they said the tank went to Owens 5 Illinois, correct? 6 A I remember that, yes. 7 Q After you called back and said, Tank not 8 here, the story changed, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Mr. Hall asked you the hypothetical about 11 recognition of trucks and how the new story was that no 12 one remembered what truck they put it on. Do you 13 remember that? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q Do you remember the statement you made to 16 Mr. Hall related to that story? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q Could you tell the Members of the Grand 19 Jury, who are all grown people, what you told Mr. Hall? 20 A I told Mr. Hall, Bullshit. Guys look at 21 trucks. They look to see how they are set up, how they 22 are rigged up. If you are working with somebody, if you 23 are working around somebody that is driving a truck, you 24 got to make sure he knows what he is doing, because you 25 could get hurt. 682 1 Q And did you tell him that the -- what you 2 thought about the story that four grown men could not 3 identify the truck trailer? 4 A Yes, I remember. 5 Q And did you tell him that maybe they 6 should have stuck with the Mel's story? 7 A Sounds like something I would say. 8 Q And then David Mason IV, which we call 9 Dave Jr. sometimes -- did you talk to Mr. Hall about 10 David Mason IV had been on site recently? 11 A Yes. He delivers petroleum products to 12 the plant on a regular basis. And I personally know him. 13 Q Did he tell you some story about whether 14 the Masons knew or did not know where the tank was 15 located? 16 A Yeah. They didn't know anything. 17 Q That's what Dave Mason told you? 18 A Right, yeah. 19 Q David Mason, IV? 20 A Junior, the one. 21 Q Early forties? 22 A Right. That's the one. 23 Q Then Ron Hall, Investigator Hall, asked 24 you if you had been in contact with Bob Womack. Do you 25 remember that? 683 1 A I don't remember, but I have not been in 2 contact with Bob Womack. 3 Q And are there any problems with the fuel 4 tanks at Owens Illinois, to your knowledge? 5 A No. We are in complete compliance with 6 where those fuel tanks are supposed to be. 7 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 8 Joses. If any other Members of the Grand Jury have any 9 questions, I would be happy to ask them at this time. 10 Q Is Luke Womack still an employee at your 11 plant? If so, what is his current job? 12 A Luke is still employed. He is a pit 13 station attendant. 14 Q And pit station being one of? 15 A It's an open pit mining operation. And we 16 mine it, mill it and dry it. And he is in the first step 17 of the process, where they dig the sand out of the ground 18 and puts it in a blunger unit that pumps it up to the 19 mill. His job is the responsibility of the blunger 20 unit. 21 MR. IREY: Any other questions? 22 Q Please provide a list of who has 23 contacted you about the tank ever. 24 A Dave Mason, Senior, Dave Mason, Jr., Ron 25 Hall, yourself. And evidently the guy I didn't recognize 684 1 his name. 2 Q Environmental Health? 3 A And that would -- that's the only ones I 4 can remember. 5 Q Not Bob Womack? 6 A No. 7 MR. IREY: Any other questions of any of the 8 Grand Jurors? Okay. 9 At this time, Mister -- it's hard after 10 all these months -- Mr. Joses, the Grand Jury Foreman 11 will given you what's called an admonition. 12 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to 13 reveal -- excuse me. 14 You are admonished not to reveal to any 15 person except as directed by the Court what questions 16 were asked or what responses were given or any other 17 matters concerning the nature or subject of the Grand 18 Jury's investigation that you learned during your 19 appearance before the Grand Jury. 20 This admonition continues unless and until 21 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 22 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 23 punishable as contempt of court. 24 This does not prevent you from discussing 25 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 685 1 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 2 Grand Jury. 3 And sir, if I could get you to date and 4 sign this admonition that I just read to you, please. 5 Thank you. 6 MR. IREY: Thank you. 7 Luke Womack. 8 Take your hat off. Sit up there under the 9 clock, please. 10 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Womack, if you would remain 11 standing and raise your right hand, please. 12 MR. IREY: Mr. Foreman, if you could additionally 13 read the self-incrimination instruction at this time. 14 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 15 MR. IREY: After you swear him in. 16 THE FOREPERSON: This is the one here? 17 Can you raise your right hand, please. 18 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 19 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 20 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 21 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 22 THE WITNESS: I do. 23 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 24 MR. IREY: Could you hear Mr. Womack's answer? 25 Mr. Womack, for all the Members of the 686 1 Grand Jury here, I am going to have to treat you as an 2 adverse witness. You are going to need to speak up. 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I do. 4 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Mr. Womack, you are 5 advised under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution of 6 the United States and also under Article 1 of the 7 California Constitution that you have a privilege against 8 self-incrimination. That is to say that you do not have 9 to answer any questions that may tend to incriminate you 10 or subject you to punishment for a crime. And you can 11 refuse to answer any such questions by stating that the 12 answer may tend to incriminate you. 13 Do you understand? 14 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I understand. 15 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may sit down. 16 17 (TIME NOTED: 11:25 A.M.) 18 ---oOo--- 19 LUKE WOMACK 20 Called as a witness herein by the People, 21 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 22 and testified as follows: 23 EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. IREY: 25 Q Mr. Womack, could you spell your last name 687 1 for the court reporter and give your date of birth, 2 please. 3 A W-O-M-A-C-K. 5/9/72. 4 Q What's your full name, Mr. Womack? 5 A Luke Anthony Womack. 6 Q Mr. Womack, I am going to read you a 7 definition out of the Penal Code. 8 "Perjury defined: Every person who, 9 having taken an oath that he will testify, declare, 10 depose or certify truly before any competent 11 tribunal officer or person in any of the cases in 12 which such an oath made by law of the State of 13 California be administered, willfully and contrary 14 to such oath states as true any material matter he 15 knows which to be false, and every person who 16 testifies, declares, deposes or certifies under 17 penalty of perjury in any of the cases in which such 18 testimony, declarations, depositions or 19 certification is permitted by law by the State of 20 California under penalty of perjury and willfully 21 states as true any material matter which he knows to 22 be false is guilty of perjury. 23 "Perjury is punishable by two, four or six 24 years of imprisonment." 25 Do you understand? 688 1 A I understand. 2 Q You are going to testify truthfully today? 3 A I am going to testify truthfully today. 4 Q What happened to the tank? 5 A I have no idea. 6 Q Mr. Womack, what was the first day that 7 you learned of the potential purchase of the gas station 8 by somebody in your family? 9 A To be honest with you, I could not tell 10 you. I don't know what day this all happened. 11 Q What year? 12 A It would be this year. 13 Q So this year, for the first time, you 14 heard that a gas station might be purchased by some 15 member or partnership or corporation that your family is 16 involved in? 17 A By Roland, yeah. 18 Q Roland. Your brother? 19 A My brother Roland, yeah. 20 Q Okay. So Mr. Broline was in here telling 21 us a story, in 1995, you had some story about needing an 22 underground storage tank? 23 A I have no idea what that's about. 24 Q Okay. Mr. Broline had a conversation with 25 you regarding how Owens Illinois got brought into this, 689 1 correct? 2 A Yeah. 3 Q And you made a statement to him? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q And what was that statement? 6 A I said that, when I found out that the gas 7 station was being purchased, and I asked my brother -- I 8 think -- I am not exactly sure who was all there or where 9 we were at. There was a group of us sitting around. 10 I asked what was going to happen to 11 everything? My dad -- I am almost positive it was my dad 12 said, It will probably be hauled off to the junk yards. 13 I said, Isn't it worth anything? He said, 14 I don't care. If you can get something out of any of it, 15 go ahead and take it. 16 And I told him then that, when I started 17 work at Owens -- that might have been in '95 -- that 18 something was -- their fuel tank was getting water in the 19 fuel. I said, I don't know why. But it was getting 20 water in the fuel. And I said, Their gas pump is faulty. 21 You got to open the door on it, stick your hand in and 22 twist the dial and almost get your finger caught to get 23 it to work. I told him, I will talk to the bosses at 24 work and see if they are interested. 25 I guess it was after you come out to work, 690 1 Phil come up to me and says, I don't know what is going 2 on. I said, The only thing I can think of is, this is 3 why you are brought into it. 4 Q You told that story to Phil? 5 A No. I told that to Lou. I might have 6 told to it Phil, too. I did tell it to Lou. 7 Q So between when you heard from your dad at 8 some meeting where you don't remember who was there -- 9 A I think we were at lunch somewhere. There 10 was a group of us sitting around. I don't know. 11 Q "We" being Womacks? 12 A Yeah. I don't -- if I see my dad 13 somewhere, I just pull in, you know. 14 Q And then until the District Attorney's 15 Office came out to Owens Illinois, you hadn't talked to 16 anybody about the underground storage tank? 17 A Not that I can recall. 18 Q You didn't talk to your dad about it? 19 A Not that I can recall, huh-uh. 20 Q You didn't talk to your mom about it? 21 A No, not that I can recall. 22 Q Do you call June Womack your mom? 23 A No. Well, I call -- she is my stepmom. I 24 call her June. 25 Q June. And then Roland, Kimberly and Larry 691 1 are your stepbrothers? 2 A And sister, yes. 3 Q And sister. 4 A Yeah. 5 Q Okay. So how many times have you 6 discussed the underground storage tank with your father? 7 A Recently? 8 Q Total. 9 A Total? I couldn't tell you. Recently -- 10 recently, it's been probably quite a bit. We have 11 commented on it. 12 Q Okay. Back in May, so your dad is going 13 to purchase a gas station. But it's not really your dad. 14 It's who? 15 A No. Roland was going to purchase the gas 16 station. 17 Q That's Roland and Nadine? 18 A Yeah. 19 Q And before that, was KRL going to purchase 20 the gas station? 21 A Not that I know of. 22 Q Okay. So who told you that Roland and 23 Nadine were going to purchase the gas station? 24 A My dad did. 25 Q So could you list the other properties 692 1 your dad told you Roland and Nadine are going to buy? 2 A I would have to think about it. I don't 3 know. 4 Q How about KRL? 5 A What about it? 6 Q Yeah. Tell me about KRL. 7 A I am not a member of it. 8 Q You were. 9 A Yeah, about six years ago. 10 Q Okay. And what did a member in KRL do for 11 you? 12 A I was a quarter partner in KRL. 13 Q You owned a quarter of KRL? 14 A Yeah, I guess -- I think that's how it was 15 set up. 16 Q And what did KRL own? 17 A What did they own? 18 Q Land, airplanes, boats. What did they 19 own? 20 A They owned most everything, I guess. They 21 owned land, a house. I don't know if they had an 22 airplane at that time. I am sure they owned some 23 automobiles. 24 Q What year did your dad move into the house 25 on Ridge Road? 693 1 A Ridge, I was about 13. So I was either 2 12, 13. I don't know. About eighty -- '85, somewhere 3 around there. 4 Q Okay. And so what year did you become a 5 member of KRL? 6 A I am not sure. 7 Q More than ten years ago? 8 A Became a member? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A I'm not -- probably around there. I don't 11 know. 12 Q When you were in -- how old are you now? 13 A Twenty-six. 14 Q When you were in your teens? 15 A Well, yeah. Probably would have had to 16 have been. 17 Q When you were in high school? 18 A Probably. 19 Q When you were in junior high school? 20 A Junior high. Think where I was at. I 21 don't believe so. 22 Q So somewhere in high school, you owned -- 23 how big is your dad's house? 24 A I have no idea. 25 Q Seven thousand square feet? 694 1 A Maybe, yeah. Close. 2 Q So in high school, you owned a quarter of 3 your dad's house? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q How did you buy it? 6 A I was acquired into the partnership, I 7 guess. 8 Q Tell me a little bit more about the 9 partnership when you were in high school. What's KRL 10 stand for? 11 A Now or then? In high school? 12 Q In high school. 13 A It's stood for Kim, Roland, Luke and 14 Larry. 15 Q Was it a corporation when you were in high 16 school? 17 A I don't think -- I don't think so. I 18 think it's been a partnership. 19 Q Okay. So in high school, it was Kim, 20 Roland, Luke and Larry? Or was it Larry and Luke? 21 A However -- whoever said it, I guess. 22 Q Did it ever have two Ls? Or always three 23 letters? 24 A Always three letters. 25 Q Was one of the kids brought into it -- 695 1 were you or Luke brought into it as a fourth person at -- 2 A Larry or I? I was brought in as a fourth 3 person. 4 Q So it's your understanding Kim, Roland, 5 Larry and Luke each owned a quarter of KRL? 6 A As far as I know. 7 Q The corporation? 8 A No. I think it was a partnership. 9 Q Okay. So before that, do you know if it 10 was a corporation? 11 A I think I remember seeing a sign or 12 something saying KRL Corporation, but I am not sure on 13 that part. 14 Q Okay. And then several years ago, you 15 think it was about six, you left the partnership? 16 A Correct. 17 Q So how old are you now? 18 A Twenty-six. 19 Q So, at 20, you left the partnership? 20 A Yeah. I was 20 or 21. 21 Q Why did you leave the partnership? 22 A Because I got married. 23 Q That was a rule, if you get married, you 24 have to leave the partnership? 25 A Kind of. Not really a rule. Just I 696 1 didn't want to -- I had a big falling out with the whole 2 family when I got married. So I kind of went on my own. 3 They were unhappy with me. 4 Q What year did you get married? 5 A That would be five years in April. So 6 '94. 7 Q So you had had a falling out in '94, and 8 you left the corp -- 9 A The partnership. 10 Q The partnership. 11 This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 12 No. 58, Luke. It's a two-page document. Could you read 13 what is it is entitled at the top. 14 A Voluntary withdrawal from partnership. 15 Q Okay. And so it's an agreement between 16 Luke, a partner of KRL, and his brother Roland, correct? 17 A Yeah. 18 Q And it's signed 3/10/94? 19 A Correct. 20 Q And that's your signature on the bottom 21 left? 22 A Correct. 23 Q Do you recognize that as your brother's on 24 the right? 25 A Yeah, looks like it. 697 1 Q Did you do this in front of a notary? 2 A I couldn't tell you. 3 Q Do you remember doing it in front of a 4 notary? 5 A I don't remember. 6 Q Do you remember going to George Ryan's 7 office and signing documents? 8 A Yeah, I have been to George Ryan's. 9 Q And so do you remember if you signed it 10 with your brother present or not? 11 A I don't -- I do not remember. 12 Q Okay. And you are not sure that Evelyn 13 Ryan -- that you signed it in front of her? 14 A Yeah, yeah. I could not -- I don't 15 remember that far back. 16 Q How many partnerships have you gotten out 17 of in the last six years? 18 A This is the only one I know of. 19 Q Okay. Paragraph 5. Could you read that 20 into the record, please. 21 A "That the undersigned does sell his entire 22 partnership interest to Roland Womack for sum of $100. 23 Receipt hereby acknowledged." 24 Q You owned a quarter of a 7,000 square foot 25 house, and you sold it to Roland for 100 bucks? 698 1 A I think he was the president, yeah. 2 Q And then you owned 2,000 acres in Elko, 3 Nevada; and you sold that for 100 bucks? 4 A Correct. 5 Q I can't ask you about a lawyer, but did 6 you get gift tax advice from an accountant or CPA on 7 this? 8 A Myself, personally? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A I don't remember. I have talked to 11 attorneys with my dad. I don't know. 12 Q How much was KRL worth when you gave it 13 away for 100 bucks? 14 A I don't know. I do not know. 15 Q More than 5 million? 16 A I do not know. 17 Q More than a million? 18 A I -- back then, I do not know. 19 Q Did you forget? Or did you never know? 20 A I never knew. I was never -- I was just 21 pretty much someone who signed papers. That's the way I 22 was brought into it. I -- that's why it made no 23 difference to me to go out of it. 24 Q So you were out of it in '94. Have you 25 followed any of the property purchases or property sales 699 1 since '94? 2 A Through KRL? 3 Q Yeah. 4 A Not really, not, no. 5 Q Just today the front page article of the 6 paper -- wasn't that a KRL deal? 7 A Oh, yeah. I think that was KRL. 8 Q So you followed that. 9 How much money did KRL -- that was 10 property you owned in '94, wasn't it? 11 A I don't know. Might have. 12 Q So it sold for several hundred thousand 13 dollars, a million dollars? 14 A What did it sell for? 15 Q Yeah. 16 A I don't know. 17 Q Okay. How many -- was it over 1,000 18 acres? 19 A I know that. It was -- I think it was 20 1,800 acres. 21 Q So you get rid of your portion of the 22 1,800 acres in Amador County for 100 bucks when you were 23 20 years old? 24 A I got out of everything. 25 Q Did you get anything for this, like a new 700 1 airplane every couple years? 2 A No. 3 Q Nothing? 4 A No. 5 Q You signed away a million plus to your 6 brother Roland? 7 A Yeah, I guess. 8 Q And then you worked all day on the gas 9 station taking those tanks out for Roland? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q Did Roland work that day? 12 A He wasn't there. 13 Q Did you get paid? 14 A Did I? No. 15 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 16 No. 50. 17 Did you ever see KRL Partnership documents 18 back in the mid '90s? 19 A I probably did. They are usually laying 20 on the desk. 21 Q There is a list of cars there. You see 22 those on page 1? 23 A Yeah. 24 Q Did you own any of those cars when you 25 were a member of KRL Partnership? 701 1 A I don't know if they were in the 2 partnership or not. 3 Q So you kind of bought and sold cars as KRL 4 Partnership, if you know? 5 A Yeah. 6 Q Okay. Paragraph 1. Half interest in 7 2,200 acres Elko Nevada, $2 million. 8 Did you own the Elko property when you 9 were a member of KRL? 10 A Yeah, I believe that was in KRL. 11 Q Home on Ridge Road, $900,000. 12 You owned a quarter of that? 13 A I guess. 14 Q 57 acres on 88. 15 That's Roland's house, right? 16 A I think he only has, like, 38. 57 acres. 17 I don't know. That might have been part of that 1,800. 18 I am not sure. 19 Q Ninety acres, Bossi Ranch. 20 Did you own that then or that came up 21 after you left? 22 A I think that just come out about two or 23 three years ago. 24 Q You live at Bossi Ranch now, correct? 25 A Correct. 702 1 Q Are you buying it from your dad or from 2 the partnership? 3 A I bought the trailer that's on the ranch 4 from Paul Bossi himself. 5 Q Okay. 6 A I got a little one acre then in the middle 7 of it. 8 Q So it's a ranch and a separate parcel 9 where the mobile home is? 10 A I think that's how they got it set up. I 11 think it's three separate parcels. 12 Q Okay. Then there was a note from Dick 13 Moseman. Half of Elko property $707,000. 14 Was Mr. Moseman, if you know, making 15 $6,000 a month payments to the partnership? 16 A Yeah, I heard that. 17 Q And this RROSCO, Jackson property, 18 $645,000 at $10,000 a month. 19 Was RROSCO making payments at $10,000 a 20 month to the partnership? 21 A According to this, yeah. 22 Q But do you know that? Or do you remember? 23 A No. I know -- I don't know what the thing 24 was. Yeah, I guess. According to this thing. I do not 25 remember that. 703 1 Q That's the front page story today, right? 2 That business sold to the Indians today? 3 A I didn't read that part in the paper 4 today. 5 Q Okay. So you don't know how much your 6 one-quarter interest in the Jackson property was? 7 A No. 8 Q What about the Riley family trust? 9 A I know the Rileys, I don't know -- I know 10 they own property out there. 11 Q How long have you known the Rileys? 12 A Mmmm... Since I was probably maybe ten. 13 I probably met them before that, but I... 14 Q That Bud Riley and somebody else named 15 Riley? 16 A Mike Riley. 17 Q The guy writing the letters to the editor. 18 Is that Bud or Mike Riley? 19 A I don't know. It's one of them. Might be 20 both of them. I don't know. 21 Q H-A-L-B-L-I-B Jackson property? 22 A I don't know who that is. 23 Q They might have been making $2,000 a month 24 payments. You don't know? 25 A I don't know who that is. 704 1 Q The Wayne Elko property, 1,600 a month 2 payments. 3 A I don't know that either. 4 Q KRL Partnership on 1997, looks on the 5 spread sheet they were bringing in $23,000 a month, 6 twenty-two six, correct? 7 A Yeah, correct. 8 Q And so divide it four ways. That's you 9 get 5,000 bucks a month, Roland gets 5,000 bucks a month, 10 Kimberly gets 5,000 bucks a month and Larry gets 5,000 11 bucks a month. 12 Is that how it worked? 13 A Well, '97, I wasn't in it. That was last 14 year. 15 Q Did you ever get checks? 16 A Did I ever get checks? I know it's in my 17 income taxes, it shows. I don't think I ever had a check 18 personally. I might have had a few. I don't know for 19 amounts. 20 Q So you paid taxes, but you never received 21 any money? 22 A Not cash, you know, maybe small amounts. 23 Not nothing like that. But I know part of it was 24 probably going to my college. 25 Q At UOP? 705 1 A Correct. 2 Q How long did you go to UOP? 3 A Three years. 4 Q Okay. So what about the cars? The '72 5 Jaguar. How much did KRL pay for that? 6 A I cannot tell you. 7 Q What about '98 Lincoln Navigator? 8 A I could not tell you. 9 Q What about the '98 Lincoln town car? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q Your dad, after all of this happened, took 12 out an advertisement. Do you remember that? 13 A I remember him telling me about it, yeah. 14 Q Did you ever see it in the newspaper? 15 A I don't get the newspaper. I don't -- I 16 do not recall seeing it in the newspaper. 17 Q Did you ever see it posted anywhere around 18 town? 19 A Yeah, I did see it posted. I showed it to 20 friends. 21 Q Where? 22 A I think I seen it up at Safeway. Someone 23 was with me. I think we seen it on the billboard at 24 Safeway. 25 Q A little teeny two-by-three tab like Grand 706 1 Jury Exhibit 47? Or was it blown up into eight and a 2 half by eleven? 3 A I do not remember. Yeah, I have seen this 4 sitting on my dad's desk. 5 Q You don't remember whether this reward 6 thing was blown up big? 7 A I don't remember how big, yeah. 8 Q But you did see it posted? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q Do you remember when it was posted? 11 A No. 12 Q Do you remember if it was posted after the 13 tank came back? 14 A I don't know. I don't know when the tank 15 came back. 16 Q Didn't you tell your friend who works in 17 the plant that the tank came back the day it came back at 18 Owens Illinois? 19 A I might have. I don't know. Like I said, 20 I am not good with dates. I don't know. 21 Q Okay. Big issue: Find the tank. 22 Remember that, right? 23 A I remember my dad said, yeah, the tank was 24 back. 25 Q And then you went and told your friend at 707 1 work, The tank is back? 2 A I said, yes, that you guys had the tank 3 and destroyed it. That's the only thing I have heard 4 about it. 5 Q So who told you we had the tank? 6 A I believe my dad did. 7 Q Tell us about this big blow-up in 1994 8 where you gave up between 1 and $2 million to your 9 family. They just weren't happy with who you married or 10 more than that? 11 A No. That was it. 12 Q So when Kimberly left the partnership, was 13 it the same deal with her, out because she got married? 14 A I think she got out because it was a pain 15 to come up and sign papers. 16 Q So it was a pain to make 22,000 bucks a 17 month, so she just gave up her million plus? 18 A I guess. I don't know. I don't even know 19 when she got out of it. 20 Q Did she tell you why she got out of it? 21 A No. We never talked about it. 22 Q What about your brother Larry, when he got 23 out? 24 A I don't -- 25 Q Or did he get out? 708 1 A I don't even know if he is out. 2 Q Okay. Did have a big falling out also? 3 A Larry? 4 Q Yeah. 5 A Not like I did. 6 Q So yours was the big blow-up. That's why 7 you got out? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q And you gave to it Roland for 100 bucks? 10 A Correct. 11 Q And Kimberly. Do you remember who she 12 gave it to? 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q Do you remember who Luke gave it to? 15 A Who I gave to it? 16 Q I'm sorry. Larry. I apologize. 17 A Like I said, I don't even know. I thought 18 he was still in it. 19 Q Why do you think he is still in it? 20 A Because I have never heard that he was 21 out. 22 Q Okay. Did you hear that anybody gave up 23 their share to Nadine? 24 A I -- I think she can sign papers. I don't 25 know if she has a share in it or not. 709 1 Q Okay. Why do you think she can sign 2 papers? 3 A Because I think I have heard my dad say: 4 Roland, Nadine, you have to go up and sign papers. I 5 don't know if that is part of the partnership or... 6 Q How often did you guys have to come up and 7 sign papers? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q When you were signing these papers, did 10 your dad explain to you what you were signing? Or did 11 anybody explain to you what you were signing? 12 A Sometimes my dad did. Seemed like we 13 signed most of them in George Ryan's office, and he would 14 say -- told me what it was, and I signed it. 15 Q Okay. And so you don't know when Kimberly 16 withdrew from the partnership. 17 Do you know, is there any chance it could 18 have been right around the same time you did? 19 A It could have been. I don't know. 20 Q Was she having problems with the family 21 the same time? 22 A Not that I know of. 23 Q How come it's your mom and dad's house and 24 they didn't own it, if you know? 25 A How come it's their house and they don't 710 1 own it? 2 Q How come KRL owns everything? 3 A They are the one with the money, I guess. 4 Q Taxes? 5 A Maybe. I don't know. Like I said, I am 6 not part of KRL. I don't know. 7 Q So you don't know whether KRL bought the 8 gas station or Roland? 9 A I know Roland and Nadine both told me that 10 they bought it. 11 Q How much did they pay for it? 12 A I could not tell you. 13 Q Did they tell you this before or after the 14 demolition that weekend? 15 A I think Roland told me before, because I 16 asked what was going -- why they bought it. And he said, 17 They are going to use it for a parking structure. 18 Because he has no parking at his dental office. Or 19 limited parking, I should say; not no parking. 20 Q So he was going to spend two hundred some 21 thousand dollars, three hundred some thousand dollars, to 22 get parking spaces for his dental office? 23 A If that's what he paid, yeah. 24 Q Okay. Before we get into the KRL much 25 more, why don't you please, if you could for the Grand 711 1 Jurors, let them know who contacted you about the gas 2 station demolition, how far ahead of time, things along 3 those lines. 4 A Who contacted me? 5 Q Your dad or Roland? 6 A I don't know if anybody contacted me. 7 Roland -- Roland was gone. It must have been my dad, you 8 know. If I was contacted, it was my dad. When it was 9 started, I was coming home from work. And there was that 10 excavator thing there crunched up into the side. It was 11 still standing. That was the day before they took it 12 down, I guess, or two days before. 13 I was driving by. My dad's truck was 14 there. I pulled in and helped them load a big air 15 compressor that they were pulling out of the shed, the 16 side. 17 Q And you stayed the rest of the day? 18 A That day? That was? 19 Q Friday. 20 A If it was Friday, we loaded that up. I 21 think we loaded the gas pumps up and took those out to 22 the Bossi Ranch, put them in the barn. 23 Q Who is the "we"? 24 A My dad and I. And I think it was Tony 25 Hernandez. 712 1 Q Tony Hernandez is a friend of your brother 2 Larry? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Is he a friend of yours also? 5 A Well, I know -- yeah. I wouldn't say good 6 friend. He is a friend. 7 Q KRL owned Larry's house, too. Did it own 8 Larry's house when you owned KRL? 9 A I don't think so. I think they -- no. 10 Because Larry was back -- he was in Illinois, then L.A. 11 I don't think he has been there that long. 12 Q Illinois. 13 Tina Womack doesn't like Larry or your dad 14 very much. 15 A Tina Womack? 16 Q Tina Wolin. I apologize. 17 Do you know Tina Wolin? 18 A Yeah. 19 Q Do you think she would lie because of her 20 relationship with your dad? 21 A I -- how can I tell you? Yeah. 22 Q Just asking. 23 A Yeah. 24 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 25 55, five photographs. We are going to go through them 713 1 fairly quickly. Okay? 2 A Mm-hmm. 3 Q Do you recognize this photograph? 4 A Yeah. It's Bossi Ranch. 5 Q The old chicken barn? 6 A Yeah, the chicken barn. 7 Q And this photograph? 8 A Must be fuel hoses. 9 Q You don't know what -- do you know whether 10 or not those are located at the Bossi Ranch? 11 A That looks like the inside of the barn, 12 yeah. 13 Q Third photograph. 14 A That's inside the barn. Air compressor 15 and fuel pumps. 16 Q That you brought Friday to the Bossi Ranch 17 with your father and -- 18 A Tony Hernandez, correct. 19 That's Mark Sherrill's boat. 20 Q Mark Sherrill's boat? 21 A Yeah. 22 That's another picture of... 23 Q That's all you did on Friday? 24 A As far as I know. 25 Q Besides working that day? 714 1 A Yeah, that's all I did. 2 Q Okay. Then on Saturday, you worked at 3 Owens Illinois? 4 A I am not sure. I don't know if I was on 5 graveyard that week or swing or days. My shift rotates 6 all the time. It's always different. 7 Q So then you eventually showed up at 505 8 Sutter Street? 9 A Was that the address? If that's the 10 address, yes. 11 Q The gas station next to your brother's -- 12 A I don't know. I don't know numbers or 13 nothing. I don't even know what his address is at the 14 thing. 15 Q The gas station that you helped demo that 16 Saturday, you showed up sometime that day? 17 A Correct. 18 Q Okay. Could you go ahead and give a 19 narrative to the Grand Jurors, everything you remember 20 happening that day, everybody who was on site, exactly 21 what happened. 22 And then give us an explanation why you 23 told Investigator Hall you weren't there when the tanks 24 came out of the ground and if that still is true today. 25 A When I got there, I'm pretty sure -- I 715 1 know I got there. I was late. I don't know why I was 2 late. I think the building was already down. And the 3 excavator was sitting on top of it. I think they were 4 loading stuff into Mark Sherrill's dump trucks. At 5 least, I think one of them was Mark Sherrill's. The 6 other one, I am not sure whose it was. I don't know if 7 it had a name on the side. It was a different color. 8 Who was there? That's my dad was there, 9 Mark Sherrill, Nick Hernandez, Billy Wolin. He was 10 running the excavator. Bill Wolin Senior was there on 11 and off, I think. My stepmom was there. 12 I think -- I don't know who it was. I 13 think a Highway Patrolman stopped by and talked to my dad 14 for a while. Matter of fact, I think a couple City cops 15 stopped and talked to my dad a little bit. I wasn't 16 really paying attention. 17 The only one I do remember standing there 18 talking was John Carstensen. He came up. I was standing 19 there when they were talking. 20 I think that's all that was there. 21 Q Go through these photos pretty quickly. 22 This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 25. 23 Do you recognize the two people in that 24 photograph? 25 A Yeah. It's Billy Wolin, the excavator, me 716 1 standing. 2 Q Have you ever seen this permit before? 3 It's really an inspection record. 4 A I'm not sure. I might have, I don't know. 5 Q Have you seen any demolition permits in 6 your life? 7 A Yeah. 8 Q Who showed you that? 9 A My dad. 10 Q Did he show it to you? Was it posted 11 somewhere on this site in Grand Jury Exhibit 25? Because 12 I don't see it. 13 A I don't know. I couldn't tell you. 14 Q Can you see it anywhere? 15 A I -- no, I don't see it. 16 Q Do you remember the first time you saw it 17 was the day that the demolition occurred? 18 A I don't know when I -- first time I saw 19 it, no. I can't tell that you. 20 Q Did your dad ever tell you about the 21 retaining wall four feet high in Grand Jury Exhibit 25? 22 A Just recently. 23 Q Did he say he told everybody on earth -- 24 withdraw that question. 25 Did he tell you that he told several 717 1 people that wall wasn't there? 2 A That he told people -- that he told people 3 it wasn't there? 4 Q Yeah. Did he tell you that he told the 5 regulatory community that they were mistaken, that that 6 wall did not exist? 7 A Not that I recall. He never told me 8 nothing like that. 9 Q Has your dad ever told you that he 10 violated any laws? 11 A Has he ever violated any laws? 12 Q Has he ever told you that he did? 13 A Of any kind? 14 Q Yeah. 15 A He has got speeding tickets. He has told 16 me about those. 17 Q Did he tell you this was against the law 18 to take this wall out? 19 A No. 20 Q Did he tell you it was against the law to 21 take the tank out? 22 A No. 23 Q Did he tell you it was against the law to 24 haul the soil off? 25 A No. 718 1 Q Today he still believes it's not illegal. 2 Has he told you he thinks everything he did was legal? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you ask anybody if it was legal to 5 pull tanks? 6 A Did I personally? 7 Q Yeah. 8 A No. 9 Q So all of this hullabaloo and you never 10 asked a soul on this planet whether or not that was legal 11 to do, because your dad said it was? 12 A Yeah. He said he had the permit. 13 Q And you have seen the permit? 14 A Yeah, I had seen it a couple days ago. 15 Q What did it look like? 16 A I don't think it looked like that. 17 Q So after you received a Grand Jury 18 subpoena, someone showed you a permit? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q Whom? 21 A My dad. 22 Q What were you guys talking about? 23 A About how, after he got the permit and the 24 City has told him that it included everything and the 25 tank, that you guys are still reneging or are trying to. 719 1 Q That's what your dad told you? 2 A Yes. 3 Q He sat you down, paperwork, one of which 4 was the permit? 5 A No. He didn't sit me down. We were at 6 breakfast. He had a folder with him. He was -- there 7 was two other people present. 8 Q Whom? 9 A I don't remember the one guy's name. 10 First time I ever seen him. And the other one was one of 11 the people that's in the newspaper. Paul or Powell or -- 12 that's his last name. 13 Q Somebody somebody Paul? 14 A Rick Paul or something like that, yeah. 15 And we were all sitting around. They had 16 papers all over the table. He flipped through. "Here is 17 the permit right here." I glanced at it. 18 Q And what permit was that? 19 A I guess the City permit. 20 Q What did that City permit say? 21 A I didn't read it. 22 Q So your dad goes like this, goes, See, 23 here is a permit here, Luke. 24 You said, Good, Dad. I am glad you have 25 it? 720 1 A Pretty much. 2 Q You signed away 1.2 million for 100 bucks, 3 correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And your dad shows you something you don't 6 read and tells you it's a permit and you believe it, 7 correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Has your dad ever showed you these County 10 permits to pull underground storage tanks before? 11 A Not that I recall. Did he show me County 12 permits? 13 Q Yeah. Did he show you the 1988 permits 14 for the same location? 15 A No. 16 Q Did he ever tell you he went to the County 17 and looked in the files and determined there were permits 18 in 1988? 19 A Not that I recall. 20 Q Did he show you the 1991 permits? 21 A '91, not -- he showed me one -- I don't 22 know. I don't know if it was actual permit or copy of 23 it. I think he showed me one they got when they put that 24 tank in. 25 Q In 1991? 721 1 A Is that when it was? I don't know. 2 Q So this is page 284. Okay. Permit to 3 close. Environmental Health. Mason Oil. Sutter 4 Street. See all that? 5 A Yeah. 6 Q What year? 7 A '91. 8 Q This has been marked page 436. Permit to 9 tank close. 10 A '88. Same address. 11 Q So does this look like there was a permit 12 to close tanks to you in 1988 from the County? 13 A Is that County? 14 Q Bad copy. County permit application. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Same thing in '91? 17 A Yeah, looked like it, what you showed me. 18 Q Okay. So did your dad ever tell you that 19 there were County permits in '88 and '91 and, in fact, 20 '98 is the first time the site has had tanks pulled 21 without permits? 22 A He told me he had a permit. 23 Q Okay. Grand Jury Exhibit 20. Do you 24 recognize that? 25 A That's one the trucks that was there. I 722 1 think it's Mark Sherrill's. 2 Q Grand Jury Exhibit 19. 3 A That was the other one. I am not sure 4 whose that is. 5 Q Do you know who is driving it? 6 A That might have been the one -- I don't 7 know if Mark was driving that or Nick Hernandez was 8 driving that. 9 Q Okay. And who were the individuals in 10 that photograph, Grand Jury Exhibit 19? 11 A Billy Wolin again on the excavator. My 12 dad. And that looks like Mark Sherrill. 13 Q Okay. Did your dad tell you he 14 surreptitiously taped people at the City Building 15 Department? 16 A I -- I'm -- I've heard something about a 17 tape, but I don't know when or... 18 Q Heard from whom? 19 A I think I just -- I'm trying to think when 20 I heard it. I think it was the day you guys come to the 21 house. I don't know if you were there. The day they 22 came through the house. I remember them saying -- Roland 23 said they took some little tape. 24 Q Tell the newspaper some day I wasn't 25 there. Okay? 723 1 A I don't know if you were there or not. 2 Q Did you see me there? 3 A I did not see you there. 4 Q You were there? 5 A Yeah, but they wouldn't let me go in. 6 Q They would only let you go into the front 7 room? 8 A No. 9 Q Not even the house? 10 A They let me go in. They let me take my 11 little girl to the bathroom. They finally let me go in 12 and pick up the phone in the kitchen area. That's as far 13 as they let me go. 14 Q You were in some entryway or breezeway? 15 A Sitting on the front steps. 16 Q You weren't there where when the warrant 17 began, correct? 18 A Correct. 19 Q Okay. So somebody said something about 20 some tape, but you don't remember what day? 21 A I think it was that night. Roland had 22 said to my dad they took some little tape. 23 Q And so had your dad came back from his 24 trip to Vegas? 25 A Right. 724 1 Q And you and Roland and your dad -- 2 A Uh-huh. 3 Q Who else was there? 4 A Oh, June. Pretty sure June was there. 5 Q Nadine? 6 A I don't know if Nadine was there or not. 7 She might have been. And probably my three-year-old 8 little girl. 9 Q Okay. And Roland said, Dad, this is a 10 list of what they took. Correct? 11 A Yeah. I think he did have the list. I 12 think Roland did. I think I had the warrant; Roland had 13 the list. 14 Q And Roland said: What's the little tape, 15 Dad? 16 A No. He said that -- Roland said he walked 17 into the bedroom and they took a little tape out of the 18 your desk or your dresser drawer. 19 Q And what did your dad say about that? 20 A He laughed. 21 Q He did? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q That's all he said? Ha, ha, ha? 24 A Pretty much, yeah. I think he shrugged 25 his shoulders and laughed a little bit. 725 1 Q Did he tell you what the tape was? 2 A I don't recall. 3 Q You don't recall? 4 A No. I don't remember if he said what it 5 was. 6 Q These Grand Jurors are pretty tough. I am 7 asking you, take a minute or two and think about what 8 your dad said. 9 A Yeah, I remember him laughing about it. I 10 don't remember what was said about it. All I remember, 11 he -- I don't even know -- according to that picture I 12 can see from here, it was a little tape. 13 Q This had been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 14 No. 7. 15 Do you recognize that chest of drawers? 16 A Looks like my dad's dresser. 17 Q It's kind of a junk drawer in the 18 photograph? 19 A Yeah, looks like it. 20 Q Says 2A on the photograph? 21 A Correct. 22 Q You see that little tape recorder? 23 A Yeah. 24 Q Have you seen that before? 25 A Probably. 726 1 Q Where? 2 A Probably in that drawer. 3 Q You been in your dad's drawers before? 4 A No. I have stood there with him. 5 Q He said, Look at all this school stuff in 6 here. Got my Varnes? 7 A No. I probably been in there while he is 8 grabbing something. I don't know. I have seen a couple 9 of them; not all of them. 10 Q Grand Jury Exhibit No. 6. My mistake. 11 Grand Jury Exhibit No. 8. That little tape doesn't mean 12 anything to you? 13 A No. Shows somebody holding a little 14 tape. Looks like the one out of that recorder. 15 Q Okay. We are going to keep going for 20 16 more minutes or so and then take a lunch break. And 17 there will be questions for you after lunch. I am trying 18 to go quickly. I don't think we are going to finish. 19 A Okay. 20 Q So that day after the search warrant at 21 your dad's house, there was a powwow? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q And best of your recollection, you, June, 24 Roland, your dad, your three-year-old? 25 A Yeah. Possibly Nadine. I am not sure if 727 1 she was there or not. That's the ones I can remember. 2 Q And then how long did this meeting last? 3 A Probably, I'd say -- I don't know. Maybe 4 an hour or so. I am not sure. 5 Q What topics were covered? 6 A About how you ruined his trip. 7 Q How who ruined his trip? 8 A The D.A.'s Office, I guess. Whoever come 9 in and searched the house. We talked about how he 10 couldn't believe they searched the house. 11 And then he said he was going to go around 12 and look and see what they took. And he was mad that 13 the -- whatever, the receipt, it didn't say exactly what 14 you guys took. It said, Miscellaneous Documents. He 15 said, What the hell is miscellaneous documents? That 16 could mean anything. 17 And then I think we talked -- I think I 18 said, I think I overheard 'em talking that they were 19 going over to Mark and Connie Sherrill's. And he said -- 20 he might have even tried to call them to see if they had 21 been over there. 22 Q Okay. That took an hour? 23 A I don't know. Maybe longer, maybe less. 24 Q Okay. And you discussed the things that 25 were on list, correct? 728 1 A I remember he read through the list. I 2 night have read through it. 3 Q Did you chat about the videotape? 4 A Oh, yeah. The videotape. 5 Q What about the videotape was discussed? 6 A That -- I think he said he had already 7 given you guys a copy of it. Then he said it had the 8 kids' akido, my nephew's akido on it. I think there was 9 one other thing on it besides -- there is destruction of 10 the gas station, the akido, and I think he said there was 11 one other thing on it. But I am not sure. 12 Q Grand Jury Exhibit 51. You recognize the 13 location of that photo? 14 A Yeah, it's my dad's office. 15 Q Kind of in the center a little bit to the 16 right are two cars. 17 Do you recognize those cars? 18 A Yeah. That's, I think it's -- I believe 19 it's a '34 Ford and '57 T-bird. 20 Q Who owns those cars, if you know? 21 A I am not sure. Probably KRL. 22 Q Does your dad own any cars? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Okay. This has been marked Grand Jury 25 Exhibit 52. 729 1 There is a photo in the far right corner. 2 A Yeah. That's a family photo. 3 Q Family photo? 4 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q Family cars? 6 A Well, that's the '57 T-bird there. So 7 that probably KRL's. And that is, I think, Roland's 8 Corvette. Might be KRL's, too. I don't know. But 9 Roland drives it. 10 Q That's a '72? 11 A No. It's a '67, I believe. 12 Q Okay. It's been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 13 53. 14 If you know, is that fax machine KRL's 15 or -- 16 A I don't know. 17 Q You don't have any idea? 18 A I have no idea. 19 Q Okay. So you had this discussion. It 20 lasted an hour, an hour and a half. Besides the list not 21 being specific enough for your father, did he have any 22 comments? 23 A Yeah. 24 Q And what were those? 25 A June was mad. She was made mad because 730 1 they had paid somebody to clean the carpets that day and 2 the carpets were still wet. She had said, I thought this 3 weekend would be a good weekend because no one would be 4 here, and ended up having all sorts of people walking 5 through. 6 That's about all I can remember. 7 Q Okay. What about Roland? What did he 8 have to say? 9 A The way they were talking about that list, 10 pretty much. They brought up the, videotape. Like I 11 said, that little tiny tape. That's about all I 12 remember. 13 Q All he did was laugh about the little 14 tape? 15 A Roland -- Roland told my dad. My dad, 16 yeah, that's all I remember him doing, was laughing about 17 it. 18 Q He didn't tell you what was on the tape? 19 A I think he said there was nothing on 20 there. 21 Q He didn't tell you he taped City staff 22 without letting him know? 23 A He didn't tell me that, no. 24 Q Have you ever heard that before today? 25 A Before today, I don't think so. 731 1 Q Think hard about that. Has anybody told 2 you he was taping City staff? 3 A Has anyone told me? 4 Q Yeah. 5 A I don't believe so. 6 Q Okay. Could you give us a list of your 7 dad's phone numbers that you know, please. 8 A A list of 'em? 9 Q Sure. 10 A You mean, at the house? 11 Q House, fax, car phones. 12 A 296-4196. And I think another one in the 13 office is 296-1510. 14 Q Okay. His car phone? 15 A I could not tell you. 16 Q Your mom's car phone? 17 A Could not tell you. 18 Q I mean June's. I apologize. 19 A I understand. 20 I don't know. I might have them written 21 down somewhere. I don't know offhand. 22 Q Your home phone? 23 A My home phone, xxx-xxxx. 24 Q When you owned a quarter of KRL, did you 25 ever write checks on KRL's accounts? 732 1 A I don't think -- I don't know if I could 2 sign checks then. I don't know if I was on the checking 3 account. 4 Q So you owned something and you couldn't 5 sign checks? 6 A Not that I remember. 7 Q But you paid taxes? 8 A Yeah. I know there was taxes in my name. 9 Q If you get tax refunds, do you get to keep 10 them? Or do you have to put them back in KRL? 11 A I think they always owed. 12 Q When you say they always owed, was that 13 June and Bob or -- 14 A No. KRL. 15 Q Okay. Two days ago, you had a sit-down, 16 bunch of people at the table, and you know one guy's last 17 name was Paul. Your dad showed paperwork. 18 A Yeah. 19 Q The other person you never met? 20 A I don't know -- they introduced me. I 21 can't remember. It was Will or Mel -- it's the first 22 time I had ever seen him. He was friends with that Paul 23 guy. 24 Q And what kind of papers were spread on the 25 table? 733 1 A There -- when I got there, they had 2 already -- it was on a different table. Just a file and 3 a bunch of papers about -- trying to think what was even 4 there. I think about evidence. And I know my dad had 5 that permit, had a file with that permit. And I think 6 copies of stuff out of the newspaper. 7 Q Your dad kind of helps people write those 8 articles to the newspaper. Is that your understanding? 9 A No. 10 Q Have you ever seen this twelve-pager that 11 he sent to the guy in the paper today, something 12 something Brown? Have you seen that little document? 13 A Have I seen it? 14 Q Yeah. 15 A I seen the one in the paper today. I read 16 that. 17 Q Have you seen the documents that your dad 18 forwards to these people writing letters to the editor so 19 they will write letters to the editor? Did your dad tell 20 you he did that? 21 A No. 22 Q Did he tell you he used the fax machine: 23 Look at these 15 pages, please. Write an article to the 24 editor? 25 A I don't know nothing about that. 734 1 Q Okay. Your dad doesn't seem to have a 2 checking account. Do you have any idea why not? 3 A No. 4 Q Your dad does have some kind of account in 5 San Francisco at a Wells Fargo, but we can't figure out 6 what that is. 7 Do you know what that is? 8 A No. 9 Q Does your mom have a checking account? 10 A June? 11 Q Yeah. I'm sorry. I apologize. 12 A No problem. 13 I don't know. 14 Q So, say you get a birthday present. Who 15 gives you the birthday present? 16 A Who gives it to me? 17 Q Yeah, check. KRL? 18 A I don't know. I don't think I have gotten 19 a check in a long time for a birthday present. 20 Q Okay. So your meeting two days ago, four 21 people, bunch of papers, shows you the permit. You don't 22 know who they are. 23 What else was discussed? Your testimony 24 today? 25 A No. 735 1 Q So far we have two conversations about the 2 underground storage tank. We have search warrant 3 conversation, where everybody was at your house and you 4 guys chatted, then we have the one two days ago. 5 Let's say, May of 1998, right when the 6 tank came out, the next day or two. Before we get into 7 the specifics of how come you told Investigator Hall that 8 you weren't there and then you show up on the video. 9 Sunday, did you work? 10 A Sunday after the thing? 11 Q Yeah, the next day. 12 A I don't think so. I am not sure. 13 Q Yeah. That's consistent. Most people say 14 it was just Sherrill, Wolin, your dad and Nick. 15 So you don't think you were there on 16 Sunday? 17 A I don't think I was there on Sunday. 18 Q You don't remember removing any 19 underground piping or things like that after the tank 20 came out of the ground? 21 A Oh, no. I don't remember being there on 22 Sunday at all. I might have stopped -- I don't remember 23 stopping by. I remember driving by, but I don't think I 24 stopped there at all. 25 Q So your dad said, Come by and help on 736 1 Friday. And that's when you took the stuff to Bossi 2 Ranch? 3 A Yeah. I don't know if he asked me to come 4 by and help. Like I say, I was coming home from work. 5 His truck was sitting there. I just pulled in. 6 Q At that point, did he talk about, We are 7 taking the tanks out tomorrow? 8 A He just said the whole thing is coming 9 down tomorrow. 10 Q Did he say that tanks were coming out 11 tomorrow? 12 A I don't -- I don't know. 13 Q This is on Friday. 14 A Yeah. I don't know. 15 Q Did he talk about what he was going to do 16 with the tanks? 17 A No. 18 Q Your conversation with your dad was before 19 the demolition when he told you, if you can make a buck, 20 make a buck? 21 A Yeah. 22 Q Okay. So sometime before Friday and 23 Saturday, you had a discussion regarding he was going to 24 take the tank out of the ground? 25 A Before what? Before? 737 1 Q I will rephrase it. 2 A Okay. 3 Q Friday and Saturday. You worked on the 4 gas station a little bit on Friday? 5 A Correct. 6 Q Quite a bit on Saturday? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Before that, was this conversation about 9 your dad said, I don't want anything. I will just take 10 it all to the dump. Correct? Or was it while you were 11 working? 12 A I am not sure. Might have been -- most 13 likely, it was beforehand. I think it took quite a 14 while. After Roland said they were going to buy it, I 15 think it took quite a while to get everything lined up. 16 Q A month or so? 17 A Yeah, could have been. 18 Q Then before that, your dad said -- and you 19 came up with this idea about the tank? 20 A Correct. 21 Q Okay. And did you go to anybody at work 22 and ask them if they wanted a tank? 23 A I went to -- I was headed to Lou's office, 24 and the mechanic was standing there. And I asked him, 25 What do you know about the fuel tank out here? 738 1 He said, It's a brand-new double-lined 2 plastic fuel tank, whatever. 3 And I said, Oh. Well, that blew that 4 idea. I turned around. I never even went to Lou's 5 office. 6 Q Who was the mechanic? 7 A Bill Skidmore. 8 Q Bill Skidmore. 9 Do you know how to spell his name? 10 A S-K-I-D-M-O-R-E, I believe. 11 Q This was before the demolition? 12 A Yeah, I believe so. 13 Q Your dad knew he was taking the tank out 14 before the demolition? 15 A Yeah, he said the whole thing was coming 16 out. 17 Q Did he specifically mention the tank? 18 A I'm pretty sure, yeah. He said that there 19 was the tank and the gas pumps and whatever, the air 20 compressor and whatever else is in there. 21 Q Did he tell you he had gone to the County 22 and asked about closing the tank in place? 23 A No, not that I remember. 24 Q So since May through this morning -- is 25 this morning the last time you talked to your dad? 739 1 A Yeah. 2 Q From May through this morning, did your 3 dad ever tell you he had gone to the County and asked 4 about closing the tank in place? 5 A To the County? I know he said he went to 6 the City. I don't know -- I don't remember if he said 7 anything about the County. I know he has been to the 8 City. 9 Q Do you remember him ever saying he went to 10 the County? 11 A I -- no, I don't recall that. 12 Q Okay. So then you are there Saturday, you 13 are knocking down the building. You are loading trucks. 14 Are you doing traffic control? 15 A I don't know. I might have. I am not 16 sure. 17 Q Did your dad tell you that he was told by 18 Cal-Trans that he couldn't load trucks on 49? 19 A Yeah. I think I do remember that. 20 Because he said they couldn't be out blocking traffic on 21 49. 22 Q So he called someone. They told him he 23 needed a permit. Did he tell you that? 24 A No. He just said -- he said something 25 about, if Cal-Trans or whoever was going to get involved, 740 1 they had to have a traffic control engineer or something 2 like that. 3 Q Take a couple weeks to get a permit. Did 4 he tell you that? 5 A He said -- no. He said they had to 6 take -- they had to figure out where to set the pylons up 7 and flag men and stuff. They decided -- I did ask him 8 why they were loading on the hill. He said because they 9 can't load it on the 49. I guess that's Smith Street. 10 Q Traffic engineer permit. He didn't tell 11 you anything like that? 12 A Like I said, I think he did mention 13 something about traffic engineer. I don't know nothing 14 about a permit. 15 Q Were you present at some point when 16 Sherrill volunteered not to have the stuff go out to the 17 dump any more? 18 A I don't know. I believe they all went to 19 the dump. 20 Q To this day, you believe all the trucks 21 went to the dump? 22 A That I can remember, yeah. 23 Q So if a truck left Rex and Sutter Street 24 at 3:30 and drove to Ione and drove back, what's your 25 guess how long that would take? 741 1 A I don't know. Half hour down, probably a 2 half hour back, something like that. 3 Q Do you remember the trucks coming back 4 every 15 minutes Saturday afternoon? 5 A I don't know how continuously it worked. 6 Q But your testimony, as of today, you 7 didn't know that the stuff was being hauled to the 8 Georgia Pacific Mill? 9 A To Georgia Pacific? Yeah, that's the 10 first I heard of that. 11 Q And it's your testimony today that you 12 didn't know that the dirt was going to Mark Sherrill's 13 property on Highway 88? 14 A I don't. No, I don't even know -- I had 15 to have been there. I don't know nothing about the 16 dirt. I wasn't paying attention. They were just loading 17 trucks. 18 Q Was the stuff clean they were loading in 19 the trucks? 20 A It was just all the -- whatever, what that 21 picture showed. All the metal and concrete and dirt and 22 pipe and building and lights, whatever the building was. 23 Q Did you smell the gas in the soil? 24 A No. I didn't smell anything. 25 Q Okay. So you got there. You don't know 742 1 whether it was morning or afternoon on Saturday? 2 A It was before lunch. I did go to lunch 3 with 'em. I know that much. It was before lunch. 4 Q Who went to lunch? 5 A Bill and Sylvia Wolin, my dad and June. 6 Trying to think who I sat with. Nick, Mark Sherrill and 7 Billy Wolin. 8 Q Where did you guys go to lunch? 9 A Mel's. 10 Q Did you talk about what you were going to 11 do that afternoon? 12 A I think we talked about the weather. 13 Q Did you talk about pulling the tank? 14 A I remember talking about pulling the tank 15 that day, but I don't know if it was then or after. 16 Q Later? 17 A Later, yeah. 18 Q So you don't remember Mark Sherrill 19 telling your dad that it's 30 bucks a yard to the dump 20 and it's free to my property? 21 A No, I don't recall that. 22 Q Okay. Then towards the end of the day, 23 someone makes a decision to go ahead and pull the 24 underground storage tank. 25 Who made that decision? 743 1 A I do not know. 2 Q Were you there when that decision was 3 made? 4 A I was there when they are were trying to 5 pull it. I don't know who decided. Yeah, I guess. I 6 don't know who. When they were figuring -- when I was 7 there, they were trying to pull it and break it loose. 8 As far as I remember, that's all that they did. 9 Q You went to lunch with June, correct? 10 A Yeah, she was there. 11 Q Do you remember her taking the videotape? 12 A Yeah, she did say she was videotaping 13 everything. 14 Q Do you remember, she said everything? 15 A I think she was sitting across the street. 16 She might have been sitting above. I think she said she 17 was standing there videotaping it. 18 Q Do you remember seeing the video camera a 19 few times? 20 A Maybe, yeah. I don't know. I don't 21 recall seeing it. I am sure I did. 22 Q Okay. So it's about three minutes until 23 lunch. Could you go ahead and explain to us exactly at 24 what point you left the site. 25 A As far as I can remember, when they -- I 744 1 remember they hooked onto the tank and tried pulling it. 2 It wouldn't move. We got back and down and dug along the 3 sides of it. I think they dug more around in front of 4 it. 5 And it started pouring down rain. And I 6 am pretty sure Bill Wolin Senior was there. And he said 7 something about, Well, if it won't come up, we can take a 8 water truck and fill up the hole behind the tank and it 9 will float it and pop it up. 10 And then I remember it started pouring 11 down rain super hard. I think I took off right then. 12 Q I think I took off? Or I remember taking 13 off? 14 A I am pretty sure that's when I took off. 15 I believe I took off. 16 Q Before the tank came out of the hole? 17 A Yeah, I think so. 18 Q You have watched this video? 19 A No, I have never seen it. 20 Q After lunch, we will play the last five 21 minutes of it. 22 It appears to me -- but, of course, I am 23 not the one testifying here -- that you were there after 24 the tank was ready to come out of the ground. 25 A I do not remember. I will have to watch 745 1 the video, I guess. I don't remember. 2 Q You left before it was loaded onto a 3 truck? 4 A I believe so. 5 Q I believe so. I am going to strike that 6 answer as non-responsive. 7 A As far as I can remember, I left before it 8 was on a truck. 9 Q How many times has your dad told you to be 10 evasive today? 11 A He hasn't. 12 Q Not once? 13 A Not that I can remember, I mean. 14 MR. IREY: I think it's a good time, Mr. Foreman, 15 if it's a good time for the Grand Jurors. 16 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. I am going to read an 17 admonition to you before we take a recess here. 18 You are admonished not to reveal to any 19 person except as directed by the Court what questions 20 were asked or what responses were given or any other 21 matters concerning the nature or subject of the Grand 22 Jury's investigation that you learned during your 23 appearance before the Grand Jury. 24 This admonition continues unless and until 25 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 746 1 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 2 punishable as contempt of court. 3 This does not prevent you from discussing 4 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 5 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 6 Grand Jury. 7 I need you to sign and date that I read 8 that to you, please. Right there. It's the same thing I 9 just read to you. 10 THE WITNESS: So this says, as directed by 11 Court. This is a court order then? I can't talk to my 12 wife about this? 13 THE FOREPERSON: It says you are not to respond. 14 You are not to talk about this with anybody but your 15 attorney, if you have an attorney that's advising you on 16 this subject. 17 THE WITNESS: I mean, this is the Court is making 18 me do this? 19 MR. IREY: We will get you a copy of this and you 20 can ask an attorney. 21 THE WITNESS: I was wondering if -- is the Judge 22 saying I have to sign this? Is this something you are 23 saying I have to sign? 24 THE FOREPERSON: This is a court document. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. What is today? 747 1 THE FOREPERSON: 16th. 2 THE WITNESS: But that's what I am asking. You 3 haven't answered me right. 4 MR. IREY: We would if we could. We can't give 5 you legal advice. The Foreman can't give you legal 6 advice. It says what it says. 7 I am offering you a copy of it in writing 8 so, in case you have any questions about it, it might 9 help you in making your decision whether or not to talk 10 to anybody else, including your wife. 11 THE WITNESS: All right. 12 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 13 MR. IREY: Would you like a copy? 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah, please. 15 THE FOREPERSON: I will go ahead and read the 16 admonition to the Jurors. 17 MR. IREY: Mr. Hall will get it for you. He has 18 to read one more document to the Grand Jurors. So if you 19 come back at 1:30. 20 THE WITNESS: 1:30? 21 THE FOREPERSON: 1:15. 22 THE WITNESS: Do you know how long it's going to 23 be? 24 GRAND JUROR: No. I want 1:30. 25 THE FOREPERSON: I thought we agreed to go to 45 748 1 minutes. Okay. 1:30. I'm sorry. I thought we agreed. 2 MR. IREY: I have more questions. 3 THE WITNESS: If it's not over by 2:30, can we 4 do this another day? I have to be at work at 3:00. 5 MR. IREY: We will go from 1:30 until ten minutes 6 to work. 7 THE WITNESS: I have to go home and change. 8 GRAND JUROR: Do that now. 9 MR. IREY: Maybe you can do that now. There are 10 going to be six people here at 1:30 that want you to 11 testify. We will keep going. 12 THE WITNESS: You kept me yesterday, all day 13 yesterday, or Friday. 14 MR. IREY: Ron, could you help Mr. Womack with 15 his issues. 16 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. The Grand Jurors are 17 admonished that they are not to form or express any 18 opinions about this case or discuss it among themselves 19 until the Grand Jury receives the case for deliberations. 20 In addition, no inspection of evidence should be 21 conducted without the permission of the Foreperson and on 22 the advice of the prosecuting attorney. 23 A violation of this rule could result in a 24 charge of contempt against a Grand Juror who would 25 investigate or view any matters with regard to this case 749 1 without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 2 We stand in recess until 1:30. 3 (Luncheon recess taken at 12:31 p.m.) 4 ---oOo--- 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 750 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 ---oOo--- 3 (Whereupon, pages 751 - 754 were reported and transcribed, but are under separate 4 confidential cover.) 5 ---oOo--- 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 755 1 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Womack, I will remind you, 2 you are still under oath. Thank you. 3 Q BY MR. IREY: Prior to you becoming 4 quarter partner sometime in the late '80s in KRL, who 5 were the partners before you? 6 A Kim, Roland and Larry. 7 Q Okay. Did you buy into the partnership? 8 A I don't know how I was acquired into it. 9 I was just acquired into it. I don't think I was old 10 enough. I mean, I wasn't paying attention. I was 13 or 11 14 or something. 12 Q Do you have a file cabinet drawer at home 13 with KRL paperwork in it? 14 A Do I? 15 Q Yes. 16 A No, I don't have nothing with KRL. I 17 don't think so. 18 Q Do you have anything from any time when 19 you were an owner of KRL at home? 20 A Possibly. You know, not that I know right 21 off the top of my head. 22 Q So if the Grand Jury subpoenaed all KRL 23 records, you would provide those? 24 A Yeah. As far as I know, you already have 25 them all. 756 1 Q How would you know that? 2 A Because you said -- you or your little 3 thing said you took all the paperwork out of my dad's 4 office or KRL office. 5 Q What little thing? 6 A The -- I told you, your receipt that I 7 seen that night said Miscellaneous Documents KRL. 8 Q Okay. So Kimberly left the partnership, 9 it's your understanding. When and why? 10 A I don't know when. And I am not for sure 11 why. 12 Q Okay. Are you -- do you have any idea why 13 she left the partnership? 14 A I have heard her jokingly say it was a 15 pain to drive up here. But I don't know what was going 16 on. I don't pay attention to that stuff. It doesn't 17 involve me. 18 Q Do you know if it was about the same time 19 you left the partnership? 20 A I couldn't tell you. I wasn't talking -- 21 when I left the partnership, I wasn't talking to, I don't 22 think, anyone in the family. 23 Q And that's because the person you married 24 didn't like your family? Or your family didn't like the 25 person you married? 757 1 A My family did not like the idea of me 2 getting married and they didn't know the person I was 3 getting married to. 4 Q Did you quit school? 5 A I ended up -- yeah, I quit school, too. 6 That also made 'em mad. 7 Q So it's somebody you met at UOP? 8 A No. 9 Q Somebody you met in Stockton? 10 A Ione, matter of fact. 11 Q What? 12 A Ione. 13 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 14 59. Have you ever seen that document? 15 A Maybe. I don't know. I don't remember 16 seeing it. 17 Q Okay. Do you recognize the signature of 18 Kimberly J. Moore? 19 A Yeah. I think that's hers. 20 Q What about Roland Womack? 21 A Yeah, it's him. 22 Q And who is Michael Moore? 23 A Kim's husband. 24 Q Okay. Paragraph 3. Could you read that 25 into the record. 758 1 A "That pursuant to Section 4.03 of said 2 partnership, the partnership interest shall be sold for 3 the sum of $100." 4 Q And what's the date of signature? 5 A March 21st, 1994. 6 Q And who was that sold to, Paragraph 5? 7 A Roland Womack. 8 Q For how much? 9 A $100. 10 Q So the same year, within a month of when 11 you signed the document, Kimberly signed? 12 A Yeah, I guess. 13 Q So what's Roland doing with all this money 14 now? 15 A I couldn't tell you. 16 Q He is not paying you to work on his 17 property, is he? 18 A We take it out in trade. 19 Q What's the trade? 20 A Dental work. 21 Q So you don't have any dental insurance 22 from Owens Illinois? 23 A Yeah. It's not the best, but... 24 Q Okay. Would you recognize Larry's 25 signature if I showed it to you? 759 1 A His changes all the time, but probably. 2 Q This RROS company that was in the paper 3 today, does that have anything to do with a person named 4 Moseman? 5 A I think so. I think I have heard that, 6 yeah. I think it's his sons or something. 7 Q Moseman and your dad used to do business 8 in the Sacramento area a long time ago, correct? 9 A Yeah, I have heard that, that's how they 10 met or something. 11 Q Cement? 12 A Yeah, my dad was in the cement business. 13 I think that's how they met. Moseman was a bridge 14 builder or something. 15 Q So your dad would be a supplier; Moseman 16 would be a contractor? 17 A Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I am not for 18 sure. 19 Q Did your father have a contractor's 20 license? 21 A He owned a ready mix. 22 Q Do you know if he had a contractor's 23 license? 24 A I don't. That was a long time ago. 25 Q Who was acting as the coordinator -- who 760 1 was acting as the coordinator of the demolition? 2 A Of the gas station? 3 Q Yeah. 4 A I would say probably my dad. Roland was 5 gone. 6 Q Have you had a conversation with Roland? 7 Did he hire the excavator? 8 A I don't ever ask. 9 Q Have you had a conversation with Roland 10 about who provided the equipment that date? 11 A Have I had -- no, I seen who provided the 12 equipment. I know whose equipment it was. I seen who 13 was running it. I figured it was theirs. 14 Q Do you know who called and asked for that 15 equipment to be delivered? 16 A No. I don't. 17 Q Did your dad ever tell you he is the one 18 that got Billy Junior to work there? 19 A I don't remember him ever saying that was 20 him, per se. I never asked and never thought about it. 21 I know he uses Wolins a lot for stuff. So does Roland. 22 That's their family friends or were or whatever. 23 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 24 No. 60. Second page is a verification. Do you recognize 25 the two signatures, bottom left? 761 1 A That's Roland's. And I am assuming it's 2 Nadine's. I don't think I ever paid attention to hers. 3 Q When was this signed? 4 A 4/6 of '98. 5 Q How does the verification read? 6 A "Roland E. Womack and Nadine Womack 7 individually declare I am a partner in partnership 8 named the foregoing statement of partnership. I 9 read the foregoing statement of partnership, know 10 it's contents and acknowledge to my knowledge such 11 contents are true." 12 Q Okay. And the front page is Voluntary 13 Withdrawal from Partnership, pretty similar form to the 14 other two you have looked at today? 15 A Yeah. 16 Q Okay. And that Paragraph 3. Could you 17 read that, please. 18 A "That Larry Womack wishes to make a gift 19 of his partnership to his sister-in-law, Nadine Womack." 20 Q And 4? 21 A "That Nadine Womack, spouse of Roland D. 22 Womack, partner of KRL Partnership, has agreed to accept 23 said interest." 24 Q Okay. So let's do the math. You gave a 25 quarter to Roland. Larry gave a quarter to Nadine. 762 1 A Mm-hmm. 2 Q Kimberly gave a quarter to Roland. 3 A Yeah. 4 Q So that's three-quarters Roland, 5 one-quarter Nadine, zero June, zero Robert? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q Has your dad filed bankruptcy in the last 8 few years? 9 A Not that I know of. 10 Q Has your dad talked about filing 11 bankruptcy in the last few years? 12 A Not to me. 13 Q Have you filed bankruptcy in the last few 14 years? 15 A Me? 16 Q Yeah. 17 A No. 18 Q What's the name of your accountant? 19 A Of my accountant? 20 Q KRL's accountant? 21 A I have -- couldn't tell you. 22 Q Where were you signing these documents 23 regarding taxes and stuff? 24 A When I was in it, we went to Sacramento 25 somewhere. I am not sure where. I remember I have been 763 1 to an accountant's office in Sacramento when I was in 2 KRL. I don't know who it was or where it was. 3 Q I think right before lunch, you were 4 telling us about how it just started to rain right before 5 the tank came out of the ground. 6 Do you recall that testimony? 7 A Yeah. It rained all day. It started in 8 real hard at the end. 9 Q Who was present when it started raining 10 really hard? 11 A Oh, I -- I guess Billy Wolin was there. I 12 was there. I don't know if June was there or not. I am 13 sure she was. I am sure my dad was there. 14 Q I'm sorry. I have to clarify. I don't 15 know if June was there. I am sure she was? 16 A Well, she ran, got doughnuts one time. 17 She was doing errands in the afternoon. 18 Q And do you remember if she -- 19 A I don't know. I wasn't paying attention. 20 Q Okay. So how did your dad get there that 21 day? 22 A He drove, I think. I don't know. He was 23 already there when I got there. 24 Q What vehicle did he drive in? 25 A I am not sure even what he had there. 764 1 Q What KRL-owned vehicles did you see that 2 day at the underground storage tank demolition? 3 A I don't know if it's his or KRL's. I 4 think the Navigator was there. I am not sure about any 5 other ones. 6 Q Who drives the Navigator most often? 7 A It's probably my dad. 8 Q So Navigator was there. Was the Lincoln 9 town car there? 10 A I am not sure. 11 Q Do you know if June and your father came 12 together? 13 A I am not sure. Like I said, they were 14 there before I was. 15 Q Okay. So you knew this tape was taken 16 from their house during the search warrant, correct? 17 A Correct. 18 Q Did you know prior to that date that 19 another tape had been given to the District Attorney's 20 Office? 21 A Yeah, my dad said he had given -- 22 Q Tell you anything about that tape? 23 A Just said he gave a copy of the tape that 24 June made that day. 25 Q He told you it was a copy of the tape? 765 1 A I think he said it was a copy, yeah. 2 Q Did he ever tell you he edited the tape? 3 A No. 4 Q Not one time? 5 A He never told me he edited any tape. 6 Q Okay. So it pours rain. You get in your 7 truck and you leave. Anybody else leave at the same time 8 you left? 9 A Like I said, I wasn't paying attention. I 10 was trying to get out from under the rain. As far as I 11 can remember, we were -- I am trying to think who was 12 even still there. I couldn't tell you. To be honest 13 with you, I could not tell you. 14 Q Go through the list of who was there an 15 hour before. Was Nick there? 16 A He was coming and going. He was driving 17 the truck. I don't know if he was there. 18 Q Was anybody driving the truck when the 19 tank was about to come out of the ground? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Would looking at a tape help you remember? 22 A It might, yeah. 23 Q Okay. Before showing you the tape, 24 though, we want to have your best recollection before we 25 refresh your recollection. 766 1 Was your dad there? 2 A When I left? 3 Q Yeah. 4 A Yeah. Pretty sure he was. 5 Q Was June there when you left? 6 A I am not sure. 7 Q Was Mark Sherrill there? 8 A When I left, I'd say probably. Because I 9 think he helped me dig some of the gravel off the top of 10 the tank. 11 Q Anybody else? Billy? 12 A Billy? Yeah, I am sure Billy was there. 13 He was driving the excavator. 14 Q Were you there when the chain broke the 15 first time when you tried to pull the tank out of the 16 ground? 17 A I don't remember a chain breaking. I 18 remember they had a hard time trying to pull it out of 19 the ground. It wouldn't move. 20 Q Okay. So you left. Did anybody say 21 good-bye to you when you left? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Don't you think it's a little peculiar 24 that the most difficult part of the day, you decided to 25 leave? 767 1 A To me, the most difficult of part of the 2 day was digging. I did that. 3 Q With a shovel? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q When you were down in that hole, did you 6 smell gasoline? 7 A No, there was no fumes at all that I can 8 remember. I mean, I didn't smell anything I can 9 remember. 10 Q Did your dad walk you through -- did your 11 dad tell you he walked other people through the story 12 they were supposed to tell in front of the Grand Jury? 13 A No. 14 Q Did your dad ever tell you what you were 15 supposed to tell at the Grand Jury? 16 A No. 17 Q Did your dad ever tell you what you were 18 supposed to tell people if they asked about the tank? 19 A No. 20 Q Not once? 21 A Not that I can remember. Why would he 22 tell me what to say? 23 Q Did you talk to him at lunch time today? 24 A At lunch, yeah. I called him and said I 25 was still here. 768 1 Q Okay. Has anybody told you that Mark 2 Sherrill told us it went to Mark Sherrill's ranch? 3 A Has anyone told me that Mark Sherrill? 4 He -- the only one that -- Ron Hall told me that Dave 5 Mason III, III, said it went to Owens Illinois the day he 6 subpoenaed me. 7 Q In the last two weeks, do you know Mark 8 Sherrill has reached an agreement, correct? 9 A No, I don't know. I haven't talked to 10 Mark Sherrill. 11 Q You haven't talked to your dad? 12 A Not about Mark Sherrill. 13 Q What about Billy Wolin? 14 A I did see something in the paper about 15 Wolins, but I don't know if Billy was part of that. 16 Q Did you talk to your dad about it? 17 A I think I asked him why did Wolins have 18 their -- why did it say they pled guilty or something 19 when my subpoena didn't have Wolins name on it, had my 20 dad's and Mark Sherrill's and I think Dave Mason's. 21 MR. IREY: Just a moment. I am going to try to 22 figure this out. I apologize again to the Grand Jurors. 23 Q What else did you and your dad talk about 24 at lunch? 25 A I didn't have lunch with him. 769 1 Q What else did you and your father talk 2 about when you took a break at lunch? 3 A I told him that I had to sign a paper 4 swearing to secrecy, I guess, that I would have to talk 5 to an attorney, and that I was here until whatever time, 6 12:30, and had to be back at 1:30. And that I had to 7 change to get ready to go to work. 8 Q Did you talk about what you were asked in 9 front of the Grand Jury? 10 A No. Because you guys said I couldn't. 11 Q Okay. So when you left the site that day, 12 where did you go? 13 A I think I went home. 14 Q Do you remember where you went? 15 A No. I said I think I went home. 16 Q Strike that as non-responsive. 17 Do you remember what you did when you left 18 505 Sutter Street the day the tank came out of the 19 ground? 20 A As far as I can remember, I went home. 21 Q Who was at home? 22 A Probably my wife and kids. 23 Q What time of day? 24 A It would be afternoon sometime. 25 Q Sunday, you weren't on the site? 770 1 A Not that I can remember. 2 Q And Monday, when your father went into 3 the County to try to get a retroactive -- or try to get 4 some kind of a sampling done, how long after that did 5 your dad call you? 6 A Oh, I don't know. Next time I remember 7 talking to him is, I think I was on graveyard and I 8 drove -- one of the days somebody was there digging the 9 water and pea gravel up. And I stopped real quick and 10 said Hi and asked what was going on. They said they were 11 doing soil tests. That's about it. 12 MR. IREY: We are going to take a 30-second break 13 while everybody is in their chairs. I need to get this 14 video started. 15 (Pause in proceedings.) 16 MR. IREY: I think that's the short tape. I 17 would like to show the underground storage part, please. 18 INVESTIGATOR HALL: Okay. 19 MR. IREY: Mr. Hall, can you put the other tape 20 in and rewind it to the start of the underground storage 21 tank. 22 INVESTIGATOR HALL: Would you like this rewound 23 all the way? 24 MR. IREY: No. Just to the underground storage 25 part, seven or eight minutes playing time. 771 1 INVESTIGATOR HALL: Okay. This is the short 2 version tape. 3 MR. IREY: Is the other one the full version? 4 INVESTIGATOR HALL: I think it's over there. 5 Because this is the search warrant tape. This is the 6 search warrant tape. 7 MR. IREY: Thank you, Mr. Hall. 8 Q While we are waiting for this -- I 9 apologize. 10 What type of hazardous waste or hazardous 11 material training do you have? 12 A I don't think I have any. 13 Q As a courtesy to the Members of the Grand 14 Jury, could you please sit up. 15 A Oh. 16 Q No training? 17 A Not that I know of. 18 Q Handling hazardous materials? 19 A I might have some from work. I work in 20 what's considered hazardous material. 21 Q What training do you have? 22 A I guess whatever they give you there. 23 Q What do they give you there? 24 A Respiratory -- I work with silicas. For 25 silicosis, wear a face mask. 772 1 Q You wear a face mask? 2 A Certain areas, yeah. 3 Q Hard hat? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q Steel-toed boots? 6 A No. 7 Q May 2nd, were you wearing steel-toed 8 boots? 9 A Probably wearing what I have on. 10 Q Were you wearing steel-toed boots? 11 A I don't think so. I don't believe I have 12 any steel-toed boots. 13 Q Were you wearing a hard hat? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 Q Were you wearing a respirator? 16 A I don't believe so. 17 Q Let's try these one more time. 18 Were you wearing a hard hat? 19 A I don't think so. I doubt it. 20 Q Did you have one with you that day? 21 A I might have. 22 Q Okay. So you are shoveling from the top 23 of the underground storage tank, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q And there is water below your feet? 773 1 A Yeah, I think there was a little bit of 2 water accumulating in the bottom of the hole. 3 Q And what was being done with that water, 4 if you recall? 5 A It was in the hole, as far as I remember. 6 Q Do you remember Billy Wolin taking it out 7 and putting it onto the ground? 8 A I don't remember -- well, he was scooping 9 out the hole trying to make it bigger. 10 Q From the side closest to the uphill side? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q And then put a chain on it, pulled it. 13 You don't remember the chain breaking? 14 A No, I don't remember the chain breaking. 15 Q Then he went to the other side, the side 16 closest to 49? 17 A I don't remember him digging on the 49 18 side. I just remember him digging that one hole on the 19 uphill side. 20 Q Do you remember him chaining the tank? 21 A I remember them trying to tug on the 22 tank. I remember it wouldn't move. I don't remember the 23 chain breaking. 24 Q And then you don't remember him scraping 25 from the other side of the tank? 774 1 A No, I don't remember that. 2 Q Do you remember if you were there? 3 A Well, yeah, I know I was there when we 4 were trying to uncover it. 5 Q Okay. Now, were you -- did you leave 6 before the tank came physically out of the ground? 7 A I think they hooked onto it and it broke 8 loose. But I don't remember seeing it up out of the 9 ground. 10 Q Okay. This is a yes or no question. Were 11 you there when the tank came out of the hole? 12 A I can't answer. I don't remember if it 13 come out of the hole or if it was budged or just nudged. 14 Q How many tanks have you seen come out of 15 the ground in your life? 16 A Probably none, I guess. It's nothing 17 important to me. I don't pay attention to stuff like 18 that. 19 Q Anybody tell you it was an explosive 20 hazard that day? 21 A No. 22 Q Did your dad tell you? 23 A No. 24 Q Did your dad tell you that the tank was 25 empty? 775 1 A My dad told me and I had heard -- 2 Q Rephrase that question. 3 Did your dad tell you that day that the 4 tank was empty? 5 A Probably. 6 Q Do you remember your dad telling you the 7 tank was empty? 8 A I don't remember him specifically saying 9 the tank was empty, but he probably did tell me it was 10 empty. 11 Q Were you present when Billy Wolin was 12 questioning him regarding whether or not he had permits 13 to pull the tank? 14 A I don't remember being there. I don't 15 remember -- I remember -- 16 Q Let's say the excavator stopped that day. 17 Billy got out of it to talk to your dad. 18 Did you go across the street to get a 19 burger or something? Or did you stand right next to 20 them? 21 A I don't know. Sometimes I was cleaning up 22 the street, sometimes cleaning up the sidewalk. I did go 23 across the street -- I think June was over there 24 videotaping. I went over there to ask her to go get 25 sodas. I remember standing up above a couple times, up 776 1 by on top, looking down. I couldn't tell you where I was 2 at. 3 Q Okay. What time of day did you learn that 4 you were going to pull the underground storage tank? 5 A When they started doing it. That's when I 6 knew for sure they were going to do it. 7 Q And who were they? 8 A Billy Wolin was the one digging it up. I 9 guess it was all of us. Whoever was standing around. 10 Q Did you have a safety meeting, where you 11 talked about the explosive hazards? 12 A No. There was no explosive hazards that I 13 knew of. 14 Q Have you taken any time to learn 15 subsequent to that? 16 A No. 17 Q Anyone tell you your life was endangered 18 that day? 19 A I didn't feel it was. 20 Q Because you are an expert in hazardous 21 materials? 22 A No. Maybe because I am ignorant in 23 hazardous materials. 24 Q Could you go over the list of your 25 training for us, please. 777 1 A About wearing a hard hat. At work, it's 2 required. You have to or you get written up. 3 Q No. Your training in hazardous materials. 4 A I don't think I have any. 5 Q Ever remove an underground storage tank 6 before? 7 A Not nothing -- no, not that I know of. 8 Q Waste oil tank? 9 A No, no waste oil tanks I know of. 10 Q Have you forgot a lots of things in your 11 life? 12 A Yeah, probably. 13 Q You forgot a lot of your construction 14 jobs? 15 A Yeah. I have never been a full-time. I 16 have -- have just done side jobs. I never been a 17 full-time construction person. 18 Q Okay. When you loaded the tanks -- you 19 weren't there. 20 Was the truck parked on Highway 49 at any 21 point on Saturday the 2nd to load the tank? 22 A I don't know to load the tank. 23 There was -- someone did pull up -- they had to unhook 24 the -- I guess it was the bucket because that thing had a 25 clog. I remember the bucket and I think a roto hammer 778 1 thing come up. 2 They didn't go onto 49, but they kind of 3 pulled up, like, into the area to get those off the 4 trailer. 5 Q Do you remember who that was? 6 A No. I don't. 7 Q Okay. Please give again the list of all 8 the people you remember on site other than Carstensen and 9 police guys. 10 A My dad, myself, Mark Sherrill, Nick, Bill 11 Wolin Senior, Billy Wolin. And that's about the people 12 that stopped by. 13 Q Was Bill Wolin Senior still there when the 14 tank was starting to come out of the ground? 15 A Last time I remember him there is when 16 they tugged on it and it wouldn't move. I remember him 17 saying, We could get a water truck and put water behind 18 it. It might pop up. That's the last time I remember 19 seeing him or talking to him. 20 Q Okay. And you don't remember -- do you 21 remember Bill Wolin Jr. having any discussions with your 22 father that day when the excavator was stopped? 23 A Bill Wolin, Jr. I don't remember him 24 getting off except when I helped him change the -- put 25 the roto hammer on it. 779 1 Q Who put the chain on the tank? 2 A I am not sure. 3 Q Okay. 4 A I do not remember. 5 Q Was it Billy Wolin, Jr.? 6 A Well, he had been on the excavator, so I 7 don't think it could have been him. 8 Q That limits to it Mark Sherrill, yourself, 9 Nick Hernandez or your dad? 10 A Well, I don't think I -- I don't remember 11 doing it. I don't even know if I was paying attention to 12 who was doing it. 13 Q You have never seen any tape before? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you know there was a tape? 16 A Yeah. 17 Q Who told you there was a tape? 18 A My dad said -- I think June even walked by 19 one time. I think my dad and June both said they were 20 videotaping it. I do believe she did walk by with a 21 video camera. 22 Q Okay. 23 A Or I might have -- when I walked over 24 earlier, she might have had it then. 25 Q Okay. You can have a seat over there at 780 1 that table, if you would like. If you don't go through 2 all the papers. 3 Okay. Do you recognize the guy in the 4 green shirt? 5 A Uh, can't see it. 6 Q Do you recognize this individual? 7 A That looks like me. 8 Q This individual? 9 A I can't see that from here. 10 Q Okay. You can scoot your chair right up 11 here or stand or however. 12 A I will stand there. I can't --. 13 Q There are people behind you. If you could 14 kneel down or whatever. 15 A That looks like me standing there. 16 Q Is this the area where the tank was? You 17 see the water? 18 A Yeah. 19 Q Did you see the sheen on the water when it 20 was coming out of the hole? 21 A I didn't see it. I seen it when he was 22 dumping it, something. 23 Q Nick smokes, huh? 24 A I don't know him that well. 25 Q Did you see him smoking around the site 781 1 that day? 2 A I don't remember. 3 Q Okay. This individual? 4 A That looks like -- I think it looks like 5 my dad. 6 Q Okay. The underground storage tank piping 7 that was coming out before the tank came out -- what were 8 you guys doing with that that day? 9 A I think everything went in the trucks. 10 Q Did you triple rinse the pipes? 11 A I think they just loaded them into the 12 truck. 13 Q Did you triple rinse the pipes? 14 A I did not triple rinse those pipes. 15 Q Did you see anybody else triple rinse the 16 pipes? 17 A I did not. 18 Q Did you suck the liquid out of the 19 underground storage tank that day? 20 A I don't even know if there was liquid in 21 it. I did not do it. 22 Q Did you see anyone else? 23 A I did not see anyone else do it. 24 Q In a couple minutes in the video, you and 25 your father are cutting away the piping from the tank, 782 1 correct? 2 A Yeah, I did help them -- I don't know -- 3 yeah, we did. We did cut it. 4 Q The piping that went from the tank toward 5 the former dispenser islands. What did you do with that 6 piping? 7 A I am pretty sure it went in the truck. 8 Q Did you dig it up before or after it went 9 out of the ground? 10 A The pipe was on top of the tank. I think 11 some of that's it right there. 12 Q You put this in the truck? 13 A I believe so. 14 I didn't. I mean, I believe that's where 15 it went. 16 Q You didn't physically toss the pipe in? 17 A No, I don't remember handling it. 18 Q Do you remember tipping the bucket as 19 constructions guys do and loading the pipe on it and have 20 it go into the truck that way? 21 A No. 22 Q Can you see the sheen on the water here? 23 A Yeah. 24 Q What's that sheen? 25 A Just water. It's a glare. 783 1 Q Who is this? 2 A Me, Mark Sherrill, Nick Hernandez. I 3 can't tell. I am sure it's Billy. I can't tell. 4 Q Anybody besides Billy operate the 5 excavator that day? 6 A Not that I can remember. 7 Q This is on the side of the tank closer to 8 the hill, correct? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q Away from 49? 11 A Away from 49. 12 Q What were these things? Spill protection? 13 A I don't know. Maybe, yeah. 14 Q Was there any gasoline in those? 15 A Not that I know of. 16 Q Did you checks? 17 A I didn't personally check. 18 Q Did you see anybody else check? 19 A I don't remember seeing anybody else 20 check. 21 Q Did Dave Mason IV come by at all that 22 day? 23 A I am not sure. I am not sure I even know 24 Dave Mason IV. Oh, I do. 25 Q This is you in the hat? 784 1 A Yeah, that's -- 2 Q All this soil here, you don't smell any 3 gasoline? 4 A I don't remember smelling any fumes at 5 all. 6 Q Whose truck? 7 A That's the Lincoln Navigator. 8 Q Who was videotaping at this point? 9 A I don't know. I do not remember. 10 Q How many people that day did you see with 11 a video camera in their hand? 12 A Uh... I am pretty sure I seen June with 13 one. And I see Bill Wolin Senior with one. 14 Q Did you see Bob Womack with one in his 15 hand? 16 A I don't remember seeing my dad have one. 17 Q Because I think earlier somewhere Bob 18 Womack told us that -- okay. Sorry. 19 These individuals? 20 A That's -- I think that's Nick, myself. 21 And I think that's Mark Sherrill and probably my dad. 22 Q So they are on the side away from the 23 tank, away from 49? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q There's water in the hole part way up the 785 1 tank, correct? 2 A Uh-huh. 3 Q If you could answer yes or no for the 4 court reporter. 5 A Yes. 6 Q And who was that that got off the truck? 7 A I didn't see who that was. 8 Q What are you gentlemen doing at this 9 point? 10 A I can't see. 11 Q Okay. 12 A Looks like we are standing there right 13 now. Looked like Nick appeared to take a piece of pipe 14 off. 15 Q Where did that pipe come from? Off the 16 pipe? 17 A I am sure it did. 18 Q This gentleman? 19 A That might have been Billy Wolin. 20 Q That puts at the site your father, 21 yourself, Sherrill, Nick, and Billy? And June? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q Anybody else? 24 A Like I said, June might have been there. 25 Q Is this a pipe cutter? 786 1 A Yeah. 2 Q Metal? 3 A Metal yeah. 4 Q Metal on metal? 5 A Yeah, that's what pipe cutters are. 6 Q Any sparks there? 7 A No. I don't see any. 8 Q Okay. This pipe that you are cutting on 9 here appears to be three and a half, four feet below 10 surface, going toward where the dispenser island used to 11 be. 12 Did you take pipe out before you took the 13 tank out or afterwards? 14 A I would have to watch this. I don't know. 15 Q What's your best guess? 16 A Well, I would have to get it out of the 17 way. I don't know. Probably. I don't know why -- if we 18 were going to take it out, we would have taken it out. I 19 don't know why they cut it or we cut it. 20 Q If you were going to take it out, you 21 would have taken it out. You don't know why you cut it. 22 Would you have cut it to leave it behind? 23 A No. I don't think anything was left 24 behind. 25 Q Okay. Because I don't think anybody 787 1 remembers. 2 What was that? Pipe? 3 A I don't know. I didn't see it. 4 Q What is Nick taking off? 5 A Yeah, it looked like a piece of pipe. 6 Q From the tank? 7 A From the tank. 8 Q Fell in the tank pit? 9 A Yeah, into the hole. 10 Q So at this point, the chain is on and Bill 11 is tugging. Okay. And looks like you are still there, 12 right? 13 A Yeah. 14 Q And the street looks pretty dry. Or does 15 it look sopping wet? 16 A Looks dry. 17 Q Okay. So this is before it really started 18 raining hard? And you don't remember who put the chain 19 on the tank? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q But it was stuck on three sides? 22 A Stuck on three sides. 23 Q So that's north, south, east side? 24 A Oh, yeah. 25 Q The tank was. 788 1 And then Sherrill gets down in the hole. 2 Your dad gets a shovel, correct? 3 A Yeah. 4 Q I should be asking questions. 5 A Correct. 6 Q Okay. Billy digs on the side closest to 7 49? 8 A Yeah, he did. 9 Q Are you still there? 10 A Yeah, I am standing right there beside my 11 dad, it looks like. 12 Q So earlier I wasn't sure whether you 13 remembered whether you were still there when the side 14 closest to 49 was -- 15 A I told you I didn't remember him digging 16 on that side. 17 Q Does this help refresh your recollection? 18 A I mean, yes. 19 Q Do you remember this now? 20 A Not really. But I mean, it's there. I 21 see it. 22 Q A while back, you told Investigator Hall 23 you weren't there when the tank came out. Now you are 24 saying you don't remember. Okay. Let's pause it right 25 hire. Do you remember this part? 789 1 Let's see if we have any volume here. 2 Ten to 6:00. Were you there at ten to 3 6:00? 4 A I couldn't tell you. I do not remember. 5 Q Were you there ten minutes before ten to 6 6:00? Let's say, 5:30. 7 A Quite possibly. I don't know. 8 Q So you left sometime? 9 A Sometime. 10 Q As the tank is coming out of the ground, 11 you left? 12 A It could have been being pulled out as I 13 left. 14 Q Is -- 15 A See there. It was raining. 16 Q So is that the same time June stopped 17 taping? 18 A Must have been. I don't know. 19 Q Have you guys had conversations about it? 20 A No. Like I said, I never even seen this 21 tape before. 22 Q Has June ever told you she taped over -- 23 A -- that? 24 Q Yeah. 25 A First time I ever heard about that was 790 1 either -- it was -- the first time that I knew there was 2 that was, I think, that night after the D.A. went through 3 my dad's house. They said that they took the tape and it 4 had the akido on it. I think there is something else on 5 the other end of it or something. 6 Q That's the first you ever heard there was 7 a tape? 8 A Well, I -- that I knew that for sure there 9 was a tape. 10 Q Is that the first time that you heard 11 there was a videotape of the tank pull? 12 A Yeah. That I know of that there was one 13 in existence. I mean, I figured there was one. June 14 videotaped us. 15 Q Did anybody ever tell you they destroyed 16 the original? 17 A No, never heard that. 18 Q Anybody ever tell you they copied over the 19 original? 20 A No, never heard. 21 Q Okay. So after watching that tape for 22 five or eight minutes, does it help refresh your 23 recollection about when you left that day? 24 A No, not really. I mean, I left sometime. 25 I remember it was pouring down rain. It was getting with 791 1 it. Like right there, you can see the water. 2 Q That was pouring down rain? 3 A Yeah, you can see it. You can see the 4 tank is all wet even. 5 Q So just, you gave up, decided not to help 6 any more? 7 A Yeah, I might have seen it starting to 8 move and said, Piss on it, and took off. I do not 9 remember. I honestly do not remember. 10 Q Have you talked to Mark Sherrill about it 11 while you were there? 12 A While I was -- I don't remember talking to 13 Mark Sherrill, except when we were standing there a 14 little bit. After that, I don't remember talking to him. 15 Q Since May 2nd, have you talked to Mark 16 Sherrill about this tank pull? 17 A Mmmm... I think I have asked him -- I did 18 say something. I don't know if I asked him about the 19 tank. I seen him at work one day. I can't remember what 20 I asked him. I don't know if I have talked to him about 21 that tank pull. I do not remember. 22 Q Okay. Give us a short list. Other than 23 your father and June and Roland -- or a complete list; 24 not a short list -- of people you have talked to about 25 this tank removal. 792 1 A Since this happened? 2 Q Sure. 3 You can skip your wife, because that 4 might be privileged. 5 A I don't even know if I talked to her about 6 it. 7 I joked around with everybody at work. 8 There's probably thirty something employees. 9 Q What was the funniest part about this 10 joke? 11 A Because I guess, after all this come down, 12 that you were looking for it, I kept telling everybody, I 13 don't know what they are doing, why they are after it. I 14 guess they have got it. 15 They started saying -- joking around, 16 joking around. They said, Oh, let's just say it was 17 buried out here somewhere, because they have to strip to 18 get to the sand. So they were moving -- 19 Q Overburden? 20 A They were removing, like, a million tons 21 of overburden at that time. There was jokes around 22 saying, Tell them it's over here. They will come out 23 looking for it. 24 Q So you wouldn't have had to get any 25 permits? 793 1 A Who would have? 2 Q I am just saying, if you are out there 3 looking for a tank, you wouldn't have had to get all the 4 required permits. I withdraw the question. 5 Okay. Right now, I am looking at -- I am 6 looking. Okay. Let's stop here. I thought we might get 7 lucky here. 8 Look at the time, the bottom right 9 corner. 10 A Okay. 11 Q Now, the time is not correct. The 12 calibration on the time? 13 A To be honest with you, my stepmom was 14 running it. I am surprised it is on there. 15 Q This is 9:33. You are all over the place. 16 The road is dry. Here we are, 9:34, one minute later. 17 You are still here. Okay. Road is starting to look a 18 little damp. Okay. 19 9:36. Been a whole minute and 20 seconds. 20 Still working on it. 9:41. 21 A Yeah. 22 Q Okay. So less than six minutes since we 23 saw you in the video, the tank is coming out of the 24 ground. What's the story? 25 A I don't know what to tell you. It doesn't 794 1 look -- it's not coming out of the ground. Just moving. 2 I don't even know if they got it out that time. 3 Q Because you weren't there? 4 A Yeah, I don't remember seeing it come out 5 of the ground. 6 Q Okay. Do you know whose truck it went on? 7 A No, I don't. I do not remember if I was 8 there. 9 Q Have you ever been told whose truck it 10 went on? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you ever been told that it went on 13 Mark Sherrill's truck? 14 A By Ron Hall. 15 Q Did you bounce it off your dad? 16 A Probably. 17 Q And your dad said? 18 A He said, I don't know why they think that. 19 Q He didn't say, That's BS? 20 A Well, knowing my dad, probably. 21 Q Okay. So what did your dad say when you 22 told him Ron Hall told you it was Mark Sherrill's truck? 23 The best you can remember. And it's only been a week. 24 Because a week ago is when we learned. 25 A Was that when I got subpoenaed? Mmmm.. I 795 1 am trying to think. I remember -- I remember when I told 2 him that I got it. And I remember saying that Ron told 3 me that Dave Mason III said that Mark Sherrill hauled it 4 out to -- no, he didn't say that. Ron Hall told me, We 5 already know that Mark Sherrill hauled it. 6 And I said, I couldn't tell you. 7 And then he said, Well, Dave Mason told us 8 it was hauled out here. 9 And I said, I don't know where that story 10 came from. 11 He said, Well, Dave Mason Senior, III. 12 And I just shrugged my shoulders and said, 13 Whatever. 14 Q That was a long time ago? 15 A No. That was when I got subpoenaed. 16 Q I am talking about last week. Did anyone 17 tell you that Mark Sherrill's truck hauled the -- 18 A No one has ever told me Mark Sherrill's 19 truck hauled it, except for Ron Hall. 20 Q So hypothetically, if Mark Sherrill said 21 it was his truck that hauled the tank, does that help 22 refresh your recollection regarding the story on that 23 date? 24 A If he said he hauled it, I guess he hauled 25 it. I told you, I didn't remember seeing it on a truck. 796 1 Q Listen to the question. Mark Sherrill's 2 truck hauled it. Have you ever been told that? 3 A I don't remember being told that. 4 Q And your dad drove the truck. Have you 5 ever been told that? 6 A I don't remember being told that. 7 Q Have you forgotten anything about who 8 hauled the tank? 9 A I told you I don't even remember being 10 there. 11 Q Let's say, afterwards, you are sitting 12 around having a beer with your dad. 13 A We don't drink beer. 14 Q Did he say, I hauled the tank? 15 A No. I don't think I even talked to him 16 for a few days after it was done. And then, no, I don't 17 think he ever come out and told me who hauled the tank. 18 Q Did he take it to the Bossi Ranch? 19 A Not that I know of. I live out there. I 20 did not see it go out there. 21 Q Were you living there in May? 22 A Yeah, I have been there -- yeah. 23 Q Okay. Did he tell you that he hauled it 24 to Mark Sherrill's property on 88? 25 A He didn't tell me that he even hauled it. 797 1 I just told you. He didn't tell me nothing about it. 2 Q Okay. This might help you refresh your 3 recollection. This is Grand Jury Exhibit 21. 4 Do you recognize this truck and trailer? 5 A I recognize the truck. It's Mark 6 Sherrill's. And I seen this truck and trailer yesterday 7 sitting in his lot with a water truck on top of it. 8 Q All right. Would it help your 9 recollection if I told that you Mark Sherrill said it's 10 this truck and this trailer that hauled the tank? 11 A If he said so. I don't remember that 12 truck or that trailer. Like I said, I don't even 13 remember being there. 14 Q Do you remember if this truck and this 15 trailer was at 505 Sutter street that day? 16 A I don't know if that was -- I don't know 17 how many trucks he has. I know there was a dump truck 18 there, but it had a different trailer on it. 19 Q If Mark Sherrill testifies this week that 20 you were there when the tank came out of the ground, 21 would that be true or false? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q It's not a trick question. 24 A I don't remember being there. If he said 25 I was there, I guess he thinks I was there. If he says I 798 1 wasn't there, then I wasn't there. 2 Q So if Mark Sherrill testifies you were 3 there, you were there? 4 A There is a chance I was there. 5 Q And there is also a chance you weren't 6 there? 7 A And there is a chance I wasn't there. 8 Q Mark Sherrill lie a lot? 9 A I don't know him that well. 10 Q How about you? Do you lie a lot? 11 A No, not that I know of. 12 Q Okay. After the tank -- wait. Before the 13 tank was found after the meeting at the District 14 Attorney's -- withdraw the question. 15 After the meeting at the county building, 16 your dad decided to offer a reward. Do you remember 17 that? 18 A I remember him saying there was a reward 19 for it, yeah. 20 Q Tell us everything you remember about this 21 reward, please. Did you know before he put the ad in the 22 paper? 23 A I don't believe so. I think he already 24 said he contacted the paper when I found out about it. 25 He told me that, at the meeting -- I wasn't there. That 799 1 at the meeting, that I guess it was you said that you 2 didn't care who had the tank, where the tank went, all 3 this stuff; that nobody would be prosecuted. You guys 4 just wanted the tank back. 5 So he said he put a reward in the paper 6 and try and get the tank back for you. 7 Q He told you that no one would be 8 prosecuted or nobody additionally would be prosecuted? 9 A He told me no one would be prosecuted. He 10 said you guys just wanted the tank back so it wouldn't 11 happen again or whatever, get moved or someone using it 12 or something. 13 You said -- I believe he said that you 14 said it would be hazardous if somebody was using it for 15 drinking water or using it for something different. 16 Q What do you know about that? 17 A Just what I just told you. 18 Q No. With your training, what do you think 19 about using an underground storage tank as drinking water 20 supply? 21 A I don't know if I would use a fuel tank, 22 but there is people use tanks. 23 Q Okay. So that's what he said. 24 Hey, did he ever tell you if it was more 25 than $500, his attorney told him to tell us to F-off? 800 1 A No. I have not heard that. 2 Q You are sure? 3 A I am sure. 4 Q Okay. 5 A I was in the Reno when this meeting 6 happened. 7 Q Okay. Do you recognize your dad's 8 signature if you saw it? 9 A Yeah, probably. I don't know if he signs 10 his full name or not. 11 Q It's Grand Jury No. 17. It's one of the 12 checks. Bottom right corner, you recognize the 13 signature? 14 A That might be Roland's. 15 Q So you don't recognize the signature? 16 A I think that's how he signs it, yeah. But 17 I am not sure. 18 Q So to your knowledge, your dad can sign on 19 the KRL Partnership? 20 A Yeah, I guess. To my knowledge, he can. 21 Q Mr. Womack, the Grand Jurors -- originally 22 we tried to get you out of here at 2:15. They wanted us 23 to go forward until we are done with questioning today. 24 A Ron Hall said I could come back tomorrow 25 at 11:15. 801 1 Q Yeah, but I guess I am letting you know 2 now there was a meeting when I was outside, and the Grand 3 Jurors -- 4 A I need to make a phone call then. 5 MR. IREY: Can we take a two-minute break? We 6 will take the other break at 3:00. Is that okay, Mr. 7 Foreman? 8 THE FOREPERSON: Take a two-minute break and the 9 other break at 3:00. 10 Do we read him the admonishment again? 11 MR. IREY: I don't think it's necessary. 12 THE FOREPERSON: It still stands, the one you 13 originally signed. 14 (Pause in proceedings from 2:32 to 2:39 p.m.) 15 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Womack, I remind you, you 16 are still under oath. 17 Q BY MR. IREY: To the best of your 18 recollection, that seven minutes between when you were 19 last seen in the video and the tank was seen coming out 20 of the ground, where was your car parked? 21 A I think one of those pictures showed it 22 up on the hill. 23 Q That truck you had was a KRL truck, right? 24 A At one time, yeah. 25 Q And you bought it from KRL? 802 1 A I traded for it, yeah. 2 Q Traded what? 3 A Another truck. 4 Q So you traded a truck back to KRL? 5 A I traded, yeah, a pickup for that one. 6 Because my pickup didn't have room for my kids. 7 Q What year and make pickup? 8 A It was a Ford four-wheel drive. 9 Q What year? 10 A '78. 11 Q So you traded a '78 Ford pickup for a 12 '90 -- what? Ford pickup? 13 A I think it's a '92. 14 Q Straight across? 15 A Yeah, I believe so. 16 Q So you signed over your pink slip to KRL 17 and KRL signed over the pink slip to you? 18 A Yeah, as far as I remember. 19 Q If you have any idea, what's the fair 20 market value of '78 four-wheel drive Ford pickup? 4,000? 21 A Uh, no. Guy at work has got one I think 22 he wants 6,500 or 8,000 for. 23 Q And a '92 Ford king cab? 17? 18? 19? 24 A No. I think I could probably right now 25 probably get ten out of it. 803 1 Q Okay. So you don't know where your car 2 was parked? 3 A I think one of those pictures showed it. 4 I think I was in Roland's parking. 5 Q Did you have to drive past a truck to 6 leave? 7 A I don't know. I might have backed up and 8 went up the hill. 9 Q Backed up and gone to Rex and not ever 10 seen the tank again? 11 A Yeah. Is that -- I don't know the street 12 name there. High School Hill is what I call it. 13 Q Are you pretty sure you did it? Or you 14 might have done that? Or you did not do that? 15 A I don't know. I don't remember what I 16 did. 17 Q So that would have left at the site Robert 18 Womack, Mark Sherrill, Nick Hernandez and Billy Wolin? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q What if Nick Hernandez testifies you were 21 still there? 22 A Then he testifies I was still there. 23 Q Would those two people testifying you were 24 still there lead you to believe that you might have still 25 been there? 804 1 A Then I guess I could have been there. I 2 have told you. I don't know how many times I have to 3 tell you. I don't remember being there. I don't 4 remember seeing it come up even out of the ground. 5 THE FOREPERSON: May I take a second? I think 6 this might be bugging some people. This is buzzing 7 pretty loud here. 8 MR. IREY: You want to crack one of the windows? 9 Q We will try to go through these really 10 quickly. 11 This is Grand Jury Exhibit 45, KRL 12 Partnership, Lincoln Navigator. Do you know how much KRL 13 bought that for? 14 A No, I do not. 15 Q Did Robert Womack ever tell you how much 16 he paid for this Lincoln Navigator? 17 A He might have. I don't -- you know, maybe 18 in talk. 19 Q Plus or minus a thousand, what's your best 20 guess? 21 A It's probably, I don't know, 30, 35, 22 somewhere in there. 23 Q Okay. Grand Jury 46. The KRL Partnership 24 bought a Lincoln town car. Did they buy that Lincoln 25 town car before or after the Navigator? 805 1 A I am not sure. 2 Q Plus or minus 5,000, what did -- 3 A Probably the same. 4 Q Grand Jury Exhibit 47. Have you seen this 5 little reward sticker anywhere? 6 It's similar to -- might be the exact 7 reward sticker in Grand Jury Exhibit 36. 8 A I seen one on my dad's desk. 9 Q Just laying around on the desk? 10 A I think it was laying -- I don't know 11 where that is. I think I seen it laying. He has got 12 like a -- there's like a day calendar. I think I seen it 13 laying on that before. 14 Q But you have never seen it blown up into a 15 eight-and-a-half-by-eleven? 16 A I am not for sure. 17 Q Which of your friends did you point it out 18 to at Safeway? 19 A I -- let me think about that. I don't 20 know. 21 Q We will take a minute. Think about it. 22 A Uh... Trying to think who has called up 23 to my house. I couldn't remember. I mean, it may have 24 been my brother-in-law on my wife's side. Actually, her 25 brother-in-law. 806 1 Q So it was only one person. It wasn't some 2 of your friends? 3 A Not that I know of. I don't hang around 4 with too many people. 5 Q Your wife's brother-in-law's name is? 6 A Frank Ferrin. 7 Q Okay. Grand Jury Exhibit 48. Four 8 business cards. Could you walk the Grand Jurors 9 basically through your -- whose name is on this Express 10 Travel? 11 A Robert Womack. 12 Q Who is that? 13 A My father. 14 Q When was he in Orangevale, California? 15 A Probably -- I don't know. Orangevale? I 16 think he was raised in Orangevale. I don't know. 17 Q So since you have been living -- how long 18 have you lived in Amador County? 19 A About twelve or thirteen years. 20 Q Before that, where did you live? 21 A In Placerville. 22 Q Okay. Did he have an Express Travel 23 business? 24 A I don't know. I wasn't part of the family 25 really then. 807 1 Q Okay. What about Arcade Creek Tours, 2 Citrus Heights? 3 A Citrus Heights, I -- I got relatives in 4 Citrus Heights. I don't know. 5 Q Okay. What about Ridge Road Vineyards? 6 A The address says that house. 7 Q "That house" being? 8 A KRL's house, I guess, or his house, 9 whoever's it is. 10 Q And the phone number? 11 A That's his phone number. 12 Q 216-4196? 13 A Yeah. 14 Q And the fax number? 15 A That's the fax number goes up to the 16 office. 17 Q That's KRL's fax number? 18 A I think that's their office number. 19 Q Okay. And tell us about Ridge Road 20 Vineyards. What do you know about it? 21 A Nothing. 22 Q Do they make wine? 23 A I don't know nothing about Ridge Road 24 Vineyards. 25 Q Does your dad have grape vines? 808 1 A Some, yeah. 2 Q Is he selling the grapes? 3 A I could not tell you. 4 Q Have you ever seen a bottle of wine that 5 said Ridge Road Vineyards? 6 A Not that I know. I don't drink wine. I 7 have never seen one, no. 8 Q So the next card down says Ridge Road 9 Vineyards also. As the owner? 10 A Mm-hmm. 11 Q Same phone numbers? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q But you don't know whether or not he has a 14 business Ridge Road Vineyards? 15 A No, I couldn't tell you. 16 Q Who in the family besides June has a best 17 idea about your dad's business activities? 18 A Besides my dad? 19 Q Yeah. 20 Does he put his arm around Roland and 21 say, Roland, I am going to give you the business once 22 you -- 23 A No. He pretty much does his own thing. I 24 don't know. Roland might know more than I do. I 25 don't -- you know, he doesn't... 809 1 Q Grand Jury Exhibit 49. Bank of Amador 2 Customer Realty, sale of '72 Jaguar. You see that? 3 A Yeah, I see that. 4 Q How much did KRL Partnership buy this '72 5 Jaguar for? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q Who would know? 8 A Probably my dad or maybe Roland. 9 Q Whose business was it in '94? 10 A In '94? 11 Q Mm-hmm. 12 A In '94, I might even have still been in 13 it. 14 Q You don't know whether you bought the 15 Jaguar for 25,000 and sold it for 10,000? 16 A No, I don't know. '72. He just sold 17 that. 18 Q I know, for 10,000. He had it listed in 19 his insurance for 25,000. 20 Did he tell you how much he sold it for? 21 A I don't think I have ever asked. He goes 22 through cars a lot. 23 Q You know, I don't remember seeing a 24 deposit in KRL account for this. Do you think he 25 deposited the money into the account? It says KRL 810 1 Partnership Account 11171? 2 A That is -- there is a deposit right 3 there. 4 Q Okay. Did you use the car phone that day 5 from May 2nd? 6 A I am not sure. I don't remember using 7 it. I might have, to call my wife. 8 Q What's your home number? 9 A xxx-xxxx. 10 Q xxx? 11 A xxxx. 12 Q 5:30 p.m. This had been marked Grand Jury 13 Exhibit 56, four-page document. 5:30 phone call to 14 xxx-xxxx. You see that? 15 A That's my phone number. 16 Q So you called your wife and you told her 17 what? 18 A I said I don't -- 19 Q I will be there after I pull the 20 underground storage tank? 21 A I just said I don't remember calling her. 22 I said I could have. My dad could have called me. I 23 could have already been home. That could have been June 24 calling my wife. I have no idea. 25 Q Okay. 811 1 A My house is kind of hectic about that 2 time. We had a newborn baby. 3 Q Congratulations. 4 A She was only about three weeks old. There 5 was probably a lot going on that day. 6 Q Your conversation with Phil Joses he 7 described to the Grand Jury. Could you describe your 8 conversation with Phil Joses when he originally asked you 9 about the underground storage tank. 10 A I don't know if he ever asked me about the 11 underground storage tank. I told him about the fuel 12 pumps. And he told me -- I told him that we had fuel 13 pumps in the barn and asked if they wanted to buy them to 14 replace the ones they have got. He said he would talk to 15 Lou, I guess. 16 And then he came back and said -- he told 17 me he couldn't buy it from me because I did not have -- I 18 wasn't on their accounts, on their payable, whatever. I 19 didn't have a number. 20 So then I think we sat there and talked 21 about, maybe we could run it through Dave Mason, because 22 he had an account and one time were his pumps or are his 23 pumps. I don't know how it is anymore. 24 He asked me what -- what I would sell them 25 to him for if they were mine. I said, Let's talk to Dave 812 1 Mason, see what they are worth. Say, half even. 2 Q So that's recently? 3 A That was -- I'm trying to think last time 4 I talked to him. Right before. It was probably -- I am 5 guessing -- about a week before I think you and Ron Hall 6 showed up to the plant and talked to Lou. Because he 7 came back over and said, I don't want nothing to do with 8 anything. 9 I said, What's going on? 10 He said, We just had visitors from the 11 D.A.'s Office. 12 I think that's the last time anything has 13 been said. 14 Q You were only trying to sell him the 15 pumps, the dispensers. You weren't trying to sell him 16 the tank? 17 A Hm-mmm. 18 Q Have you ever heard that Doug Mondani 19 might have hauled the tank? 20 A No, I don't remember hearing anything 21 about Doug Mondani. 22 Q Could you give us a list of people you 23 heard might have hauled the tank, aside from what you 24 heard today? 25 A I don't think I have ever heard a list of 813 1 who could have hauled it. 2 Q The underground storage tank returned that 3 first week of September after the meeting in the county 4 building. What did your dad tell you about the reward, 5 the delivery of the tank? 6 A He said somebody -- somebody in Stockton 7 had the tank and was going to use it as storage or oil 8 storage or something. And that it ended up -- I don't 9 know -- somewhere in Lodi, I guess. And that's where -- 10 I guess that's where it got destroyed, was in Lodi. I 11 don't know. 12 Q Did he tell you he met the guy? 13 A I didn't talk to him about it. He just 14 told me this recently. 15 Q When? 16 A I don't know. A week ago, two weeks ago. 17 Q Okay. So now we are up to three 18 conversations. We are up to the conversation you had two 19 days ago with some guy named Paul. And now we had a 20 conversation one or two weeks ago, and then -- was that 21 before or after the search warrant? 22 A I am not sure. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Might even have been that night. Like I 25 said, I not sure. 814 1 Q Did he tell you about how he went down and 2 paid the guy the reward? 3 A I do remember him saying that he paid 4 somebody a reward, yeah. 5 Q Did he tell you cash or check? 6 A I... 7 Q Thousand bucks? 2,000 bucks? 500 bucks? 8 A Probably whatever it says. I don't -- he 9 said they got the tank back. 10 Q Okay. Did he know the guy? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Did he tell you he knew the guy? 13 A He didn't talk to me about it. He just 14 said they got the tank back. 15 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 16 Womack at this time. If any Member of the Grand Jury 17 have any questions, I would be happy to ask those of Mr. 18 Womack. 19 Mr. Womack, I don't know if I explained 20 this part of it to you. But the Grand Jurors now can 21 submit questions to me in writing. 22 Q Have you talked to anybody about their 23 testimony so far, the last couple of days? 24 A I think I asked George Ryan and Lou out 25 there. I said, what? Is everything sworn in secrecy? 815 1 And both said, Yeah, you can't say anything about it. 2 Q You asked George Ryan and whom? 3 A One of my bosses, Lou Broline. Just when 4 can you were interviewing or questioning Phil. I asked 5 if everything was sworn secrecy. 6 Q At the beginning of your testimony, when 7 Mr. Irey asked you if you had seen the paper today, you 8 said no. Then later in your testimony, 12:15 p.m., he 9 asked you about an article in today's paper and you said, 10 yes, you had seen it. 11 A I remember saying that I didn't read that 12 part of the paper. Every day, I grab a paper. I go 13 straight to the letters to the editor. 14 Q Why? 15 A Because there have been some funny 16 comments in it. 17 Q Pretty good ones? 18 A Yeah. Today was pretty good. I thought 19 it was funny. 20 Q How much of it was true? 21 A As far as I know, all of it. 22 Q What about the other one last week, the 23 Gestapo and eleven investigators? How many were actually 24 at your dad's property? 25 A That I personally seen? 816 1 Q Yeah. 2 A One, two, three, four, five, six. I don't 3 know. Seven or eight probably. 4 Q Really? 5 A That I -- that I remember. 6 Q So you rush to the letters to the editor. 7 And there were a couple in today's paper? 8 A Mm-hmm. 9 Q And one by somebody Brown. You know him? 10 A I don't even know if I paid attention to 11 the names. I don't. 12 Q Are you helping your dad orchestrate the 13 letter-writing campaign? 14 A No. 15 Q Would it surprise you if your dad was 16 orchestrating the letter campaign? 17 A I don't know why he would have to. 18 Q Would it surprise you if your father was? 19 A I guess it would. 20 Q Well, if June is stepmother, does that 21 make you the oldest Womack child? 22 A No. 23 Q Could you basically give us ages of the 24 children. 25 A Kim is -- I don't know. Kim is probably 817 1 in her -- I think she is 41 or 42. Roland is about 35 or 2 six. I am 26. And my brother is 26. 3 Q What would have made you leave the site 4 when you did? 5 A It was raining. And like I said, I had a 6 a newborn baby at home. That's all I can think of. 7 Q Did you have to put a towel on your truck 8 seat because you were so wet? 9 A I don't know. I don't know if I -- if you 10 were to see my truck, I don't know if I would throw a 11 towel down if I was wet or not. 12 Q Did you and your dad have any discussion 13 today regarding permits? 14 A Today? Yeah. At breakfast this morning, 15 he -- it was brought up. I can't believe they are still 16 pushing this. The City -- I think he even said the City 17 is coming out in Wednesday's paper that they are 18 admitting that the permit was valid and they are taking 19 responsibility for saying that the tank should have come 20 out with that permit. It should be, I guess, in 21 Wednesday's paper. 22 Q This is what your dad told you? 23 A Yeah, this morning. 24 Q Who else did he tell that to? 25 A Paul Bossi might have been there. I don't 818 1 know. When he said it, I don't know if we were getting 2 up to leave or we were all three sitting there or if he 3 told me out by the truck. 4 Q Who was at breakfast? 5 A My dad, myself and Paul Bossi. 6 Q So you met the morning you were going to 7 testify in front of the Grand Jury. He talked about 8 permits. And what? Was that one minute out of the 9 breakfast conversation? Fifteen minutes out of the 10 breakfast conversation? 11 A I don't keep track of time. I don't 12 know. He just said that, I guess, Wednesday, that it 13 will be in the paper. It will be a big thing in the 14 paper again, like it's been almost every day, every time 15 the paper comes out. 16 But I did hear that the City said that 17 they issued the permit and they felt that the tank was 18 part of the permit. So they felt they did the right 19 thing or whatever. But I guess I will find out 20 Wednesday. 21 Q Okay. Strike that as non-responsive. 22 How long did you discuss permits this 23 morning? 24 A It was mentioned a few times. I don't -- 25 like I said, probably five minutes. I don't know. 819 1 Q So you have seen County permits today, 2 correct? 3 A Yeah. You flipped through a couple of 4 them. 5 Q You looked at them, correct? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q They said County permit? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q 505 Sutter Street? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q So you still think only a City permit was 12 required? 13 A That's what he was told. 14 Q Do you still think only a City permit was 15 required? 16 A I'm not sure. I couldn't tell you. I 17 have no opinion. 18 Q What did you study at UOP? 19 A Pre-law. 20 Q What relationship does this education have 21 with your present job? 22 A Absolutely none. 23 Q What job experience do you have in the 24 construction business, including heavy equipment 25 operations? 820 1 A Ran a dozer, run backhoe, run loader, 2 scraper, little bit of a grader. Farm tractor stuff, you 3 know, little tractors. That's about it. 4 Q Do you have a Class A, B or C license? 5 A Just a regular license. I don't know what 6 class it is. 7 Q Regular vehicle license? 8 A Yeah, regular vehicle license. 9 Q Do you have a contractor's license? 10 A No. I don't. 11 Q If you know, what does KRL Partnership -- 12 I misread. 13 If you know, why does KRL Partnership go 14 by KRL if Kim, Larry and you are no longer involved with 15 the partnership? 16 A That's what it's always been called. 17 Q What is the payoff for you, if any? 18 A Payoff for what? 19 Q I can only read what's written. What is 20 the payoff for you, if any? 21 A As far as I know, there's no payoff at 22 all. I don't know what there would be a payoff for. 23 Q Other than signing over this million 24 dollars to Roland, have you ever signed over anything 25 worth more than $500 without -- rephrase the question. 821 1 Besides the $1.2 million gift, what is 2 your largest gift you have ever given anybody besides a 3 wedding ring? 4 A To anybody? 5 Q Anybody. 6 A I don't know. I have given stuff back and 7 forth to Roland and my dad. And Larry. My brother and I 8 have traded trucks that were worth different values 9 because we liked each other's trucks different. I mean. 10 Q 2,000? 11 A Yeah, I guess. I traded that one truck 12 for the other truck. Probably two, $3,000 difference. 13 Q Does KRL or your dad subsidize your 14 income? 15 A Mine? No. 16 Q That's the second question. If so, how 17 much per month? 18 A I don't get nothing. 19 Q Who runs KRL? 20 A It's -- I think my dad is the manager of 21 it. But Roland -- as far as I know, Roland and Larry, 22 you just showed me a paper, were the partners. I think 23 my dad is employed as financial manager or something, but 24 I am not sure. 25 Q Employed as a financial manager? 822 1 A Yeah. Financial advisor. I don't know. 2 I know that -- I am almost sure, positive, that he gets 3 paid from KRL. That's how he makes his living. 4 Q Could you skim through this check register 5 that has been marked -- probably not marked yet. Mark 6 this, please. 7 Why do you think that KRL pays your 8 father? 9 A Because I think he told me that back when 10 I was in it. I think that he was getting paid by them. 11 I think that's how he has any money at all. 12 Q 20,000 a month? 13 A I don't have no idea how much. 14 Q 2,000 a month? 15 A It could be. Like I said, I have no 16 idea. I am not in that part. I am not in any of it any 17 more. 18 Q Does June have a job with KRL also? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 63. If you 21 could skim through it. Take two minutes and see if there 22 are any checks made out to Robert Womack. 23 A To Robert Womack? 24 Q Yeah. That's the employee of KRL, 25 correct? 823 1 I don't mean to stop you in mid stream. 2 What's this $60,000 settlement that KRL got from FAA? 3 A I think it's something to do with the 4 property in Elko, Nevada. 5 Q FAA being Federal? 6 A Air Administration or something. I think 7 it's something to do with, there is a tower on the 8 property in Elko, a radio tower or something. Something 9 to do with that, that they didn't pay their rent or their 10 lease or something. I am not sure. 11 Q FAA didn't pay? 12 A Yeah, I guess. Like I said, I don't know. 13 Q So were there any checks to your -- 14 A I don't see any directly written to my 15 dad, no. 16 Q What's that checking account, that kind of 17 blank check? Do you recognize that as being an account 18 he deposits money into? The one that shows up fairly 19 often that just ends with 0148-200-5XX? 20 A No. I don't know what that is. 21 Q Okay. Are there more KRL accounts than 22 the one at the Bank of Amador? 23 A I am not sure. 24 Q Who runs KRL? 25 A Roland and my dad, I yes. 824 1 Q Who makes all the decisions for KRL? 2 A I think Roland does. 3 Q You had a big falling out with your family 4 big enough to give up your share in KRL, and yet you 5 believe everything your dad says? 6 A Yeah. He had his opinion. I had mine. I 7 went my way. He went his. And now we talk. 8 Q Do you have a medical condition or have 9 you had an accident that affects your memory? 10 A Not that I know of. Not that I can 11 remember. 12 Q Would you lie to protect your family? 13 A Huh? Would I lie to protect my family? 14 Maybe myself or my wife, my kids. But not under oath, I 15 wouldn't lie. That would be -- I wouldn't be protecting 16 my family. 17 Q Would you lie to protect your dad? 18 A Not under oath. 19 Q Would you lie to protect June? 20 A Not under oath. I wouldn't lie to protect 21 anybody under oath. 22 Q Just a bad memory? 23 A Yeah. Just honestly a bad memory. 24 Q You are an intelligent person who went to 25 UOP and you don't know how it all works? 825 1 A Exactly. Must not be too intelligent. I 2 didn't finish. 3 Q How often do you work for your dad without 4 pay? 5 A If he calls and says he needs a hand, I go 6 over and help. I don't ever consider it work without 7 pay. I have never asked him to pay me for anything. 8 Q Did you notice if Nick was smoking at the 9 time of the demolition? 10 A On the video? I don't think so. I don't 11 remember paying attention for looking at Nick. 12 Q Did you notice that day of the tank pull 13 if anyone was smoking at the time of the tank pull? 14 A Like I said, I don't even know if Nick 15 smokes. 16 Q Do you trust your dad in all he says? 17 A Yeah. 18 Q Do you -- do you do all your dad asks you 19 to do without asking questions? 20 A Do I? No. That's why we had the big 21 falling out. 22 Q The last four years, do you do all your 23 dad asks you to do without asking questions? 24 A Last four years? No. 25 Q You do -- do you remember you are under 826 1 oath not to lie? 2 A Yeah. 3 Q What's the name of your biological mother? 4 A Marlene Elaine. I think she goes by 5 Short. 6 Q How is it that Robert has two 26-year-old 7 sons? Please explain. 8 A Because he had one with my mom and one 9 with June. 10 Q Billy Wolin testified that you were 11 present when the tank was pulled. Would he have a reason 12 to lie? 13 A Not that I know of. 14 MR. IREY: Any other questions of the Grand 15 Jurors? 16 Q Why would you willfully give up your 17 partnership in KRL and receive nothing in return? 18 A I knew that was going to come up. That 19 was the whole falling out. My wife now was my girlfriend 20 at the time. I was in school. Matter of fact, I think 21 she was in school. She become pregnant. And my dad 22 said, If you are going to stay in school, get your 23 education, you can do that. Or go raise your family. 24 And we got into a big argument. I told 25 him I didn't want nothing to do with him. I was going to 827 1 raise my family on my own. That's what I did. 2 Q For about how long did that falling out 3 last? 4 A I don't think we even talked for about six 5 months. I don't know. Probably -- I don't think we 6 started getting close again until my first baby girl was 7 born. 8 Q So you have three children now? 9 A I have four. Two of them are my wife's 10 from a previous marriage and two are my own. 11 Q Okay. Do you have a close relationship 12 with your dad now? 13 A Than from then, yeah. 14 Q Would you consider it close? 15 A Pretty close, I guess. 16 Q So how does your dad know what's coming 17 out in the newspaper on Wednesday? 18 A Because I think he was meeting some of the 19 City advisors or City people up at the newspaper today. 20 Q So the City people, your dad and the 21 newspaper, were all going to get together and -- 22 A I think. I don't know. I am not sure. 23 Q Is that what your dad told you? 24 A I think he said he was meeting somebody 25 from the City up at the newspaper. 828 1 Q Did he tell you whom? 2 A It was a female, I am pretty sure. If I 3 heard the name, I might remember it. 4 Q Susan M. Peters? 5 A No. I think it starts with an M or 6 something. I don't think that's it. 7 Q A lady whose name starts with an M who 8 works for the City? 9 A Yeah. Or maybe -- I think he said she 10 works for the City. 11 Q Sherry Martin? 12 A Sherry -- that might be it. Maybe. I 13 don't know if she works for the City. I think that might 14 be it. 15 Q Is that the same Sherry Martin that he 16 surreptitiously taped at the counter at the City? 17 A I don't know. 18 MR. IREY: Any other questions of the Grand 19 Jurors. 20 Q Now that you are on speaking terms with 21 your family, can you get your share back from KRL? 22 A I don't think I am in any will or on any 23 partnership. And as far as I know, I will never get 24 anything. 25 MR. IREY: Any other questions from the Grand 829 1 Jury? 2 Mr. Foreman, I have no further questions. 3 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Do we admonish the 4 witness again? Okay. 5 Mr. Womack, you are admonished not to 6 reveal to any person except as directed by the Court what 7 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 8 other matters concerning the name or subject of the Grand 9 Jury's investigation that you learned during your 10 appearance before the Grand Jury. 11 This admonition continues unless and until 12 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 13 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 14 punishable as contempt of court. 15 This does not prevent you from discussing 16 the matter with your attorney, if you have an attorney 17 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 18 Grand Jury. 19 Once again, sir, I need you to please date 20 and sign that I read that to you. 21 THE SECRETARY: You want him to initial this? 22 THE FOREPERSON: I wasn't sure. 23 I will just have you give your initials 24 down there. Thank you. 25 MR. IREY: That's it. 830 1 Do you want to take a break? 2 THE FOREPERSON: Ten minutes, everybody? Okay. 3 We stand adjourned. 4 I admonish you -- please. I believe I 5 have to say this every time. The Grand Jurors are 6 admonished they are not to -- are not to form or express 7 any opinions about this case or discuss it amongst 8 themselves until the Grand Jury receives the cases for 9 deliberation. In addition, no inspection of evidence 10 should be conducted without the permission of the 11 Foreperson and on the advice of the prosecuting attorney. 12 A violation of this rule could result in 13 a charge of contempt against the Grand Juror who would 14 investigate or view any matters with regard to this case 15 without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 16 We stand in recess until 3:25. Thank you. 17 (Recess taken from 3:15 to 3:27 p.m.) 18 THE FOREPERSON: We are at order. 19 Officer Graves, if you could remain 20 standing and raise your right hand, please. 21 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 22 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 23 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 24 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 25 THE WITNESS: I will. 831 1 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you, sir. 2 3 (TIME NOTED: 3:27 P.M.) 4 ---oOo--- 5 FRED GRAVES 6 Called as a witness herein by the People, 7 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 8 and testified as follows: 9 EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. IREY: 11 Q Mr. Graves, thanks for your patience this 12 afternoon. We tried to get you in a little earlier, but 13 were unable. 14 Could you spell your last name for the 15 record, please. 16 A G-R-A-V-E-S. 17 Q And who is your employer? 18 A California Highway Patrol. 19 Q How long have you been so employed? 20 A Thirty years. 21 Q And how long have you been in Amador 22 County? 23 A About ten. 24 Q Do you know Russ Moore, CHP? 25 A Yes, I do. 832 1 Q How long have you known Russ? 2 A Long time. 3 Q Were you working the weekend of May 1st, 4 2nd and 3rd, 1998? 5 A Yes, I was. 6 Q And were you working at Amador County? 7 A Yes, I was. 8 Q Were you working traffic patrol or some 9 other? 10 A No. Just regular patrol duties. 11 Q Okay. And do you have any specific 12 information regarding the demolition of the old Mason Oil 13 gas station at 505 Sutter? 14 A I remember I stopped and talked to Mr. 15 Womack. I personally know him. 16 And as a matter of fact, my girlfriend and 17 I were thinking about buying the old gas station to make 18 a coffee house. I said, Now I guess we can't do that 19 now, since it was already demolished when I got there. 20 And just had general conversation with him 21 and had a Coke and left. 22 Q Okay. Do you remember whether that was 23 Friday, Saturday or Sunday? 24 A I don't remember. 25 Q Was it the day that the dispensers and air 833 1 compressor were removed? Or the day the demolition 2 actually was occurring? 3 A I think it was after that because there 4 was no demolition occurring at the time. I can't 5 remember. I don't believe so. I don't think there was 6 any demolition going on. 7 Q Do you remember if there was an excavator 8 on site? 9 A There was a backhoe, a big backhoe. 10 Q Was somebody operating it, if you 11 remember? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q Okay. Were they loading trucks? Or do 14 you recall? 15 A I can't remember. I know they were 16 operating it. Whether they were just putting rock back 17 in or -- I really don't. It's really unclear to me 18 because I didn't make any note of any of this going on, 19 so it's... 20 Q Okay. Sometime this summer, you were 21 interviewed by Ron Hall? 22 A Yes, I was. 23 Q And do you remember the -- the stated 24 purpose of the interview? 25 A I think he happened to ask me if I knew 834 1 where the tank went or the tank -- or did I see it? 2 If I remember correctly, I says, I don't 3 remember ever seeing a tank. I mean, it's a possibility 4 maybe it -- that it was gone when I got there. And I 5 don't remember -- I remember seeing one truck there. And 6 I don't remember what it was loaded with. 7 Q Okay. But you do remember having a soda 8 with Mr. Womack? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. Did Ron Hall tell you Mr. Womack 11 said there were lots of people at the demolition on 12 Saturday, May 2nd, including Fred Graves of the Highway 13 Patrol? 14 A I -- yeah. I don't know if he said that 15 or not. I may have been there. I don't know which day I 16 was there. But I do remember just talking to him. And I 17 can't remember if -- I think everything was torn down. I 18 am not sure. 19 Q Do you remember Mr. Hall telling you that 20 Mr. Womack had said that you were present when the tank 21 came out of the ground? 22 A I don't remember that. I wasn't there 23 when it came out of the ground. Because the rock -- if I 24 remember correctly, the rock was already been filled in 25 where it was. 835 1 Q So there was a tank pit, if you recall? 2 A Well, there was just -- there was actually 3 no hole or anything. If I remember correctly, it was 4 just -- they were putting the greenstone rock back into 5 the place where the tank was. 6 Q So it did not look similar to Grand Jury 7 Exhibit 41? Would that be correct? 8 A No. 9 A Okay. That stuff was all -- if I remember 10 correctly, that stuff was all gone. 11 Q So it didn't look like Grand Jury Exhibit 12 19? 13 A No. 14 Q And it didn't look like Grand Jury Exhibit 15 25? Closer? 16 A If I remember correctly, all this stuff 17 was gone. 18 Q "All this stuff" being the debris? 19 A The debris from -- yeah, the debris from 20 the demolition. 21 Q Do you remember what area you saw this pit 22 being filled with greenstone rock? 23 A I think it was right over here. 24 Q Similar to the area where the black box is 25 or not? 836 1 A About where the guy -- right in front of 2 the guy here that was standing. In fact, the hole, if I 3 remember -- you know, I guess it was still where it is 4 now. But the hole wasn't offloading things. I remember 5 there was a truck over here. I think one of these lanes 6 were blocked. 7 Q Do you know if they had a traffic control? 8 A I don't remember. I know there was -- 9 might have been cones out or something, but I am not 10 sure. 11 Q Okay. 12 A This is really foggy in my memory. 13 Q You make a lot of stops a day? 14 A Talk to a lot of people, yeah. 15 Q So you were going to buy the gas station? 16 A We thought about it. 17 Q Were you going to get permits to take the 18 tanks out? 19 A I didn't know that was even involved in 20 this. So probably. Probably I wouldn't have if I had to 21 go to that extent. 22 Q Did you actually contact Mr. Mason and 23 inquire? 24 A No, I didn't. 25 Q Did you call the number to see how much he 837 1 was selling it for? 2 A No. 3 Q It was just a nice location? 4 A We were talking about it, and that was 5 about as far as it went. Then I went back to her that 6 day and told her, We can't buy that place now. It's 7 gone. 8 Q Okay. And did Mr. Womack tell you about 9 what he was going to do and what he was going to build 10 and things like that? 11 A He said something about making a parking 12 lot. I guess his son has the dental practice right 13 there. 14 Q You knew Mr. Womack from? 15 A I have seen him around and talked to him 16 on different occasions. 17 Q Play in any poker games with him? 18 A No. Couldn't afford that. 19 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no other questions of 20 Officer Graves. If any Members of the Grand Jury at this 21 time have any questions, I would be happy to ask those of 22 Officer Graves. 23 Told you it would be short. 24 THE WITNESS: Oh, thank you. 25 MR. IREY: The Foreman has an admonition for 838 1 you. 2 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 3 to any person except as directed by the Court what 4 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 5 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 6 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 7 appearance before the Grand Jury. 8 This admonition continues unless and until 9 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 10 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 11 punishable as contempt of court. 12 This does not prevent you from discussing 13 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 14 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 15 Grand Jury. 16 Sir, if I could get you to sign and date 17 that I read that admonition. Thank you very much. 18 Bart Gillman. 19 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Gillman, if you would remain 20 standing and raise your right hand. 21 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 22 you give in this investigation now pending before this 23 Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 24 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 25 THE WITNESS: I do. 839 1 2 (TIME NOTED: 3:36 P.M.) 3 ---oOo--- 4 BART GILLMAN 5 Called as a witness herein by the People, 6 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 7 and testified as follows: 8 EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. IREY: 10 Q Thank you for your patience this 11 afternoon, Mr. Gillman. 12 A You are welcome. 13 Q Spell your last name for the record, 14 please. 15 A G-I-L-L-M-A-N. 16 Q And are you a business owner in Amador 17 County? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What business do you own? 20 A Mel and Faye's Diner on Highway 49. Mel 21 and Faye is the owner. I am co-owner. 22 Q Were you a co-owner of Mel and Faye's in 23 1988? 24 A Co-owner, yes. 25 Q Were you working in May of '88? 840 1 A '88, yes. 2 Q May of '98. I apologize. 3 A Yes, I was. 4 Q Were you the co-owner May of '88 also? 5 A Yes, uh-huh. 6 Q You have a table up front near the cash 7 register, a large table, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And often local construction and other 10 business owners eat breakfast there? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And in May of '88, if you recall -- do you 13 recall the day when the old Exxon was torn down? 14 A I do. I couldn't tell you the date or the 15 day, but I recall it happening. 16 Q You just recall the actual act? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did you recall whether or not that the 19 people that normally sit at that table ate breakfast at 20 your establishment that day? 21 A Mmmm... I don't recall. 22 Q But you have later been told that people 23 said they were there, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q That was from Investigator Ron Hall? 841 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did Investigator Ron Hall interview 3 regarding conversations you remember from early May of 4 1998? 5 A Nothing about those gentlemen sitting at 6 that table. He just asked me if I had a -- received a 7 sign to post in our window. 8 Q Okay. I think there were two 9 conversations, but correct me if I am wrong. 10 Did he at any time ask you if you heard 11 Robert Womack walking around the store asking people if 12 they wanted an underground storage tank? 13 A I don't recall him asking me that. 14 Q Okay. And then in another conversation he 15 had with you, you said was regarding whether or not a 16 sign was posted? 17 A Correct. 18 Q Did he show you a copy of an advertisement 19 that was supposedly posted? 20 A Mr. Hall or Mr. Womack? 21 Q Mr. Hall. 22 A No. 23 Q Did Mr. Womack at any time ask to post a 24 sign? 25 A Not that I am aware of. 842 1 Q Did Mr. Womack at any time talk to you 2 about a missing underground storage tank? 3 A No. 4 Q Did Mr. Wolin talk to you about a missing 5 underground storage tank? 6 A No. 7 Q Did Mr. Sherrill talk to you about a 8 missing underground storage tank? 9 A No. 10 Q Nick Hernandez? 11 A No. 12 Q Did anybody other than Ron Hall talk to 13 you about a missing underground storage tank? 14 A Nobody, no. 15 Q If District Attorney Investigator Hall has 16 not asked you this question, I will ask it, Mr. Gillman. 17 Do you remember Bob Womack offering to give away an 18 underground storage tank from the Mason gas station in 19 May of 1998? 20 A No. But where I work, I am not in reach 21 of hearing any conversation at that table. But no, I 22 don't. 23 Q He didn't come to you and ask you if you 24 wanted the tank? 25 A No. 843 1 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 2 Gillman. 3 Q Oh, I don't know if I heard the answer. 4 Did you post a sign for reward for an underground storage 5 tank at your premises? 6 A No. I never did receive a sign that I am 7 aware of. 8 Q And Investigator Hall came to your 9 building and checked. Is that your understanding? 10 A Correct. 11 Q And you have a small corkboard maybe two 12 feet by a foot and a half? 13 A We do. But we also post signs in our 14 window. 15 Q If you are asked? 16 A Yeah. If we are asked, yes. 17 Q And you don't recall posting any sign? 18 A Nothing. 19 MR. IREY: If any Member of the Grand Jury has 20 any questions of Mr. Gillman, I would be happy to ask 21 them. 22 Mr. Gillman, we didn't have a chance to 23 chat about the process. After I finish asking my 24 questions, any Member of the Grand Jury can ask a 25 question. I read to it myself. I read it into the 844 1 record. If you could answer it, that would be great. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 Q BY MR. IREY: Mr. Gillman, would the 4 authorization come from only you to post a sign? 5 A Yes. Mel, if he was there. But he is not 6 there as much as I am. Well, I can't say yes. No. It 7 would be me or Mel. And he is only there usually on 8 Sunday and Friday. And I am also there. So unless it 9 was asked on Sunday -- well, I am there, too, on Sunday. 10 So yeah, it would go through me. 11 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions? 12 Well, thank you, Mr. Gillman, for your 13 time. Sorry again about the wait. 14 GRAND JUROR: One more. 15 MR. IREY: Whoops. 16 Q Did you hear any of your employees 17 mention anything about this case? And if yes, tell us 18 about it. 19 A Yes, I did. I heard my waitresses talk 20 about it. Or I should say waitress talk about it, that 21 she was aware that something was going on with -- but 22 this was all afterwards that she told me -- when I 23 approached her and told her that I was subpoenaed to the 24 Grand Jury, she goes, Oh, what for? And I told her that 25 the removal of these tanks. And she goes, Oh, yeah. She 845 1 said, I seen various things go on in the restaurant. 2 Like you say, the table, maybe the meetings of these 3 people. 4 Q And that waitress's name is? 5 A Joyce Cain, C-A-I-N. 6 Q And she lives in the area? 7 A Yeah, she works five days a week for us. 8 Q 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.? 9 A 5:00 a.m. until 11:00 a.m. 10 Q Okay. And what about any of your 11 customers? 12 A I have heard 'em, yeah. I have heard 13 discussions where I cook. The counter sits directly 14 behind me. And I have heard discussions. But again, 15 that was after -- after the project. 16 Q Which individuals were discussing it? 17 A Some I can't even name. Just local -- 18 local people. Louie Podesta, Manuel Alvera, I think it 19 is. I am not sure on his last name. But he ran for 20 supervisor here in the county. Heard him talk about it. 21 And various individuals I don't even know their names. 22 Q Mr. Womack? 23 A He doesn't sit at the counter. He sits in 24 the dining room where I could not hear his conversation. 25 Q Okay. If you know, who waited on the 846 1 Womack group the morning of 5/2/98? 2 A What day of the week is that? 3 Q Saturday. 4 A What time? 5 Q 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. 6 A Okay. There is a little bit of transition 7 at 6:00 a.m. It would have been the lady I brought up 8 earlier, Joyce Cain. But at 6:00 a.m., she moves over to 9 the cooking station. And at that time, the waitress 10 would be Betty Lopez or -- excuse me. I have to think. 11 I will figure it out. Give me just a minute. Janey 12 Harnett. 13 Q Janey what? 14 A H-A-R-N-E-T T. 15 Q So that we can be careful with the people 16 we subpoena, is there a way for you to easily check to 17 see who was working that Saturday morning, to make sure 18 that all three of those individuals were? 19 A I have records, yes. 20 Q Could you let Investigator Hall know? 21 A Mm-hmm. 22 Q His phone number is xxx-xxxx. Do you need 23 a pen? 24 A Use this as a note pad? 25 Q Sure. 847 1 A 639 what? 2 MR. IREY: xxx-xxxx. Okay. 3 The admonition, please. 4 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. You are admonished not to 5 reveal to any person except as directed by the Court what 6 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 7 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 8 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 9 appearance before the Grand Jury. 10 This admonition continues unless and until 11 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 12 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 13 punishable as contempt of court. 14 This does not prevent you from discussing 15 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 16 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 17 Grand Jury. 18 Sir, if I could get you to date and sign 19 that I have read that to you, I will appreciate it. 20 THE WITNESS: Today is? 21 THE FOREPERSON: The 16th. 22 MR. IREY: John Henney. 23 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Henney, stand up here. 24 Remain standing. Raise your right hand. 25 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 848 1 you shall give in the investigation now pending before 2 the Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 3 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 4 THE WITNESS: I do. 5 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 6 MR. IREY: Can you go ahead and read to Mr. 7 Henney the self-incrimination statement? 8 THE FOREPERSON: Sure. 9 Mr. Henney, you are advised under the 10 Fifth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States 11 and also under Article 1 of the California Constitution 12 that you have a privilege against self-incrimination. 13 That is to say, you do not have to answer any questions 14 that may tend to incriminate you or subject you to 15 punishment for a crime. And you can refuse to answer any 16 such questions by stating that the answer may tend to 17 incriminate you. 18 Do you understand? 19 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. 20 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 21 22 (TIME NOTED: 3:47 P.M.) 23 ---oOo--- 24 25 JOHN HENNEY 849 1 Called as a witness herein by the People, 2 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 3 and testified as follows: 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. IREY: 6 Q Mr. Henney, if possible, if you could 7 answer audibly for the court reporter to take down your 8 statements. 9 A Yes. 10 Q When you got your subpoena, would you 11 describe to the Grand Jury what you said to the 12 investigator. 13 A I told him that I did not think it was 14 warranted. I thought it was a bunch of bull. 15 Q Really? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What were you going to wipe with the 18 subpoena? 19 A Nothing. 20 Q What did you tell my investigator you were 21 going to do with the subpoena? 22 A I didn't talk to your investigator besides 23 that statement. 24 Q So you didn't say you were going to wipe 25 your ass with the subpoena? 850 1 A No. 2 Q You are under penalty of perjury. 3 A (Witness shakes head.) 4 Q This is a Grand Jury. Are you going to 5 tell the truth today? 6 A Yes, I am telling the truth. He walked 7 over to my truck. He handed me the subpoena. 8 Q You said? 9 A I said, I think this is a bunch of bull. 10 I don't know where you think you are going with this. 11 Q Why is it a bunch of bull? 12 A Because I don't think it's warranted. 13 Q What would be warranted from an 14 underground storage tank removal? You teach us. 15 A I am not trying to teach anybody anything. 16 Q What would be warranted? 17 A I think, if the tank was contaminated or 18 the ground was contaminated, then it would be warranted. 19 Q You put clean rock on a contaminated 20 site. Do you remember that? 21 A Not on a contaminated site, no. 22 Q How do you know it wasn't contaminated? 23 A Because the County Environmental Health 24 man was there and told us to put the rock in the hole. 25 Q Did he say it's not contaminated? 851 1 A He said it was almost drinkable. 2 Q Almost drinkable? 3 A That's what he said. He said it had 4 rained the day before that, and it had washed water and 5 oil stuff off of the road, he said, and that it was -- 6 the soil was not contaminated. 7 Q Okay. 8 A Why would they put the rock in the hole if 9 it was contaminated? 10 Q Let's start again with the subpoena. I am 11 sorry I was so hard. I am going to be hard one more 12 time. 13 You received a subpoena, correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q From Investigator Lance Hayden, who is 16 going to testify -- you might not know that. From a 17 young man in his thirties? 18 A I guess. He didn't tell me his name, no. 19 Q He handed you the subpoena? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And your statement to him was? Now I have 22 something to what? 23 A I didn't say anything to that effect. 24 Q Okay. So tell me about the hazardous 25 material training you have received while working as an 852 1 employee of Sherrill Trucking. 2 A Haven't received any. 3 Q What do you do with your waste oil? 4 A It's put in a big container there and then 5 he calls some disposal company to come pump it out. 6 Q Who labels the container? 7 A That I don't know. 8 Q Have you seen a label on the container? 9 A Not that I recall. 10 Q Okay. What about antifreeze? 11 A Pardon me? 12 Q Antifreeze. What do you do with your 13 waste antifreeze? 14 A I don't believe there is any. 15 Q You never change the antifreeze in your 16 trucks? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q Just add new? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. What about your oil filters? 21 A I'm not sure how he disposes of 'em. 22 Q What do you do with them? Do you change 23 the oil? 24 A He does most of the service on all of the 25 trucks. 853 1 Q Have you changed the oil? 2 A Maybe once. Normally, that's done on the 3 weekends, and I don't do that. I don't work on weekends. 4 Q What about the hydraulic fluid in the -- 5 A I don't think that's ever been changed. 6 Q What about the brake fluid in the brakes? 7 A They are air brakes. They wouldn't have 8 brake fluid. 9 Q Okay. So you don't know what's done with 10 antifreeze, but you don't think any is created, correct? 11 A I have never seen radiator drained. I 12 really... 13 Q Okay. And you don't know what happens 14 with the waste oil filters? 15 A No. 16 Q How are they stored? 17 A I have seen 'em in five gallon buckets 18 there. 19 Q Have you seen them thrown in the dumpster? 20 A No, I haven't seen them thrown in there. 21 I have seen them in five gallon buckets. 22 Q Have you seen anybody pick them up? 23 A No, sir. I haven't really seen the guy 24 pick up the waste oil. I know somebody comes around and 25 picks it up. 854 1 Q Where do you get your gas? 2 A Pardon me? 3 Q Where does Mr. Sherrill buy gas? 4 A From Toms Sierra. 5 Q One of the bulk plants? 6 A Yes. 7 Q You have a card for that? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. In May of 1998, you didn't 10 participate in the demolition of that building, correct? 11 A No, sir. I was not here that weekend. I 12 was out of town. 13 Q Out of town. 14 And then the first work you did on that 15 property would have been bringing in crushed rock or 16 pumping out the waste water? 17 A No, I didn't pump out any waste water. 18 Q So you brought in the crushed rock? 19 A Yes. And they waited until the County 20 told 'em it was okay to put crushed rock back in the 21 hole. They waited for the test results. 22 Q Okay. And where did you go pick that rock 23 up? 24 A Mmmm... Cal West in Ione. 25 Q Okay. And then you delivered that to 505 855 1 Sutter Street. And did they have a little backhoe there 2 that was pushing it around? Or is there a way you can 3 dump the rock? 4 A Some of it went in the hole. There was a 5 backhoe in there to finish pushing it around. It wasn't 6 a -- I think it was a scraper tractor that was there to 7 push it in. 8 There was a man there from County 9 Environmental Health that was telling us where to put it 10 and was there watching 'em pump the waste water out. 11 Q Okay. Tell us which part of this you 12 think is ridiculous. 13 A The amount of money spent on this. 14 Q How much money has been spent on this? 15 A Well, I -- dollar-wise, I don't know. But 16 it's been going on since May. I would imagine it's quite 17 high. 18 Q When was the first time the County learned 19 where the contaminated soil went? 20 A I would have no way of knowing that. 21 Q Mark tell about you his interview? 22 A Pardon me? 23 Q Did Mark tell you about his interview? 24 A No. 25 Q Would it surprise you that last Monday, a 856 1 week ago, was the first time the County learned where the 2 contaminated soil went? 3 A I haven't... No, I did not know that. 4 Q Okay. Whose trucks hauled the soil, to 5 your knowledge, on that weekend? 6 A As far as I know, it was Mark's truck. 7 Q So Mark could have told us on Monday, May 8 4th, 1998 where the soil was? 9 A I didn't -- I didn't realize there was any 10 soil removed, to be honest with you. 11 Q So here is a hypothetical for you. If 12 Mark told us where the tank was on May 4th and Mark told 13 us where the contaminated soil went on May 4th and Mark 14 told us where the piping went on May 4th, what do you 15 think would have happened to this case? 16 A Don't have a clue. 17 Q You think we would have had to spend all 18 this money fishing out where the tank went and where the 19 soil went and where the piping went? 20 A Probably not. 21 Q So whose fault is it that we have had to 22 look for the tank and the piping and the soil for five, 23 six months? 24 A It was my understanding that -- from what 25 I have heard, that Mark never knew where the tank went; 857 1 that Mr. Womack knew where the tank went. 2 Q So Mark didn't tell you last week that he 3 told us that the tank went to -- I am going to ask this 4 very carefully. 5 Last week, photographs were taken at 6 Mark's property on Highway 88. Is that your 7 understanding? 8 A Yes. I was there when they took the 9 photographs, yes. 10 Q Did Mark tell you why they were taking 11 pictures of the truck and trailer? 12 A He said they wanted pictures of it for the 13 investigation. That's all I know. 14 Q He didn't tell you that, I told them that 15 it was this truck and this trailer? 16 A No. He did not say that. 17 Q And he didn't tell you that the tank went 18 to that location the first night? 19 A No. 20 Q So this is the first you have heard of 21 that? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 21 and 22, 24 Exhibit 21 and 22. Is that pretty much how the yard 25 looked a week ago? 858 1 A Yes, exactly. 2 Q And the story was something about Mark was 3 loading your truck with some kind of -- he called it 4 something crushed. 5 A Oh, grindings. 6 Q Grindings. He was loading the grindings. 7 You were waiting to haul the grindings. An investigator 8 showed up. He said, Remember me? I am the guy you said, 9 This is what you could do with your subpoena. 10 Do you remember that? 11 A No. He never said that. He never said 12 that. 13 Q He said you were much nicer the second 14 time. 15 Were you much nicer the second time than 16 the first time? 17 A I don't recall. 18 Q Okay. So was this the truck he took 19 pictures of? 20 A Yes. 21 Q But Mark didn't tell you why? 22 A He told me he was taking pictures of the 23 truck for this investigation. He told me that the 24 investigator -- his words to me were, The investigator 25 called and wanted to know if he could take pictures, 859 1 where the truck would be for pictures. And Mark told him 2 it would be at that site and he could come there and take 3 the pictures. 4 Q Okay. So you have had no training in 5 hazardous waste. What about hazardous material? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you have any -- 8 A To my knowledge, I have never hauled any. 9 Q I am not asking if you transport hazardous 10 wastes. I am just asking if you have any training in 11 hazardous wastes. 12 A No. 13 Q I am not trying to set you up. I am 14 trying to figure out -- 15 A I understand that. 16 Q Do you have quantities of waste over 50, 17 55 gallons at your property, Mark's property? 18 A Waste, as far as what? 19 Q Waste oil. 20 A I wouldn't be able to say for sure how 21 much was there. 22 Q What about waste batteries? Do you have 23 over 500 pounds of waste batteries? 24 A No. I think there might be three or four 25 batteries there that are cores for batteries that were 860 1 just replaced in a truck that haven't been returned. 2 Q Core charges? 3 A Yeah. 4 Q What do you do with solvents from working 5 on the trucks? 6 A The -- what we use is like a degreaser. 7 It's a biodegradable. It's made by Castore Oil, called 8 Super Clean or something. It's biodegradable water base 9 solvent. That's the only solvent that we have there. 10 Q What do you do with that when you are done 11 with it? 12 A It's a water base. You spray it on a 13 car. You use it. It's supposed to be environmentally 14 safe. 15 Q According to MSDS or according to Mark? 16 A According to the label on the -- excuse 17 me. It comes in one-gallon jugs. According to the label 18 on the jug. 19 Q So it says environmentally safe to dump 20 onto the grounds? 21 A Yeah. They use it in car washes, 22 everywhere. 23 Q Walk me through what you do with the 24 degreaser. Do you take grease off of something? 25 A We use it to get any residue off. 861 1 Q Okay. So it's going to be soap plus 2 grease? 3 A I would imagine. The stuff here just 4 dissolves it away. Like, if you have a stain or anything 5 on concrete, this stuff here will just dissolve it right 6 away. 7 Q What's it called? 8 A Mmmm... It's made by Castore Oil, same 9 oil as the oil company. I think it's called Super 10 Clean. You can buy it at Wal-Mart. It's in a white jug 11 with purple and some other color label on it. 12 Q A few years ago, I had to sue Simple 13 Green. They said the same thing. 14 I was just wondering if you have actually 15 read the label and it says it's okay to dump this stuff 16 on the ground. 17 A I haven't read the whole label, no. But I 18 mean, it says on the back that it's environmentally safe. 19 Q Okay. So you don't use turpentine or 20 anything along those lines? 21 A No. 22 Q What did you learn in May of 1994 about 23 the underground storage removal -- back to what you said 24 Bob Fourt said. 25 Bob Fourt said you could drink the water 862 1 and it wasn't contaminated. He said this to you? 2 A No. He made the statement that day that 3 the water was marginal. That the contaminants that were 4 in the water, is what he said that day, could have washed 5 right off of the street into the hole from the rain the 6 night before. He said there was no more contaminants in 7 there than what could have just washed off the street. 8 Q He told you this and who else? 9 A There was just a bunch of people standing 10 around there. 11 Q Do you remember who those other people 12 were? 13 A Not really. 14 Q Because Mark was telling some story about 15 the next day someone had thrown an oil filter or 16 something in there trying to set up Bob Womack. 17 Do you remember Mark saying that? 18 A I don't remember Mark saying anything to 19 that effect. I remember seeing an oil container floating 20 in the hole. 21 Q Like a one quart 30 weight? 22 A Yeah, something like that. 23 Q Okay. So the only thing you had to do was 24 bring in new rock? 25 A Yes. 863 1 Q But on Monday, did you come back to work 2 on Monday? 3 A Yeah. 4 Q May 4th. Were you out at Mark's yard on 5 88? 6 A I don't believe so. 7 Q Do you remember the white trailer being 8 around that week? 9 A White trailer is always around. 10 Q Do you remember if there was a tank on it? 11 A No. Never saw a tank on it. 12 Q Mark ever tell you that Womack is the one 13 that hauled the tank? 14 A No. Mark never said who hauled the tank 15 at all. 16 Q Mark ever tell you that he told Connie he 17 didn't drive the tank because he really didn't, but it 18 was his truck? 19 A The only thing -- the only comment Mark 20 ever made was, he wanted Connie protected so that if 21 anything, any problems arose, that she would not be 22 involved with it. 23 Q So he kept information from her. Is that 24 your understanding? 25 A That I wouldn't try to say one way or the 864 1 other. 2 Q Okay. So no training in hazardous waste. 3 No training in hazardous materials. You don't know what 4 happens with the oil filters. You don't change your 5 antifreeze. The waste oil probably gets hauled off or 6 you have been told it gets hauled off. 7 A There is a guy comes around and hauls it 8 off. And it's stored in 55 gallon drums. This is a 9 waste oil disposal place. He comes around and pumps it 10 out into a big tank. I don't know who does it. I know 11 Mark said that's how he is getting rid of the oil. 12 Q So it's stored in 55 gallon drums, plural? 13 A Depending. He got a big container now 14 that holds it that's made especially for that. 15 Q And have you gone through any training on 16 how to handle waste oil? 17 A No. 18 Q Have you been told not to mix solvents 19 with waste oil? 20 A Oh, yeah. Because they won't accept it 21 then. 22 Q Have you been told not to mix antifreeze 23 with waste oil? 24 A You don't mix anything with it. 25 Q Okay. 865 1 A I had my own trucks for 23 years. I know 2 you don't mix all that stuff. 3 Q How long have you been working for 4 Sherrill Trucking? 5 A Little over a year. 6 Q So walk me through the five most 7 ridiculous things about this investigation, please. 8 A The money and the time involved I think 9 is -- if the tank was contaminated or, I mean, leaking or 10 something, and there was a big contamination in the hole, 11 I could understand it. 12 But from my understanding, the tank was 13 fairly new tank and the ground around it was clean, and I 14 personally don't understand where all -- 15 Q Who told you the ground was clean? 16 A The inspector from the County that was 17 there from Environmental Health. 18 Q That was based on a sample that he had 19 taken? 20 A To my understanding, yes. They took 21 samples. And then we had to wait a day or two until they 22 got the results back. 23 Q Mark was the one that helped take those 24 samples, correct? 25 A I don't have -- don't have any idea. 866 1 Q Okay. So that's one. It's cost a lot of 2 money, taken a lot of time. 3 What else is ridiculous? Safety of human 4 life? Is that a ridiculous one, too? 5 A Well, I think human life is a lot safer 6 with that gas station gone than it was with it there. 7 Q How are you supposed to handle the 8 underground storage tank? 9 A Don't have a clue. Never removed one. 10 Never had anything to do with one. 11 Q Have you ever transported one? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you know you are supposed to put dry 14 ice in it before you pull it out of the hole? 15 A Nope. I told you I don't know anything 16 about moving one. 17 Q Have you learned since then? 18 A Not to touch one. That's for sure. 19 Q Have you asked anybody -- have you said, 20 Is this an explosive hazard? Or are they making it up? 21 A It was my understanding that it's legal to 22 haul it over a highway if it's not over 150 gallons of 23 gas or something in it. 24 Q Do you get legal advice from retired CHP, 25 road cops or from attorneys? 867 1 A Didn't get it from anybody. 2 Q Where did you get -- 3 A Hearsay. 4 Q Hearsay from whom? 5 A From the coffee shop one morning. There 6 was a bunch of guys talking. Somebody there said, Well, 7 if it doesn't have over 150 gallons in it, you are legal 8 to haul it over a highway. 9 Q Who said that? 10 A I don't remember who said it. 11 Q So today you believe that to be the truth? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q Okay. So that's two. 14 What else was wrong about the way this was 15 handled? 16 A The length of time. 17 Q You think it's fair that Mark Sherrill 18 lied to the District Attorney's Office? 19 A I don't know for a fact that he did. 20 Q If Mark Sherrill is going to come in and 21 testify that he lied to the District Attorney's Office, 22 do you think that was fair? 23 A No. Not then, no. 24 Q If Billy Wolin has already testified he 25 lied to the District Attorney's Office, do you think that 868 1 was fair? 2 A Not if he lied, no, it's not fair. 3 Q If Bob Womack is shown to have lied to the 4 District Attorney's Office and this Grand Jury, do you 5 think that's fair? 6 A No, I don't think anyone should have lied. 7 Q So if Mark Sherrill knew where the tank 8 was on Monday, May 4th, do you think that would have made 9 it easier to resolve the case than the way it went? 10 A Oh, it would have made it way easier. 11 Q So the only work you did on that site was 12 bringing rock in, four or five loads, 100, 107 tons? 13 A Whatever it was that went in there. I 14 don't really remember. I just brought the rock in there 15 and dumped it. There was somebody there to push it in 16 the hole. 17 Q Is there anything else you would like the 18 Grand Jurors to know regarding your activities at that 19 site, 505 Sutter Street? 20 A That's all I did there. There is nothing 21 else I could... 22 Q Okay. If possible, could you go back and 23 read the soap container and see what you are supposed to 24 do with the waste. That would be... 25 A Yeah. There at the shop. 869 1 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of this 2 witness. If any Members of the Grand Jury have any 3 questions of this witness, I would be happy to ask. 4 I didn't have a chance to brief you on 5 this, Mr. Henney. 6 Q Is Mr. Henney the right pronunciation? 7 A Yes. 8 Q At this point, any member of the Grand 9 Jury can ask any question. I read it to make sure it's 10 not asking for a legal conclusion from you. I read it to 11 you and you answer it, please. 12 From the first of May 1998 until today at 13 3:30 p.m., have you ever had breakfast, lunch or dinner 14 with Bob Womack at Mel's Diner? 15 A Probably. 16 Q How many times? 17 A I would say maybe two or three. And 18 that's at the most. I am not -- I don't ever remember. 19 I remember having one meal there that Bob Womack was 20 there. But other than that, I wouldn't. 21 Q Okay. From May 1st, 1998 until today at 22 3:30 p.m., have you had breakfast, lunch or dinner with 23 Bob Womack anywhere other than Mel's Diner? 24 A No, I don't think so. 25 Q From May -- 870 1 A The only time I ever see Bob Womack is if 2 he stops by the shop or something or if we happen to be 3 doing a job for him. 4 Q About how many times since May has he 5 stopped by the shop? 6 A I wouldn't even hazard a guess on that. I 7 mean, you know, in the evening, there is always people 8 stop by the shop. I wouldn't even try to hazard a guess 9 on that. 10 Q More than a dozen? 11 A I would say a dozen, I guess, if you 12 wanted to figure. 13 Q I have no idea. 14 A I don't either. 15 Q Okay. When you did have breakfast, lunch 16 or dinner with Bob Womack, did you discuss the 17 underground storage tank scenario? 18 A Nope. I -- oh, you are -- no, I am not 19 even sure I had breakfast with him since that time. 20 Q Breakfast, lunch or dinner. You said you 21 had -- 22 A I think we had lunch there one day, but I 23 am thinking that it was more towards last winter. It 24 might have even been before this time. 25 Q Have you ever discussed the underground 871 1 storage tank with Bob Womack? 2 A No. I have heard him and Mark discussing 3 it, but I haven't been involved in the discussions, no. 4 Q So at Mark's place of business -- that's 5 called Martell there? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q You have heard Bob Womack and Mark 8 Sherrill discussing the tank? 9 A Discussing business. I don't -- when Mark 10 is talking to people about business, I leave the area. 11 It's of no concern to me. 12 Q If I don't ask this, one of the Grand 13 Jurors will. A minute ago, you said you heard them 14 discussing the tank. Have you heard them discussing the 15 tank? 16 A I heard them discussing the job. 17 Q Before or after? 18 A After. I never heard about the job 19 before. 20 Q Recently? 21 A Couple, two three weeks ago maybe. 22 Q So two or three weeks ago, they were 23 discussing the job? 24 A They were talking about the job and the 25 investigation. But I don't have any knowledge of what 872 1 about it. 2 Q Is that the only time? 3 A It's the only time I actually heard him. 4 Q Did you hear the substance of their 5 conversation? 6 A No. I heard them talking about something 7 about the investigation, and... 8 Q How often have you personally hauled 9 contaminated soil from any location to Georgia Pacific? 10 A Never have that I know of. 11 Q How often have you hauled debris to 12 Georgia Pacific from a site not Georgia Pacific? 13 A It seems to me there was one other time 14 that we took some cement there from somewhere, but... 15 Q You slip the guard a $20 bill? How does 16 that work? 17 A No guard. 18 Q Just drive in, dump whatever, leave? 19 A No. We were given permission by a fellow 20 named Don who was in charge of Fiberform, the new company 21 who is taking over there. 22 Q Who was in charge or who is in charge? 23 A I haven't seen him in quite a while. I 24 don't know if he is still there or not. 25 Q He gave you permission to dump on that 873 1 property? 2 A Mark had asked him about dumping some 3 concrete there. He said, Dump it where they dumped all 4 the rest of it. That they were going to knock all that 5 down and fill it in. 6 Q Were you there when Mark was told this? 7 Or Mark just told you this Don guy said it was okay? 8 A I wasn't there on the site. We were there 9 and Mark was talking to Don. And then Mark said Don said 10 it would be okay to dump that concrete over there. 11 Q That was concrete from where? 12 A I don't really remember. I just remember 13 there was one other time that we did dump -- it wasn't 14 very much. It was, like, half a load from something. 15 And Don had given permission to dump it there. 16 Q When you say "one other time," that means 17 a time other than when? 18 A Pardon me? 19 Q I'm sorry. That was a poorly worded 20 question. 21 You said only one other time did we dump 22 there. So that was the first time? In order to have 23 another time, you must have had a first time. 24 A We dumped all the other concrete there 25 from the Georgia Pacific site. 874 1 Q That was on-site to on-site? 2 A Yeah. 3 Q So off-site to Georgia Pacific happened 4 one time with you? 5 A Yeah. Wasn't even a full truck load. It 6 was half a load or something. 7 Q I think you already answered this. If 8 not, could you please. 9 How long have you worked for Sherrill 10 Trucking? 11 A Approximately a year, something like that. 12 Q What day were you told it was okay to fill 13 the pit by Bob Fourt? 14 A I think it was the Tuesday after -- 15 whenever they got the results back on the test. 16 Q What day did you fill the pit? 17 A I believe we started filling it that day 18 and finished it the next morning, if I am not mistaken. 19 I don't -- it doesn't seem to me that we filled it all 20 that day. It seems to me there might have been a load or 21 two coming the next day. I am not positive. 22 Q Did you fill it to above the groundwater 23 level? Or do you remember? 24 A It was filled up level to make a parking 25 lot out of it. 875 1 Q You said the first day, you don't think 2 you filled the whole pit? 3 A See, they were still there with the 4 tractor when I left that night. And they were pushing 5 the rock into the hole. And I had to get the truck off 6 of there because it was around 4:30, 5:00, and there was 7 starting to get some heavy traffic there. They stopped 8 the traffic, let me get the truck out. And they stayed 9 there finishing it up. 10 And it seems to me that a load came in the 11 next morning, but I am not sure. The weight tags would 12 show that. 13 Q You are sure Bob Fourt said all this? 14 Earlier today, we had someone who took a sample said, 15 when the tractor hit the soil, that gasoline came out of 16 the soil. So I am just trying to see if you are sure 17 that -- 18 A I was never there and saw anything like 19 that. I know that they said there was a sewer line that 20 came up there, that they had to plug that. There was 21 some gas venting out of a sewer line that had to be 22 plugged. I remember somebody saying that. But other 23 than that... 24 Q Okay. So as of today's date, Mark didn't 25 tell you that Sherrill trucks hauled the tank? 876 1 A No. 2 Q Or that Bob Womack drove the truck? 3 A I know he said that he did not get paid 4 for that day, that he was renting equipment to Bob 5 Womack. That was a comment that he made to me. He said, 6 I am getting pulled into this thing. And I rented him 7 the equipment. I didn't even charge him my labor or 8 anything. 9 Q What's Nick Hernandez's story on this? 10 A Don't have a clue. I haven't talked to 11 Nick Hernandez in two, three months. 12 Q But back in May, when he was hauling the 13 soil, did you talk to him about the underground storage 14 tank? 15 A No. 16 Q You were still working -- do you own part 17 of Sherrill Trucking? 18 A Pardon me? 19 Q Do you own part of Sherrill Trucking? 20 A No. 21 Q So you never discussed this with 22 Hernandez? 23 A (Witness shakes head.) That was on a 24 weekend. I wasn't even here. I was out of town that 25 weekend. 877 1 Q One of the questions the Grand Jurors 2 asked is, how many people have you talked to about this 3 underground storage tank removal? 4 A It's the talk of the town. I mean, 5 everybody in -- if you go to Mel's coffee shop in the 6 morning, they are all talking about it. 7 Q How many other illegal underground storage 8 tank pulls do you know about? 9 A I don't know of any. 10 Q How many do Mel's talk about? 11 A I haven't really heard anybody talk about 12 any. 13 Q Okay. 14 A I was told they weren't aware this was an 15 illegal removal. 16 Q Who were you told that by? 17 A Mark. Mark said, I didn't know it was 18 illegal to take it out. 19 Q Mark is, like, a volunteer fire guy, 20 correct? 21 A I -- yeah. 22 Q So is his dad? 23 A (Witness nods head.) 24 Q And he looks you in the eye and says, I 25 don't know it's illegal to pull the tank. That's what he 878 1 told you? 2 A Yeah, that's what they said. 3 Q Is that what Mark Sherrill told you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q He said, I did not know that you needed a 6 permit to pull an underground storage tank? 7 A He did not know you needed a special 8 permit. Bob Womack told him he had a permit. 9 Bob Womack contacted me on a Friday 10 afternoon before the gas station was removed, asking if I 11 could work that weekend. I said no, I was going to be 12 out of town. He told me, I have a permit to take down 13 the gas station, Highway 49. They wanted us to do it on 14 the weekend because it's too close to the school. And it 15 was either that weekend or wait a couple weeks, because 16 the following weekend was Mother's Day or something and 17 they didn't want 'em to do it on that weekend. That was 18 the first I heard about it. 19 Q And did he say, I have a permit to take 20 down the station? Or did he say he had a permit to pull 21 the underground storage tank? 22 A He said, I have a permit to remove the gas 23 station. 24 Q Did he tell you that he needed permits 25 from Cal-Trans for the road? 879 1 A No. 2 Q Did he tell you he had been told by the 3 County that he needed to get a permit to pull the 4 underground storage tank? 5 A No. 6 Q Did he tell you that he was told by the 7 City to go to the Environmental Health and get the 8 appropriate permits? 9 A No. Mr. Womack's words to me were, I have 10 a permit to remove the gas station. They have to do it 11 on the weekend. It's either this weekend or wait three 12 weeks. 13 Q What's your phone number? 14 A 267-1173. 15 Q Do you know if he called you on a cell 16 phone or -- if you know? I am just wondering, did he 17 call you at home? 18 A No. He didn't call me at all. I believe 19 we were still working for Wolin and Sons on Ridge Road. 20 And I saw him in person that day, wherever we were 21 working, somewhere around New York Ranch or Ridge Road. 22 And he happened to come by and stop. 23 Q So he stopped. Who is "we"? You and Nick 24 or -- 25 A Well, the whole crew was working there. 880 1 We were working for Wolin and Sons. 2 Q Who is the crew? 3 A All the Wolins crew. It was nobody else 4 from Mark Sherrill except me. 5 Q So when you were working for Womack on the 6 bringing in the rock, was he acting as the general 7 contractor? 8 A I wouldn't know that. 9 Q Did he pay you by the hour? 10 A He paid Mark; not me. 11 Q So you were working for Mark that day? 12 A Yes. 13 Q If you were employed -- I will ask yours. 14 Withdraw the question. 15 Do you think -- I am going to rephrase 16 this question. Do you think the next time you hear about 17 a case involving safety issues, will you please -- or do 18 you think you would think after safety of everyone, 19 including children? 20 A I would think you would always think of 21 safety. Unless I am misunderstanding the way the 22 question you are asking. 23 Q Do you believe everything you hear from 24 your friends at breakfast instead of finding out the 25 facts and the law? 881 1 A No. 2 Q So what have you done to figure out the 3 facts and law in this case, other that what your friends 4 have told you? 5 A Just what you see in the paper and stuff. 6 Q So how many hours have you spent reading 7 the newspaper and chatting with your friends since May 8 2nd, 1998? Do you think, plus or minus five hours? 9 A Five hours. 10 Q About five hours? 11 A I would imagine. 12 Q And how much time have you spent learning? 13 A You hear a lot of talk going on at the 14 coffee shop. Ninety percent of it, you got to let go 15 over your head because... 16 Q How much time have you been looking into 17 lawful handling of underground storage tanks and 18 hazardous wastes relating to underground storage tanks? 19 A Absolutely none. It's nothing I care to 20 get involved in. 21 Q Do you think you would be a better 22 employee if you had some type of hazardous material 23 training? 24 A Not if I wasn't going to handle hazardous 25 material. 882 1 Q In order to recognize hazardous material, 2 do you think that it would be beneficial to have some 3 training in hazardous materials? 4 A Possibly. 5 Q Mark Sherrill told me that he did not want 6 to plead to a misdemeanor with conditions regarding 7 hazardous wastes -- I will try to turn this into a 8 question -- because he didn't want to accidentally haul 9 waste asbestos for D.H. Wynn. 10 Have you hauled waste asbestos for D.H. 11 Wynn? 12 A To my knowledge, I never hauled anything 13 for D.H. Wynn. 14 Q Do you know how to spot asbestos and/or 15 transit pipe containing asbestos? 16 A No. 17 Q Would you be able to, do you think, if you 18 had some training? 19 A I would hope so. 20 MR. IREY: Any other questions from any of the 21 Grand Jurors? Just I think one or two more, Mr. Henney. 22 Q What day of the week and date were you at 23 505 Sutter? 24 A Tuesday or Wednesday. 25 Q And you said you think it took you two 883 1 days to bring the rock in? 2 A It didn't take two days. It might have 3 spanned two days because it -- it seems to me we started 4 in the afternoon because they didn't get a clearance 5 until late in the afternoon. And it seems to me we might 6 have hauled two loads or a couple loads in on a Tuesday 7 and then another load or two in on a Wednesday. But I 8 mean, we are going back to May. It wasn't... 9 Q Does Sherrill Trucking have a hazardous 10 waste haulers license? 11 A No. 12 Q Do you have a hazardous waste haulers 13 license? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you have any hazardous waste training 16 pursuant to Federal or State law? 17 A No. You already asked that. No, I don't 18 have anything like that. 19 Q Do you have any training in health and 20 safety training for hazardous waste workers as required 21 by Federal OSHA? 22 A No. I have never had any hazardous waste 23 training. 24 Q In 24 years of trucking, you have never 25 hauled hazardous wastes? 884 1 A Cattle and hay. 2 Q Now you are hauling rock and? 3 A Rock and asphalt. 4 Q Filings? What was that? 5 A Grindings. It's just ground-up asphalt. 6 Q Does Mark Sherrill have a grinder? 7 A No. 8 Q So he purchases grindings from 9 ex-Cal-Trans -- 10 A Cal-Trans, George Reed. These Highway 49 11 jobs and stuff. 12 MR. IREY: Any other questions of the Grand 13 Jurors? 14 Mr. Henney, at this time, the Foreman will 15 read you what's called an admonition about your testimony 16 here today. 17 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 18 to any person except as directed by the Court what 19 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 20 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 21 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 22 appearance before the Grand Jury. 23 This admonition continues unless and until 24 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 25 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 885 1 punishable as contempt of court. 2 This does not prevent you from discussing 3 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 4 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 5 Grand Jury. 6 Sir, if I can get you to date and sign 7 that I read you that admonition, please. 8 MR. IREY: Thank you, Mr. Henney. 9 Jeff Taylor. 10 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Taylor, if you can remain 11 standing and raise your right hand, please. 12 THE WITNESS: Sure. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Do you solemnly swear that the 14 evidence you shall give in this investigation now pending 15 before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole 16 truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 19 (TIME NOTED: 4:27 P.M.) 20 ---oOo--- 21 JEFF TAYLOR 22 Called as a witness herein by the People, 23 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 24 and testified as follows: 25 886 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. IREY: 3 Q Mr. Taylor? 4 A Yes. 5 Q This is the first case I have done where 6 every single name was relatively routine. 7 Could you spell your last name. 8 A T-A-Y-L-O-R. 9 Q Mr. Taylor, are you currently employed? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Where are you currently employed? 12 A Owens Illinois. 13 Q And do you have a side business? 14 A Yes. Jeff Taylor Construction. 15 Q Okay. And what is your job at Owens 16 Illinois? 17 A Quality control manager. 18 Q And how long have you been at Owens 19 Illinois? 20 A Eighteen years. 21 Q I'm sorry? 22 A Eighteen years. 23 Q Does Luke Womack work at Owens Illinois? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Do you know any other Womacks? 887 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did anyone tell you to answer yes or no 3 to -- could you please take your hat off. 4 A I'm sorry. 5 Q That's okay. 6 Did anyone tell you to answer yes or no to 7 these questions today? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Whom? 10 A A friend of mine. 11 Q Named Mike who? 12 A Pardon me? 13 Q Was his name Mike? 14 A No. 15 Q What was his name? 16 A Mmmm... Charles Sager. 17 Q When did Charles tell you this? 18 A Oh, the day after I got the subpoena. I 19 am not sure of the day. 20 Q Wasn't that supposed to be secret? 21 A Well... 22 Q Just wondering. Did you think it was 23 supposed to be secret? 24 A I don't know. 25 Q Who else did you tell that you were 888 1 subpoenaed to the Grand Jury? 2 A My wife. 3 Q People at work? 4 A No. 5 Q Luke? 6 A Pardon me? 7 Q Luke? 8 A No. 9 Q Lou? 10 A Yes. 11 Q They were there when you got the subpoena, 12 I think, correct? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you get subpoenaed at home or at work? 15 A Work. 16 Q Okay. So what else did this -- was his 17 name Steve? What was the person that told you to say yes 18 or no? 19 A Charles. 20 Q What else did Charles tell you to say? 21 A That's pretty much it. 22 Q Okay. I will give you a hint, and you can 23 take this for whatever it is worth. If you answer yes or 24 no, this will take much longer than it will if you give 25 narrative answers. 889 1 So with that said, could you tell us all 2 you know about the underground storage tank being removed 3 there from 505 Sutter Street. 4 A I am not sure what day it happened. But I 5 think it was on a Saturday. I was up going to St. Salvan 6 Mission to go to my daughter's softball game. And my son 7 was in the truck with me. And he said, Hey, Dad, there 8 is Luke. I looked over. And that's when I saw the 9 excavator and the trucks tearing down the building. 10 It was the last I thought about it. I 11 never -- until Monday morning, and I asked Luke at the 12 break what they were doing. And he just said, My dad or 13 my brother had purchased the service station. My dad was 14 tearing it down for him. 15 Q So you switched mid gear there. So did 16 Luke say my dad -- I mean, my brother? Or did Luke say 17 my brother? Or did Luke say my dad? 18 A He said, My dad was tearing it down for my 19 brother. 20 Q Okay. What else was said? 21 A That was it. 22 Q He didn't say, you know, my dad is in 23 trouble? 24 A No. He didn't say anything. 25 Q That was Monday after the gas station was 890 1 knocked down, correct? 2 A Yeah. 3 Q About how long did it take before you 4 heard that the gas tank was out at Owens Illinois? 5 A About 45 minutes. 6 Q So you and Luke had a discussion on your 7 break sometime that day. 8 A Yeah, 9:00. 9 Q So at 9:00, 9:00 a.m. at Owens Illinois, 10 the break, you just happened to say, Hey, I was going to 11 softball. What were you guys doing? 12 A (Witness nods head.) 13 Q If you could speak up so the person all 14 the way in the back could hear you. 15 A Okay. 16 Q Yes? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And then 45 minutes later, what happened? 19 A I was walking out of a production meeting, 20 starts at 9:30. And plant superintendent said, just in 21 passing, Oh, yeah, by the way, I got a call from -- I 22 can't remember if he said it was Dave Mason or if it was 23 from somebody at the County office. 24 Q With that being person being Phil? 25 A Joses. 891 1 Q He told us today it's Joses. 2 A Joses. 3 Q And that's who told you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And what else did he say about this phone 6 call he received? 7 A That was about it. 8 Q He said he received a call from Dave 9 Mason. He asked if we had a tank? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q And you said, Thanks for telling me. I am 12 going to go do whatever else I do. Or did you respond? 13 A I said, This wouldn't happen to be 14 concerning the fuel tank that came from Jackson, would 15 it, Mason Oil? 16 He said, Yeah, matter of fact, it would. 17 Q Why did you ask that question? 18 A Because I happened to see the demolition 19 of the building. 20 Q Did Luke, during the first break, tell you 21 that they removed an underground storage tank also? 22 A No, not at that time. 23 Q Okay. So then Phil said, Yeah, you are 24 right. How did you know? 25 And then you told him what? 892 1 A I told him, Well, I was going through 2 Jackson and I saw the demolition of the service station. 3 Q And he said, Well, Mason thinks the tank 4 is out here? 5 A Yeah. I can't remember if it was Dave 6 Mason or somebody from the County. But it was somebody 7 said, Well, they think we have got the tank out here. 8 Q And you told him? 9 A No, not that I am aware of. 10 Q Okay. Had you worked at all between 11 Saturday at 3:00 and Monday at 6:00 a.m.? 12 A Not at Owens. 13 Q Okay. Had you been -- did you bring an 14 underground storage tank out there? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. This was the first day? 17 A Pardon me? 18 Q This was Monday? 19 A It might have been Tuesday. It was the 20 first day he was back. I hadn't seen him. 21 Q That's what I was going to ask, because I 22 remember he said he had been out sick a couple of days. 23 A It might have been Tuesday. He works -- 24 we work shift work. We don't get the plant rolling until 25 3:00 Monday afternoon. It might have been Tuesday at 893 1 break. It was Monday or Tuesday at 9:00 in the morning. 2 Q Then at 9:45, Phil said -- 3 A Yeah. 4 Q -- this. And then did Phil come back and 5 say at any point that he had looked for the tank? 6 A Mmmm... No, he didn't say anything. 7 Q Okay. 8 A Actually, I think it was Monday. 9 Q So then you went out. And did you ever 10 check with Luke again about this underground storage 11 tank? 12 A No. 13 Q Ever? 14 A No. 15 Q Now, I don't have a very good memory any 16 more. It seemed as if you told Mr. Hall and myself that 17 you chatted with Luke about the reward and return of the 18 tank. 19 A Yes, I did. 20 Q Okay. So other than the time you just 21 forgot that you talked to Luke and the first time you 22 talked to Luke, how many other times did you talk to Luke 23 regarding the underground storage tank? 24 A Many. 25 Q How many? 894 1 A Many. 2 Q So why did you answer that you hadn't talk 3 to Luke? 4 A Not in that week at all, I hadn't. 5 Q So you were answering for that first week? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q So eventually, you started talking about 8 the tank again? 9 A When it started to hit the newspapers and 10 people started asking more and more questions. 11 Q Okay. And what did Luke say happened to 12 the tank? 13 A He didn't have no idea what happened to 14 the tank. 15 Q What did Bob Womack say happened to the 16 tank? 17 A He pretty much said the same thing. 18 Q In fact, Bob Womack loaned you 80,000 19 bucks earlier this year; is that correct? 20 A No. 21 Q How much? 22 A 87,000. 23 Q When did he loan you that money? 24 A August 7th. 25 Q Okay. And something about a house, 895 1 correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Go ahead and explain the story to the 4 Grand Jurors, please. 5 A Mmmm... Bob had gone on vacation. And 6 while he was gone, his son owned a home down in Lake 7 Camanche. 8 Q His son whom? 9 A His son being Larry. Larry had -- the 10 power and water were all shut off. All the basic 11 utilities to the house were shut off. 12 And, well, Bob and Mrs. Womack had gone on 13 vacation. Larry moved into the house, to Bob and June's 14 house, Mrs. Womack's house. 15 Q He moved from the Camanche house to the 16 Ridge Road house? 17 A Yeah, just for a day or two, here and 18 there. That was about it. Just -- more or less just to 19 pass the time of day, to go swimming, use the swimming 20 pool while Mom and Dad were gone. 21 And Luke said, well, he told his father 22 that Larry had gone to the house and had been in the 23 house. And he says, Well, we will talk about that when 24 we get back from vacation. 25 When he got back from vacation, he 896 1 mentioned to Luke, actually, while Luke -- while Mr. and 2 Mrs. Womack were on vacation. 3 Q Do you know for a fact he mentioned it to 4 Luke? Or is this what Luke told you? 5 A This is what Luke told me. 6 Q You can't testify to that. 7 A Luke had a telephone conversation stating 8 what went on in the house. 9 Q That's in your presence? Or what Luke 10 told you? 11 A Again, that's what Luke -- 12 Q You can't testify to that either. We have 13 to strike that, too. Eventually -- 14 A Luke said his Dad was going to sell the 15 house when he got back from vacation. I said, Well, I am 16 interested if he is going to sell. That was, I think, on 17 a Tuesday, Monday, Tuesday. 18 Q Early August? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q Okay. 21 A And Mr. Womack came back from vacation, I 22 think around -- I want to say the 4th. I got a telephone 23 call from him asking if I was serious and interested in 24 the house. I said yes. I went out to Camanche, looked 25 at it on the 6th, and I purchased it on the 7th. 897 1 Q For how much money? 2 A $89,000, 87,000. 3 Q And did he take any money down? 4 A Zero. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Excuse me. He took the first payment, 7 which I think is one of photocopy bills there. 8 Q There's an August 7th check here. 9 A Should be for in the high sixes. 10 Q You made that check out to Mr. Robert 11 Womack? 12 A $664.94. 13 Q Is -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q Not KRL? 16 A No. 17 Q You knew KRL owned the house? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Why weren't you making the check out to 20 KRL Partnership? 21 A Because Mr. Womack told me who to make the 22 check to. 23 Q Mr. Taylor, I think the Grand Jury Foreman 24 at the end of this is going to fold all these documents 25 into one Grand Jury exhibit, and then we will make copies 898 1 and get those back to you within a day or two. 2 A Sure. No problem. 3 MR. IREY: I am going to mark this one Grand Jury 4 Exhibit Number? 5 THE SECRETARY: 64. 6 MR. IREY: 64. That's a copy of two checks with 7 the backs of two checks. 8 Q How does that work? Does your bank send 9 you copies of the checks' backs? 10 A I get the originals. Matter of fact, 11 those originals -- I mean, those copies right there, I 12 think the originals are in a manila envelope. 13 MR. IREY: Okay. Have you put the sticker down 14 yet? Put two checks in, as opposed to the copies. Two 15 original checks. 16 Q Marked Grand Jury Exhibit 64. Two checks 17 made out, one to Robert Womack, one to Bob Womack? 18 A Yes. 19 Q One is Check 1510 for 660.94? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And one for 1587? 22 A Yes. 23 Q I apologize. One is numbered 1587. 24 And on the back of both of those checks, 25 the Check No. 1587 is the one I am most interested in, 899 1 that account number. 2 A Yes. 3 Q It's signed by whom? 4 A Bob Womack. 5 Q And what does the rest of it say? 6 A Paid to 0148-200-5XX. 7 Q Okay. You were buying this house as a 8 spec house? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And he specifically told you not to make 11 the checks out to KRL? 12 A No, he did not. He just said, Go ahead 13 and write my name on 'em. 14 Q So 87,000 bucks -- oh, right here. 15 Western Land Title Company, KRL Partnership. Purchase 16 price, $90,000. Initial deposit, 5,000. Then there was 17 going to be a -- this is a 1994 document. 18 A That's his original purchase. 19 Q So he has a handwritten note? 20 A That's the one. 21 Q This is your contract for a house? 22 A That is it. 23 Q With Bob Womack? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Give us another 45 seconds. We won't 900 1 keep you. We will have to examine these. I don't think 2 we will call you back. We will make copies of these. 3 So you made this deal, you made two or 4 three house payments, and sold it for a profit, correct? 5 A Yes. It opened escrow, I think, 6 Wednesday. 7 Q How much profit? 8 A Pardon me? 9 Q You close escrow this week? 10 A No. It opened last -- whenever Veteran's 11 Day is, is when the escrow was opened. 12 Q Okay. So you are still making payments to 13 Mr. Womack? 14 A He told me not to make any more payments. 15 Let escrow handle it. 16 Q Okay. And at that point, then you will 17 get some cash out of the deal? 18 A I don't know if I will get cash or check 19 or... 20 Q Okay. So in paying Mr. Womack, you have 21 been up to his house and you personally drive and hand 22 the check to him, correct? 23 A Every payment. 24 Q And you said that you have had 25 conversations with Mr. Womack regarding this underground 901 1 storage tank issue; is that correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Didn't you have a long conversation with 4 Mr. Womack once about this underground storage tank 5 issue? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. Could you briefly describe what the 8 conversation was to the Members of the Grand Jury. 9 A I would have to say more or less it was an 10 overview. Basically, more like a one-sided overview. 11 His opinion of what was going on and what was taking 12 place and allegations against him. 13 Q Okay. Did he tell you he moved the tank? 14 A No. 15 Q Did he tell you that it was Sherrill's 16 truck? 17 A No. 18 Q Did he tell you he didn't know whose truck 19 it was? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did he tell you who drove the truck? 22 A No. 23 Q Did he tell you he didn't know who drove 24 the truck? 25 A Yes. 902 1 Q Did he tell you he drove the truck? 2 A No. 3 Q Did he tell you he was told to get permits 4 from the County? 5 A No. 6 Q Did he tell you he was told to get permits 7 from the City? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did he tell you he was told by the City to 10 go to the County and get additional permits? 11 A No. 12 Q Did he tell you that the City told him 13 that his one demolition permit covered everything? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And who did he tell you at the City told 16 him that? 17 A He did not say. 18 Q Did he tell you whether it was a man or a 19 woman? 20 A He did not say. 21 Q Okay. Did he show you the permit? 22 A No. 23 Q Did he show you any documentation 24 whatsoever? 25 A No. 903 1 Q Did he tell you that he was leading a 2 brigade of people to write letters to the editor? 3 A No. 4 Q Did he show you any of the letters to the 5 editor? 6 A No. 7 Q Did he tell you that what he did was 8 legal? 9 A Could you rephrase that? 10 Q Did he tell you what he did he thought was 11 legal? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And did he say he had checked with anybody 14 whether or not it was legal to pull underground storage 15 tanks on weekends without permits? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you know or did you know ahead of time 18 that it was illegal to pull underground storage tanks 19 without permits on weekends? 20 A I'm sorry. Could you ask that? 21 Q You are in the construction business, 22 correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q California State License Board Number 25 708132? 904 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you have a hazardous certificate? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know what it takes to get a 5 hazardous certificate? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Do you need a hazardous certificate to 8 pull underground storage tanks? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you know that before May 2nd, 1998? 11 A Yes. 12 Q So did you know that nobody on site, if 13 you know, had a hazardous materials certificate? 14 A I have no idea. 15 Q Did you know -- did you know before May 16 2nd, 1998, that permits were required to pull underground 17 storage tanks? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did you know there was a difference 20 between a demolition permit and an underground storage 21 tank permit? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Have you told Mr. Womack that? 24 A No. 25 Q Mr. Womack pretty much leads 905 1 conversations? 2 A No. 3 Q Why did you not tell Mr. Womack that 4 everybody knows you need permits to pull underground 5 storage tanks? Not your place? 6 A It is not my place. I was not there. 7 8 Q As a friend of Mr. Womack's, do you think 9 for the future you might pass on information that he 10 needs to check with all regulatory agencies before he 11 pulls permits on weekends? 12 A No. 13 Q You don't feel like you are that close of 14 a friend? 15 A (Witness shakes head.) 16 Q Have you ever told Luke that you need 17 additional permits? 18 A No. 19 Q Have you ever told Luke that he needs 20 additional training? 21 A No. 22 Q Have you -- do you have a 40-hour Federal 23 OSHA training? 24 A A 40-hour? 25 Q Yes. 906 1 A No. 2 Q Do you have eight-hour? 3 A Eight. 4 Q Okay. And you are testifying truthfully 5 today? 6 A Yes. 7 Q So the only underground storage tank issue 8 was Luke, week one, and all of the chitchat since May 9 2nd, 1998? 10 A Probably. May 9th or so, yeah. 11 Q Besides that, you don't have specific 12 knowledge? 13 A None. 14 Q Did Mr. Womack tell about you the return 15 of the tank? 16 A Yes. 17 Q How did that miracle happen? 18 A Let's see. It was delivered to a Stockton 19 fuel yard or service station yard. That's all I know. 20 Q You got this from Bob Womack? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Did he tell you he put an ad in the paper? 23 A He said he had put an ad in the -- yes, in 24 the newspaper. 25 Q Did he tell you he told us that he put an 907 1 ad in the Sacramento Bee and was going to put an ad in 2 the Stockton, Lodi and Amador paper? 3 A No. 4 Q How many papers did he tell you he put the 5 ad in? 6 A Just the Valley papers. I just read what 7 was in -- in the Amador Dispatch. 8 Q So you read the newspaper and you got your 9 information that way; not from Bob Womack? 10 A No. He also told me that he put ads in 11 the paper. He didn't say which papers. 12 Q Do you know what day that ad came out? 13 A No idea. 14 Q Do you know if that ad came out after the 15 tank had already been returned? 16 A Well, he told me that the tank had been 17 returned the day before the ads came out. 18 Q Did Bob tell you someone called regarding 19 the ad out of the paper or someone called, if you know, 20 regarding something he had posted? 21 A He said he had posted fliers at local 22 community restaurants, grocery stores. 23 Q Did he tell you where? 24 A No. He just said he drove around Jackson 25 posting the reward. 908 1 Q Did he show you the ad? 2 A No. 3 Q Did he tell you how much the reward was 4 for? 5 A $1,000. He did not tell me that. 6 Q Did he tell you who paid for the reward? 7 A Yes. He said he paid a thousand dollars. 8 Q He said he paid a thousand dollars? 9 Cash? Check? 10 A Excuse me. He says he paid a reward. I 11 should not say a thousand. He said he paid a reward. 12 Q Did he say to whom? 13 A He did not. 14 Q Did he say whether it was to himself? 15 A He did not. 16 Q Did he say it was to one of his kids? 17 A He did not. 18 Q Did he say whether it was to someone he 19 knew? 20 A No. 21 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions of 22 Mr. Taylor. 23 Thank you for waiting all afternoon. I 24 know it's not too much fun. 25 THE WITNESS: No problem. 909 1 MR. IREY: We will make a copy of the documents 2 you left today and return the copy to you in the very 3 near future. If you need any of the originals for your 4 escrow closing, please contact Ron Hall at the D.A.'s 5 Office and I will do everything in my power to get the 6 Court to release that document. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 MR. IREY: Okay. Any Member of the Grand Jury? 9 Q Can you read this account into the record 10 again, please. 11 A This one? 12 Q Yeah. 13 A 0148-200-5XX. 14 Q I am going to crease a page in the middle 15 of this. Check Number 3696. Could you read the date, 16 the number and the amount. 17 A 5/4. 0148-200-5XX. $200. Payment. 18 Q Is that the same account? 19 A Mmmm... Yes, it is. 20 Q And when I say "same account" as Grand 21 Jury Exhibit 64? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And that's from Grand Jury Exhibit 63? 24 A Yes. 25 Q At this stage, any Member of the Grand 910 1 Jury can write a question down and I will ask that of 2 you. 3 Did Robert Womack sell this house to 4 punish Larry Womack, if you know? 5 A No. 6 Q Do you know one way or the other? 7 A No. 8 Q Had Larry Womack lived in the Camanche 9 house before Robert Womack sold it? 10 A Yes. 11 Q For how many years, if you know? 12 A Approximately three. Maybe four. 13 Q Did you think a written letter was enough 14 to purchase a home? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Because it was Mr. Robert Womack? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Have you had any other contractual 19 obligations with Mr. Womack in the past? 20 A None. 21 Q About how much profit are you going to 22 make on the sale of the house? 23 A Speculation, 12,000. Maybe 15,000. 24 MR. IREY: Any other questions of the Grand 25 Jury. 911 1 Q Do you have a deed of trust in your name? 2 A On my own personal home, yes. 3 Q Do you have a deed of trust in your name 4 on the Camanche house? 5 A No. 6 Q Is it a solid sale? And did you hire 7 someone to sell your home? 8 A Yes. Escrow was opened on the house right 9 now. 10 And I'm sorry? What was the second 11 question? 12 Q Is it a solid sale? And did you hire 13 someone to sell your own home? 14 A My personal house? Or this house at 35 -- 15 Q It just says "sell your home." I guess 16 you could answer that for both of your homes. 17 A The home I am living in is not for sale. 18 And that house there, I did hire a real estate agent. 19 Q You paying them 6 percent or 7 percent? 20 A Flat rate. 21 Q Of? 22 A $1,000. 1,000 and I think 60. 23 Q Friend of yours? 24 A No. 25 Q How do you find someone, if you can tell 912 1 us, unless it's a secret, to sell your house for 1 2 percent? 3 A Let's see. It was last Friday. I had an 4 appointment with a real estate agent. And she was up 5 here at the escrow office and she -- the appointment was 6 set for 4:00. She didn't show up until 5:17. I left at 7 5:12. 8 When I got home, I called her office. By 9 that time, she had already gone back to her office. And 10 we reset the appointment for Saturday at 3:00. 11 She was sick. She could not make it. Her 12 daughter-in-law appeared instead at 3:00, listed the 13 home. She asked me if I would like to rent it out. I 14 said, I do not prefer to rent homes. She said, Okay. 15 Let me see what I could do. So we verbally agreed that, 16 since it wasn't going to go under a multiple listing, 17 that 3 percent was a sufficient price. 18 On Sunday afternoon, she called and asked 19 if I could build her sister-in-law and brother a home 20 and if I could talk to them about designing a home to 21 build in the Lake Camanche area. Said, Sure. No 22 problem. Well, that was -- excuse me. That was Saturday 23 evening. 24 Sunday, I have a tendency to drive around 25 and look for speculation. And I just happened to pass 913 1 them going the opposite direction. We stopped. She said 2 she was taking her sister-in-law and brother to look at 3 the house. They bought it less than 24 hours later. 4 Q Okay. Have you done any inspections in 5 that home? 6 A Any -- I'm sorry? 7 Q Any inspections in that home you bought 8 from Robert Womack? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you know if Mr. Womack did any 11 disclosures when you bought the house? 12 A None that I am aware of. 13 Q This one is kind of possibly not relevant, 14 but we will ask it. 15 Do you feel you have protected yourself? 16 A I'm sorry? 17 Q Do you feel you have protected yourself in 18 the way you purchased the home? 19 A Yes. 20 MR. IREY: Any other questions of any of the 21 Grand Jurors? 22 THE FOREPERSON: Mary Craft has important 23 documents for you. She is leaving. 24 MR. IREY: Any other questions for Mr. Taylor. 25 Okay. The Foreman has an admonition for 914 1 you. 2 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 3 to any person except as directed by the Court what 4 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 5 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 6 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 7 appearance before the Grand Jury. 8 This admonition continues unless and until 9 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury's 10 proceeding is made public. Violation of this admonition 11 is punishable as contempt of Court. 12 This does not prevent you from discussing 13 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 14 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 15 Grand Jury. 16 Get you to date and sign that I read you 17 the admonition. 18 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you very much. 19 MR. IREY: Thank you very much, Mr. Taylor. 20 Again, on the escrow documents, let us know, because -- 21 THE WITNESS: No problem. 22 MR. IREY: Figure out a way to get those to you. 23 THE WITNESS: It should close Friday. 24 MR. IREY: This way out. 25 You are looking for something? 915 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I am. There was a manila 2 envelope. 3 MR. IREY: We are going to make a copy of 4 everything you gave us. We don't have any of this 5 information. And then we will give it back to you. Show 6 me the specific receipts. 7 THE WITNESS: There it is. Okay. I wanted to 8 make sure... 9 MR. IREY: This has been marked Grand Jury 10 Exhibit No. 65. 11 Q This is a complete copy of the file you 12 have on the house? 13 A Yes. 14 MR. IREY: Same admonition? 15 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 16 MR. IREY: There is one more witness out there, 17 but he is probably a 20-minute witness. He can come 18 back. I have no qualms, but it's up to the Members of 19 the Grand Jury. He might be as short as ten minutes. 20 GRAND JUROR: Let's go for it. 21 THE FOREPERSON: We are gutsy. 22 MR. IREY: Randy Cunha. 23 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Cunha, if you could remain 24 standing and raise your right hand, please. 25 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 916 1 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 2 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 3 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 4 THE WITNESS: I do. 5 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated. 6 7 (TIME NOTED: 5:00 P.M.) 8 ---oOo--- 9 RANDY CUNHA 10 Called as a witness herein by the People, 11 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 12 and testified as follows: 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. IREY: 15 Q Sir, how do you pronounce your last name? 16 A Cunha. 17 Q Could you spell your last name for the 18 court reporter and Members of the Grand Jury. 19 A C-U-N-H-A. 20 Q Mr. Cunha -- I apologize. You have told 21 some people you saw the truck that had the tank on it. 22 You told other people you never saw the truck. What is 23 the truth? 24 A I saw 'em take the debris away in the 25 truck. I never saw the tanks. 917 1 Q So you were misquoted? 2 A I told Ron Hall that I believe the tanks 3 were still in the ground. I never saw 'em take 'em out. 4 Q Whose trucks were hauling the debris? 5 A Mark Sherrill's. 6 Q Okay. And what time did you work on May 7 2nd, 1998? 8 A Saturday? Is that a Saturday? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A I worked from 9:00 to 5:30. 11 Q Okay. And at 5:30, what did you do? 12 A Went home. 13 Q So you didn't wait around for the tank to 14 come out ten minutes later? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you go across the street? 17 A No. 18 Q Any time that day did you go across the 19 street? 20 A No. 21 Q Why did you tell the investigator that you 22 were reluctant to testify today? 23 A Because I know people that are involved in 24 it. 25 Q So is the truth ever a problem for you? 918 1 A No. 2 Q So why were you reluctant to testify? 3 A I didn't want to make anybody mad, I 4 guess. 5 Q Why would anybody be mad if you told the 6 truth? 7 A Because I didn't know what was going on. 8 Q Have you talked to Mark Sherrill about the 9 tank coming out of the ground? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q What did Mark say happened? 12 A Mark told me, Just tell what you saw. 13 Q When did you talk to Mark about your 14 testimony? 15 A When did I? 16 Q Yeah. 17 A A couple weeks ago, I guess. 18 Q After you received your subpoena? 19 A Yeah, I think so. 20 Q 1-800 I need to talk to you, Mark 21 Sherrill? Or what happened? 22 A No. I just ran into him. 23 Q And you ran into him, said, Hey, Mark, I 24 have a subpoena. What should I tell 'em? 25 And he said, Just tell 'em what happened. 919 1 A Yeah. 2 Q Did he say, Well, what did you see? 3 A No. 4 Q He just said, Tell 'em what happened? 5 A Mm-hmm. 6 Q Who else was with you when you talked to 7 Mark Sherrill? 8 A Just me and him. 9 Q So you just ran into him where? 10 A Actually, came in where I worked and 11 bought a pair of shoes from me. 12 Q I heard something goofy. A lot of people 13 who pulled that underground storage tank got pretty good 14 discounts from your boss. 15 What's that about? 16 A Have to ask him. 17 Q Did they get discounts? 18 A No idea. 19 Q Did Mark get a discount? 20 A No. 21 Q He came into the store, you said, Mark, by 22 the way, I got a subpoena. Is that kind of how it went? 23 A Yeah. 24 Q Before that, had you talked to anybody 25 other than people you work with regarding underground 920 1 storage tank removal? 2 A That was it, I think. 3 Q Take 30 seconds and think about it. All 4 the Grand Jurors wanted to wait for your testimony. 5 So who else did you talk to? Investigator 6 Walshaw? 7 A Yeah, him. 8 Q What if he comes in and testifies that you 9 told him that you saw the tank come out of the hole? 10 A I didn't see -- 11 Q Is that bad memory? 12 A I didn't see it come out. I told Ron 13 Hall. He was the first one that talked to me. I said I 14 believe the tanks are still in the ground. 15 Q And Walshaw came down the next day because 16 it appeared you were being reluctant in your description 17 of the events. Is that true? I can't ask you that. It 18 calls for your opinion of Ron Hall. Withdraw. 19 Right after Mr. Ron Hall talked to you, 20 didn't he send somebody down that knew you, Jim Walshaw? 21 A I believe so. 22 Q And Jim talked to you? 23 A I believe so. 24 Q And you told Jim what? 25 A Basically what I told Ron, I guess, I 921 1 think. I can't remember that far back. 2 Q Okay. Did you tell Ron the truth? 3 A Yeah. 4 Q Did you tell Jim the truth? 5 A Yeah. 6 Q So if Ron testifies you told him you 7 didn't know what happened and Jim testifies that you told 8 him the tank went on a truck that was Sherrill's, which 9 story is closer to the truth? 10 A That I didn't see 'em take the tanks out. 11 Q You didn't see what truck the tanks went 12 on? 13 A Nope. I saw the debris, the building, 14 what trucks they went in. 15 Q Someone was telling me recently that you 16 were going to try to get out of your subpoena. Why is 17 that? 18 A I never said that. 19 Q To anybody? 20 A I don't recall, no. 21 Q How about you try and talk Mr. Swenson 22 into trying to get you out of your subpoena? 23 A Nope. Because actually, Mr. Swenson 24 wasn't around when I got the subpoena. He was in Montana 25 at the time. 922 1 Q That wasn't my question. 2 A Oh. 3 Q Did you try to get your boss to get you 4 out of the subpoena? 5 A No, I didn't. 6 Q Did you try to get anybody to get you out 7 of the subpoena? 8 A Nope. 9 Q Okay. You didn't want to testify because 10 you have to tell the truth? 11 A No. That's not the reason I didn't want 12 to testify, no. 13 Q Why didn't you want to testify? 14 A Because I knew some of the people in it 15 and I didn't want to make them mad at me. 16 Q You say some of the people besides Mark 17 Sherrill. Who else did you know? 18 A That's basically who I know. 19 Q When you say some of the people, you mean 20 Mark Sherrill? 21 A Yeah. 22 Q You know anybody else that was there? 23 A I knew the guy that was working for Mark. 24 Q Nick Hernandez? 25 A Mm-hmm. 923 1 Q How do you know Nick? 2 A I guess his parents own a restaurant I go 3 to. 4 Q Or used to? 5 A Used to, yeah. 6 Q Okay. So when the trucks were leaving 7 that day with the debris in them, were they turning right 8 or left? 9 A They were turning left, I believe. 10 Q Okay. And when the tank came out of the 11 ground at a quarter to 6:00, you weren't around? 12 A Nope. 13 Q Lock the door, throw the money in the 14 safe, and go somewhere? 15 A Yep. 16 Q You didn't stop and say, Hey, Mark, even 17 though he is one of your friends? 18 A Nope. 19 Q Was Mark still there? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Was Nick still there? 22 A I don't recall. 23 Q Had you been watching the removal -- I 24 mean, the demolition all day? 25 A Nope. 924 1 Q What had you been doing all day? Working? 2 A Working. 3 Q Did you notice who took pictures? 4 A Mmmm... I believe the lady Womack's wife, 5 I believe. 6 Q Video? 7 A Yeah. 8 Q Was she still there when you left? 9 A I don't think so, no. 10 Q Was the Lincoln Navigator still there 11 when you left? 12 A I wasn't paying attention. 13 Q Okay. So have you talked to anybody 14 besides Mark Sherrill two weeks ago about the underground 15 storage tank pull? 16 A What I have read in the newspaper and 17 stuff, people have asked me, you know. 18 Q Did Sherrill ask you stuff? 19 A No. 20 Q Did Sherrill say, What did you see? 21 A No. 22 Q Did Hernandez say, What did you see? 23 A I haven't spoken to him about it. 24 Q Womack? 25 A No. 925 1 Q Wolin? 2 A No. 3 Q Billy Wolin came in and bought shoes or 4 something from you? 5 A I really don't know who he is. 6 Q Okay. So you don't have any specific 7 information other than you were off at 5:30 and went 8 home? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q So Mr. Walshaw was mistaken when you told 11 him that you saw the tanks come out of the ground and 12 they were on Sherrill's truck? 13 A I -- I told first person and I told him I 14 thought the tanks were still in the ground. I thought 15 they buried them. 16 Q Why would you think that? Why did you 17 think that? 18 A Because when I was looking at it, they 19 weren't taking any tanks out. 20 Q There was a big hole in the ground. 21 A I couldn't tell from where I was at. 22 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of the 23 this witness. If any Member of the Grand Jury has any 24 questions -- I didn't get a chance to brief you. 25 Basically, after I am done, any one of the 926 1 19 Grand Jurors can ask a question. 2 Q Other than Mark Sherrill, who else did 3 you know at the demolition site? 4 A Mmmm... Nick Hernandez. That was about 5 it. 6 Q If you tell the truth, what would be the 7 consequences of being honest? 8 A Repeat that. 9 Q If you tell the truth to the Grand Jury, 10 what would be the consequences of being honest? 11 A Nothing. 12 Q And you were honest today? 13 A Yep. 14 Q And you were honest with Ron Hall the 15 first time he interviewed you? 16 A Uh-huh. 17 Q And you were honest with Jim Walshaw when 18 he interviewed you? 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q Is that yes to both the last two 21 questions? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q But you didn't try to get out of the 24 subpoena? 25 A No. 927 1 Q Okay. 2 A I had no reason to. 3 MR. IREY: Any others questions of the Grand 4 Jurors? 5 At this time, the Grand Jury Foreman has 6 an admonition for you. 7 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 8 to any person except as directed by the Court what 9 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 10 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 11 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 12 appearance before the Grand Jury. 13 This admonition continues unless and until 14 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 15 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 16 punishable as contempt of court. 17 This does not prevent you from discussing 18 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 19 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 20 Grand Jury. 21 I need you to please sign and date this 22 admonition I just read to you. 23 Thank you very much. You are free to 24 go. 25 Okay. The Grand Jurors are admonished 928 1 they are not to form or express any opinions about this 2 case or discuss it amongst themselves until the Grand 3 Jury receives the case for deliberation. 4 In addition, no inspection of evidence 5 should be conducted without the permission of the 6 Foreperson and on the advice of the prosecuting 7 attorney. 8 A violation of this rule could result in a 9 charge of contempt against the Grand Juror who would 10 investigated or viewed any matters with regard to this 11 case without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 12 Thank you. We stand in recess until 9:30 13 a.m. Tuesday morning. 14 ---oOo--- 15 (Whereupon, pages 929 - 930 were reported and transcribed, but are under separate 16 confidential cover.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 931 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 4 5 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) 6 ) ss. 7 COUNTY OF TUOLUMNE ) 8 9 10 11 I, JAN L. BENEDETTI, CSR, hereby certify that I 12 was duly appointed and qualified to take the foregoing 13 matter; 14 That acting as such reporter, I took down in 15 stenotype notes the testimony given and proceedings 16 had; 17 That I thereafter transcribed said shorthand 18 notes into typewritten longhand, the above and 19 foregoing pages being a full, true and correct 20 transcription of the testimony given and proceedings 21 had. 22 23 24 25 932 1 2 _____________________________ 3 JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25