IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF AMADOR ---oOo--- The People of the State of California) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) No. 98-0767 ) ROBERT ROLAND WOMACK, DAVID STERLING ) MASON III and MARK SHERRILL, ) Defendants. ) _____________________________________) PROCEEDINGS HELD BEFORE THE GRAND JURY NOVEMBER 13, 1998 VOLUME II APPEARANCES: For the People: DAVID J. IREY Deputy District Attorney Reported by: JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG, CSR No. 4643 292 1 ---oOo--- 2 WITNESS INDEX Page 3 GEORGE RYAN Examination by Mr. Irey 296 4 435 5 MARY NELL BRYANT Examination by Mr. Irey 329 6 GARY CLARK 7 Examination by Mr. Irey 348 8 THORTON CONSOLO Examination by Mr. Irey 382 9 LARRY WHITE 10 Examination by Mr. Irey 404 11 GARY ROUSE Examination by Mr. Irey 454 12 TINA WOLIN 13 Examination by Mr. Irey 475 14 E. MICHAEL QUINN Examination by Mr. Irey 492 15 WILLIAM A. WOLIN 16 Examination by Mr. Irey 508 548 17 DAMION WOLIN 18 Examination by Mr. Irey 539 19 ---oOo--- 20 21 22 23 24 25 293 1 E X H I B I T S 2 Exhibit No. Description Ref. 3 18 George Ryan's File 301 4 19 Photograph 333 5 20 Photograph 333 6 21 Photograph 337 7 22 Photograph 338 8 23 Photograph 338 9 24 Photograph 343 10 25 Photograph 391 11 26 Building Permit File 461 12 27 Building Permit File 416 13 28 Building Department Street File 420 14 29 Dept. Public Works Building Permit 471 15 30 Copy of a Check 478 16 31 Original Check 484 17 32 Underground Tank Storage Removal 502 Permit 18 33 Photograph 556 19 ---oOo--- 20 21 22 23 24 25 294 1 JACKSON, CALIF., FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 1998, 9:30 A.M. 2 BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF AMADOR COUNTY 3 ---oOo--- 4 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 5 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 6 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) Present. 7 (Redacted.) 8 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 9 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 10 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 11 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 12 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Here. 13 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 14 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 15 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 16 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXXXX: Present. 17 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 18 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 19 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 20 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Present. 21 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 22 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 23 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 24 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Present. 25 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 295 1 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 2 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 3 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 4 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 5 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 6 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 7 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 8 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 9 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Present. 10 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 11 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 12 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 13 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 14 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 15 THE FOREPERSON: Present. 16 I notice we are more spread out. Probably 17 be more comfortable back there. As long as everybody can 18 can hear? 19 GRAND JUROR: What? 20 THE FOREPERSON: Fortunately, we have had some 21 loud witnesses, so -- or, at least, not loud; ones you 22 can hear, so... 23 Then, if there is nothing else, Dave, you 24 can go ahead. 25 MR. IREY: First witness today is George Ryan. 296 1 THE FOREPERSON: Good morning. Remain standing 2 and raise your right hand. 3 Do you solemnly swear that the evidence 4 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 5 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 6 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 7 THE WITNESS: I do. 8 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 9 10 (TIME NOTED: 9:33 A.M.) 11 ---oOo--- 12 GEORGE RYAN 13 Called as a witness herein by the People, 14 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 15 and testified as follows: 16 EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. IREY: 18 Q Good morning, Mr. Ryan. 19 A Good morning. 20 Q I kind of walk around and try to get the 21 exhibits going while we are doing this. 22 Could you spell your last name for the 23 court reporter, please. 24 A R-Y-A-N. 25 Q And could you give the Members of the Jury 297 1 a little bit of your background in Amador County. 2 A Yes. I'm fifth generation, born and 3 raised here. I have -- we have managed Western Land 4 Title Company. And I am also a private attorney and have 5 a law practice. 6 Q And you have been an attorney in Amador 7 County for how many years? 8 A About 21. 9 Q And you also own Western Land Title? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Is this your first time testifying? 12 A Yes. 13 Q I have had to do it once. It's not that 14 much fun. 15 Mr. Ryan, do you know Mr. David Mason? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And some people call him David Senior? 18 A Mm-hmm, yes. 19 Q David the III, David Mason. David 20 Sterling Mason, III is his full name; do you know? 21 A Yes, I do know. That is Mr. Mason's name. 22 Q Do you know Robert Womack? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Do you know Roland Womack? 25 A Yes. 298 1 Q Do you know Nadine Womack? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you know June Womack? 4 A Yes. 5 Q You were just chatting with Luke Womack. 6 Do you know him? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Larry Womack? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Any other Womacks? 11 A Uh, I am not sure. I am not sure if they 12 have another son or not. I know those two and they may 13 have another son. I am not sure. 14 Q Do you know Kimberly Moore? 15 A Mmmm... I don't think I have ever met 16 her. 17 Q Okay. You have acted in the past both as 18 Mr. Womack's attorney and as dealings through your 19 mortgage company, correct? 20 A Title company, yes. 21 Q Title company. 22 And some of your answers today are going 23 to be answers that you have to give as previously being 24 Mr. Womack's attorney? 25 A Okay, yes. 299 1 Q And the rest of it, regarding Western Land 2 Title, will be questions as wearing the hat of Western 3 Land Title. 4 You own the business? 5 A We are purchasing it from my father, in 6 the process of purchasing it. 7 Q Okay. Your father was a judge in this 8 county? 9 A Yes. 10 Q When? 11 A '76. And he served two and a half terms, 12 I believe. He started in '76. He served two and a half 13 terms, eight-year terms. 14 Q So while you were an attorney up here, he 15 was -- 16 A Part of the time, yes. Actually, the 17 whole time. 18 Q Municipal Court Judge? 19 A No. He was Superior Court Judge. 20 Q He bought Western Title -- 21 A He bought Western Land Title in -- I 22 believe it was 1952, '53. 23 Q Okay. Mr. Ryan, did you bring in files 24 today? 25 A Yes. I was requested to bring the escrow 300 1 file on the transaction with Mr. Womack and Mister -- I 2 mean, with Roland Womack and Mr. Mason. 3 Q For what address? 4 A I would have to look at the file. The 5 service station. 6 MR. IREY: I will have it marked and then I 7 will.... 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9 Q BY MR. IREY: Prior to coming to court 10 today, you came to the District Attorney's Office? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q And you brought this file for the first 13 time? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And we had maybe three to five minutes to 16 just peek in to see? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And inside the file, you said you checked 19 through it to determine if there was any or were any 20 documents that were attorney-client privileged? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you are comfortable that the file that 23 you brought the original of today doesn't have any 24 attorney-client privileged -- 25 A I don't believe so. 301 1 Q Okay. Then we made a copy between the 2 time you were at the District Attorney's Office and 3 showed up to court, correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q From the copy of the file, can you 6 determine what address the gas station was? 7 A 505 Sutter Street. 8 Q Mr. Ryan, I am going to hand you the 9 original now. The top left-hand corner is marked Grand 10 Jury exhibit. 11 Can you see the number on that? 12 A Yeah. 18. 13 Q The front page of this manila file folder 14 has some writing on it, correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q The writing in the top right corner of the 17 first page -- in blue ink, it says, Opening Date. What 18 essentially is that date? 19 A That would be the date that the escrow 20 officer started the file. 21 Q Okay. Maybe before we get into the actual 22 escrow on this property, why don't we go to the questions 23 that you might not feel comfortable answering, if that's 24 okay. 25 A Please. Sure. 302 1 Q You have been Mr. Womack's attorney off 2 and on numerous contracts over the years? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And your relationship with Mr. Womack was 5 an attorney-client relationship, correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And if I ask you any questions regarding 8 that attorney-client relationship, you are not going to 9 waive the attorney-client relationship, correct? 10 A I have been instructed not to waive it. 11 Q And Mr. Womack is the one that actually 12 holds the privilege; is that correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q So Mr. Womack would have to waive that 15 privilege? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And Mr. Womack -- at this time, you have 18 been informed by someone -- withdraw that question. 19 At this time, you are not prepared to 20 waive that attorney-client privilege? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Most or all of your -- I will rephrase 23 that. 24 All of your dealings regarding KRL 25 Partnership with Mr. Womack, it is your belief today -- 303 1 is it your belief today that they are protected by 2 attorney-client privilege? 3 A Yes, it is. 4 Q So if I ask you any questions regarding 5 KRL Partnership today, your standard response would be? 6 A I would have to invoke the attorney-client 7 privilege. 8 Q So instead of me asking twenty or thirty 9 questions, if it's okay with you, we will just determine 10 at this point that the KRL questions related to contracts 11 won't be asked. 12 A Thank you. 13 Q But the KRL questions related to the 14 purchase of the property at 505 you are comfortable 15 answering, as long as they are not dealing with 16 attorney-client privilege? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Because KRL attempted to purchase this 19 property. Is that your understanding? 20 A They initially were to be the purchaser. 21 Q Okay. So escrow opened on 4/6/98? 22 A Correct. 23 Q That would be about four weeks before 24 5/2/98. Correct? 25 A Yes. 304 1 Q And when an escrow is opened in your 2 office, it gets a file each time? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And prior to an escrow being opened, do 5 you actually have a client at that point? 6 A Are you speaking of me? Does the title 7 company have a client? 8 Q Does the title company? 9 A The title company does not have a client 10 until the escrow is opened. 11 Q So someone comes in and basically says, I 12 would like to purchase a property. 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Could you explain that. I don't buy and 15 sell land. 16 A Sure. Someone would come in. If it's 17 individuals, either one of the individuals or, many 18 times, a real estate broker will come in and say, We want 19 to purchase this piece of property. And then the escrow 20 officer or the person who opens the order takes the 21 information as to where the property is, who is the 22 seller, who is the buyer, purchase price, any other 23 information that is relevant to the sale. 24 And then the property -- then the order 25 goes back to the title department to start a title 305 1 search. A title company prepares title -- policies, 2 title reports and does escrows. 3 An escrow is a situation where the escrow 4 officer will take in the money, sales purchase price, 5 will review the title report and see what outstanding 6 liens need to be paid off. They will get demands from 7 the people who are owed the money to see what it needs to 8 clear those off. 9 The escrow will get documents signed 10 necessary to transfer the property. And when the 11 documents are signed and when they have sufficient money 12 in file to close the escrow, then they will take it back 13 to the title department and say, We are going to close 14 this. Go up and record it. 15 And then the deed is then recorded, which 16 transfers the title. And shortly thereafter, the title 17 policy is issued. The title policy is a -- is an 18 insurance normally for the buyer so, when they buy the 19 property, they are assured there are only certain things 20 of record -- I mean of record in the Recorder's Office 21 that affect this property. 22 So if you were going to buy a piece of 23 property, you would want to know who has the right to 24 drive across it, who has got -- if somebody has a pole 25 line on it, things of that nature. Initially, the title 306 1 report, the preliminary title report, will give that 2 information. And then the potential buyer uses that as 3 part of their decision whether or not to continue to 4 purchase the property. 5 Q Okay. And so someone actually came in and 6 opened an escrow on 4/6/98? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Is there any way inside the file you can 9 determine who came in on 4/6/98? 10 The very, very back on the right-hand 11 side, it -- 12 A Oh, yes. 13 Q -- appears to me there is a document 14 called an opening order sheet. What is that? 15 A An opening order sheet, that's what -- 16 this is the original intake. 17 And as I said, in this case, it looks like 18 the -- the order desk opened the order, prepared the 19 folder, the manila folder, and took some preliminary 20 information and then gave that to the escrow officer and 21 also gave it to the title department and also to the 22 escrow officer. 23 Q Okay. So Order No. 032564 matches the 24 same number on the front of the file; is that -- 25 A That's correct. 307 1 Q So this is File 32564? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Does someone have to have an agreement in 4 principle before they come in and open a file? 5 A No. 6 Q So it's not as if Mr. Womack and Mr. Mason 7 had reached an agreement on the purchase price at this 8 point, if you know? 9 A I honestly don't know. But no, they do 10 not have to. 11 Part of the negotiation when you are 12 purchasing property would be to see what the property is 13 encumbered by. And so they may or may not have a 14 contract coming in. 15 Q Okay. And the applicant in this 16 transaction was? 17 A The applicant initially was the 18 partnership, KRL Partnership. 19 Q And the address? 20 A xxxxx Ridge Road, Sutter Creek. 21 Q Do you know where that address -- do you 22 know who lives at that address? 23 A I believe that the partnership address is 24 there and I believe that Mr. Womack lives there at the 25 same site. 308 1 Q Mr. Robert Womack? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And then listed under buyer is also KRL 4 Partnership; is that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Same address? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And the owner, the seller/owner is listed 9 as whom? 10 A Dave Mason, III, and Diane, which I assume 11 is Mr. Mason's wife. 12 Q Do you know that Diane is his wife? 13 A I would -- I honestly can't remember her 14 name, but I think that's why it's there like that. 15 Q Have you ever heard his wife referred to 16 as Miriam before, if you know? 17 A I -- I don't know. It seems to me that 18 Dave's wife goes -- what she goes by is different than 19 her given name, but I honestly don't know. 20 Q And then the property description is what? 21 A 505 Sutter Street. 22 And then we show an Assessor's parcel 23 number, which would also help us identify it. 24 Q It's pretty standard. That information 25 would have come in; and you would have required that to 309 1 open an escrow? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. Then the sales price is listed? 4 A The sales price there in pencil is 5 $60,000. 6 Q With a deposit? 7 A 5,000. 8 Q Would that have been made to -- given to 9 Western Title at that time? 10 A I would -- it probably was not. And I 11 would say the reason it was not, if you will notice that 12 this is in pencil and the rest is in pen. So I am 13 assuming -- many times, you will take these in and not 14 know that information. Then they will go back and fill 15 it in later. 16 I would assume, because it's in pencil, 17 that it wasn't -- didn't have all the information at the 18 same time. 19 Q Somewhere in this file, will there be 20 information related to whether or not there was an escrow 21 deposit and whether or not there was -- the sale was paid 22 off? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Take just a second. I am going to try to 25 go through sheets as quickly as possible, but I want to 310 1 be thorough for the Members of the Grand Jury. 2 A If I could explain? 3 Q Sure. 4 A The $5,000 initial deposit doesn't 5 necessarily mean they brought that in at the time. That 6 means that that's what they will bring in or that's what 7 we expect them to bring in. 8 Q Okay. 9 A So that's -- that's part of the initial 10 terms. 11 Q Then down at the bottom when it talks 12 about how fees are supposed to be paid, does B stand for 13 buyer? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. The next page is April 14th letter 16 from a Mr. or Ms. Fortner? 17 A That's Mr. Fortner. 18 Q And he works for you? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. And that was sent to KRL 21 Partnership? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q Then the next page, April 17th letter, 24 sent to Dave and Diane Mason? 25 A Correct. 311 1 Q By Yvonne Adrian? 2 A Yes. 3 Q You send this stuff by fax or by mail 4 normally? Or can you tell by looking at the file? 5 A Normally, we would send it by mail. If -- 6 there are times it goes by fax, then followed up by 7 mail. Normally, it's by mail. 8 Q Part of what drove this sale had to do 9 with a debt owed by Mr. Mason. Is that your 10 understanding? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q And part of your job as the title company 13 was to facilitate the payment of that loan? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And you were actually dealing with Mr. 16 Mason's bank at some point? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And that's you, yourself personally? Or 19 some part of your staff? 20 A I -- normally, I do not deal with the 21 banks. On this particular thing, because Mr. Mason had a 22 note that needed to be paid off on a certain period of 23 time, when this came in, it was getting close to that 24 time. I did myself speak to -- by looking at the file, I 25 think it was Mr. Townsend from -- he was back East 312 1 someplace, but he was with the bank. 2 And I did speak to him on a couple of 3 occasions to see if there was any possibility that he 4 would extend the time to pay the note, to pay the 5 obligation. 6 Q And he told you? 7 A No. There was a deadline. And I honestly 8 don't remember the particular date. But there was a 9 deadline beyond which, despite being asked, that he would 10 not extend payment. 11 Q And if the note wasn't paid, what would 12 have happened to Mr. Mason's property, is your 13 understanding? 14 A My understanding, they had a judgment. 15 They would be executing on the judgment. And the way 16 that works is, you go to court and essentially take the 17 property or have it sold to pay the obligation. 18 Q And it was more than one property; is that 19 your understanding? 20 A My understanding is, the -- and I can 21 look, but I think it was just a general judgment. A 22 general judgment, when filed, attaches to all real 23 property owned by the person in the county in which the 24 judgment is filed. 25 Q Including his house? 313 1 A Yes. 2 Q And any bulk plant or any gas station he 3 still owned the dirt? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Would it be a general lien against all 6 properties owned by David Mason or David Mason Trust? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And you said somewhere in this file, there 9 is a document that indicates that? 10 A Would reflect that. 11 Q That would reflect that? 12 A Yes. If you will -- this document, the 13 preliminary title report. 14 Q Okay. It's called a Preliminary Title 15 Report, and it indicates the information you just 16 described? 17 A Yes. On Exception No. 10. 18 Q Okay. If you could read that into the 19 record, please. 20 A Exception No. 10? 21 Q Yeah, if it's not too long. 22 A It goes for a couple -- it goes for... 23 Q We don't need you to read it in. But it 24 is in your original file that's been marked as Grand Jury 25 Exhibit 18, is it? 314 1 A Yes. 2 And the essence of it is that there is an 3 abstract of judgment in an amount of 317,377.86. 4 Q Okay. 5 A That was recorded in 1996. 6 Q It was recorded on several properties? 7 A Well, when you record a general judgment, 8 it automatically attaches to anything a person owns. 9 Q In that specific county? 10 A In that county. 11 Q So you go to the County Recorder's Office? 12 A And it will be listed. 13 Q And it will be listed. 14 That runs with every single piece of 15 property Mr. Mason owned or had his name on? 16 A And the creditor would have the ability, 17 if they wanted to record it in any other county in the 18 state, if they felt it was worthwhile if they thought he 19 had property there also. 20 Q And Mr. Mason, it was your understanding, 21 had been making some payments? 22 A That's my understanding, yes. 23 Q At some point, he owed "x" amount of 24 dollars? 25 A That's correct. 315 1 Q Is there a document in this file that 2 indicates what the payoff was at the time that this 3 escrow opened in early April '98? 4 A If I looked, I could -- I could find 5 that. However, if you will look at the disbursement 6 summary, which is on the left-hand side of the file. 7 Q Okay. 8 A You will see the last line there, Ocean 9 Federal Bank FSB, 5/29/98, wired $80,000. That tells me 10 what was needed to pay off that note was $80,000. 11 Q That could have been a negotiated number 12 or exact number? 13 A Yes. What we do as a title company is to 14 find out from a creditor how much they are owed. This is 15 what they said they were owed, and so that's what was 16 wired as a result of this escrow. 17 Q So you didn't negotiate the $80,000 18 number? 19 A No. 20 Q If the $80,000 number was a portion of a 21 total debt, you don't have specific knowledge in this 22 file? 23 A No. There wouldn't be specific knowledge 24 in the file. However, as a result of this, the judgment 25 is -- was released of record. So all we were concerned 316 1 about as a title company is to make sure the judgment is 2 no longer of record, because then that removes it from 3 being a lien on anybody's property in this county. 4 Q Clears up the title? 5 A So what they said they would need to 6 release the judgment was $80,000. 7 Q So you wire $80,000 and they wire some 8 type of release of judgment back to you? 9 A Yes, yes. 10 Q And is that in the file? 11 A In response to your looking through here 12 in response to your earlier question, there is a letter 13 received from Ocean Bank April 24, '98, on the left-hand 14 side, to Yvonne Adrian, who was the escrow officer at the 15 time with our company. 16 Q Okay. 17 A It says: Please be advised as agreed to 18 accept $80,000 in full and final settlement of referenced 19 judgment given Ocean's receipt of said funds 5:00 p.m. 20 April 29, 1998. Gave wires. 21 Q 3009172 loan number? 22 A Yes. 23 Q David Mason, III, individually? 24 A It is -- the defendant in the action, 25 going back to the title report, was David S. Mason, III 317 1 individually as guarantor and as trustee of Mason Family 2 Trust, revokable trust, 1997 or 1977, excuse me. 3 Q And it also lists Toms Sierra Company on 4 the letter April 24th, 1998. Do you see that? 5 A Yes. 6 Q So then the page closer to the top of the 7 stack is a letter to the Bank of Amador from someone -- 8 from yourself and Chris Lynn. That said, Please wire the 9 $80,000? 10 A Yes. 11 Q But I don't see a date on that letter. 12 Does your copy show that there was a date? 13 A No, I don't. I don't see a date on that 14 letter. 15 Q Okay. 16 A On the disbursement sheet on front will 17 say it was wired on May 29th. 18 Q May 29th? 19 A 5/29/98 is what it's showing here. 20 Q Do you -- 21 A Maybe that's not right. That's what's 22 showing on this sheet. 23 Q Okay. Now, the reason you say maybe 24 that's not right -- and I also hesitated when I asked. 25 Do you remember it being a late April transaction? 318 1 A I thought it was in April, yes. 2 Q On the very first page the disbursement 3 summary, it indicates that you received money on 5/1/98 4 and 5/28/98. 5 A That's right. 6 Q Then the third one says 5/8/98. 7 A Well, I would have to say that the -- 8 there is a mistake there. 9 Q Okay. Because Mr. Townsend's letter was 10 dated April 24th, 1998? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And he had to have the money by April 13 29th, 1998? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And that's when you remember sending him 16 the money? 17 A Yes. I am assuming that these dates are 18 off. 19 Q And there's a way for you to go back and 20 check, just based -- because you are depositing fairly 21 large chunks of money into an account. 22 A Yes, mm-hmm. 23 Q So there would be a way to check, if 24 necessary. I don't know if the Grand Jury is going to 25 need that. We will ask you to look into that. Maybe you 319 1 can get back to Mr. Hall. 2 For instance, deposit 5/28/98, 55,000. 3 There would be a way to check to see if that was really 4 4/28? 5 A Yes. 6 Q So $80,000 had to go to release these 7 liens? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q You sent $80,000 to Ocean Bank via Bank of 10 Amador? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q And where it says our account, you 13 actually have $80,000 sitting in Western Land Title 14 Company, Inc.'s account? 15 A Escrow account, yes. 16 Q And then Bank of Amador is able to wire 17 that back East? 18 A That's correct. The reason it's wired is 19 because wired funds are good funds immediately. And you 20 will -- you will wire if there is a time problem. 21 If we had sent them a check, it takes a 22 while for a check to get there and it takes a while for a 23 check to clear. 24 Q Okay. Then somewhere in here, did you 25 receive back from Western Title the release of the lien? 320 1 Or did they have someone out in California take care of 2 that for them, if you can tell? 3 A I don't see that here. 4 Q If you could make a mental note of that 5 and maybe can you explain that to -- 6 A I think I -- I think I -- I think I know. 7 If I can? 8 Q Sure. 9 A Apparently, if you will look at No. 7 in 10 the title report, it refers to a deed of trust, a large 11 deed of trust. It's my recollection that the judgment 12 resulted from that deed of trust. And that's why Mr. 13 Mason is shown as a guarantor. 14 If you will look at the front page of the 15 whole file, the white sheet there on the front, it says 16 1RTC. 17 Q Okay. 18 A 1 is the number one. RTC is Recon To 19 Come, Reconveyance To Come. 20 Q Okay. 21 A It's not unusual in dealing with a 22 financial institution, once you have signed instructions 23 and everybody signed the instructions and they told you 24 the amount and you have agreed to that, that you go ahead 25 and close the transaction with a recon to come, 321 1 reconveyance to come. 2 So they would be sending that at a later 3 date to clear this off the title. 4 Q Do they send that to the County Recorder 5 and title company? 6 A Normally, they would send to it the title 7 company to be recorded. 8 Q And at this time? 9 A I would have to look further. I don't see 10 it here. 11 The reason -- the reason that we mark the 12 front of the files in that manner is because sometimes it 13 takes them a while to do it. And so these files then are 14 easily identified and put in a place so people can 15 continually check and make sure they follow up and make 16 sure they do the reconveyance. 17 Q I notice further down on the left-hand 18 side is a check for $5,000 or a copy of a check. 19 A Yes. 20 Q From Roland E. Womack, D.D.S. Do you see 21 that page? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And the check is Check No. 3958? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And the signature is Mrs. R. Womack? 322 1 A Yes. 2 Q It's made out to your business, Western 3 Land Title? 4 A Yes. 5 Q But it's made on the dentist's account? 6 A Yes. 7 Q It's dated 5/1/98? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And above that is a deposit slip, copy 10 of? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Is that actually a receipt? How does that 13 work? Escrow cash receipt? 14 A This is a cash receipt that, when we take 15 in money at the title company, we issue a receipt. We 16 keep a copy in our file and give a copy to whoever 17 brought the money in. 18 Q And the receipt -- originally, it looks 19 like it's KRL, but it's crossed out? 20 A Well, what happened was, initially, the 21 buyer was to be KRL. And then, as the process went 22 along, Roland Womack -- Roland E. Womack and his wife 23 decided they were going to buy the property as 24 individuals. So when they came in with the money, they 25 brought the money in themselves. 323 1 Q Okay. And so E. Ryan -- is that your 2 wife? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Evelyn? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And so her signature, do you recognize 7 that signature at the bottom? 8 A Yes. 9 Q So she originally writes KRL on the 10 receipt, and then crosses it out. Is that what it 11 appears? 12 A That's what it appears, yes. 13 Q Then writes in Roland E. Womack? 14 A Yes. 15 Q That's dated 5/1/98? 16 A Yes. 17 Q That's after you -- you wired the money 18 back East. 19 Did you front the Womacks some money for a 20 couple of days? 21 A No, sir. I would have to check the dates. 22 No. 23 Q That's okay. I mean -- 24 A No. 25 Q We didn't have time to go over this file. 324 1 We didn't have time to prepare, correct? 2 A No. We would not be able to do that. 3 4 Q I am saying, you and I didn't spend a 5 couple hours going over this file? 6 A No, no. 7 Q Okay. So on 5/1, it switches to Roland 8 E. Womack buying the property? 9 A I am not sure when it switched. But 10 Roland E. Womack was the one who came in to buy the 11 property and who made the deposit. 12 Q And the very next page -- I hadn't noticed 13 this. A $55,000 cashier's check? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And it's dated May 28th, 1998, from Wells 16 Fargo Bank. 17 Do you see that check? The very next page 18 after the $5,000 check? 19 A Yes, mm-hmm. 20 Q And that $55,000 check is dated May 28th, 21 1998? 22 A Oh, yes, uh-huh. 23 Q And it's Check No. 0576019773? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And again, is that your wife's initial at 325 1 the bottom of the escrow cash receipt? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And that's for $55,000 on the receipt? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And is that -- do you recognize that as 6 her handwriting? 7 A Yes, mm-hmm. 8 Q That's Receipt No. 25486? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q That's dated May 28th, 1998? 11 A Then apparently perhaps these dates here 12 are correct and maybe the bank did agree to an extension. 13 Q Okay. What would be the easiest way to 14 make that determination so that the Grand Jurors would 15 know for sure? 16 Basically, he gave you a drop dead date of 17 4/29, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Then it appears from these checks that 20 maybe it was all the way until 5/29? 21 A I think that's probably correct. 22 Q Just take a couple minutes. Skim through 23 your file, if possible, and see if you can verify any of 24 that information, please. 25 And Mr. Ryan, I realize you are very 326 1 busy. This is a fairly thick file. If at any point you 2 would like to take a half hour to review the file and 3 start again, we would be happy to do that. We have 4 several witnesses. I am not trying to rush you along. 5 It's either way. 6 For instance, if you could go back to work 7 and check to see when these checks came in? I realize 8 your office is only two buildings away. 9 A I would be happy to do that. 10 Q However works best for you, if you are 11 more be comfortable one way or the other. I think the 12 Grand Jurors would be perfectly willing to kind of stop 13 your testimony at this point and have you come back. 14 A I apologize. I should know this, but I am 15 not the escrow officer. And there should be something in 16 the file which indicates that. 17 Looking at the dates of the other 18 documents, I am led to believe that the bank must have 19 extended until May, because the dates on the checks and 20 things were all May. 21 Q A few more questions before we take a 22 break for you then. 23 A Yes. 24 Q But, for instance, earlier today, you told 25 myself and Investigator Hall that you remembered that you 327 1 had to have the money in by a certain date? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And Roland and his wife were running 4 around to various banks, trying to get the money? 5 A That's right. 6 Q And they got the money just in time to 7 stop Mr. Mason's property from being foreclosed upon? 8 A Yes. I spoke myself to the banker. And 9 it's my recollection, I was asking him, if we closed it 10 on -- if -- there was a question of timing, because the 11 bank was back East. I recall talking to him on the phone 12 and asking him if we could fax him something that said it 13 closed on the Friday, that was the last day, he would get 14 the money -- the money would be in his account by Monday. 15 And he said, That will not suffice. And 16 the account -- the money had to be in my account by close 17 of business that day. 18 Q Okay. If the Grand Jury Foreman or the 19 Members of the Grand Jury don't have any large issues, I 20 could either ask Mr. Ryan a couple questions now or he 21 can come back sometime later this morning. Whatever 22 works best for the Grand Jurors, so that we can go 23 through this in kind of a more flowing way. 24 Mr. Foreman? 25 THE FOREPERSON: Yeah, given the thickness of the 328 1 file and everything, it would seem, you know, to keep 2 things flowing, like you said, it seems rather 3 mind-boggling to be flipping through all those things. I 4 would agree, if everyone else would, give him time to 5 research those. 6 MR. IREY: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 THE FOREMAN: I will go ahead and read him... 9 MR. IREY: 11:30, if that's all right, Mr. Ryan? 10 THE WITNESS: Sure. 11 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. You are admonished not to 12 reveal to any persons except as directed by the Court 13 what questions were asked or what responses were given or 14 any other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 15 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 16 appearance before the Grand Jury. 17 This admonition continues unless and until 18 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceedings 19 is made public. 20 Violation of this admonition is punishable 21 as contempt of court. This does not prevent you from 22 discussing the matter with your attorney, if you have an 23 attorney advising you with respect to your appearance 24 before the Grand Jury. 25 If I could please, I just need you to sign 329 1 and date that, that I read that to you. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 MR. IREY: Mr. Ryan, we are going to keep that 4 original and give you this complete copy. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 MR. IREY: Mary Nell Bryant. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Remain standing, please. If you 8 could raise your right hand. 9 Do you solemnly swear that the evidence 10 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 11 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 12 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 13 THE WITNESS: I do. 14 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 15 16 (TIME NOTED: 10:15 A.M.) 17 ---oOo--- 18 MARY NELL BRYANT 19 Called as a witness herein by the People, 20 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 21 and testified as follows: 22 EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. IREY: 24 Q Ms. Bryant, could you spell your last 25 name for the record. 330 1 A B-R-Y-A-N-T. 2 Q Ms. Bryant, you received a subpoena for 3 court today? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And do you know what it's about? 6 A A little. 7 Q About removal of a gas station? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. Where do you work? 10 A Swenson's Shoes. 11 Q And is that across the street from Roland 12 Womack's dental office? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And is it across the street from where a 15 gas station used to sit? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And did you happen to be working when the 18 gas station was taken down? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And that would have been May of this year, 21 if you recall? 22 A As I can recall, yes. 23 Q And shortly after the gas station was 24 taken down, you were interviewed by a District Attorney 25 investigator? 331 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did the District Attorney investigator 3 tell you why he came by your office? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And why did he say? 6 A It was having to deal with the building 7 being tore down across the street. 8 Q If you could speak up a little for the 9 people in the back of the courtroom, it would be 10 helpful. 11 A Okay. 12 Q Is this your first time testifying? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And I didn't have an opportunity to tell 15 you how the Grand Jury process worked, did I? 16 A No. 17 Q I will just briefly for a few seconds tell 18 you how that works. 19 I ask questions. 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q Since you are under oath, you testify 22 truthfully. 23 A Yes, mm-hmm. 24 Q And then at the end of that, any Member of 25 the Grand Jury can write a question down and I read it to 332 1 you. 2 A Okay. 3 Q And then you respond to that question. I 4 may have a follow-up question. And at the end of that, 5 then the Grand Jury Foreman will admonish you not to tell 6 anybody about your testimony today or what questions you 7 were asked and then you will be able to go. 8 A Okay. 9 Q You were present when the demolition of 10 the gas station occurred? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And you noticed several individuals across 13 the street? 14 A Yes. 15 Q But you don't know their specific names? 16 A No. 17 Q But you did notice Mrs. Womack's vehicle 18 parked, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And you knew Mrs. Womack how? 21 A I didn't know her. 22 Q Okay. 23 A I just knew that there was a car there. 24 Q All day? 25 A Yes. 333 1 Q And did you notice whether or not the 2 person in it was taking a videotape? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And was the person taking a videotape? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And that was a lady? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And then at some point, you said that the 9 gas station was knocked down rather rapidly; is that 10 correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q In a matter of about how long? Short 13 period of time? 14 A Yeah, short period of time. It didn't 15 take too long. 16 Q I will show you two photographs. They 17 have been marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 19 and 20. No. 18 19 is a photograph. Could you briefly describe what you 19 see in the middle of the photograph. 20 A Where they were just piling up the trash 21 and putting it into the truck. 22 Q This is directly across the street from 23 where you work? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And the vehicle in the right-hand corner 334 1 of the photograph, do you recognize that vehicle? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And you recognize that vehicle as what? 4 A Navigator. 5 Q Was that the vehicle that was there that 6 day? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And what color of truck in the foreground? 9 A It's -- it's a big moving truck for 10 debris, you know. 11 Q And an excavator? 12 A And an excavator, uh-huh. 13 Q And in Grand Jury Exhibit No. 20, is that 14 the same lot where the gas station was? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Appears to be the same excavator? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And a different truck? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And a little more of the debris is gone 21 than in Grand Jury Exhibit No. 19, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. So other than seeing debris loaded 24 and a gas station knocked down that day, did you notice 25 anything else? 335 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did you notice underground storage tanks? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you notice them coming out of the 5 ground? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you are sure of this? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And did you notice it being loaded onto a 10 a truck? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And instead of me asking yes or no 13 questions, I am going to ask you basically for a 14 narrative of that day, for the Members of the Grand Jury. 15 Basically, if you could, start with, I 16 came to work. This is how I noticed what was going on 17 across the street. All of that. Okay? 18 A Well, I came to work. And they were 19 tearing the building down. And then all the debris was 20 loaded into, you know, two trucks. One would carry, then 21 they had another one being filled. And then they cleared 22 that. 23 And then some tanks was removed and put on 24 the back of a truck. I don't know what -- I can't recall 25 the color or the kind. And it was put on a long bed 336 1 truck and hauled up the highway. 2 Q Okay. When you say "up the highway," you 3 actually saw it drive away? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did it go south on 49 or north? 6 A Uh, which way would be -- I'm facing this 7 way towards the -- 8 Q I have a photograph. 9 A Okay. Because I don't know. I get turned 10 around. 11 Q From the red truck, if you were in the 12 driver's seat on Grand Jury Exhibit No. 20, would it have 13 turned to the right or to the left? 14 A It would be to the left. 15 Q So it turned toward the excavator? 16 A Yes, towards the excavator. 17 Q And it had the tanks on it? 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q "Mm-hmm" being yes? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Because she is taking everything down. 22 Okay. 23 And loaded on a truck. You are not sure 24 of the color of the truck? 25 A I am not sure, but it was blue, and the 337 1 trailer -- it wasn't a full size trailer. It had, like, 2 woven type bed to it. 3 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 4 No. 21. It's a red and white truck with a trailer. 5 Do you have any recollection of whether or 6 not that was the type of truck or the type of trailer? 7 A That was the type of trailer, but I don't 8 think that was the type of truck. 9 Q Okay. 10 A They had -- it was more trucks involved. 11 Q More trucks than a red truck and a gold 12 truck? 13 A Mm-hmm. 14 Q "Mm-hmm" being yes? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And I realize it's hard. I will just try 17 to remind you. Okay? 18 Then after the tanks left and after the 19 person stopped videotaping, then do you work on Sunday 20 days at the shoe store? 21 A No. 22 Q So you don't know whether or not there was 23 any work done on Sunday at that -- 24 A No, hm-mmm. 25 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 338 1 No. 22. That's another angle of what? Does it appear to 2 be a trailer? 3 A It's a -- I said that was the trailer, but 4 the other truck that was there, it had a different 5 trailer on it. 6 Q Okay. 7 A That I saw. 8 Q Okay. But I mean -- 9 A It was similar to that, but it may not 10 have been that trailer. I don't know. 11 Q But it was similar, flat trailer. So it 12 was a truck and trailer combination? 13 A But the truck wasn't as large as that. 14 Q Okay. Then several days later, when 15 was -- who else was working with you on that day? 16 A Randy. I can't pronounce his last name. 17 Q C-U-H-N-A? 18 A C-H-U-N-A. 19 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 20 No. 23. 21 Do you recognize the building in the right 22 middle of the photograph? 23 A Here? 24 Q "Here" being next to the -- 25 A Yes, uh-huh. 339 1 Q And that's the dental office? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And then the parking lot? 4 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q That's where the gas station used to be? 6 A Yes. 7 Q That's basically how it looks today? 8 A Mm-hmm. Yes, mm-hmm. 9 Q So Randy C-U-N-H-A was working that day? 10 I will call him Cunha. 11 THE FOREPERSON: Cunha. 12 THE WITNESS: That's it. Cunha. 13 Q BY MR. IREY: So he was there watching the 14 underground storage tank come out of the ground also? Or 15 do you know? 16 A I don't know if he saw it or not. You 17 know, we were busy. You know, we watched it being done. 18 And I don't know if he saw that or not. 19 Q Okay. Did you chat about the work that 20 was being done? 21 A Yes. 22 Q On that specific date? 23 A Yeah. Like, how fast they tore it down. 24 Q Did he say that he knew some of the people 25 that were working there? 340 1 A Yes. 2 Q And do you remember any of the names he 3 told you of the people that were working there? 4 A No, I sure don't. 5 Q But he did say: I know some of the people 6 working there? 7 A Yes, mm-hmm. 8 Q Were you ever present when a District 9 Attorney investigator came by and interviewed him? 10 A Yes, mm-hmm. 11 Q Did they interview him in your presence? 12 A Mmmm... On some questions, you know. But 13 not all of them, I don't believe. 14 Q Okay. And after May 2nd, did you ever 15 chat with Randy or -- who is the owner of Swenson's 16 shoes? 17 A Rob. 18 Q Rob? 19 A Rob Swenson. 20 Q Did you chat about the underground storage 21 tank pull? 22 A No, hm-mmm. 23 Q I met you for the first time this morning, 24 correct? 25 A Yes. 341 1 Q And you indicated that Randy was trying to 2 get out of his subpoena? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And could you explain to the Grand Jury 5 how you know that Randy is trying to get out of his 6 subpoena. 7 A Well, he knows a lot of the people that 8 were working on the job site. 9 Q Did he tell you he is trying to get out of 10 the subpoena? 11 A Well, yes. You know, he just said he 12 hated to go. 13 Q Did he tell you what steps he was taking 14 to get out of the subpoena? 15 A No. 16 Q Did Mr. Swenson also talk about Randy and 17 the subpoena? 18 A No. 19 Q But -- okay. 20 Did you see any other work at the site 21 Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday of the following week? 22 Drill rigs, that type of equipment? 23 A They came in, you know, was doing the 24 concrete work and the fences. 25 Q Bringing the gravel in? 342 1 A Yeah, bringing the gravel in, the fence. 2 Just kind of, you know sprucing up where the people could 3 park there. 4 Q Okay. So a trailer like that, correct? 5 A It was a trailer similar to that. 6 Q Probably not a truck like that? 7 A No. 8 Q And you saw the tanks come out of the 9 ground? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And you saw them load it on a truck and 12 trailer combination? 13 A Yes. Smaller truck. 14 Q And they turned left? 15 A Mm-hmm. 16 Q Yes? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And that's the last time you saw the 19 tanks? 20 A Yes, mm-hmm. 21 Q At work, have you chatted with Randy 22 about, where did the tank go? 23 A We might have said, you know, where could 24 they take them? Because we didn't know, you know, what 25 was going on. After we probably read it in the paper. 343 1 Q But Randy didn't have any idea where? 2 A No. Hm-mmm. 3 Q Okay. And did Mr. Swenson have any idea 4 where? 5 A No. He was not, I don't think, in town. 6 He doesn't usually work on Saturday. 7 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions of 8 Ms. Bryant. Any -- I did that before. 9 Q Just because I have it marked. This has 10 been marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 24. And that's a -- 11 if you could describe for the Members of the Grand Jury, 12 is that the entire area where the gas station was? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So it's a fairly small spot, correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q There are four cars parked in there? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And it pretty much fills up the dimensions 19 of the lot? 20 A Yes. 21 MR. IREY: Okay. Thank you. I have no further 22 questions of Ms. Bryant. 23 Do any Members of the Grand Jury have 24 any? Okay. 25 THE FOREPERSON: There are no questions? 344 1 MR. IREY: Yes, a few people do have questions. 2 Thanks. 3 Q Was it dark and rainy when the tank came 4 out of the ground? 5 A It was raining that day. But at that 6 particular time, I can't recall. 7 Q Was it dark? 8 A It was dark and light, you know, all day, 9 off and on. 10 Q Was it p.m., like the sun had set? 11 A No, no. 12 Q Did you get a clear look at the truck and 13 trailer? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You see lots of trucks and trailers 16 though? 17 A Yeah, but it wasn't the truck and trailer 18 that was in the pictures. 19 Q But you are positive you saw the tank 20 on -- 21 A A truck, yes. 22 Q Or a trailer, a truck or a trailer? 23 A It was on a trailer pulled by a truck. 24 Q When you say left, do you mean -- get a 25 photo -- south on 49? And again, your business is 345 1 directly across the street from Grand Jury Exhibit No. 2 20, correct? 3 A Mm-hmm. 4 Q Okay. And if you go to the right -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q -- on the photograph, that's toward 7 Martell; and if you go left, that's toward Mokelumne 8 Hill? 9 A It would be towards Martell, which, if 10 that's south? 11 Q That's north. 12 A North, I think. I don't know. That's why 13 I said. 14 GRAND JUROR: It's north. 15 THE WITNESS: North. 16 MR. IREY: I couldn't testify. 17 THE WITNESS: It was going towards Martell, 18 left. 19 Q BY MR. IREY: Not toward Mokelumne Hill? 20 A No. 21 MR. IREY: Any other questions? 22 Q Did you see the driver of the truck? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you see the -- if so, did you see the 25 driver on site earlier that day? 346 1 A I don't know, you know, who drove it off. 2 Because I didn't know any -- there was one guy that I 3 knew, but he demolished the building. But I didn't know 4 any of the -- I really don't know this guy. I just know 5 him when I see him. 6 Q Bill Wolin, Jr. 7 A I couldn't tell you the guy's name. 8 Q But you recognized one of the people? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Because of the shoe store? 11 A Yes. He has been at the shoe store, yes. 12 MR. IREY: Any other questions? Okay. 13 Grand Jury Foreman has what's called an 14 admonition for you. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 17 to any person except as directed by the Court what 18 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 19 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 20 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 21 appearance before the Grand Jury. 22 This admonition continues unless and until 23 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceedings 24 is made public. 25 Violation of this admonition is punishable 347 1 as contempt of court. This does not prevent you from 2 discussing the matter with your attorney if you have an 3 attorney advising you with respect to your appearance 4 before the Grand Jury. 5 If I could please get you to sign and date 6 that I read you that admonition. 7 THE WITNESS: Today is the? 8 THE FOREPERSON: The 13th. 9 Thank you very much. 10 MR. IREY: Thank you, Ms. Bryant. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 MR. IREY: Gary Clark. 13 Do we need a break? Let's take a three to 14 five-minute break. Then -- is that long enough? Because 15 we are going take a break at 11:00. 16 THE FOREPERSON: We were going to break at 17 11:00. Five minutes, okay. 18 (Pause in proceedings.) 19 THE FOREPERSON: Raise your right hand. 20 Do you solemnly swear that the evidence 21 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 22 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 23 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 25 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 348 1 (TIME NOTED: 10:35 A.M.) 2 ---oOo--- 3 GARY CLARK 4 Called as a witness herein by the People, 5 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 6 and testified as follows: 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. IREY: 9 Q Mr. Clark, how long have you lived in 10 Amador County? 11 A Since 1980. 12 Q And what is your current job? 13 A I am the County's Land Use Agency 14 Director. 15 Q And as a Land Use Agency Director, you 16 have several other smaller departments under you? 17 A Yeah. Land Use Agency now consists of the 18 Building Department, Planning Department, Health 19 Department and a few others. Those are the three main 20 ones. 21 Q Is that an appointed position? 22 A Yes, by the Board of Supervisors. 23 Q So you are the highest ranking land use 24 person in the county other than the Board? 25 A Yes. 349 1 Q And how many employees work underneath 2 you? 3 A Approximately twenty at any given time. 4 Q Okay. And the Environmental Health 5 Department is one of the departments under your umbrella? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And if you know, does the Environmental 8 Health Department handle underground storage tank 9 compliance in this County? 10 A Yes, it does. 11 Q Underground storage tanks have leaked, 12 that is handled by whom? 13 A Regional Water Quality Control Board and 14 the County work together on tanks that have leaked in the 15 past or will leak or might spring a leak. 16 Q But the compliance of existing tanks is 17 under your umbrella? 18 A Yes. 19 Q That's Mr. Israel? 20 A Mr. Israel is deputy director of the 21 department. Mr. Fourt is the one that is assigned to do 22 the work. 23 Q Okay. And you have been in the county 24 since 1980. How long have you been the Director? 25 A Since September of 1980. 350 1 Q They hired you to be the Director? 2 A Yes. 3 Q So you just passed eighteen years? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. Do you know Mr. David Mason, III? 6 A Yes, I do. 7 Q Do you know Mr. Mark Sherrill? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you know Mr. Robert Womack? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Prior to May of 1998, had you had any 12 problems, if you recall, regarding compliance issues with 13 Mr. Womack? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Not you personally, but you being the 16 agency. 17 A The department. Yes, the department. 18 Q What types of violations? 19 A Nothing in the health department. 20 The building department had at that time 21 control of grading permits. And the building department 22 also has, of course, building permits. And for a short 23 period of time, we did the building permits for the City 24 of Redding. 25 Q City of? 351 1 A Excuse me. City of Jackson. 2 Q Prior to coming to Amador County, did you 3 possibly work in Redding? 4 A Shasta County, yes. 5 Q What department there? 6 A Planning Department. 7 Q So your background in the Planning 8 Department is how many years total? 9 A Twenty-five years. 10 Q Okay. 11 A Twenty-six. 12 Q So not environmental health. 13 For a while, you handled City of Jackson 14 building permits? 15 A Yes. The City of Jackson had an employee 16 that became ill. And rather than hire a new one, they 17 asked us -- they thought it would be for a short period 18 of time, which it was at that time we took over their 19 inspections and plan checking -- not anything more than 20 that -- by contract for about six months, I believe. 21 Q And that employee was Gary Rouse? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And so for a period of time in 1994, your 24 department handled the plan checking? 25 A I think it was more recent than '94, but 352 1 somewhere in there. 2 Q And you said you had a problem with -- 3 that's how you met Mr. Womack or -- 4 A No. Mr. Womack is a developer that had 5 had contact with the County for some years. A big 6 subdivision project just east of town he had been the 7 applicant for it years ago, probably mid '80s. 8 Q When you say a "big development," how 9 large? 10 A He proposed a 1,700 lot subdivision. 11 Q How many acres? 12 A I think at that time it was 1,800 acres. 13 Golf course, that kind of thing. Big project. 14 MR. IREY: Do you need a break for water? You 15 sure? 16 GRAND JUROR: Not at this point. 17 Q BY MR. IREY: How many acres? 18 A Eighteen hundred. 19 Q Is that land that he owned? 20 A With developers, sometimes you don't know 21 who owns it and who has got a deed of trust, who is 22 equitable owner, who is the -- sometimes a person will be 23 the -- only acquire it if he gets approval of the 24 project. In his case, I believe he owned it. 25 Q You are not positive? 353 1 A I know that he is a large equitable owner 2 of it. He almost foreclosed on it a couple of years ago. 3 Q Foreclosed against someone else, who was a 4 partial owner? 5 A Yes. That project he requested never was 6 approved. A subsequent individual came in and got 7 approval of a much smaller project. 8 Q On the same property? 9 A On the same property. And it didn't 10 happen either. So there was foreclosure action started. 11 It didn't happen. I believe Mr. Womack is still the 12 equitable owner. He is the one they are paying the money 13 to. 14 Q While your department was handling some 15 issues for the City of Jackson while Mr. Rouse was out, 16 did an issue come up with Mr. Womack? 17 A Yes. He acquired or his son acquired a 18 house right next to the property that we are talking 19 about now. 20 Q And that's right next to 505 Sutter 21 Street? 22 A Yes. I don't know the address. 23 Q Okay. The property next to Grand Jury 24 Exhibit No. 20? 25 A Yes. 354 1 Q That would be to the side toward Martell? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Would that be north? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. And is that -- this is not marked 6 yet. 7 And what -- this is Grand Jury Exhibit 8 23. Is it the building in the photograph? 9 A Yes, it is. 10 Q And what was that issue or were those 11 issues, if it's more than one? 12 A I am not certain exactly who brought the 13 property. It was either Mr. Womack or his son who was a 14 dentist. 15 At the time, it had been -- they bought 16 it, it was a doctor's office, Dr. Minton, I believe. 17 They bought it and started to remodel the building for a 18 a dentist, a dentist's office. 19 When they got into the building, they 20 started doing a lot more than I think they even 21 originally intended. So my office, one of the inspectors 22 stopped by and told them they needed to get a building 23 permit. 24 Q Okay. And that's standard? 25 A It happens all the time. 355 1 Q I will ask a different question. People 2 are supposed to get permits ahead of time, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And if they don't and the County finds out 5 about it or the City in this case, then they remind 6 people that they needed a permit, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And that's what was done here? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And so then can you remember the name of 11 the contractor who was doing the work? 12 A I don't believe there was one. 13 Well, wait a minute. I think Mr. Onetto 14 was involved in it. Whether he was a contractor 15 officially or whether Mr. Womack was just using him on an 16 hourly basis, I don't recall. 17 Q Okay. And so besides not having a permit, 18 were there other issues that caused that building to be 19 what is called red-tagged? 20 A No. Just -- just a remodeling. 21 Q Do you know if it had anything to do with 22 pouring a bunch of cement on a weekend, if you recall? 23 A I don't recall that. 24 Q Do you remember a former County Supervisor 25 named Mr. Begovich talking to you about this? 356 1 A Vaguely. I remember that -- it's common 2 practice that people will go to their Supervisor when 3 they get a red tag or something. And Mr. Begovich is the 4 Supervisor for the City of Jackson. 5 And I do recall him coming in and saying, 6 What's going on? 7 Q When you say "is," do you mean was at the 8 time? 9 A He was at the time, yes. 10 Q And now it's whom? 11 A Richard Escamilla. 12 Q So the Board of Supervisors sometimes 13 would come in and mention an issue or two to you as the 14 Director? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And do you remember if he talked to you 17 about that specific site? 18 A I can recall that, when we went down and 19 looked at the structure, Mr. Begovich was with us. 20 Q And you actually went to the structure? 21 A Yes. 22 Q I am going to read you part of a statement 23 made by Mr. Womack at a meeting on September 2nd. And if 24 this helps refresh your recollection, let me know. If it 25 doesn't, just tell the Members of the Grand Jury that you 357 1 don't recall that incident or those specifics. That's 2 fine. Okay? 3 A Yes. 4 Q "They do the permit unintelligible city, 5 but the county did the inspection. When we were redoing 6 this building, just something that is uh... out of your 7 mind a lot comes from. We were doing the inspection for 8 the building. We tore it out. A little back room had a 9 wooden floor. It showed it was going to be 10 unintelligible. When we tore the floor out, there was a 11 rupture about three feet deep that water from the County 12 building out here had washed down and washed all the 13 unintelligible and everything out of this room. 14 "Well, who is going to stop it? Because 15 it was on a Saturday. So I said, Hell, let's just fill 16 it with concrete. So we filled it full of concrete, 17 figuring we were doing it better than what was required. 18 "Well, Monday morning, unintelligible, 19 comes down, unintelligible. Well, John Begovich, 20 unintelligible, Supervisor, comes by and says that was 21 where his mother had lived when she first come over from 22 the Old Country. He wanted to see if we were going to 23 tear down the building and change it. He said, I would 24 like to see it stay pretty much the way it is. We told 25 him unintelligible. But we said, you know, we are not 358 1 going to do anything right now. We are red-tagged. 2 "So our contractor that was working on it 3 Ron unintelligible." 4 Is that --? 5 A Onetto, I think. 6 Q "... is also a good friend of Begovich. 7 He said, Do you have a phone in your car? I said, Yeah. 8 He told me to dial this number. Call this Gary Clark. 9 Had Gary Clark come down. 10 "He told him, he said, you red-necked son 11 of a bitch, unintelligible. He said, you go in that 12 room. You get that unintelligible tag and you destroy 13 it. Don't you set foot in this property again. If you 14 do -- or if you don't go in and get it, I am going to 15 find -- I'm going -- I'm going to go in and find it and I 16 am going to stuff it up your ass." 17 Do you remember Begovich doing that? 18 A Begovich talks like that, but I don't 19 remember him saying that, no. 20 From what I recall, there was nothing that 21 controversial about it. They started the building 22 without a building permit. I do believe when they got 23 into it, they got into -- Dr. Mitton had not remodeled it 24 as well as they thought he had. 25 And by the time I went down there, I do 359 1 believe Begovich was there. The -- they were really 2 tearing into the building. In fact, if I recall, there 3 was something about they started tearing so much of the 4 walls that the whole roof looked like it was going to 5 come down. 6 Again, I repeat, we were doing this for 7 the City of Jackson, strictly on plan checking and 8 inspections. It was Jackson's call on the building 9 permit as to what needed to be done as far as zoning or 10 anything else. 11 We went down there and simply did what we 12 do everywhere else. We red-tagged it. They came in and 13 got the permit. They remodeled it. I don't believe it 14 was any more controversial than that. 15 Q Years later, that's not what why you 16 referred the case to the District Attorney's Office? 17 A Nothing to do with it. I forgot all about 18 it. 19 Q But you have been told by others that that 20 is what Mr. Womack is telling everyone in the county? 21 A Well, I had read the thing in the paper, 22 there was some kind of vendetta or something. 23 What I thought he was talking about was -- 24 the most trouble we had with Mr. Womack was over -- as I 25 told you, is the Bossi Ranch out on Previtelli Road. I 360 1 thought that was the one he was talking about. 2 Q What was that issue? 3 A He had acquired the Bossi Ranch from Mr. 4 Bossi. And we had complaints from somebody that was 5 still living on the property that he was out burying cars 6 and various hazardous materials. 7 The health department went out to check 8 it. We decided not to proceed based on that there was 9 just some ill will between -- I think it was the Bossi's 10 stepson who was being ordered off the property, was 11 claiming Mr. Womack was doing something out there. We 12 dropped the investigation. 13 Q Because of proof problems? 14 A Proof problems, yeah. 15 Q It wasn't because Mr. Womack called 16 Begovich? 17 A No. 18 Q It wasn't -- 19 A In fact, he -- I don't know whether Mr. 20 Begovich was still Supervisor then or not. I can't 21 recall the date on that either. 22 Q Is the Bossi Ranch in Jackson? 23 A No. It's outside about two, three miles. 24 Q Would it be a different Board of 25 Supervisor? 361 1 A No. It would still be District One. I 2 can't recall whether Supervisor Begovich was the 3 Supervisor at the time or Mr. Escamilla came on. It was 4 probably still Begovich. 5 Q So nothing was found one way or the other 6 on the Bossi Ranch issue? 7 A No. And then we had another -- a couple 8 of other grading permit incidents where we told him, he 9 is moving more than 50 cubic yards of dirt, he needs to 10 get a grading permit. Which is a building permit. 11 Q One at his house on Ridge Road? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And one at his son's house on Highway 88? 14 Or if you know? 15 A I don't remember that one. I remember the 16 one on his property. He planted trees on it later. 17 Q He came in after the fact and said, It's 18 an orchard? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And that way, he is allowed to move more 21 dirt because it's a farm? 22 A There was a lot of disagreement about it. 23 I remember that. That happens. 24 Q In fact, the excavation silted up adjacent 25 people's properties, correct? 362 1 A You would need to talk to Mr. Smiley. He 2 was the building inspector handled the job. 3 I get whatever hits the fan. Pardon the 4 expression. As soon as they are resolved, I usually 5 don't care much more about them. That seemed to be 6 resolved, as were most of Mr. Womack's resolved one way 7 or the other until this one. 8 Q Did you tell Mr. Womack he didn't need any 9 permits to pull the tank? 10 A No. 11 Q Did Mr. Womack ask you if he needed any 12 permits to pull the tank? 13 A No. He had -- should I explain? 14 Q Yes, please. 15 A He came in one day and asked me about 16 getting a permit to demolish the building, the old 17 service station. 18 And I told him that we no longer were 19 doing Jackson's building permits. Demolition just 20 requires a building permit, not a -- there is nothing -- 21 in fact, it's a very simple building permit. Building a 22 building is a lot more complicated building permit. 23 Demolishing one, some of our major issues 24 are where the stuff is going and that somebody doing it 25 is qualified. I just told him we were doing Jackson's 363 1 when you did the dentist's office. We aren't doing them 2 now. I didn't even think about a tank. 3 Q Okay. 4 A And he didn't ask. 5 Q Okay. So he left your office. Something 6 about a golf course? Was that part of the same 7 conversation? 8 A I don't have the faintest idea what he is 9 talking about there. 10 Q Okay. And then -- 11 A Well, the golf course, only thing I can 12 imagine is, he did have that project out here he was 13 proposing that does have a golf course on the property 14 that he was -- I recall somewhat talking about that Gold 15 Creek project with him. Because I think that's where I 16 learned that he was intending the foreclosure. 17 Q Okay. You said the issues about where the 18 debris goes. What are those issues? 19 A The land -- sometimes when people demolish 20 buildings, they don't know the proper place that some of 21 the material has to go, the landfill, or it -- the 22 difference is probably, most people don't know the 23 difference between clean fill and bad fill, fill that has 24 to be taken to the landfill versus something that can be 25 taken out and used as fill on somebody else's property. 364 1 Q Okay. And you have seen the video that 2 Mrs. Womack took, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And was some of that fill clean fill? Or 5 was it possibly not? 6 A I can't imagine any of that going anywhere 7 but the dump. 8 Q How about contaminated soil part of it? 9 A That's a special hazardous material that 10 has to be taken care of in definite ways. It can be 11 taken to the landfill if it's not too bad. And, you 12 know, they can aerate it. 13 Q If it's been tested? 14 A If it's been tested and found -- it costs 15 a lot more. That's one thing for sure. It costs a lot 16 more to dispose of it. It used to be it had to be taken 17 down to -- out of County. 18 Q Do you remember the 505 site when there 19 was an emergency tank pull back in 1991? 20 A I recall it, in that I live a block away 21 over by the post office. I recall the work that was 22 being done at the time. 23 I thought the station, you know, had 24 closed right about that time. It seemed like it was 25 never open after that. It was very hard to get in and 365 1 out of that station. We never saw it had a lot of 2 customers in there anyway. I didn't consciously think of 3 it. I thought, the station is closed. Probably the 4 tanks were gone. 5 Q But you didn't know one way or the other? 6 A Didn't know one way or the other. 7 Q You didn't buy your gas there? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay. So were you present at the May -- 10 prior to the May 14th Land Use Committee hearing, did you 11 have some other meetings with Members of the Board and/or 12 Connie Sherrill? 13 A I should put it in the context of how 14 it -- 15 Q Okay. 16 A On Monday morning, I knew something was 17 going on. 18 Q May 4th? 19 A May 4th, yes. At the counter. With 20 regards to Mr. Womack. I didn't know any of the details 21 at that time. It hadn't hit the fan yet. 22 The -- but that afternoon, I think Mr. 23 Mason had come in. Mr. Israel had told me that what had 24 happened. And they were -- at that point, it looked like 25 it was all going to get resolved. 366 1 And then the next day, Tuesday, is the 2 Board of Supervisors day. And at that point in time, 3 things started to get heated up about what was going to 4 be required to be done and how -- what kind of laws had 5 been violated. And two of the Supervisors suggested that 6 we meet with all the parties involved in one of the 7 Board's conference rooms. 8 And Mrs. Sherrill was there. Mr. Sherrill 9 wasn't. Supervisors Bamert and Escamilla were there. 10 And Mr. Mason and Mr. Womack. 11 Q And some of your staff? 12 A And Mr. Fourt and Mr. Israel and myself. 13 Q Okay. During that meeting? 14 A On that meeting, things went downhill very 15 quickly. Because the first question was, Where is the 16 tank? 17 And at that time, they started talking 18 about, Well, it was at Owens Illinois. Both of them 19 seemed to agree it was at Owens Illinois. 20 Q Both of them? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Not just Mr. Mason? 23 A Not just Mr. Mason. 24 Q Not just Mr. Womack? 25 A No. 367 1 Q Both Mr. Robert Womack and Mr. David 2 Mason? 3 A Right. 4 I remember one of the reasons why it went 5 downhill is that we were upset that it -- the issue of 6 the contaminated soils and the issue of other things like 7 that. 8 But also, they are dangerous to handle. 9 And there had been some fatalities in this program around 10 the state. And I think it was just one in Auburn that we 11 had been talking about. And we thought that they had 12 endangered both themselves and that area right around 13 there. 14 Q Had they -- at that point, had you already 15 been briefed by Mr. Israel about his priors conversations 16 with Mr. Womack? 17 A Yes. 18 Q I can't ask you the specifics of that. We 19 have already asked Mr. Israel. 20 But you were briefed by Mr. Israel that he 21 had had prior contact with Mr. Womack on this very issue? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. And so at this meeting, you are 24 concerned about the location of the tank? 25 A Yes. 368 1 Q And you were told what? 2 A That, to their knowledge, it went to Owens 3 Illinois. 4 Q Okay. And that was a 10:00 meeting? 5 A No. That was -- okay. There was a 6 beginning meeting at 10:00. Then we met with the two 7 Board Members at noon. I wasn't too much involved in the 8 10:00 meeting, if I recall. 9 Q Okay. 10 A I think that's when I was brought in. I 11 think that's the point at which it hit the fan. 12 Q So you weren't -- I am going to give you a 13 copy -- did you bring a copy of the Land Use meeting with 14 you? 15 A No, I didn't. No. That's the following 16 week, the 14th. 17 Q I apologize. This isn't in the record, 18 so I will ask you a couple questions about it. 19 May 5th, 10:00 a.m. These notes were 20 taken by Mr. Fourt. I am only using them to help refresh 21 your recollection. If you don't remember, you don't 22 remember. 23 It says: At 10:00, there was a meeting to 24 brief Supervisors Bamert, Escamilla on unpermitted tank 25 removal and threats to public safety. Present at the 369 1 meeting were Gary Clark, Robert Fourt, Bamert, Escamilla, 2 Sherrill? 3 A I thought that was at noon. 10:00, they 4 are usually still in session. 5 Q This appears to be a pre-meeting. If you 6 don't remember a pre-meeting before you actually had Mr. 7 Mason and Mr. Womack in, that's -- 8 A I don't recall talking to Mr. Mason and 9 Womack without the two Board Members being there. He is 10 saying the two Board Members were there? 11 Q It sounds like there was a pre-meeting 12 where the county staff got together. Then when Mr. Mason 13 and Mr. Womack came in, there was a larger meeting. 14 A I -- I recall only meeting Mr. Womack and 15 Mr. Mason with the two Board Members there, because the 16 meeting generated a lot of heat very quickly. 17 Q But do you go to a lot of meetings? 18 A Yes. 19 Q So there could have been a three- to 20 five-minute discussion that you may not -- 21 A Might have been. 22 Q Okay. Then at noon, there was a meeting. 23 You say it was heated. In what way? 24 A Well, the issue of safety in the 25 neighborhood was one of the first items that we discussed 370 1 and -- 2 Q How did they respond? 3 A Well, how could we be concerned about it? 4 It was raining or something to that degree. It was 5 raining. And they put dry ice in it. 6 And we asked them, Where would you get dry 7 ice around here? And, you know, just those kind of 8 things. Why did -- you know, this was a very foolish 9 thing to do. 10 Q So they told you they dry iced it? 11 A At a certain point. I can't recall. I am 12 pretty sure at that meeting. That's the first time they 13 brought it up they dry iced it. 14 I remember Mr. Ford asking, Did you put 15 dry ice in all three compartments? And Mr. Womack said, 16 There's three compartments? So then he said he hadn't 17 put the dry ice in the tank until they had placed it on 18 the truck. 19 And then they were talking somewhere in 20 there about the chain bursting when they were trying to 21 lift it out of the ground. 22 MR. IREY: Mr. Foreman, I think I can finish in 23 five minutes. Is that okay. 24 Q Did Mr. Mason state he had given 25 permission to Womack for demolition and removal of the 371 1 tanks? 2 A No. 3 Q You don't remember that at the meeting? 4 A No. Mr. Mason, I do believe, said he 5 didn't know he was going to pull the tank. 6 I think there was an agreement in the 7 sales agreement that Mr. Womack would be doing it. But I 8 don't believe -- Mr. Mason said at the time he did not 9 authorize him to do it that weekend. 10 Q Then I will ask a question. 11 Do you remember Mr. Mason stating that, 12 although he had given permission to Mr. Womack for 13 demolition and removal of the tanks, he was unaware that 14 the tanks were being removed on Saturday? 15 A Yes, I remember him saying that. 16 Q Do you remember Mr. Womack stating he was 17 unaware of underground storage tank closure permitting 18 requirements? 19 A I remember Mr. Womack saying that, yes. 20 Q Do you remember Mr. Womack saying 21 something about he had contacted a lab to take samples? 22 A Yeah. I believe there was some confusion 23 about the spelling of the lab name. And I recall that 24 Mister -- I think Mr. Hall later said, Well, they will 25 come up on a minute's notice. 372 1 And Mr. Womack said he couldn't get them 2 for a couple of weeks to test the water. 3 Q At noon that day, Mr. Womack is saying, I 4 contacted a lab and it takes two weeks? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And later Mr. Hall or somebody who worked 7 for you said, They will come up. All you have to do is 8 call? 9 A I think Mr. Fourt is the one that actually 10 did the calling. 11 Q Then Owens Illinois came -- not Owens 12 Illinois. 13 A Sprague or Spragg. 14 Q Sparger Laboratories came up that day? 15 Q Then after that, were there other 16 meetings regarding the missing underground storage tank? 17 A Yeah. That meeting didn't end very well. 18 If I recall, there was nothing resolved. 19 Q How did it end? 20 A Everybody was mad. 21 Q Everybody? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q Mr. Mason wasn't happy? 24 A The Board Members wanted to make it 25 clear. Mr. Womack agreed they were going to do 373 1 everything right from that point on. But still, we had 2 said, Well, okay. We are going to check out the tank, 3 the tank -- whether the tank was or was not at Owens 4 Illinois. And we needed to get it back to -- or properly 5 clean it, rinsate it or whatever they are talking about 6 they have to do to it to make it harmless. 7 And so we said, Okay. We are going to set 8 up a Land Use meeting, a formal -- this was an informal 9 Board meeting or Board committee. The formal committee 10 that does the oversights to my agency is the Supervisors 11 Vinson and Escamilla. We scheduled a meeting for the 12 14th of May. 13 Q Okay. 14 A And asked Mr. Womack and Mr. Mason to come 15 back to that. 16 Q Were you present at that meeting? 17 A Yes. That was a formal meeting with 18 minutes, the regular agendized meeting. 19 Q Did Mr. Mason show up? 20 A No. 21 Q Do you know where he was? 22 A We were told he was in Mexico. 23 Q And Mr. Womack did show up? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And on May 14th, you were Item 3 on the 374 1 agenda? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And you read your -- reviewed your notes 4 before you came here today? 5 A Yes. 6 Q That presentation was mostly by Mr. Israel 7 and Mr. Fourt, correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And then Mr. Womack told his story? 10 A Well, I think before that, Mr. Israel and 11 Mr. Fourt relayed they had checked with Owens Illinois 12 and there was no tank. 13 Q Okay. And so then Mr. Womack got up 14 and -- was it everybody sitting down? Or is it a formal 15 presentation, where the person comes up to a podium? 16 A No. We were sitting around a table. 17 Q And notes were taken by Elaine Williams? 18 A Elaine Williams is one of my secretaries, 19 yes. 20 Q And she takes accurate notes? 21 A Yes. Very accurate. 22 Q Okay. And she took notes that day? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And Mr. Womack told a different story than 25 the Owens Illinois story? 375 1 A Yeah. Suddenly, the tank -- he went to 2 Mel's and found somebody that wanted a gas tank. And 3 they came at 6:00 during the rain and hauled it off. He 4 didn't know who it was, but they would be back later to 5 pick up the pumps. 6 Q Okay. 7 A And the pumps were out on the Bossi Ranch. 8 Q And that's pretty much all he knew? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. Then Supervisor Vinson asked if it 11 was a State or County matter. 12 And Israel told the Board what? 13 A The -- a lot of the stuff we do is 14 strictly local ordinances, the building codes, even 15 septic tank codes, they are State-originated, but they 16 are totally local. 17 We have -- the County of Amador, like most 18 of the counties, rural counties, has an agreement with 19 Cal EPA, California Environmental Protection Agency, to 20 take over some of these programs, small water systems and 21 whatever, because we -- in rural counties, they don't 22 want to station a permanent State employee to do that 23 area. We have an agreement to administer this program 24 with them. We had just been audited by them to see how 25 well we were complying with that program and had gotten a 376 1 good report. 2 And the first thing that was of concern to 3 us, of course, is that they would find that this was not 4 doing the program right if we didn't do something about 5 this. It's a State program. We are administering it. 6 We are given a report card. 7 Q And at that meeting then, did you tell the 8 Members of the Board who are actually the Land Use 9 Committee that Womack and Mason should have known better 10 than to do what was done? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Why is that? 13 A Well, Mr. Mason obviously has been in the 14 business for a lot of years and had, in fact, closed -- 15 he had had this station when they pulled the old tank 16 that had been leaking and put this double-wall tank in. 17 Q He had previously done the right things? 18 A He always had done the right thing. It 19 surprised me this had happened with him involved. 20 And Mr. Womack is in the construction 21 business and, first of all, should have known better than 22 to be doing these things with a tank, an open tank. 23 And secondly, that I -- like I say, he has 24 been around a long time. 25 Q Okay. And then you told them about the 377 1 potential penalties and the serious dangers, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And then they asked what -- they asked 4 what path the staff should take. And you recommended 5 that you should bring in some professional investigators; 6 is that correct? 7 A Yes. Especially to find the tank. 8 Q Because at that point, you had been 9 unsuccessful for twelve days in finding the tank? 10 A At that point, Mr. Womack was saying 11 things about people videotaping that he didn't know; 12 somebody was videotaping from Coast to Coast. Actually, 13 I think it was a house next -- or nearby, and we thought 14 it was perhaps Mrs. Ferari. 15 Q So he actually told you that somebody was 16 videotaping that he didn't know? 17 A Right. 18 And so then he said some other things 19 about the truck and people that were around. So we said, 20 Okay. We need to have a professional investigator look 21 into this. 22 Q And then the case was referred to Linda 23 Van Vleck? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And she put together a package? 378 1 A Yes. 2 Q And referred it? 3 A To the District Attorney, yes. 4 The Committee said District Attorney. We 5 have two options. We can go through County Counsel's 6 Office for civil; or we can go and refer it to the 7 District Attorney. In this case, it was to the District 8 Attorney. 9 Q Okay. So I think you have already 10 answered this. This isn't some vendetta against Mr. 11 Mason or Mr. Womack? 12 A No. 13 Q Standard operating procedure? 14 A Standard operating procedure. 15 Q You don't end up with a lot of missing 16 tanks in Amador County? 17 A This is my first experience. 18 MR. IREY: Okay. At this point, Members of the 19 Grand Jury can write down a question and then I will read 20 it into the record, and then you respond. Okay? 21 Any questions of Mr. Clark. 22 Q Was he told that he needed it -- a permit 23 to remove the tank when he inquired about the property 24 being torn down? Did you personally advise him to get a 25 permit to pull the tank? 379 1 A No. The tank was not even discussed. He 2 asked about demolishing the building and turning it into 3 an office and a parking lot. 4 But, no, the tank was not even discussed. 5 Q With you? 6 A No, it was not. 7 Q It was not discussed with you? 8 A No. 9 Q You later learned it was discussed with 10 Mr. Israel? 11 A Yeah. We figured it was the same day he 12 talked to Mike Israel before or after he talked to me. 13 Q You have had chats with Mr. Israel about 14 this issue? 15 A Yes. 16 Q This is a big issue at your agency? 17 A Very big issue at my agency. 18 Q Board of Supervisors have been -- 19 A Whenever there is three or four Board 20 Members involved in something, it's a very big issue. 21 MR. IREY: Any questions? 22 At this point, the Grand Jury Foreman has 23 an admonition for you, Mr. Clark. 24 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. You are admonished not to 25 reveal to any persons except as directed by the Court 380 1 what questions were asked or what responses were given or 2 any other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 3 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 4 appearance before the Grand Jury. 5 This admonition continues unless and until 6 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury's 7 proceedings is made public. Violation of this admonition 8 is punishable as contempt of court. 9 This does not prevent you from discussing 10 the matter with your attorney, if you have an attorney 11 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 12 Grand Jury. 13 And I need you to sign and date that I 14 read that admonition to you. 15 MR. IREY: I do have one last question. 16 Q Mr. Clark, did you and Supervisor 17 Escamilla go over and have coffee and doughnuts with Mr. 18 Womack that day? 19 A No. 20 MR. IREY: Okay. To be continued. 21 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. The Grand Jurors are 22 admonished that they are not to form or express any 23 opinions about this case or discuss it amongst themselves 24 until the Grand Jury receives the case for deliberation. 25 In addition, no inspection of evidence 381 1 should be conducted without the permission of the 2 Foreperson and on the advice of the prosecuting 3 attorney. A violation of this rule could result in a 4 charge of contempt against a Grand Juror who would 5 investigate or view any matters with regard to this case 6 without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 7 We stand in recess until 11:30. Or you 8 want to go ten minutes? 9 MR. IREY: Ten minutes would be great, if we can 10 could. 11 THE FOREPERSON: Is that fine with everybody? 12 Ten minutes. That's 11:25. 13 (Recess taken from 11:12 to 11:25 a.m.) 14 MR. IREY: First witness is Officer Thorton 15 Consolo. 16 THE FOREPERSON: You do solemnly swear that the 17 evidence you shall give in this investigation now pending 18 before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole 19 truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 20 THE WITNESS: I do. 21 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 22 (TIME: 2:33 P.M.) 23 ---oOo--- 24 // 25 // 382 1 THORTON CONSOLO 2 Called as a witness herein by the People, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 4 and testified as follows: 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. IREY: 7 Q Officer Consolo, how do you pronounce your 8 last name? 9 A That's correct. Consolo. 10 Q And you brought a narrative? 11 A Yes, sir. It's a... 12 Q How do you spell your last name for the 13 record? 14 A C-O-N-S-O-L-O. 15 Q And who is your employer? 16 A The City of Jackson. 17 Q And how long have you worked for the City 18 of Jackson as a police officer? 19 A Approximately one year. 20 Q Okay. Were you working in Jackson, 21 California in early May of 1998? 22 A Yes, sir, I was. 23 Q As a regular uniformed police officer? 24 A Yes, sir, I was. 25 Q And were you working traffic enforcement 383 1 on Highway 49? 2 A Yes, sir, I was. 3 Q And was there a construction crew working 4 anywhere along your traffic enforcement area that day? 5 A Yes, sir, there was. 6 Q And where was that construction crew 7 working? 8 A The construction crew was located on the 9 Mason Oil property located at 505 Sutter Street, which 10 Sutter Street, Highway 49 and Highway 88 are all the 11 same. 12 Q This is Grand Jury Exhibit No. 19. 13 Do you recognize that part of Jackson? 14 A Yes, sir, I do. 15 Q And the street that's going up the hill? 16 A That is Rex Avenue. 17 Q And Sutter Street is also Highway 49 and 18 88? 19 A Yes, sir. This picture, I believe, was 20 taken from the parking lot of the Sutter Center. 21 Q And that is the area where the 22 construction crew was the day you were working traffic 23 enforcement? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q You are sure that was Sunday, the 3rd; not 384 1 Saturday, the 2nd? 2 A Well, I actually was working traffic there 3 also on the Saturday, on and off throughout the day. 4 Q And do you remember which of those two 5 days most of the construction was being done? 6 A I spent most of the time there on the 3rd, 7 because we had an abnormally heavy traffic violator level 8 there, due to people attempting to get up to the ski 9 slopes, had heavy snow up in the mountains. So I spent 10 most of the time on Saturday. 11 So most of the construction demolition -- 12 I should say, demolition that I observed was occurring on 13 Sunday. However, there could have been a substantial 14 amount on Saturday that I did not see when I was not 15 there. 16 Q So on Saturday day, people coming up to 17 the slopes and Sunday night coming down? 18 A Actually, I see most of the traffic was 19 day by day. They would go up in the morning on Saturday, 20 come back Saturday night, then go back up on or another 21 group of people would be going up on Sunday morning and 22 coming back Sunday night. 23 Q This narrative that you prepared has a 24 date on it July 15th, 1998. 25 A Yes, sir. 385 1 Q Is that the day you drafted this? 2 A Yes, sir. I drafted that after I was in 3 court in regards to a smoking ordinance violation. And I 4 had overheard that there were questions in regards to the 5 demolition of the facility at 505 Sutter. And knowing 6 that these type of things take time, I drafted that as a 7 note to myself as what had occurred, so that eventually, 8 if there was going to be testimony, it would be helpful 9 for me. 10 Q And you reviewed that today? 11 A Yes, sir, I did. 12 Q And you wrote it two and a half months 13 after it occurred? 14 A That's correct, sir. 15 Q But it's accurate, as best you can recall? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Okay. And down here on Sunday at 8:00 18 a.m., you made contact with a man at the station site? 19 A Yes, sir, I did. 20 Q Do you know who that was? 21 A He identified himself as a man who owned 22 the facility. However, I don't recall his name. 23 Q Was he in his 60s or his 30s? 24 A He was older than the 30s. He identified 25 himself as the owner of the facility. He stated that he 386 1 had purchased the parcel as a -- to help his son, who had 2 the dentistry business in the back. 3 Q Okay. This report is dated July 15th. 4 Have you given this to Ron Hall of the District 5 Attorney's Office? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q This is the first time any member of the 8 District Attorney's Office has seen this document? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Okay. He had helped obtain it to help a 11 family member. Did he tell you who that was? 12 A That's correct. I believe he said it was 13 his son. 14 Q Did he talk about who owned the business 15 that was on the adjacent lot? 16 A He said that his son had the lot that was 17 adjacent to the rear of his. He didn't indicate that he 18 owned it, I believe. He wasn't really specific and I 19 didn't ask. 20 Q Did he point to the dentist's building? 21 A Yes, sir, he did. 22 Q That's the building and lot he was talking 23 about? 24 A He pointed to the dentist's lot and the 25 driveway that runs to the rear of 505 Sutter. 387 1 Q Behind it, there is a little hill and an 2 easement or driveway that runs over to the dental 3 building, correct? 4 A That's right. The dental building gets 5 access from Rex Avenue. 6 Q But on that day, the 3rd of May, you asked 7 about the tank? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Why? 10 A Well, I have experience an as property 11 manager for eight years. I was a property manager for 12 Grand Auto Stores -- 13 Q I am sorry to cut you off. I apologize. 14 I probably needed a little more foundation. 15 Are you POST trained? 16 A Yes, sir, I am. 17 Q How long have you been a peace officer? 18 A I have been a peace officer for ten years. 19 Q All of it in Jackson? 20 A No, sir. One year in Jackson and five 21 years in San Joaquin County as a Sheriff's deputy. 22 Q For Sheriff Dunn? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Okay. 25 A And three years at Alameda County 388 1 Sheriff's Department and one year at Pleasanton Police 2 Department. 3 Q Okay. And so but you have also been a 4 property manager on your free time? 5 A No, sir. I took a brief -- in between 6 Pleasanton Police Department and San Joaquin County 7 Sheriff's Department. I am older than I look. And I 8 worked for approximately eight years as a property 9 manager for Grand Auto Stores. 10 While I was working there, I was 11 responsible for a number of tank removals myself. I 12 removed nine -- nine tanks that were located in three gas 13 stations and did closures there. 14 So I knew -- I was familiar that there was 15 a particular permit process in regards to the tanks. 16 Q You didn't remove that one on East Miner I 17 had all those problems with, did you? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q You are sure? 20 A Positive, sir. 21 Q So you realize there was a permitting 22 process that needed to be gone through? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And you just started talking about the gas 25 tank? 389 1 A Yes, sir. I just asked if it was still 2 there. The -- at the time that I was there, the site was 3 quite a mess. And I had -- I could not tell if the tank 4 had already been removed or if it was still in the 5 ground. I had no idea whether he was planning on closure 6 in place or was going to remove it. So. 7 I just asked him by the by, Well, do you 8 have the gas tank still there? 9 He said, No. It's gone. 10 Q So when you say closure in place, what 11 does that term of art mean to you? 12 A There is a procedure for storage of 13 tanks -- or, at least, there was when I was manager. It 14 may not be the current law now because I haven't been 15 following that. But there is a procedure or was a 16 procedure to where a tank could be sealed and closed in 17 place by the installation of a monitoring well and the 18 cleaning of the interior of the tank and filling it with 19 sand. The tank would then be sealed so that it -- there 20 would be no further pollution or leakage of materials 21 into the soil. 22 Q Cleaned, yes? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Filled with inert material? 25 A Yes. 390 1 Q Tested underneath it? 2 A Yes. 3 Q By angle boring? 4 A By angle boring with monitoring wells. 5 Q If necessary, okay. 6 So you asked him about the tanks. You 7 couldn't tell. There wasn't a big tank pit there Sunday 8 morning? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q It was pretty much -- 11 A It looked pretty level to me. I couldn't 12 tell. The tractor was actually driving over where the 13 tank was located or where he indicated it was located. 14 Q Really? You are positive? 15 A I am pretty sure. 16 Q So he said the tank was here yesterday? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And then the excavator was actually 19 driving over it on Sunday? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 My experience is, when there are tank 22 removals, generally, you uncover the top of the tank, the 23 tank comes out of the ground. Then you have a big hole. 24 And usually, you have a lot of soil beside it from the 25 soil that came out from on top of the tank. 391 1 Then the fire department or environmental 2 officials are supposed to come and take soil samples from 3 the soil to ascertain whether there was leakage at all. 4 Q That site is what? 50 by 40 or so? 60 by 5 40 not a very large parcel. If you know. 6 A It's pretty small, yeah. I would say 7 about that size. 8 Q Okay. And this has been marked Grand Jury 9 Exhibit No. 25. 10 Do you recognize that site? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q And is this a black Eastman Rembrandt? 13 There you go. Rembrandt. 14 If you could mark on here in a circle the 15 approximate area Mr. Womack told you -- 16 A The fuel tank was in? 17 Q I will rephrase that. 18 The person who you met that day told you 19 where the fuel tank was. 20 A He had indicated it was in the -- that 21 would be the southeast corner of the lot. 22 Q Okay. You have just made a seven-sided 23 box. 24 A Well... 25 Q A rectangle. 392 1 Could you initial that, please, and date 2 it. The 13th? 3 A Thank you. 4 Q So the area where you put your boxes and 5 initials and the date is the area where the individuals 6 on site that day said the tank had been? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q And that area was being driven over by the 9 excavator? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 It was my experience that, usually, once 12 the soil is pulled out of the hole, that soil samples 13 were taken, sent off for lab analysis. And generally, 14 the hole could not be refilled or the pile could not be 15 removed until there was a result from the testing labs 16 that said whether the soil would need to be remediated, 17 removed from the site, cleaned in some manner or refilled 18 into the ground. 19 Q Okay. Before I ask you some specifics 20 about that conversation with this individual, do you know 21 that individual to be Mr. Womack or not? 22 A No, sir, I don't. 23 Q Okay. 24 A I am not sure. I don't think I would know 25 Mr. Womack if I saw him. 393 1 Q But he said his son -- or the building 2 adjacent was his -- 3 A Was his building. 4 Q Or his child's? 5 A The building behind 505 Sutter was his 6 son's business. 7 Q You asked about the gas tank; and he said 8 it had been removed? 9 A Correct. 10 Q But there wasn't a big pit? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Then he told you tank had been replaced 13 recently and was in good shape? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q Did he tell you any more about that, how 16 he knew that, where he got the information? 17 A He told me it had been removed. It was 18 relatively new tank because it had been replaced 19 recently. He didn't say when and he said that somebody 20 else was going to use the tank somewhere else. 21 Q He actually told you -- he said it was 22 going to be used somewhere else? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q But he didn't tell you who or -- 25 A That's correct. And I did not ask. 394 1 Q But you asked him if he had all the proper 2 permits? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q Did you give him a list of the types of 5 permits that he might have needed? Or did you say, Do 6 you have all your permits? 7 A No, sir. I asked him if he had all the 8 necessary permits. 9 He said, Yes. I did not ask to see them. 10 Q You said permits, plural? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q And he said yes. And you didn't ask to 13 see the permits? 14 A That's correct. I -- at this time, I am 15 not sure exactly what permits are currently required in 16 this area. And I was not sure when the tank removal took 17 place. He said that it was removed. He didn't say when. 18 The reason I wasn't really concerned with 19 the pile of dirt or it not looking like it was removed 20 is, it may have been removed much earlier. I thought in 21 my mind that it might have been removed months or even 22 years earlier, because I -- in my experience, I have 23 never seen the gas station open. 24 Q And then later, you actually did do some 25 traffic control? 395 1 A Yes, sir, I did. 2 Q And that was in the southbound traffic in 3 the number two lane? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 I noticed these photographs that are 6 before me. They show the trucks being parked on Rex 7 Avenue, which is off Highway 49. 8 Q And those are Grand Jury Exhibits number 9 which and which, sir? 10 A This is Exhibit No. 19 and No. 20. 11 Q Okay. 12 A They indicate that the vehicles or the 13 trucks were not parked on Highway 49, but they were 14 parked on Rex. 15 However, later on -- or I shouldn't say 16 later on, but sometime during this demolition, they 17 had -- their trucks were parked actually on Highway 49, 18 and were in the number two lane. I provided traffic 19 control so that -- I think it was the major portions of 20 the structure that was there were being loaded in the 21 truck. 22 What it is, I blocked off the second lane, 23 the slow lane in the southbound lanes that were 24 immediately adjacent to the property so that debris that 25 they were loading onto the trucks wouldn't fall on the 396 1 traffic. You wouldn't have a collision. 2 Q Those were big chunks of demolition debris 3 that day? 4 A Yes, sir. There were, to my knowledge, 5 substantial chunks of debris being removed on both days, 6 Saturday and Sunday. I seem to remember Saturday was the 7 big day of actually destroying the building. And then 8 the removal of the debris was later. 9 Then also, I think on -- I am not sure, 10 but I believe on Sunday was when they actually moved the 11 tractor from the premises. 12 Q You were present when they were moving 13 that. They had to put that out onto the highway? 14 A Yes, sir. They had a big flatbed tractor 15 trailer. And they loaded it on and he removed from it 16 the site. 17 Q Do you know that individual's name? 18 A No, sir. I recognized that one of the 19 trucks there, I believe, was Mr. Sherrill's, one of Mr. 20 Sherrill's trucks. 21 Q On Sunday? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q And then again Saturday, because of the 24 skiers, you were dealing with mostly speed limit issues? 25 A Yes, sir. 397 1 Q And on Sunday, you had more time and you 2 actually stopped and chatted with the person on site, 3 talked to him about the tanks? 4 A Actually, it was pretty busy there both 5 days. What my practice has been, that I park my squad 6 car on Rex Avenue or in the parking lot of Sutter Center 7 or Deeter Park and attempt to monitor traffic that enters 8 the town from the north side. 9 And as they approach the construction and 10 the flashing lights, there is a big flashing light there 11 for a crosswalk at Sutter Center. And that happens to be 12 exactly right across the street from where the 13 construction is occurring or around it. 14 The -- it was a busy day on Sunday. I 15 can't recall how many citations I wrote, but it had -- a 16 major, major portion of my attention was on the speed 17 violations, rather than the construction. 18 Q Okay. Did you talk to him about where the 19 piping and dispensers went? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q Did you talk to him about where the 22 excavated soil went? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q At that time on Sunday, there was not a 25 excavation permit? I apologize. A excavation pit; not 398 1 permit. 2 A That's correct, sir. I did not see -- I 3 did not see a pit there either day, Saturday or Sunday. 4 I believe -- if there was one on Saturday, I believe I 5 would have seen it also. 6 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions of 7 this officer. If any Member of the Grand Jury has any 8 questions, I would be happy to ask. 9 Q Have you talked to Mr. Womack or anybody 10 about that particular gas station site subsequent to May 11 2nd and 3rd? 12 A No, sir. I believe I talked to a 13 representative from Code of Enforcement on the date that 14 I wrote my narrative. 15 Q City Code Enforcement? 16 A I believe that was County. 17 Q Linda Van Vleck? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q This is a question from a Grand Juror: 20 When you asked the owner if he had the necessary permits, 21 could he have been thinking only demolition permit -- 22 please don't answer this -- and not tank removal 23 permits? Or did you specifically ask about tank removal 24 permits? 25 Now, that question calls kind of for a 399 1 legal conclusion. So I think that this question works: 2 Did you ask him about all necessary permits in general? 3 Yes or no. 4 A At the -- 5 Q If you can answer yes or no. 6 A Repeat the question, please. 7 Q I will ask two questions. First question 8 is, Did you specifically ask him about tank removal 9 permits? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you ask him about all necessary 12 permits? 13 A Yes. At the point when I asked him about 14 the permits was when I asked him about the tank. I 15 didn't actually ask him about any demolition permits. 16 But I asked him about the gas tank, where the gas tank 17 had gone. And that's when I asked him if he had all the 18 necessary permits. 19 Q Okay. When did you get off work on both 20 Saturday and Sunday? 21 A I believe it was 1500 hours, 3:00 in the 22 afternoon. 23 Q Ten-hour shifts or eight? 24 A Currently, we are on twelve-hour shifts 25 and we work six to six. At that time, we were working 400 1 eight-hour shifts. I worked from 8:00 in the morning 2 until 3:00 p.m. in the afternoon. 3 Q Okay. Was anybody else on site when you 4 were there that day? 5 A There was a man who was operating the 6 tractor. And that was the only person that I saw. 7 Q And then there were trucks that were being 8 loaded? 9 A There was -- there were trucks that were 10 coming and going with -- I don't know if it was the same 11 driver or individuals because I didn't talk to the truck 12 drivers. 13 Q Do you know whether they were going south 14 on 88 or north on 88? 15 A I can't be sure, but I think they were 16 going northbound. 17 Q And that demolition debris included 18 concrete? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Conduit? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Re-bar? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q All the soil from the site, soil from the 25 site? 401 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q And then, but you never -- even at the end 3 of the day, you didn't see them overexcavate to form a 4 pit? 5 A Correct. 6 MR. IREY: Any other questions of the Grand 7 Jurors. 8 Q Did you see Mr. Womack drive any trucks. 9 I can rephrase that. Did you see the 10 individual you talked to on Sunday drive any trucks on 11 Saturday or Sunday? 12 A No. 13 Q Did you see someone taping the demolition 14 or taking pictures? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Neither day? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q Nobody with a video camera? 19 A I had seen some people walking by or who 20 were passer-bys. There were some people across the 21 street by the Sutter Center that -- that may have been 22 taking pictures. But I didn't specifically see them 23 taking pictures. 24 Q And why do you say that they may have been 25 taking pictures? 402 1 A Because they stopped. It looked like they 2 were talking, and they had -- I don't know if it was 3 equipment with them or bags, like they were carrying, 4 like, a satchel. Might have been a video camera. I 5 didn't specifically see anybody taking pictures. 6 Q On both Saturday and Sunday? 7 A Yeah, on both days. It was kind of a 8 spectacle. We had people coming by. They would stop 9 their cars, look and leave. I think it was kind of a 10 surprise to a lot of people in the area. 11 Whenever we have any kind of construction 12 or excitement on the side of the road, people like to 13 stop and find out what's going on. 14 Q If you asked all of these questions on 15 Sunday, you didn't see the tank come out on Saturday? 16 A That's correct. 17 MR. IREY: Any other questions? Okay. 18 The Grand Jury Foreman has an admonition 19 for you, Officer. And thank you very much. 20 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 21 to any person except as directed by the Court what 22 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 23 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 24 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 25 appearance before the Grand Jury. 403 1 This admonition continues unless and until 2 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 3 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 4 punishable as contempt of Court. 5 This does not prevent you from discussing 6 the matter with your attorney, if you have an attorney 7 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 8 Grand Jury. 9 Sir, if I can get you to sign and date 10 that I read that to you? Thank you very much. 11 MR. IREY: Larry White. 12 THE FOREPERSON: Raise your right hand, please. 13 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 14 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 15 this Grand Jury will be the truth, the whole truth and 16 nothing but the, truth so help you God. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 18 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 19 20 (TIME NOTED: 11:48 A.M.) 21 ---oOo--- 22 LARRY WHITE 23 Called as a witness herein by the People, 24 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 25 and testified as follows: 404 1 2 EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. IREY. 4 Q Mr. White, I won't ask you to spell your 5 last name. 6 Who is your employer? 7 A The City of Jackson. 8 Q Prior to that, were you a consultant? 9 A Self-employed consultant with the City. 10 Q And part of that job included the Raley's 11 Shopping Center in town? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And prior to that? 14 A Self-employed design draftsperson. And 15 prior to that, the County of Amador as a building 16 inspector. 17 Q And your background that led you into this 18 occupation? Were you -- okay. Rephrase it. 19 Were you in the construction industry? Or 20 did you go to school to be a draftsman? 21 A Construction industry. Previously worked 22 with PG&E, construction of Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power 23 Plant in quality control, QA. And military experience 24 before that, training to get into the nuclear business. 25 And after transferring up to Rancho Seco 405 1 and the plant closing, went to Delta College to transfer 2 to standard type of construction, residential and 3 commercial. 4 Q Okay. So you were a nuke? 5 A Yes. 6 Q On a sub? 7 A Pardon? 8 Q On a submarine? 9 A No. Minuteman missiles. 10 Q And Diablo? 11 A Diablo Canyon. 12 Q And Rancho Seco? 13 A Rancho Seco. 14 Q And now you are a fulltime City of Jackson 15 building inspector? 16 A Actually, starts on the 30th of the month. 17 Yes, I am still. 18 Q You are working full time right now? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you know Mr. Robert Womack? 21 A I have had the occasion to meet him, yes. 22 Q And the first time you met him, can you 23 briefly describe that to Members of the Grand Jury. 24 A The first time I met Mr. Womack? 25 Q That would be good. 406 1 A The first time I met Mr. Womack, I had the 2 opportunity to meet him actually when I was a county 3 building inspector, when they did the remodeling of the 4 old house to become a dental clinic. 5 Q Okay. And could you describe to the jury 6 that meeting, the purpose of your meeting. 7 A The purpose of the meeting was, he was 8 submitting plans and specs and obtaining building permits 9 to do remodeling of the building. 10 Q Before or after he began working on the 11 building? 12 A After he began working on the building. 13 After the building site had been given a stop work order 14 by the County. 15 Q Okay. And after that, what was the next 16 occasion you met him? 17 A Just briefly different times, I would see 18 him around town. 19 Then the next occasion I had to meet with 20 him on a professional business matter was September 2nd. 21 Q Of this year? 22 A Of this year, at the City Building 23 Department at the counter. 24 Q And Mr. Womack came in? 25 A Yes. 407 1 Q Members of the Grand Jury yesterday heard 2 a tape. Could you tell the members of the Grand Jury 3 about how you learned of that tape? 4 A Mr. Womack had come into the Building 5 Department at the counter, the City Hall, requesting 6 information in regards to the demolition of the gas 7 station at 505 Sutter Street. 8 And during the course of the conversation 9 with Mr. Womack, he leaned on a counter. And I happened 10 to notice that he had a tape recorder in his top pocket. 11 I noticed the little red light flashing, which made me be 12 aware that he had -- was taping my conversation with him. 13 At which point, I left the counter, went 14 back to the back office. I told him that I was going to 15 go back and further research the permit in the file. And 16 I went to the back office. I called the secretary, 17 Sherry Martin, to come back to the back so I could notify 18 her that I identified what I believed to be a tape 19 recorder in his pocket. And I suggested that she be 20 careful what she had to say. 21 At which point, I called the City Manager, 22 John Brown. 23 Q You can't tell the Grand Jury the 24 specifics of your conversation with Mr. Brown. 25 You could tell the Grand Jury what you 408 1 asked Mr. Brown, and then say, and then he responded; 2 and what you asked Mr. Brown and he responded. You could 3 go through it like that. You can't put the hearsay in, 4 Mr. Brown told me X. But just go through the steps, 5 please. 6 A Okay. I hope I don't -- 7 Q I can make a motion to strike. 8 A Okay. I called Mr. Brown on the 9 inter-office, because he was behind a closed door meeting 10 and I was in the back. So I called him and I told him 11 that Mr. Womack was at the counter trying to get 12 information, and I identified what I believed to be a 13 tape recorder in his pocket. 14 I was directed to give Mr. Womack a 15 request for information sheet and tell him that we would 16 have to research the information he was requesting and 17 ask him to leave the building. At which point, that's 18 what I did. 19 Q And was it your impression on speaking 20 with the City attorney -- 21 A City manager. 22 Q -- City manager that he wasn't very happy 23 with Mr. Womack? 24 A Oh, no. Not very happy at all. 25 Q Prior to noticing the tape recorder in Mr. 409 1 Womack's pocket, did Mr. Womack ask you if he could tape 2 it? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you hear him ask anybody else if he 5 could tape it? 6 A No. 7 Q Would you have given him permission to 8 tape it, if you know? 9 A I would -- I would have told him I would 10 probably have had to get permission or direction from the 11 City Attorney for something like that. 12 Q Again, the Grand Jury heard the tape 13 yesterday. In essence, what type of information was he 14 seeking from you? 15 A What I interpreted it was, he was trying 16 to obtain information that the City had given him 17 permission to proceed with the work that he had done at 18 the site. 19 Q Including removal of the underground 20 tanks? 21 A Including the removal of the underground 22 tanks, yes. 23 Q Did you look through the file? 24 A Yes, I did. 25 Q Did you bring the original file with you 410 1 today? 2 A Yes, I did. 3 Q Did you make a copy of it before you 4 brought it here today? 5 A I hope I did. 6 Q I haven't seen the original file; is that 7 correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Is anything in this file -- 10 A This is what we call the street file. 11 This would be anything that has ever been done at 505 12 Sutter Street would have this information. We have one 13 for every address in town, unless, of course, it's 14 something way old and hasn't had any current -- 15 Q Residential and commercial? 16 A Residential and commercial, yes. 17 Q Okay. So this is called the street file? 18 A This is the street file. 19 And this is the building permit file. 20 Q Okay. And a building permit file is in 21 addition to the street file? Does the street file -- 22 A Copies of this are in there. 23 Q Okay. So this has everything in it? 24 A Every action taken, whether it be by the 25 Building Department, Public Works, any action that is 411 1 taken for that site. 2 Q Okay. And the permit file, each time you 3 get a new permit, do you get a new permit file? 4 A Yes. 5 Q So if -- 6 A They are sequentially numbered. 7 Q So what does 4171 mean? 8 A That's Permit No. 4171. It's the 4,171st 9 permit issued by the City since they had a building 10 department. 11 Q What was that permit for? 12 A This permit was originally issued for 13 demolition for 505 Sutter Street. 14 Q Demolition only? 15 A Yes. Per the building permit, itself, 16 which is in here, a copy of it. Building permits coming 17 in four copies, there is a white copy that is the 18 original. That goes to the owner or the contractor. 19 Then there is the green that goes into this file. 20 You will notice, in the street file, there 21 is a yellow copy. And then -- wait. There, street file. 22 Pink copy goes into the book that we retain. And the 23 gold copy goes to the County Assessor. 24 Q I noticed, top right-hand corner, that 25 permit number marches the -- 412 1 A Jacket. 2 Q It's 4171? 3 A Yes. Removal of old service station. 4 Q Applicant was whom? 5 A Applicant was Roland Womack. 6 Q Do you know if Roland Womack is the same 7 person as Robert Womack? 8 A I know they are not. 9 Q Who is Roland Womack? 10 A Roland Womack is the son of Robert 11 Womack. I know that for a couple reasons. 12 Q And who is the building contractor? 13 A According to this, was with Wolin and 14 Sons. 15 Q Did you later learn the building 16 contractor was not Wolin and Sons? 17 A I was told, according to the application 18 that it was originally done here as owner builder, which 19 was saying Roland Womack was responsible for it and he 20 was subbing to whoever he wanted to. 21 Q And then on there, there is a demolition 22 value? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And that's calculated how? 25 A Well, usually on demolitions, what we do 413 1 is that the -- we basically take their word. They tell 2 us what the valuation of the removal is. In this case, 3 it's $1,000. If you look back in here, there is what we 4 call the application. That was originally done. It was 5 originally, the valuation was junk. But in order to put 6 a fee -- because the building department, in order to put 7 a fee against it, the ordinance states that we charge $40 8 plus 4 percent of the valuation. 9 Q Okay. 10 A So then there was $1,000 put in, which was 11 $40, plus 4 percent of 40, gave total permit fee of $80. 12 Q So the permit application occurs before 13 the permit is issued? 14 A Correct. This is filled out by the 15 applicant at the counter. 16 Q Okay. And the applicant's name on here? 17 A Roland Womack. 18 Q And the date of the permit? 19 A 5/1/98. 20 Q That was a Friday, if you know? 21 A I believe so. 22 Q And parcel number? 23 A 20-161-003, which correlates to 505 Sutter 24 Street. 25 Q The owner is listed as whom? 414 1 A The owner is listed as Roland Womack. 2 16001 Highway 88. 3 Q Okay. We have been asking questions 4 regarding the original -- what did you call this? 5 Building permit file? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Now we are going to mark it as an 8 exhibit. And if you didn't make a complete copy of this, 9 please let us know, and the Grand Jury Foreman will make 10 a copy of this available to you at this time. 11 A Okay. I believe the copies I made are in 12 the file. 13 Q Okay. Half in this file and half in -- 14 A Right. If you look to the back of this 15 file here, paper-clipped together. 16 Q Okay. If you could go ahead and remove 17 the copies you made today and keep those. 18 A Okay. There is a couple of items that are 19 in this file that I did not make copies of. 20 Q We will be able to work with that. 21 A Yeah. Well, one is my subpoena. 22 Q You can keep that. 23 A Because I figured you knew I had that. 24 And this one is the -- the thing from the 25 State. It's quite a thick packet on his -- the approved 415 1 work plan for the soil remediation. 2 Q Okay. We won't lose that. Maybe can you 3 get a copy of that from Mr. Fourt? 4 A Right. 5 Q Okay. And so did you later learn that 6 Roland Womack was not the owner of the property? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What did you do about Mister -- were there 9 other issues regarding the demolition permit? 10 A Well, there were a couple things. The -- 11 the first thing that I discovered about the permit in 12 researching it was that there had been no inspections 13 performed. 14 Basically, what happens with a building 15 permit is, we issue the permit. Then it is the 16 responsibility of the permit holder, which would be the 17 owner of the property or the listed owner of the 18 property, and it is their responsibility to contact the 19 Building Department to have the required inspections 20 performed. 21 On a demolition, the required inspections, 22 the initial required inspections, are to verify that all 23 utilities are removed for safety, make sure that the 24 electricity has been terminated, gas lines, sewer has 25 been plugged, water lines have been capped off. And that 416 1 if there is any other applicable agencies that are 2 required to be coordinated with, that they have all been 3 notified and proper clearances have been provided. 4 You are going to find several things in 5 there that I did not make copies of. I misunderstood the 6 direction on that. 7 Q That's okay. Okay. 8 So were any of those inspections done? 9 A No. No inspections were performed at all 10 on the site until after the fact. 11 Q Okay. Then after the fact, it's a little 12 difficult to inspect? 13 A To verify, right. 14 Well, actually, the inspections that were 15 performed after the fact did not pertain to this 16 particular permit. Because this permit, once I 17 identified the fact that Mr. Womack was not the owner of 18 the property, the further direction of the City Manager, 19 this permit was revoked, because it was technically 20 issued in error. 21 Q And what were the errors? 22 A The errors were the fact that Mr. Womack 23 was not the owner of the property; as far as I know, is 24 still not the owner of the property. 25 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 417 1 No. 27. The top is an inspection record. Do you 2 recognize this blow-up? 3 A Yes, there is our inspection record card 4 that is issued when this permit is issued. 5 Q This permit being 4171? 6 A Any permit. But this particular permit -- 7 when this permit, when the original copy is given to the 8 owner, this inspection record card is also given to the 9 owner. And this is to be posted on site. 10 Q Just like any normal building permit when 11 you build a house, inspector, date, okay? 12 A Right. The only difference on building a 13 house, there would be construction drawings that would be 14 attached also. 15 Q That is what is given to a person who gets 16 a demolition permit? 17 A Correct. 18 Q That lists Roland Womack as the owner? 19 A Correct. 20 Q On there or anywhere in your file does it 21 say permitted to pull underground storage tank? 22 A No. 23 Q Back in '88, you did issue parallel 24 permits; is that correct? 25 A The City. 418 1 Q So you get a County permit and you get a 2 City permit for underground storage tank removal? 3 A Right. You will see in here, there is a 4 thing '88, that -- I believe it was like on July 19th, 5 there is a permit here that is issued by the County for 6 the removal and replacement of underground storage tanks. 7 And then on -- 8 Q July 19th of what year? 9 A 1988. 10 Q Okay. So in 1988, in your file, there was 11 a permit from the county? 12 A From the County, correct. And then on 13 July 21st, there is a permit from the City issued for 14 removal of the old gas tanks and install the new tanks. 15 And what this -- it's kind of a joint work 16 thing, because we would be inspecting footings, 17 foundations, concrete steel placement, the way the tank 18 would be secured and any electrical that would be run or 19 plumbing that was run to the tank. 20 Q So you are electrical, plumbing and 21 structure? 22 A Foundation, correct. 23 Q And environmental health is? 24 A Is responsible for the tank. 25 Q Tank and contamination and those things? 419 1 A Correct. And soils. 2 Q That's the way -- when you worked for the 3 County, that's the way it was? 4 A Yes. 5 Q That's the way it was when you were out in 6 private practice? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And that's the way it is today? 9 A Correct. 10 Q You pull tanks when you worked for the 11 nuclear power plants? 12 A No. 13 Q So you pulled this demolition permit, 14 correct? 15 A Correct? Say again? 16 Q You did pull the demolition permit? 17 A I pulled it out, yes. 18 Q And did you let Mr. Womack know there was 19 no longer a valid demolition permit at that location? 20 A No. Because when Mr. Womack was in 21 after -- at that time, I had not found this file. It was 22 part of the thing. And so when I gave him the request 23 for information, and then he came back later to get the 24 things. 25 Q At that point, did you make him a copy of 420 1 the county permit? 2 A No. I don't -- I don't -- well, I did not 3 make the copies of the permits for him at that time. We 4 gave him the request for information. He came back in 5 later that afternoon and got information from Sherry. 6 Q Okay. And did he ask just for the City 7 permits? Or do you recall? 8 A His request for information, I believe, 9 was for any and all information in the file. Because he 10 also wanted copies of these permits that were issued in 11 '88. 12 Q This is an information records request 13 that was in Grand Jury Exhibit No. 28. Do you recognize 14 that? 15 A Yes. That's the form that I gave him and 16 he filled that out. 17 Q Anything in the file regarding service 18 station permits? 19 A Correct. 20 Q You don't know one way or the other what 21 he was actually given by Sherry? 22 A Martin. 23 Q Martin? 24 A Yeah, I believe she did it. At that time, 25 I was just working part-time. 421 1 Q You don't know whether she gave him the 2 County permit and the City permit? 3 A No. 4 Q Okay. You have had other recent issues 5 with Mr. Womack; is that correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And those are related to the same address? 8 A Yes. They pertain to, we received a 9 complaint in regards to the structural integrity of the 10 retaining wall that is supporting the upper driveway. 11 So at which time, I notified the City 12 engineer. The City engineer went out and did an 13 evaluation. And we notified the owner that they needed 14 to have their own independent engineer evaluate the 15 integrity of the wall because there was some concern of 16 whether or not the wall would slide down off the hill 17 because it appeared that it no longer had the proper 18 bearing. 19 So that was the next time when I referred 20 to earlier that I had done another site inspection. I 21 went back out to do a site inspection at that time to 22 take a look at the wall, try and check it out. 23 Q Okay. Just for record-keeping, Mr. White, 24 the original file that you brought in has been marked 25 Grand Jury Exhibit 28, correct? 422 1 A Street file, correct. 2 Q You pulled out the copies you made, 3 correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q In my hand, I have three or four 6 documents. And for the record, I am going to give those 7 back to you. And you can keep those somewhere. 8 A Okay. 9 Q And one of the reasons is, the Grand Jury 10 specifically is not supposed to have a couple of these 11 documents. Okay? 12 A Okay. 13 Q So this is your subpoena? 14 A Okay. 15 Q This is an article from a newspaper? 16 A Okay. 17 Q We can leave this in. This is basically 18 my card and some notes. 19 A From Bob Fourt. 20 Q And this is another article out of the 21 newspaper. Okay? 22 A Okay. 23 Q So this is the complete street file? 24 A Correct. In that file, you will also see 25 there is some -- the correspondence in relation to the 423 1 posting of the site for the wall and the removal of the 2 wall and the evaluations by his engineer. 3 Q The originals? 4 A Correct. 5 Q I am going to paper clip to the front of 6 this Grand Jury Exhibit No. 28 a document. This came 7 from the City of Jackson files, correct? Street file? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What is this document? 10 A This is the County Health permit dated 11 July 19th, 1988 for the removal and replacement of the 12 underground storage tanks. 13 Q So in the City file was the County permit, 14 correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q County permit and City permit both 17 required? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And you already explained why? 20 A Yes. 21 Q County permit and City permit both would 22 have been required on this site, too? 23 A Correct. 24 Q Demolition permit and removal permit? 25 A Correct. 424 1 Q If they were putting in new tanks, then 2 they would have needed to get City permit for plumbing, 3 electrical and structural? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And they would have needed a County permit 6 for the installation of the tank and the piping? 7 A Correct. 8 Q It's been that way for years? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Mr. Mason did it that way in 1988? 11 A Yes. 12 Q City of Jackson did not give Mr. Womack or 13 any mention on Mr. Womack's permit to pull the 14 underground storage tanks; is that correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Did they give Mr. Mason a permit to pull 17 the underground storage tanks? 18 A No. There was no permit issued from the 19 City for removal of underground storage tanks. 20 Q What about removal of soil? 21 A No. 22 Q Is that in the City's jurisdiction? 23 A No. 24 Q Would an excavation permit take a City 25 permit and County permit? Or do you know? 425 1 A On a site that has underground storage 2 tanks, it would take both. 3 Q Okay. And the replacement of fill 4 material, is that part of the engineering before a 5 building is built? Or is that at the time of the fill 6 brought in? 7 A Say -- 8 Q If you bring in 100 tons of rock, does the 9 City need to know about it? 10 A Yes. 11 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 12 White. If any Members of the Grand Jury have any 13 questions for Mr. White at this time, I would be happy to 14 ask them. 15 THE WITNESS: May I ask a question? 16 MR. IREY: Probably not. But I could ask a 17 generic question. 18 Q Mr. White, is there any other information 19 that you think would be helpful to the Grand Jury in 20 making their determination about if any violations of the 21 law occurred at 505 Sutter Street or subsequent regarding 22 handling of materials from 505 Sutter Street? 23 A That's a lot further than I went. 24 I wanted to make sure we are going to get 25 the original files back. 426 1 Q After the Grand Jury has completed their 2 task, then the original files will eventually come back 3 to the City of Jackson. 4 A Okay. 5 Q The Grand Jury Foreman can make copies 6 available of stuff you have not copied. 7 A I am not too concerned about the copies at 8 this time, because basically, what I am going to do is go 9 back and create a new file to put these copies in. I 10 wanted to make sure this stuff does come back. You know, 11 being a new employee and all. 12 Q I will let you know that almost always the 13 files come back early. But I do have a case where they 14 were missing -- I still have them two years later. 15 A Okay. I hope to be there in a couple 16 years. We can deal with that. 17 The only other thing I would mention in 18 regards to the site and just a little bit in regards to 19 the citizen complaint and the subsequent posting, we had 20 barricaded the site and the removal of the thing. There 21 was some misinformation that was given by Mr. Womack in 22 regards to that, because -- can you I show this photo up? 23 Q Absolutely, if it has a Grand Jury exhibit 24 tag on it. 25 A Sure, it does. 427 1 Q What number? 2 A No. 20. 3 Just for your information, what we are 4 referring to is this wall here. It's supporting the 5 upper driveway. 6 Q When you pointed to "this wall here," you 7 are -- the wall that actually goes across which is soil 8 or the actual physical masonry structure? 9 A The masonry wall, okay. That's going here. 10 THE FOREPERSON: Cinderblock. 11 THE WITNESS: The cinderblock wall that still 12 remains. You see there is soil and another wall here. 13 When we first posted the site, Mr. Womack 14 came in and he told me -- he was quite rough and upset 15 that we were picking on him. 16 Q BY MR. IREY: Cursing? 17 A Oh, yes. 18 And he was telling me the only thing they 19 had done was just scraped the top of the soil and removed 20 the grass and debris, just to clean the site up. 21 And when I did some research in the file, 22 that's when I found the permit and stuff in relation to 23 the installation of this new wall that showed this lower 24 wall. 25 Q This photo, Grand Jury Exhibit No. 24. Is 428 1 the wall missing in this photo? 2 A Correct. 3 Q The wall was there during the demolition 4 and missing after the demolition? 5 A Correct. That's what Mr. Womack was 6 telling me, that all they had done was remove the brush 7 off. That's when I went back out, and I noticed this 8 wall, this lower wall, was broke off at the north and 9 south ends and the wall had been removed. 10 And that's what prompted us a little bit 11 more to be concerned. Because this wall was holding this 12 soil which was holding the footing for this wall. 13 Q Which was holding whatever was adjacent? 14 A Correct. The adjacent property. 15 Q So you try not to take the brick out of 16 the bottom of the entire hill? 17 A Right. So that's what this wall was 18 helping to do. It's like a step kind of thing in 19 terracing, basically, is what it is. Because they have 20 soil off the base of the footing at 45 degree angle, 21 roughly. That has been undermined in this photo. 22 That's why we received a citizen 23 complaint. That's why we posted the site at that point 24 in time, prevented Mr. Womack from parking on it. But he 25 was emphatic they didn't do anything. 429 1 And then when I realized this, his 2 engineer, Mr. Carstensen that -- he had evaluated the 3 site the first time. I notified Mr. Carstensen that the 4 wall had been removed because I found out all this 5 information that it had been removed. 6 Q You had actually reviewed the video the 7 District Attorney's Office showed you? 8 A Correct. 9 Q You came to the District Attorney's Office 10 and said -- 11 A Can I see the tape of what happened at the 12 demolition? Because my records indicate there was a 13 wall. Mr. Womack told me there was no wall. I wanted 14 just to kind of know for my own records what is right and 15 what is not right. 16 And then after notifying Mr. Carstensen of 17 this information, I believe that was on a Friday. The 18 following Monday, Mr. Womack came back in, still a little 19 gruff and feeling that he had been being picked on. He 20 apologized to me that he misunderstood when he told me 21 they had only just removed the soil. 22 Q Okay. Do you research ownership of 23 property listed on permit before or after issuing? And 24 that's a general question. 25 A The standard practice is that we check the 430 1 records. We have a printout from the County Assessor's 2 Office that tells us who is the legal owner and what the 3 Assessor's parcel number, the size of the lot and all 4 that. That is done when we receive the application. 5 Q Supposed to be done or is always done? 6 A It's supposed to be done. 7 Q After lunch, Mr. Rouse will be here. 8 A You guys will understand that. You will 9 understand why I am there now, because of his health. 10 Q When did you revoke the original permit? 11 I believe I mean the demolition permit. 12 A The demolition permit was revoked on 13 September 2nd. Yes, September 2nd, 1998. Once it 14 became -- once I was aware that it was issued improperly 15 and I discussed it with Mr. Brown, we revoked that 16 permit. 17 Q This is a parallel question to my last 18 one. 19 When someone asks you for a permit from 20 your agency, do you ask for ID to verify the name of the 21 owner, the real owner? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you normally issue demolition permits 24 to people who don't own buildings? 25 A No. Well, step back. A licensed 431 1 contractor. We are allowed to issue permits to legal 2 owner of the property, a designated representative that's 3 designated by the legal owner of the property or a 4 licensed contractor. That's what the State law allows to 5 us do. 6 So, like, if you want to get a permit for 7 somebody's property and you brought in a statement from 8 that -- signed statement from that person authorizing 9 you, I could issue it to you. 10 Other than that, no. 11 Q Was that in the file? 12 A No. 13 Q Is that one of the reasons you revoked the 14 permit? 15 A Yes. 16 Q I think there is a note. I will ask you 17 the question, then I will ask the foreman if he had a 18 second question. 19 Was property depth increased by removing 20 the lower wall? 21 THE FOREPERSON: That was a note. Sorry. 22 Q BY MR. IREY: Was property depth increased 23 by removing the lower wall? 24 A I believe so, yes. 25 Q And the depth being distance from the 432 1 highway? 2 A Edge of curb back, right. 3 Q How far? 4 A We would consider property -- we consider 5 property basically from edge of the curb back. Roughly 6 two to three feet. 7 But not knowing the exact location of 8 where this wall is, we are just kind of looking at that. 9 But it did enough to where it undermined the wall, so 10 there is no longer a 45. 11 MR. IREY: Any other questions of Grand Jurors. 12 Q So before undermining the wall, they 13 would have needed a permit, correct? 14 A Before removing the wall, they would have 15 needed a permit to remove that wall. 16 Q And they would have had to have engineer 17 diagrams for structural integrity and all of those 18 things? 19 A Correct. 20 Q If you know, was the tank at the northeast 21 corner of the property removed? 22 I am going to show you a drawing from 23 1988, the northeast being -- 24 A I have no knowledge of. 25 Q You have no knowledge. Because your 433 1 department doesn't deal with underground storage tanks? 2 A That's part of the reason, yes. 3 Q And you weren't working in 1988 for the 4 County? 5 A I was working in 1988. I didn't have 6 anything to do with that. I was not on site for the 7 removal of this tank. We remove the tank -- in 8 conjunction with that, we would be doing inspections at 9 the same time. 10 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions by any 11 members of the Grand Jury? 12 At this time, Mr. White, the Foreman has 13 an admonition for you. And there is a slight chance, 14 based on future testimony, that we might call you back. 15 I just wanted you to know that. 16 THE WITNESS: That's fine. You know where to get 17 me. 18 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 19 to any person except as directed by the Court what 20 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 21 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 22 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 23 appearance before the Grand Jury. 24 This admonition continues unless and until 25 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 434 1 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 2 punishable as contempt of court. 3 This does not prevent you from discussing 4 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 5 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 6 Grand Jury. 7 Mr. White, I will get you to sign and date 8 that I read you that, please. 9 MR. IREY: Mr. Foreman, if I could ask -- George 10 Ryan is here and has been here since 11:30. If we could 11 try to go 12 minutes, to 12:35, and see if we can get 12 through most of what he has to say, that would be 13 helpful. 14 Up to the Members of the Grand Jury. 15 THE FOREPERSON: Everybody in favor of that? 16 Okay. 17 MR. IREY: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. 18 White. 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 20 THE COURT: Do we need to reswear him in? 21 MR. IREY: Please. No. Remind him he is still 22 under oath. 23 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Ryan, I remind you, you are 24 still under oath from the swearing this morning. 25 (TIME NOTED: 12:22 P.M.) 435 1 ---oOo--- 2 GEORGE RYAN 3 Recalled as a witness herein by the People, 4 having been previously duly sworn to tell the truth, 5 resumed the stand and was examined and testified as 6 follows: 7 CONTINUED EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. IREY: 9 Q Mr. Ryan, can we swap files. I will give 10 you the original Grand Jury Exhibit 18 back, and I will 11 take the copy. 12 Mr. Ryan, you went back and did a little 13 bit of research at your office? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And I think that you wanted to give a two 16 or three-minute narrative at this point to the Members of 17 the Grand Jury to clarify or at least smooth out your 18 earlier testimony? 19 A That's correct, if I could. 20 This file was originally opened as a 21 purchase. The original purchaser was to be KRL 22 Partnership. Not long after it was opened, the original 23 purchaser was changed to be Roland and Nadine Womack as 24 their individual property. 25 This purchase was never consummated. 436 1 There was a contract that the seller had to fulfill 2 certain obligations. And it had to be closed in a 3 certain length of time because of this money judgment 4 which we talked about earlier. 5 And that could not be done within that 6 time. 7 Q And for clarification, you can't discuss 8 the specifics of that contract because at that time, you 9 were acting as attorney for Roland and Nadine Womack? 10 A That's correct. That's correct. 11 Q Thank you. 12 A And so Roland and Nadine agreed to lend 13 Mr. Mason money that they were going to purchase his 14 property with for a certain length of time in order that 15 he have time to fulfill contract obligations so they 16 could come back and buy the property. 17 There was a problem earlier when we talked 18 about dates. And I apologize. I should have been more 19 familiar with the file; and also, the escrow officer 20 should have noted that the original date of April 29th 21 must have been extended. 22 I tried to call when I left the bank 23 person, who is no longer at that bank. But we have a 24 satisfaction of judgment in file, which I didn't find 25 earlier, which satisfies that judgment that was issued on 437 1 5/29/98. The checks, as shown by the disbursement, and 2 those dates are correct. 3 Mr. Irey told you earlier that I had 4 remembered talking to the bank person and he was not 5 willing to extend the deadline for payment. And that 6 would make sense, because apparently he had already 7 extended it 30 days to the 29th of May. And he was 8 unwilling then to extend it another day. 9 The checks that came in were -- the dates 10 on the checks are correct. There is in the file an 11 acknowledgment of satisfaction of judgment. 12 Just for interest, I also testified 13 earlier that there is a recon to come. That reconveyance 14 is simply a cleaning up procedure. This is unusual to 15 have a foreclosure started and then it go to court 16 judgment. That's what happened here on the note. So 17 they got a money judgment and did not foreclose on the 18 deed of trust. 19 When the money judgment is satisfied, you 20 record a satisfaction of judgment, which we have. But in 21 order to make the record clear, then you should remove 22 the original deed of trust also. That's where there was 23 a reconveyance to come. If that makes sense. 24 Q Mr. Ryan, I notice about halfway through 25 the package, that is marked official note vesting here 438 1 only for lender's policy, to be corrected later. 2 A Mm-hmm. 3 Q About midway through the packet are 4 partnership documents, but they appear to have an escrow 5 stamp on them. 6 A Okay. 7 Q So although you prepared those as the 8 attorney for KRL, are you comfortable having those in 9 this file at this time, because they are now part of the 10 escrow file? 11 A Mmmm... Frankly -- 12 Q Statement of partnership? 13 A Frankly, those documents are of record. 14 Q Okay. I just wanted to be sure because of 15 your attorney client privilege. 16 A Thank you. 17 Q Okay. And so May 29th, $80,000 goes back 18 East. The lien is taken off the property. This was a 19 month after the gas station had been torn down, correct? 20 A I honestly don't know the date the gas 21 station was torn down. This was done on the 29th of 22 May. I don't know -- I don't recall the date that the... 23 Q Okay. And any conversations you had with 24 Mr. Womack regarding contamination, if you had any, those 25 would have been protected by attorney-client privilege? 439 1 A That's correct. 2 Q However, as part of the escrow agreement, 3 you had a conversation with Mr. Mason; is that correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And Mr. Mason told you about the health 6 and cleanliness of his property; is that correct? 7 A He came into the title company and 8 mentioned -- whenever you are dealing with a service 9 station, you need to be concerned about environmental 10 problems. And he said there weren't any on the property. 11 Q So Mr. David Mason, III told you in your 12 escrow office that there weren't any environmental 13 problems on the property? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Okay. Did he go into anything more 16 specific than that? 17 A No. 18 Q And later, Mr. Mason indicated his loan. 19 You weren't his attorney on the loan, were you? 20 A No. 21 Q He told you that his bulk plant in Martell 22 had no problems also? 23 A Oh, I am sorry. The loan you are talking 24 about is this one here? 25 Q Correct. 440 1 A No. I was Roland and Nadine's attorney on 2 that. 3 Q So probably you shouldn't waive your 4 privilege there either? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Okay. So Mason came in, told you property 7 was clean. The escrow went forward to a point. And the 8 sale has not been completed to this date; is that 9 correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q So the person that owns the property to 12 this date is? 13 A David Mason. I have the -- it's -- the 14 vesting on the title as of the date of the policy was May 15 29th, 1998, was David S. Mason, III, Miriam S. Mason, 16 husband and wife, and David S. Mason, Trustee of Mason 17 Revokable Living Trust. 18 Q Do you know anything about that revokable 19 living trust? 20 A No. 21 Q Is it possible that an escrow could be set 22 up by some other title company? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Or there must be rules against that? Or 25 is it possible? 441 1 A Another title company would not do an 2 escrow knowing there is one pending some other place. 3 Between the last time that we looked at this property was 4 May -- May 29th, when this loan closed. That doesn't 5 mean to say that between May 29th and today somebody 6 could have opened an escrow in another title company and 7 the property could be in someone else's hands. I 8 couldn't know that. 9 Q Okay. We are trying to get the Grand 10 Jurors out in five minutes. We may have to call you back 11 another time. We are trying to finish. 12 This question, I am going to ask for a 13 narrative. I am going to waive any objection, because I 14 get to play the Judge also. 15 You were present at a meeting on September 16 2nd, 1998, correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Could you go into the items that were 19 covered during that meeting, the people that were 20 present, the admonition I gave at the beginning of the 21 meeting, and the topics that were discussed. And what 22 the overall goal or what you took back with you, whether 23 or not you were acting as anyone's attorney and 24 essentially the process of that. 25 A I was asked to attend a meeting -- this is 442 1 to the best of you my recollection; I didn't take 2 notes -- I believe, as you said, September 2nd at the 3 county building. It was in the evening. 4 My recollection, at the meeting were David 5 Mason, Senior, David Mason, Jr., Bill Wolin, Senior, Bill 6 Wolin, Jr., Robert Womack, Roland Womack, Mark Sherrill, 7 Ron Hall, David Irey, myself. 8 Q Investigator Hayden? 9 A Yes, and another gentleman. That's who I 10 recall. 11 Q Okay. 12 A You opened the meeting and said this is a 13 meeting -- anything said in this meeting could be used 14 later in court. This is a meeting to try to resolve the 15 problem. It was my understanding, try to put a lid on 16 it, try to finish it, try to do something like that. 17 You basically, my recollection was, laid 18 out a lot of the statutory problems, the law on the 19 subject. You talked to all the people and the -- the 20 meeting turned out to be an idea to settle the matter. 21 And there were a couple ways to settle it that were 22 thrown out. One of the main concerns at the meeting was 23 locating a missing gas tank. 24 There was -- the meeting, itself, each 25 person told their story of what they knew as to what 443 1 happened. 2 Q With Mr. Womack being the one that gave 3 the full version? 4 A Yes. He gave his version of what 5 happened. 6 And once that was done, then you made an 7 offer to these people to settle it on one of two grounds, 8 one if the tank was found and one being if the tank was 9 not found. They wanted to discuss that. 10 I stayed in to -- you and the investigator 11 and the other gentleman went outside. I stayed in and 12 basically acted as a go-between between the two factions 13 to bounce suggestions or ideas off one or the other to 14 see if we could come to a settlement. 15 Q Specifically, we asked whether you were 16 representing anyone as counsel? 17 A I said, No. 18 Q Throughout the meeting, were you acting as 19 anyone's counsel? 20 A No. And as I explained, I didn't -- this 21 is not an area of law I have expertise in. And I was 22 there just trying to resolve the matter. 23 Q Okay. And so you were acting as 24 intermediary? 25 A That's correct. 444 1 Q And what types of things were discussed? 2 A Basically, terms of -- there was an offer 3 made to resolve the matter. It included fines and 4 pleading to misdemeanors. Is that okay? 5 Q Associated training? 6 A Associated training that persons would 7 have to go to if they wanted to settle it. There was one 8 fine set for what would happen in the event that the tank 9 was located and another fine set for what would happen in 10 the event the tank was not located. 11 So then it went back and forth. And 12 people asked questions. Because part of -- part of the 13 questions had to do with -- I believe that some of these 14 misdemeanors would be held in abeyance. And persons 15 would be subject to probation. And there was some 16 questions asked that I took back and forth as to -- 17 Q Search conditions? 18 A -- what the probation would be, what types 19 of things would trigger a violation. 20 Q Whether they were just underground storage 21 tanks or whether they were hazardous wastes? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q Or whether they were asbestos? 24 A Yes. 25 Q This meeting went on for several hours? 445 1 A Three or four hours, I think. 2 Q And one of the big issues was related to 3 if the tank is found, correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And several people in the meeting when I 6 was outside were concerned about, Are you going to 7 prosecute the person that has the tank? 8 A Mmmm... One of the concerns, and I think 9 the -- I addressed it. One of the things was brought up 10 was that there apparently had been a lot of publicity on 11 this already; not necessarily in the paper, but it was 12 known that this was going on. 13 And one of the concerns that was expressed 14 was, if somebody did have the tank, they won't bring it 15 back or they wouldn't bring it back because they would be 16 subject to fines and penalties and things like that. 17 And so I went and asked you if you agreed, 18 if the tank was brought back, that the person who held 19 the tank wouldn't be subject to penalties. Because what 20 happened was, it seemed to me that, in the event somebody 21 had the tank, somebody took the tank and was going to use 22 it for something and then found out there was a big 23 problem with it -- I was concerned if somebody had it and 24 buried it, they would leave it there forever because they 25 didn't want to subject themselves to a penalty. 446 1 And it was -- it made a big difference as 2 far as resolving the matter whether the tank was found or 3 not. 4 Q And so with my authority from the District 5 Attorney Steve Cilenti, I informed you, as long as it 6 wasn't one of the four at that time suspects, Mr. Mark 7 Sherrill, Mr. Billy Wolin, Jr., Mr. Bob Womack and Mr. 8 Dave Mason -- as long as it wasn't one of those four 9 members, I wouldn't prosecute them. Correct? 10 A That was my understanding. That's my 11 recollection. 12 Q You took that back to the people? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Then we weren't able to reach an 15 agreement; is that correct? 16 A No. 17 Q At the end of the night, did you think 18 that the tank might show up? 19 A At the end of the night, one of the things 20 we talked about was trying to figure out -- find out who 21 had the tank. There was -- there was talk about offering 22 a reward for it. There was talk about going back to 23 Mel's Diner to find out who all was sitting around there 24 to see if somebody else saw somebody. 25 And when I left, I thought there was going 447 1 to be a concerted effort to find the tank. 2 Q And that was Thursday night, September 3 2nd? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Then by Monday, the tank had been found? 6 A It wasn't -- I honestly don't remember 7 when it was found. I remember it had been found. It 8 wasn't a terribly long period of time since then. I 9 don't remember. You would remember better than I what 10 day it was. 11 Q You were contacted by Mr. Womack and said, 12 The tank is back? 13 A Yes, yes. 14 Q But also at that meeting, basically, they 15 had a drop dead date, they had to reach an agreement with 16 me by a certain date or the offer went away. Is that 17 your understanding? 18 A Yes. Originally, they had to decide that 19 night. Then you extended it -- I think it was a week. 20 Q Until the following Friday? 21 A I think it was the following Friday at 22 noon or something. 23 Q And you paged me that following Friday at 24 noon, correct? 25 A Yes. 448 1 Q And that week, you were acting as Mr. 2 Womack's attorney -- you were acting as Mr. Womack's 3 attorney, correct? 4 A I don't remember talking to him about that 5 at that week. I don't remember that I talked to him at 6 all. 7 Q But you called me and told me they were 8 going to reject the offer. Do you remember that? 9 A Yes. Well, I asked them -- because there 10 was a deadline, and I didn't want the deadline to go by 11 without somebody telling you what was going on. So I did 12 call them and ask him. And he said no. But I -- I 13 didn't talk to anybody else, other than he. 14 Q But throughout this, the whole idea was 15 compliance, clean up the mess and then the penalties. Is 16 that your understanding? 17 A The offer was, Bring the tank back. And 18 that really was the number one thing. And/or find the 19 tank. And admit to misdemeanors and do the rest of the 20 service and the going to probationary period and pay the 21 fine. 22 And my understanding was, unless the offer 23 was accepted by that next Friday at noon, that offer was 24 going to be withdrawn. 25 MR. IREY: Okay. And I have no further questions 449 1 of Mr. Ryan at this time. Any Members of the Grand Jury 2 have any questions, I would be happy to ask them. 3 I think I explained this to you before. 4 But at this point, any Member of the Grand Jury can 5 submit a question in writing to me. I read it to check 6 on the legal sufficiency, and then I ask it of you. 7 I am going to trade you files at this time 8 so you don't sneak out with the original. Thank you. 9 Q Mr. Ryan, was the selling price $60,000 10 to 80,000? Was it wired to the bank in the east? Where 11 did the $20,000 come from? 12 A The sales price, I believe, was 60,000. 13 The balance owing on the obligation was twenty. Mr. 14 Mason came in with an additional twenty to make the 15 eighty. 16 Q And that check is in the file? 17 A I believe a copy of it is. It's on a -- 18 on the -- this deposit, May 8th deposit, under the -- 19 it's probably like the fourth page down. 20 Q It's check 3097 for $20,679.15? 21 A That's -- I'm not looking at that. I am 22 looking at 20,679.15 is the amount on the printout 23 sheet. I haven't found the check yet. 24 But there was -- there was 80,000 owing, 25 and this -- Mr. Mason had to come in with money to clear 450 1 up. 2 Q Okay. Did the property at 505 Sutter 3 secure the note from Womack to Mason, if it's not 4 privileged? 5 A That's not privileged. It's a matter of 6 record. 7 The property that secures the note is 8 another piece of property that Mr. Mason owns. 9 MR. IREY: Other questions of the Grand Jury? 10 Mr. Ryan, at this time, the Grand Jury 11 Foreman has an admonition for you. We appreciate your 12 time this morning. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Do we get a second signature 14 from him? 15 MR. IREY: I would just have him put the second 16 time or initial it, whatever you need. 17 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. You are admonished not to 18 reveal to any person -- is that your signature? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 21 to any person except as directed by the Court what 22 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 23 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 24 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 25 appearance before the Grand Jury. 451 1 This admonition continues unless and until 2 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury 3 proceedings is made public. Violation of this admonition 4 is punishable as contempt of court. 5 This does not prevent you from discussing 6 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 7 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 8 Grand Jury. 9 And just initial underneath there. Thank 10 you very much. 11 MR. IREY: Thank you, Mr. Ryan. 12 I believe 1:30. Or do you want Mr. Ryan 13 to leave and you guys finish up? 14 THE FOREPERSON: I will read the admonition for 15 recess. And then is 45 minutes sufficient for 16 everybody? If not, speak up. Okay. Then when I am 17 finished reading this admonition, then we will convene 18 again at 1:30. 19 The Grand Jurors are admonished that they 20 are not to form or express any opinions about this case 21 or discuss it amongst themselves until the Grand Jury 22 receives the case for deliberation. 23 In addition, no inspection of evidence 24 should be conducted without the permission of the 25 Foreperson and on the advice of the prosecuting 452 1 attorney. A violation of this rule could result in a 2 charge of contempt against a Grand Juror who would have 3 investigated or viewed any matters with regard to this 4 case without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 5 We stand in recess until 1:30. Enjoy your 6 lunch. 7 (Luncheon recess taken at 12:45 p.m.) 8 ---oOo--- 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 453 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 ---oOo--- 3 THE FOREPERSON: We are all present and accounted 4 for. 5 THE SECRETARY: Roll has not been taken. We have 6 done a head count. 7 MR. IREY: That's fine. 8 Our first witness this afternoon is Gary 9 Rouse. 10 THE FOREPERSON: If you would remain standing 11 and raise your right hand. 12 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 13 that you shall give in this investigation now pending 14 before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole 15 truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. You may sit down. 18 19 (TIME NOTED: 12:58 P.M.) 20 ---oOo--- 21 GARY ROUSE 22 Called as a witness herein by the People, 23 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 24 and testified as follows: 25 454 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. IREY: 3 Q Mr. Rouse, I appreciate you coming in 4 today. My first question -- after the spelling of your 5 last name? 6 A Pardon? 7 Q Could you spell your last name, please. 8 A R-O-U-S-E. 9 Q Could you briefly, in two to three 10 minutes, explain to the Grand Jurors any medical 11 conditions that you currently have that might make you 12 shake or might make you nervous in this type of hearing. 13 And take your time. If you need water or 14 anything, just let us know. Okay? 15 A I have chronic -- I don't think I can do 16 this. 17 Q It's okay, Mr. Rouse. If you can't do it 18 today, we will try to have you come in next week. If 19 earlier in the morning is better for you or the 20 afternoon -- as I said, it's pretty informal. 21 But it's correct to say that Mr. Hall and 22 I came by your house a couple days ago; is that correct? 23 A Right. 24 Q At that time, we had a chat; is that true? 25 A Right, yes. 455 1 Q And at that time, you told us that being 2 under these conditions might be stressful to you, 3 correct? 4 A Right. 5 Q Okay. It's up to you if you want to wait 6 15 minutes and try again or if you want to try sometime 7 next week. 8 A Well, I will try. I mean, I would rather 9 get it over with. 10 Q Okay. 11 A I have chronic fatigue syndrome. It's got 12 a lot of symptoms. I really don't know how to explain 13 it. 14 Q Okay. Were you an employee of the City of 15 Jackson for twelve years? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And were you employed by the Building 18 Department? 19 A Right. 20 Q And were you a plan checker for the 21 Building Department? 22 A I was the building inspector. 23 Q You were the building inspector? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q For the City of Jackson? 456 1 A Right. 2 Q For twelve years? 3 A Right. 4 Q And in the mid '90s, this symptoms of this 5 illness started to become much more noticeable; is that 6 correct? 7 A Right. 8 Q And it caused you to miss small portions 9 of time; is that correct? From work? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q And then eventually, longer and longer 12 periods of time? 13 A Yeah. I was -- I was off for eight months 14 in 1994. 15 Q Okay. And then in May, late May or early 16 June of this year, you stopped working? 17 A Yeah. My doctor put me back on 18 disability. 19 Q Okay. And you just made a decision 20 recently to go ahead and retire? 21 A Right. The end of this month. 22 Q And this retirement has caused some 23 stresses in your life, correct? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q You have had to sell your home? 457 1 A Yeah. 2 Q But in May of 1998, you were working as 3 the building inspector for the City of Jackson, right? 4 A Right. 5 Q On top of your job as building inspector 6 for the City of Jackson, you were also a building 7 inspector for the City of Ione, correct? 8 A For a couple years. 9 Q Okay. And one of the people you worked 10 with on a daily basis in Jackson is a person named Gary 11 Urzik? 12 A Right. We shared the same office. 13 Q You sat as close to Mr. Urzik for twelve 14 years as you do to the Foreman? 15 A Right. 16 Q And when Mr. Hall and I visited, we were 17 talking about the underground storage tank removal from 18 505 Sutter Street, correct? 19 A Right. 20 Q You couldn't remember very many of the 21 specific conditions or the specific conversations you had 22 in May of 1998; is that correct? 23 A Right. I can -- I remember issuing a 24 permit, you know, but I just don't remember any 25 conversations -- 458 1 Q Okay. 2 A -- that we had. It's not just this one. 3 It's everything. The specifics, I don't -- I just -- my 4 memory is just not working. 5 Q But you still recognize your handwriting? 6 A Oh, yeah. 7 Q In fact, when I was at your house, you had 8 books out. You still read and things like that, correct? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q It's just physical exertion sometimes 11 breeds symptoms? 12 A Yeah. A lot -- I can't do much 13 physically. Then mental stress. I mean, there is a 14 lot -- stress was probably one of the main factors. They 15 don't really knows what causes chronic fatigue syndrome. 16 They think it's a virus. 17 It affects your physical -- I was out for 18 eight months. And for three months, I couldn't even get 19 out of bed. And it causes depression and anxiety and you 20 think you are going crazy and all of that, affects your 21 memory. Mental confusion. Just a lot of stuff. 22 Q You used to be a runner, your wife was 23 telling us. Is that true? 24 A Yeah, I ran every day. 25 Q And your wife told us, if this is true, 459 1 that each time that the symptoms come up, and you feel a 2 little bit better, then you go out and overexert 3 yourself. Is that true? 4 A Yeah. Every time I feel like I am halfway 5 normal again, I go out and mow the lawn or something. 6 And that will put me down for, you know, a few days. 7 Q She was telling us a story about how you 8 bought a Harley and went on a 150 mile Harley ride. Do 9 you recall that story? 10 A Oh, yeah. 11 Q Then you couldn't -- 12 A Yeah, couldn't do anything for I don't 13 know how long. 14 Q Long period of time? 15 A Yeah. And just, any kind of physical 16 exertion. 17 Q Okay. So as a building inspector, is one 18 of your jobs in May of 1998 to issue building permits? 19 A Right. 20 Q Would that include demolition permits? 21 A Right. 22 Q Do you issue permits to actually pull 23 underground storage tanks? 24 A No. I think in the twelve years, I only 25 had about three of those, I believe. And I don't know. 460 1 I can't -- I don't recall. The requirements and who was 2 involved changes all the time. 3 Q Okay. Does any other City or State or 4 County agency handle underground storage tanks, to your 5 knowledge? 6 A The County Environmental Health generally 7 handles that portion of it. 8 Q And you knew that in May of '88? 9 A Oh, yeah. 10 Q We tried to refresh your recollection 11 about conversations you had with Mr. Womack. Is that 12 true? 13 A Mm-hmm. 14 Q You weren't able to remember those 15 conversations? 16 A No. I know what -- from what Gary Urzik 17 told me. 18 Q You can't testify to what Gary Urzik told 19 you. Sorry. He may testify later. 20 I can ask you this question. You have 21 known Gary Urzik how many years? 22 A Little over twelve. 23 Q Is he a trustworthy guy? 24 A Oh, absolutely. 25 Q Has he been truthful the whole time you 461 1 have known him? 2 A Oh, yeah. Yeah. He is -- he is a very 3 conscientious person. 4 Q And is that in his personal life, as well 5 as his duties as an engineer for the City of Jackson? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q Okay. This has been marked Grand Jury 8 Exhibit No. 26. And top right corner is a number, 4171. 9 Is the writing on the front of this file yours? 10 A Yeah. This -- this is. This, I believe, 11 is Larry White's. 12 Q Okay. So when you say this is -- this is 13 Larry White's original file. 14 Could you highlight everything on the 15 front of this file that is your handwriting, please. 16 A (Witness complies.) 17 Q Okay. So you fill out the building 18 address, correct? 19 A Mm-hmm. 20 Q And what the actual type of work is going 21 to be on here. You wrote demolition; is that correct? 22 A Right. 23 Q And then the builder was owner builder. 24 Is that what you wrote? 25 A Mm-hmm. 462 1 Q Then the owner information. Who does that 2 state? 3 A Roland Womack. 4 Q And how do you make each of these 5 determinations? Is that from just over the counter 6 somebody tells you? Or do they provide paperwork? 7 A Well, they have to fill out a building 8 permit application that has all that in there. 9 Q Okay. And inside Grand Jury Exhibit 26, 10 is this a building permit application? 11 A Right. 12 Q Who fills out this document? 13 A The owner. The owner or the owner's 14 representative or, like, a general contractor. 15 Q Okay. And here the applicant's name is 16 whom? 17 A Roland Womack. 18 Q The owner's name is whom? 19 A Roland Womack. 20 Q Down here as the contractor, they wrote 21 in? 22 A Wolin and Sons. 23 Q Is any writing on the front of this 24 yours? And pay particular attention to the project 25 valuation. I don't know if any of this is your 463 1 handwriting or not. 2 A No. I don't ever write on those except 3 for down here. This is necessary. 4 Q Which is below the line, which says For 5 City Use Only? 6 A Right. 7 Q Who puts the actual Received stamp on 8 there? 9 A Oh, generally one of the ladies up front. 10 Q Okay. The second -- is that just a copy? 11 It says City of Jackson Building Permit Application. 12 A Yeah. Must be. 13 Q Okay. So this -- the one on the right 14 appears to have an original stamp; and this one may be a 15 copy? 16 A Yeah. 17 Q Appears to be the same document? 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q That's a letter to the file from LTR 20 White. That's not you, correct? 21 A No. 22 Q And this is called a building permit. Who 23 fills out the this information? 24 A I do. 25 Q So could you highlight any handwriting 464 1 that is not yours on here. And I am pointing at this 2 time to where it says -- there is a check number. And 3 that doesn't appear to be your handwriting? 4 A No. That's Sherry Martin. 5 Q Okay. Could you go ahead and highlight 6 all handwriting on there that is not yours. Okay. You 7 highlighted Sher. R. Womack? 8 A Right. 9 Q Do you remember who signed this building 10 permit? 11 A Well, it would have been Womack. 12 Q When you say Womack, is that Robert or the 13 dentist Roland? If you remember? 14 A Well, it's Roland, the -- it was the same 15 guy that filled out -- I guess -- I never seen the 16 dentist Roland. So I am assuming. 17 Q So it's the same guy that signed it that 18 filled out all the paperwork? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q Then at that point, they are actually 21 given what color of building permit? 22 A Hmmm... 23 Q If you remember. 24 A Well, they are given the top -- I think it 25 was white, the top copy. There is four or five -- four 465 1 copies, I think. And they get the top one, the original. 2 Q So they have the original signature there? 3 A Yeah. 4 Q Okay. And this is called the building 5 permit file? 6 A Right. 7 Q And that's Grand Jury Exhibit 26. 8 What's this file called, that is marked 9 Grand Jury Exhibit No. 28? 10 A That's the street file. Keep everything 11 in. 12 Q So every address in Jackson has what's 13 called a street file? 14 A Right. 15 Q Commercial, residential? 16 A As long as they have taken out a permit or 17 there has been some sort of activity at that address, 18 then it goes in there. If they have never had a permit 19 or something, then there is no file. 20 Q What types of documents are kept in here? 21 A Well, the building permits. There would 22 be anything in there. There would have -- any kind of 23 activity that would pertain to that address. 24 Q Okay. This piece of paper that was inside 25 Grand Jury exhibit 28. It's an inspection record. 466 1 A Yeah. 2 Q Is that given out at the same time as the 3 permit? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. Is anything else stapled to it, a 6 receipt or something? 7 A Yeah, they usually get a receipt for the 8 payment. 9 Q And the inspection record is basically a 10 cardboard document that can be used and it's supposed to 11 be posted at the business? 12 A Right. 13 Q That's just the inspector's records? 14 A Yeah. Every time an inspector comes for 15 an inspection, they mark down on the card what's been 16 done, the type of inspection. 17 Q And as a building inspector, you would 18 actually physically go out to sites and sign off on the 19 work? 20 A Right. 21 Q Okay. Inside this file are several 22 documents, but the one I would like you to look at right 23 now is one dated July 19th, 1988. 24 Do you recognize this type of document? 25 A Well, it's not a City document. It's a 467 1 County Health Department. I don't know if we get copies 2 of that or not. We should. I don't recall. 3 Q Okay. Earlier today someone testified 4 that this permit was in this file, the 505. Does that 5 make sense, County permits would sometimes be -- 6 A Yeah. We should always exchange 7 information. It doesn't always happen that way. That's 8 the normal. That's what should be done. 9 Q Okay. 10 A If that was in there, then that was done 11 right. 12 Q Okay. And this is a County permit 13 application for underground storage tanks? 14 A Right. 15 Q New installations? 16 A Mm-hmm. 17 Q Who was the owner's signature at the time? 18 A David Mason. 19 Q Is it for the same street address? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you at any time, if you can remember, 22 tell Mr. Womack it was okay for him to pull his 23 underground storage tanks without a County permit? 24 A I don't -- I don't recall telling him 25 that. That would have been the normal thing to say, but 468 1 I just don't -- I don't have any -- any memory of any 2 conversation other than I know I issued him the permit to 3 tear the buildings down. 4 Q Okay. So I will re-ask that question, 5 because I think that maybe I misspoke or you didn't hear 6 the question. 7 Normally, would you tell him to get a 8 permit? Or normally would you tell him -- would you 9 normally tell him to get a permit from Environmental 10 Health to pull the tanks? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And in the alternative, would you normally 13 tell him that the demolition permit covered everything? 14 A He would -- we would normally tell him 15 that he would have to get the permit from the County 16 Health to remove the tank. 17 Q And when Mr. Hall and I met you, we tried 18 to refresh your recollection with statements Mr. Urzik 19 had made, correct? 20 A Right. 21 Q But we also told you to absolutely, when 22 you come in front of the Grand Jury, to tell them what 23 you remember, correct? 24 A Right. 25 Q And we told you specifically, if you don't 469 1 remember the conversation Mr. Urzik is talking about, 2 then please don't tell the Grand Jurors that you remember 3 it. Correct? 4 A Right. 5 Q And you can't remember, correct? 6 A Right. I can't. 7 Q The litter around the gas station to Dave 8 Mason. Do you remember why you would have written 9 letters to him of complaints of his vacant gas station? 10 A Normally, it's something -- normally, we 11 would get a complaint from a neighbor, somebody that 12 lives close by, that people complain, you know. And 13 that's generally, I wouldn't -- that's the general reason 14 I would write that type of letter. Because normally, 15 somebody comes in and fills out a complaint form about 16 whatever they are complaining about. Then I have to 17 write a letter. 18 Q And that's pretty much standard operation? 19 A Right. 20 MR. IREY: Okay. Mr. Rouse, although I explained 21 it to you the other night at your house, I want to 22 explain it to you again. At this point, I have no 23 further questions. If any Member of the Grand Jury wants 24 to ask you a question, then they have -- it's pretty much 25 their investigation. And so they will write down a 470 1 question. And I will ask that of you. And then you 2 answer that just like any of my questions. 3 At the end of that, then the Grand Jury 4 Foreman will give you what's called an admonition that 5 basically will say, Don't talk to anybody about your 6 questions you were asked today or anything you were 7 shown. 8 And then we will be done. 9 THE WITNESS: Good. 10 MR. IREY: At this time, does any Member of the 11 Grand Jury have any questions for Mr. Rouse. 12 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 13 26. Is this pretty much what the original building 14 permit files look like? 15 A Yeah, they are all -- the folders are all 16 the same. 17 Q Mr. Rouse, what happens to the building 18 permit when the work is completed after the inspector has 19 signed it? 20 A Well, then we have a final permit drawer. 21 We sign off the job card. And for commercial, they get a 22 certificate of occupancy. 23 In this case, they wouldn't have got a 24 certificate of occupancy, because it was a demolition. 25 Would have signed everything off, would have signed the 471 1 folder off, would have signed the job card off. Then it 2 goes in a separate drawer that's just for finals. And we 3 -- we keep 'em forever for commercial. 4 Q So while it's pending, it's in one part of 5 the building; and when it's final, then you -- actually, 6 if you could yellow highlight where you sign off that the 7 final inspection has been done? 8 A This up here at the top. Well, okay. 9 First off, under the final. There are several. And then 10 I -- I would just write it in red up here, Final. 11 Q Okay. 12 A It would be up there, anyhow. 13 Q Okay. And then this card which has been 14 marked Grand Jury Exhibit 29, this as a standard City of 15 Jackson Department of Public Works Building Permit, 16 correct? 17 A Right. 18 Q And on here, if there was a final 19 inspection done, would you sign it off? 20 A Yeah, here. 21 Q Go ahead and yellow it, please. 22 A This is -- depends on -- I could final all 23 these different, depending on plumbing, electrical, 24 building site work, the different areas. 25 Q Demolition. Would you normally sign off a 472 1 demolition permit? 2 A Yeah, you have to sign -- any permit 3 issued has to be. 4 Q The only way to turn this file, which is 5 not yet signed final, into a final one is by actually 6 having an inspector verify, correct? 7 A Right. 8 MR. IREY: Any other questions. 9 Q Did you check with the County records to 10 see if Roland Womack was the owner? There is two 11 questions here. I am going to ask that as the first 12 question. If you recall. 13 A I don't recall. But generally, when they 14 put down they are the owner, we generally go by that. 15 Q Okay. Second question I think you have 16 already answered, but I will ask it. Or do you not do 17 that as a rule? 18 A Generally, we don't. It's never been a 19 problem. Until now. 20 Q Okay. Do you remember if the person 21 pulling the permit asked you about a permit to dispose of 22 the gas tanks? 23 A I don't recall what he said. 24 Q If not, do you remember whether they were 25 going to build over the tank of gasoline? 473 1 A Well, they were -- he was going to 2 rebuild. And it would have been over the tank. Because 3 he was going to rebuild where the gas building -- the 4 original building was. 5 Q But again, your agency isn't the one that 6 closes underground storage tanks, correct? 7 A Pardon? 8 Q I can ask that again. 9 Would it be a true statement to say that 10 your agency isn't the lead agency for the closure of 11 underground tanks? 12 A Right. The Environmental Health 13 Department is. 14 Q The whole twelve years you were there, 15 that was pretty much the case? 16 A Pretty much. At different times, they had 17 different people and the rules kind of change, you know, 18 off and on. In twelve years, I think I only had about 19 three total. So that's, you know, not very many. 20 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions? The Grand 21 Jury Foreman has an admonition. 22 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 23 to any person except as directed by the Court what 24 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 25 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 474 1 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 2 appearance before the Grand Jury. 3 This admonition continues unless and until 4 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 5 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 6 punishable as contempt of court. 7 This does not prevent you from discussing 8 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 9 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 10 Grand Jury. 11 Sir, if I could get you to sign and date 12 this, that I read that to you, we would be all through. 13 Thank you very much. 14 MR. IREY: Tina Wolin. 15 THE FOREPERSON: Raise your right hand. 16 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 17 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 18 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 19 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 20 THE WITNESS: I do. 21 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 22 23 (TIME NOTED: 2:24 P.M.) 24 ---oOo--- 25 475 1 TINA WOLIN 2 Called as a witness herein by the People, 3 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 4 and testified as follows: 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. IREY: 7 Q Would you spell your last name for the 8 record, please. 9 A W-O-L-I-N. 10 Q And whom are you married to? 11 A William A. Wolin. 12 Q How old is William A. Wolin? 13 A Thirty. 14 Q How long have you been married? 15 A Six years. 16 Q And you recently received a subpoena to 17 testify today; that correct? 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q You need to speak up. She is taking down 20 everything you say. 21 A Sorry. Yes. 22 Q Is this the first time you have testified? 23 A Yes. 24 Q You a little nervous? 25 A Yeah. 476 1 Q It's kind of informal in here, but 2 everything is being taken down. And so if you could 3 think before you answer, that would be helpful. Okay? 4 A (Witness nods head.) 5 Q You have to audibly answer each question; 6 and no shaking of the head. 7 A Okay. Yeah. 8 Q Okay. And if you don't understand any of 9 my questions, feel free to say "I don't understand" and I 10 will re-ask the question. Okay? 11 A Okay. 12 Q And do you know why you are here today? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And that's about underground storage tank 15 pull? 16 A No. 17 Q No? You are here to talk about when Mr. 18 Womack came by your house? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. And instead of me pulling teeth and 21 getting yes or no answers, could you briefly describe any 22 phone calls you have received from Mr. Womack or any 23 visits you received from Mr. Womack since May of 1998. 24 A Well, he left one message on the answering 25 machine for my husband to return a phone call about 477 1 signing a document. 2 Q Was that all that was on the message or 3 was it a longer message? 4 A No. That was it. 5 Q Okay. And then did he actually come by 6 the house? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And when he came by the house, what 9 conversation did you have with him? 10 A He wanted to know why my husband didn't 11 return his phone call. And I said, Well, he has been 12 working late. He hasn't been home. And second of all, 13 we didn't feel comfortable signing this without someone 14 looking at it first. 15 Q Did Mr. Womack show you the document? 16 A No. 17 Q So he left a message about signing a 18 document, correct? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q And he came by to talk to you about 21 signing the document, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And the second time when he came by your 24 house, you were there by yourself, correct? 25 A Yes. 478 1 Q And early in this case, your husband was 2 the subject -- was a suspect in the investigation. You 3 realize that, correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And it had to deal with underground 6 storage tank removal, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And normally, he works for his father's 9 business, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And what is that business? 12 A Wolin and Sons. 13 Q But that particular Saturday and Sunday, 14 he was working by the hour for somebody else, correct? 15 A Yeah. 16 Q And if you know, who was he working for? 17 A Bob Womack. 18 Q And when you say Bob Womack, that's Robert 19 Womack, in his early 60s or mid 60s? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And that's who came by your house? 22 A Yes. 23 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 24 No. 30. And it's a copy of a check. 25 Have you ever seen that check before? 479 1 A Yeah. 2 Q Okay. Your -- I will get you the original 3 check, I think. 4 A Okay. 5 Q But in the bottom left corner, it says -- 6 can you tell the jury -- 7 A Station. 8 Q And then it says? 9 A Thank you. 10 Q Is that your handwriting? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Oh, it is. Because your husband -- I will 13 ask a different question. 14 Were you very happy that your husband 15 worked that weekend? 16 A No. 17 Q And why is that? 18 A We had a family reunion to go to. 19 Q And so he missed a family reunion to do 20 this? 21 A No. I still went. He didn't. 22 Q But he missed it? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you give him in some kind of warning 25 about going? 480 1 A Yes. 2 Q What did you tell him would happen? 3 A I told him something bad was probably 4 going to happen if he didn't go. 5 Q And did it? 6 A Yep. We are here today. 7 Q Does he listen to you better now? 8 A I hope so. 9 Q I will try to find the check. 10 Did you have any -- any longer 11 conversation with Mr. Womack when he came by the house? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And what other things did he mention? 14 A Mmmm... He asked me why my husband's 15 father was upset at him. 16 Q And did you know? 17 A No. I said, I haven't spoke to Bill 18 Senior, so I don't know why he is upset at you. 19 Q Okay. So he came by and asked why Billy 20 hadn't called back. 21 Some people call him Billy? 22 A Well, I do. 23 Q And then he asked why Bill Senior was mad 24 at him? 25 A Yes. 481 1 Q And you guys had a conversation about 2 buying a car or something, too? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And what kind of car was that? 5 A We had a Suburban, and it was getting up 6 in miles. And I had just mentioned to him, yeah, we were 7 talking about selling the vehicle. We are kind of scared 8 to because of all the stuff that's going on. 9 He said, Oh, don't worry about that. 10 That's okay. I know somebody I can get in contact with 11 that we can have you go down and buy a vehicle from. 12 I said, Oh, who is that? 13 He said, I will give a few phone calls and 14 call you back on that and let you know. Then he 15 mentioned something about his son possibly wanting to buy 16 the Suburban from us. Which we never heard back on. 17 So he did call my husband and told him 18 that there was this man -- 19 Q I'm sorry. I am supposed to play the 20 Judge here. 21 A Okay. 22 Q You can't testify to what Mr. Womack told 23 your son -- told your husband. 24 A Okay. 25 Q Unless what your husband tells us is 482 1 completely inconsistent with what -- 2 A Okay. 3 Q Thanks. 4 So it's your understanding from your 5 husband that Mr. Womack called him back about the truck? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q But that night, the context was, you 8 didn't want to go out and buy a new car because you 9 didn't know what was going to happen to Billy? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q Because you were worried? 12 A Right. 13 Q Because this has been a big headache? 14 A Yes. 15 Q For several months? 16 A Yes. 17 Q But it's your understanding that Billy has 18 reached an agreement, correct? 19 A As far as I know, yes. 20 Q He is going to take some classes? 21 A That's what he has told me. 22 Q Okay. Other than Womack leaving a message 23 and Womack coming by the house, have you had any other 24 conversations with him in -- since May of '88? 25 A No. 483 1 Q May of '98. Sorry. 2 A No. 3 MR. IREY: I am going to find the check in just a 4 moment. 5 If any Members of the Grand Jury have any 6 questions for Ms. Wolin, I would be happy to ask them. I 7 am trying to find the original check. 8 Q And how do you know Billy was paid by the 9 hour and not by Wolin and Sons for this job? 10 A Because he was hired by Bob Womack to do 11 the job; not the company. 12 Q And we may bring you back, but we probably 13 don't need to. 14 But has Bill Junior, Bill Wolin, told you 15 about what he did that weekend? 16 A Yes. 17 Q In fact, didn't he tell you early about 18 Womack coming up and seeing him on a job? 19 A No, he did not tell me that. 20 Q Did he ever tell you that Womack came up 21 and told him not to tell the truth? 22 A Yes, he did tell me that. 23 Q Was that pretty early in this? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q So he came home one day and said, You 484 1 wouldn't believe it, but Womack showed up at my work site 2 today? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Could you tell the Grand Jurors what you 5 remember from that story. 6 A That he just told me that Bob told him 7 that, if somebody comes or calls you, to tell them that 8 you don't know anything. 9 That's all I remember him saying about 10 that. 11 Q Okay. This has been marked Grand Jury 12 Exhibit 31. 13 You want to look at the back? 14 A Yes. Because I wrote that on the back. 15 Q When you say "that," you wrote "Deposit 16 Only"? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And that's your checking account? 19 A Yes. 20 Q So that's your handwriting. 21 And "thank you" on the front of is your 22 handwriting; is that right? 23 A Yes. 24 MR. IREY: Again, I have no further questions. 25 But at this point -- 485 1 Q We just met at 1:00 at my office today, 2 correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And at that time, I kind of explained to 5 you that it was informal, but that the Grand Jurors could 6 ask questions, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Here is the first question: What document 9 was it that Robert Womack wanted Billy to sign? 10 A I don't know. Because I never saw it. 11 Q But you told Womack that you didn't want 12 to sign it? 13 A I didn't want to sign anything that man 14 has without reading it first or having someone else 15 reading it. 16 Q That's not what you told him. 17 What did you actually tell him? You said? 18 A I just him that, no, he didn't want to 19 sign it. 20 Q Had you had conversations with Billy about 21 the document that Womack wanted him to sign or not? 22 A No. Because Billy didn't even know what 23 it was. 24 Q You just told him, No, we are not signing 25 it? 486 1 A Right. 2 Q How many prior business dealings did you 3 have in the past with Womacks, if any? 4 A I didn't have any. My husband has. 5 Q You don't work for Wolin and Sons; is that 6 correct? Or do you? 7 A I am considered an employee there. 8 Q Okay. But do you bid jobs and things like 9 that? 10 A I do sometimes run bids for them. But not 11 for him. I mean, we have never -- I have never ran a bid 12 to Bob Womack for a job. 13 Q It sounds like in your voice, you have 14 some animosity toward Bob Womack; is that correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Just because of this? Or from other 17 issues? 18 A Other issues. 19 Q Such as? 20 A What he did to my sister. 21 Q And although I don't know this story, we 22 can get into it to a point. At some point, the Grand 23 Jury has to break off between what is relevant to this 24 case and what's not relevant. 25 Since I don't know the answer, I am going 487 1 to ask you to go ahead and give us the subject matter. 2 Because, for instance, if Mr. Womack came in and 3 testified that Ms. Tina Wolin hates me for A, B and C, 4 all of which isn't true, we kind of need to have your 5 story for that. 6 What did he do to your sister? Subject 7 matter. 8 A My sister was dating his son, Larry 9 Womack. They moved to Illinois together. They came back 10 for Christmas break to come spend Christmas with the 11 family. 12 He broke up with her on Christmas Day. 13 And he would not allow my sister to go back and get her 14 things. Things came back to my sister about three to 15 four months later. Things were broken. His son had 16 broke things of my sister, cut up clothing. High school 17 diploma type things were destroyed that his son did. 18 And he kept telling my sister that she 19 just basically wasn't allowed to go back and get her 20 things, which I didn't think was right. 21 Q "He" being Larry? Or "he" being Bob 22 Womack? 23 A Him, being Bob Womack, said she could not 24 get her personal items where they were living. 25 Q At the time were they living in Camanche? 488 1 A No. They were living in Chicago, 2 Illinois. 3 Q Okay. But Bob -- you had contact with 4 Bob; and Bob had contact with your sister regarding her 5 connection with Larry? 6 A Yes. Because we were friends a long time 7 ago. We used to do a lot of things with them. 8 Q You and Billy and Larry and your sister? 9 A Yes. And Bob Womack and June. The whole 10 family. 11 Q Vacation together? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Mexico? 14 A We went to the Caribbean together. 15 Q Canada? 16 A No. 17 Q But Bill Senior goes on vacation or used 18 to go on vacations with Bob Womack, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q So it's just an accumulation of things you 21 feel Bob Womack has done to you and your family? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And that includes this tank thing? 24 A Yes. 25 MR. IREY: Any other questions. 489 1 Q Why did you feel something bad would 2 happen if Billy didn't go with you to the family reunion? 3 A Normally, before, it used to take Bob a 4 long time to pay my husband for the work he has done for 5 him. 6 I kept telling him, You are not working 7 for free on the weekends and missing a family reunion 8 because of it. And I just felt that, if he didn't go, 9 something was going to happen. I don't know. 10 Q So your husband has done work for Womack 11 in the past? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And it's kind of a slow pay thing? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. IREY: Any other questions? 16 You are doing fine, by the way. 17 THE WITNESS: Thanks. 18 Q BY MR. IREY: Do you know if your husband 19 was insured to do this job? 20 A No. 21 Q You don't know? 22 A No. 23 Q And did he -- I will ask this question, 24 but you are not going to be able to answer this. Did he 25 know that he needed to be qualified to do this job? 490 1 Since you are not him, you can't answer that. 2 Okay. But I can ask: Do you know if your 3 husband has had any hazardous waste training? 4 A Not to my knowledge. 5 Q Have you ever sent him to school to take 6 hazardous waste training? 7 A Have I ever sent him? 8 Q Yeah. Has -- 9 A No. 10 Q Has he ever brought home a certificate or 11 card that says he has hazardous waste training? 12 A Not to my knowledge, no. 13 Q To your knowledge, has he ever removed 14 underground storage tanks before? 15 A Not to my knowledge. I don't ask him 16 everything he does. 17 Q Do you know why Bill Senior was upset with 18 Womack? 19 A Do I know -- can you repeat that again? 20 Q Do you know why Bill Senior was upset with 21 Womack? And again -- 22 A No, I don't know all of the reasons why. 23 MR. IREY: Any other questions? Okay. 24 At this time, neither I nor the Grand 25 Jurors have any more questions, so the Grand Jury Foreman 491 1 will read you what's called an admonition about your 2 testimony here today. 3 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 4 to any person except as directed by the Court what 5 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 6 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 7 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 8 appearance before the Grand Jury. 9 This admonition continues unless and until 10 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceedings 11 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 12 punishable as contempt of court. 13 This does not prevent you from discussing 14 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 15 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 16 Grand Jury. 17 If I could get you to date and sign this, 18 that I read you that admonition. 19 MR. IREY: So you are left-handed. I noticed 20 that writing was a little peculiar. 21 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you very much. 22 THE WITNESS: Can I go ahead and be dismissed? 23 MR. IREY: Yes. 24 E. Michael Quinn. 25 THE FOREPERSON: You do solemnly swear that the 492 1 evidence you shall give in this investigation now pending 2 before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole 3 truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 4 THE WITNESS: I do. 5 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 6 7 (TIME: 2:41 P.M.) 8 ---oOo--- 9 E. MICHAEL QUINN 10 Called as a witness herein by the People, 11 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 12 and testified as follows: 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. IREY: 15 Q Have a seat. 16 Ms. Quinn, what is your current 17 occupation? 18 A I am controller for Wolin and Sons. 19 Q And how long have you worked for Wolin and 20 Sons? 21 A Thirteen -- little over thirteen and a 22 half years. 23 Q What is your background? 24 A I went -- like school and stuff like that? 25 Q Sure. 493 1 A I went to school at Humboldt State, 2 graduated from there. Worked in San Francisco for CPA 3 firm. Got my CPA. And after about three years there, I 4 started working for Wolin and Sons. 5 Q Okay. And although you were a CPA in the 6 past, you haven't kept your certificate up? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q You have a college degree? 9 A Yes. 10 Q CPA? 11 A I was. 12 Q And now you are the controller for Wolin 13 and Sons? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You have been in that position for 16 fourteen years? 17 A Almost. 18 Q And you were subpoenaed to testify here 19 today, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And is this the first time you have 22 testified? Or are you a veteran? 23 A Mmmm... First time before a Grand Jury. 24 Q Okay. And you know what this is about? 25 A Yes. 494 1 Q And could you briefly describe to the 2 Grand Jurors your understanding of why you are here to 3 testify today. 4 A Mmmm... Well, I work in Wolin's office. 5 And I don't know what you want me to say. 6 Q Okay. I will do it. I want you to say 7 the truth. 8 Did Bob Womack come by your office in 9 early May of this year? 10 A Yes, he did. 11 Q How do you know it was Bob Womack? 12 A I recognized him from previous times he 13 has been in and around. 14 Q Okay. This has been marked Grand Jury 15 Exhibit No. 26. Okay? 16 A Okay. 17 Q And inside this exhibit is this two-page 18 document that -- at the top, how does it read? 19 A City of Jackson Building Permit 20 Application. 21 Q Okay. And in early May of this year, did 22 Bob Womack come by your work? 23 A Yes, he did. 24 Q Did you know he was coming? 25 A No. 495 1 Q He just showed up? 2 A Yes. 3 Q About what time of day? 4 A Mmmm... I remember that Carol wasn't 5 there when he was -- when he was -- when he came in. And 6 I looked at her time card. The only time she wasn't 7 there was between 12:00 and 1:00. 8 Q So he came by at lunchtime? 9 A At lunchtime. 10 Q And he brought in a document, correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And does that document appear to be the 13 document he brought in? 14 A Yes, it is. 15 Q And it's called the City of Jackson 16 Building Permit Application? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And under Contractor, it lists what 19 business? 20 A Under Contractor, it says Wolin and Sons. 21 Q And was Wolin and Sons the contractor on 22 any job at 505 Sutter Street, Jackson? 23 A Well, no. 24 Q Okay. And when Mr. Womack came into your 25 office, do you remember the subject matter of the 496 1 conversation you had? 2 A He came in and said something to the 3 effect of -- after a little chitchat, something to the 4 effect of, We are going to take down that building 5 tomorrow at Mason's old place. And I need to get some 6 information from you. 7 Q Okay. 8 A And he handed me this piece of paper, 9 which already had Wolin and Sons listed under the 10 contractor. 11 Q Okay. 12 A And I completed our address, license 13 number and Workers' Compensation information. 14 Q Before you wrote all of that in -- again, 15 is that your handwriting on the document? 16 A Not where it says Wolin and Sons. But the 17 rest of the information under the contractor's section is 18 my handwriting. 19 Q We are marking up these original 20 documents, so could you highlight everything on this form 21 that is your original handwriting in this yellow 22 highlighter, please. 23 A Sure. 24 Q Prior to placing that information, didn't 25 you check with somebody at Wolin and Sons, if you recall? 497 1 A Damian was also in the office. 2 Q Damian being Damian Wolin? 3 A Damian was also in the office. 4 And I turned to him and said something, We 5 moved that excavator down there, right? And he said, 6 Right. So I said, Okay. 7 Q So had you talked to Bill Senior about 8 this before it happened? 9 A No. 10 Q And you actually gave your Workmen's Comp 11 numbers to him; is that correct? 12 A Yeah, I did. 13 Q And when Mr. Bill E. Wolin found out about 14 that, he wasn't happy, correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q He probably told you what he thought about 17 you doing that. Is that safe to say? 18 A Mmmm... Yeah. Well, you know, why did 19 you -- why did you put this on here? It's like -- Womack 20 was someone that we had had dealings with before. We 21 rented him equipment from time to time, with operators 22 sometimes, without operators sometimes. You know, he was 23 was a familiar face, and... 24 Q Okay. But did -- do you keep track of 25 jobs that Wolin and Sons bids as a controller? 498 1 A Of jobs that we bid? 2 Q Yeah. 3 A Mmmm... Not all of 'em. 4 Q Jobs that you get? 5 A Jobs that we get? 6 Q Yeah. 7 A Yeah, I do the payroll and I do the 8 billing and that kind of thing. 9 Q Did Wolin and Sons bill for any of that 10 work this weekend? 11 A No, we did not. 12 Q Was Wolin and Sons paid for any of that 13 work? 14 A No. 15 Q Was Wolin and Sons ever paid for the 16 excavator used that weekend? 17 A No, we were not. 18 Q So it was kind of a freebie loan, if you 19 know? 20 A I don't know. What's a freebie? 21 Q Okay. So all of this information -- 27911 22 is the number at your business? 23 A Yes. 24 Q License number is your contractor's 25 license? 499 1 A That's our contractor's license number. 2 Q You have a Class A license, correct? 3 A Mm-hmm. 4 Q Do you have anybody that has Haz Mat at 5 this time? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Some of your operators? 8 A Mmmm... Are you talking about the 9 license? 10 Q Yes. 11 A In licensing. Yeah, there is a subsequent 12 Haz Mat license, as well. 13 Q And your Workers' Comp insurer is State 14 Fund? 15 A Yes. 16 Q That's your policy number on there? 17 A Mm-hmm. 18 Q And you have a City of Jackson business 19 license of 1451? 20 A We did at the time. 21 Q When Womack was there at the time, did he 22 tell you he was going to pull an underground storage tank 23 that weekend? 24 A No. He specifically said, We are going to 25 demo that building. 500 1 Q You specifically remember that. 2 A Yes. 3 Q Have you had conversations since with Mr. 4 Womack, since May 1st, 1998? 5 A Not other than nodding or Hi. 6 Q Has he come in the building to talk to 7 Bill Senior? 8 A I don't -- not that I recall. 9 Q Okay. Other than this -- these four 10 lines, did you fill out any other information for Mr. 11 Womack? 12 A No. And some of this other information 13 wasn't filled out when it was given to me either. 14 Q Such as? 15 A I don't think -- at least, I don't recall 16 the $1,000 under project valuation. That I don't believe 17 was on there. 18 Q Okay. And then later that day, did you 19 talk to Bill Senior? Or was it down the road that you 20 learned about this Workmen's Compensation issue? 21 A Oh, it was after, after that weekend. 22 Q It was -- in fact, if you remember, was it 23 after Bill Wolin, Senior told you he had spoken with Gary 24 Clark? 25 A It was after he had talked with someone. 501 1 I can't remember if he said it was with the City or 2 County. Someone had told him our name was all over -- or 3 our name was on the documents. 4 Q Have you been told that Wolin and Sons' 5 name was also used on the underground storage tank 6 removal permit that was retroactively filled out by David 7 Mason? 8 A I have been told that since. 9 Q Have you seen it yet? 10 A I think I saw it in the office one day. 11 Q In a moment, I am going show you a 12 seven-page document and ask you questions about that. 13 A Okay. 14 Q Who are the corporate officers of Wolin 15 and Sons, Inc. at this time, if you know? 16 A Yes, I do know. Damian Wolin is the 17 president. William E. and Robert H. Wolin are both vice 18 presidents. And I am the secretary/treasurer. 19 Q W.E. being Bill Senior? 20 A Right. 21 Q And William A. being Billy? 22 A Right. 23 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 24 32. And on page 5, Section 6-D, Contaminated Soil 25 Hazardous Waste Hauler is listed as whom? 502 1 A It's listed as Wolin and Sons. 2 Q Are you a hazardous waste hauler? 3 A No, we are not. 4 Q And -- 5 A And I also don't recognize the writing. 6 Q Okay. And the bottom, do you recognize 7 the signature, page 5? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay. The date, though, is? 10 A The date is May 4th of '98. 11 Q And on page 4, under 3A, the Tank and 12 Piping Hauler. Who is listed? 13 A Wolin and Sons. 14 Q And it's listed in what town? 15 A That one is listed in Sutter Creek. The 16 other said Plymouth. 17 Q 3A is Wolin and Sons of Sutter Creek, 18 correct? 19 A That's what it says. 20 Q Are you a tank and piping hauler? 21 A No, we are not. 22 Q And 6-D is Wolin and Sons from Plymouth, 23 correct? 24 A That's what it says. 25 Q Not your writing? 503 1 A No. 2 Q Could you quickly skim through -- big faux 3 pas here. All of the highlighting on here was on here 4 when this was handed to you, correct? 5 A Yeah. I haven't highlighted anything. 6 Q Could you quickly skim through there and 7 see if any of the writing on this underground storage 8 tank removal permit is yours, please. 9 A No, it's not my handwriting. 10 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions of 11 Ms. Quinn. 12 If any Members of the Grand Jury have any 13 questions of Ms. Quinn, I would be happy to ask them of 14 her. Okay. Mr. Foreman. 15 GRAND JUROR: I do have a question. 16 MR. IREY: Okay. We are fine. 17 THE FOREPERSON: We do have one? 18 MR. IREY: Yes, we do. 19 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 20 Q MR. IREY: I don't think I asked. We 21 asked Ms. Tina Wolin. Does your business pull 22 underground storage tanks? 23 A No, we don't. 24 Q Did you buy any dry ice that weekend? 25 A No. 504 1 GRAND JUROR: You just asked the question I wrote 2 down. 3 THE FOREPERSON: That was the only question 4 then? 5 GRAND JUROR: Yes, that was the only question I 6 asked. Maybe you can find something else. 7 Q BY MR. IREY: I can't ask you what is in 8 your mind. But on May 1st, did you know if the permit 9 was legal for storage tank? 10 A No. 11 Q You didn't know one way or the other? 12 A No, I didn't -- I didn't know. All I knew 13 about the job was that Mondani was moving the excavator 14 to it. When he walked in and asked me to fill it out, 15 all I knew was our excavator was being moved down there. 16 Q You didn't know whether it was being 17 rented or loaned? 18 A I didn't know whether it was rented. 19 Whether we are the contractor on nor or not depends on 20 what our agreement is. I had no knowledge of what any 21 agreement was. 22 Which is why I, in hindsight, should not 23 have put this information on this without checking with 24 someone that knew. 25 Q And sometimes Bill E. Wolin makes these 505 1 types of decisions and doesn't pass it on to you as 2 quickly as you would like, correct? 3 A Yeah. Then I was like, rush, rush. Got 4 to do this tomorrow. Do this right now. It was 5 lunchtime. 6 Q Bob Womack is kind of a rush, rush guy. 7 Yes? No? Do you know? 8 A It didn't surprise me this was a rush, 9 rush. 10 Q He has borrowed your equipment before? 11 A Yes. 12 Q In fact, he has gotten you guys in trouble 13 before, if you know, about using excavators on his 14 property and County people call into your office and ask, 15 What's your excavator doing up there? 16 A I am not aware of that. 17 MR. IREY: Okay. Other questions? Okay. 18 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 19 to any person except as directed by the Court what 20 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 21 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 22 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 23 appearance before the Grand Jury. 24 This admonition continues unless and until 25 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 506 1 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 2 punishable as contempt of court. 3 This does not prevent you from discussing 4 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 5 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 6 Grand Jury. 7 If I could have you -- 8 THE WITNESS: How do we know when the time is up 9 and we can talk? 10 MR. IREY: The Grand Jury record becomes public 11 ten days after an arraignment, if there is an 12 indictment. So that's kind of a legalistic answer. 13 THE WITNESS: Thanks a lot. 14 MR. IREY: Hypothetically, if we finish sometime 15 next week and the Grand Jury returns a indictment, then 16 within ten days, a person is arraigned. And ten days 17 after that, these entire proceedings become public 18 record. 19 THE WITNESS: So when we see in the local paper 20 that there is an indictment? 21 MR. IREY: That's a little premature, what's been 22 going on in the paper lately. I would wait until -- 23 THE FOREPERSON: February? 24 MR. IREY: -- after that. You can check with 25 Investigator Hall. Did I say Investigator? Strike that. 507 1 We haven't quite figured out how to 2 gracefully let people out yet. Do you want to go for ten 3 minutes right now? Do you want to keep going one more 4 witness? 5 GRAND JUROR: I will stay here. 6 THE FOREPERSON: Is that all right, Jan? One 7 more witness then. 8 MR. IREY: Star witness. Billy -- William A. 9 Wolin. 10 THE FOREPERSON: If you would remain standing 11 and raise your right hand, please. 12 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 13 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 14 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 15 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 18 19 (TIME NOTED: 2:58 p.m.) 20 ---oOo--- 21 WILLIAM A. WOLIN 22 Called as a witness herein by the People, 23 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 24 and testified as follows: 25 508 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. IREY: 3 Q You can have a seat. 4 Mr. Wolin, you are kind of quiet 5 sometimes. You have to speak all the way so the people 6 in the back can hear you. Okay? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Louder than that. 9 And you have to speak clearly and answer 10 so that the court reporter can write down everything. 11 Okay? 12 A Yes. 13 Q A little louder, please. 14 A Yes. 15 Q You are going to testify -- 16 THE FOREPERSON: That's not on. 17 Q BY MR. IREY: You are going to testify 18 truthfully today? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Across the board? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Every single thing you remember? 23 A Correct. 24 Q And you and I and your father have reached 25 an agreement, correct? 509 1 A Correct. 2 Q And that agreement involves several 3 things, correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q Louder, please. 6 A Correct. 7 Q And that agreement is related to actions 8 at 505 Sutter Street, correct? 9 A Correct. 10 Q But in your testimony today, you are going 11 to testify truthfully, not because you have the deal, but 12 because you agreed to testify truthfully, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q So with that said, could you explain to 15 the Grand Jurors and myself what your current 16 understanding is of the agreement we have reached. 17 A 40-Hour OSHA class, three-year probation. 18 Is that correct? 19 Q I can't answer questions. But I will 20 ask -- I will do it this way: 21 Will you enter a plea to a crime? 22 A Correct, yes. 23 Q Will that be a misdemeanor? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And will that plea be called held in 510 1 abeyance so you are actually not convicted? 2 A Correct. 3 Q But you will have $13,500 fine hanging 4 over your head, correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q So if you have any other problems in the 7 next three years, you owe $13,500 automatically, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q You are not going to do that, correct? 10 A Correct. 11 Q And additionally, you have agreed to a 12 civil case, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And part of that is that your business and 15 your father's business will comply with hazardous waste 16 laws? 17 A Correct. 18 Q Hazardous material laws? 19 A Correct. 20 Q Underground storage tank laws? 21 A Correct. 22 Q As part of that judgment, you and your 23 father's business have agreed to train all of your heavy 24 equipment operators in safe handling of hazardous waste, 25 hazardous material and underground storage tanks? 511 1 A Correct. 2 Q And when I say all of your father's 3 full-time heavy equipment operators, we are chatting 4 about whether that means permanent full time or full 5 time, correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q In fact, these documents that I promised 8 you a week ago, you just got at 1:00 at lunch today, 9 correct? 10 A Correct. 11 Q So although we had hoped to have all of 12 this wrapped up and finalized before today, it's not 13 something that you and your father did; it's something 14 that the prosecution -- prosecutor's office failed to do, 15 correct? 16 A Right. 17 Q But right now, sitting here today, you 18 think we have a tentative agreement, correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q And so your father's business and your 21 business -- we just learned that you own part of the 22 business, and that your brother owns -- or you are an 23 officer. I don't know who owns what, but you are an 24 officer -- is to train your employees. But on top of 25 that, then you are actually going to take a 40-hour 512 1 federally required hazardous waste worker training, 2 correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q So you miss a week of work, correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q You have to pay the $1,000 or whatever it 7 costs for the class, correct? 8 A Correct. Or the company. 9 Q Right. And then Wolin and Sons is going 10 to donate $2,000 of publications to Amador County 11 Environmental Health to be used for education and 12 training of local businesses in the safe handling of 13 underground storage tanks, hazardous materials and 14 hazardous wastes, correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And that's the package. You are going to 17 comply with the law as an individual, correct? 18 A Correct. 19 Q Wolin and Sons is going to comply with the 20 law as a business, correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And you are not going to violate these 23 statutory schemes again, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q You are going to work toward it? 513 1 A Correct. 2 Q And if you blow it, you owe a lot of 3 money? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And you know that? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did you pull a tank on that weekend? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Did you tell us for months that you didn't 10 know where you put it? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And did you eventually remember where you 13 put it? 14 A Correct. 15 Q Do you remember whose truck and trailer 16 you put it on? 17 A Sherrill's. 18 Q Whose? 19 A Sherrill. 20 Q Has to be a lot louder. These people in 21 the back have been waiting to hear your testimony for a 22 week. 23 A Sherrill. 24 Q Who is Sherrill? 25 A I believe a trucking contracting 514 1 construction company. 2 Q Do you remember his first name? 3 A Mark. 4 Q Okay. Your wife told us that you used to 5 vacation with the Womacks. Is that true? 6 A Correct. 7 Q You worked that weekend as an hourly 8 employee of who? 9 A Womack. 10 Q Womack being Robert Womack? 11 A Correct. 12 Q But you were paid by KRL, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Do you know who KRL is? 15 A I believe it's Kim, Roland and Larry. 16 Q That's who it stands for? 17 A I believe so. 18 Q And Kim, Roland and Larry -- to your 19 knowledge, those are Mr. Womack's children with his wife 20 June? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And Mr. Womack has another child? 23 A Correct. 24 Q And his name is? 25 A Luke. 515 1 Q And do you know if Luke has a different 2 mother than Larry, Kimberly and -- if you know. If you 3 don't know, don't answer. Don't say, I heard. 4 Do you know if Luke has a different 5 mother? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And different mother than June? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Okay. And do you know who owns KRL 10 Partnership? 11 A No. 12 Q Did you know Luke before that weekend? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. This has been marked Grand Jury 15 Exhibit No. 31. It's a check made out to you. Do you 16 remember when you received that check? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And who gave you that check? 19 A Robert Womack. 20 Q And did he give it to you on May 3rd? 21 A Mmmm... Which is a Sunday? 22 Q Yeah. 23 A Correct. 24 Q So he gave it to you at the completion of 25 the job? 516 1 A Correct. 2 Q Basically said, How much do I owe you? 3 A Correct. 4 Q You need to give fuller answers so I don't 5 have to -- it would appear in a transcript that I am 6 providing you with your testimony. I would rather you 7 just testify on your own. Okay? 8 A Yes. He -- he asked me, How much? And we 9 agreed on a price. 10 Q Okay. And what did you do for your $600 11 that weekend? 12 A We moved the gas station, just tore it 13 down and loaded it into trucks. And then removed the 14 fuel tank and loaded it onto a truck. 15 Q Truck and trailer? 16 A Correct. 17 Q Okay. We are going to go through the 18 specifics of that weekend a little bit more. 19 How do you know that the person that hired 20 you is Robert Womack? 21 A Mmmm... 22 Q I can ask a different question. Do you 23 know Robert Womack? 24 A Yes. 25 Q How long have you known Robert Womack? 517 1 A Thirteen, fifteen years. 2 Q How often have you vacationed with Robert 3 Womack? 4 A Two, three times. 5 Q And you have worked for him in the past? 6 A Correct. 7 Q Both under contract through your father 8 and as an hourly employee? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And the weekend before the tank came out, 11 how late in the week -- I apologize. 12 The week before the tank came out, how far 13 ahead of time were you contacted by Robert Womack? 14 A I believe it was one or two days. 15 Q And Robert Womack said, Could you work 16 this weekend? 17 A Correct. 18 Q And you said no? Or you said yes? 19 A Yes. 20 Q You said yes because your dad kind of told 21 you that it would be nice if you helped Robert out? Or 22 how come you took the job? 23 A Mmmm... Well, he had asked me and also my 24 father had asked me if I could work. And usually, if I 25 don't have things pending, I will usually work. 518 1 Q Did you have something pending that 2 weekend? 3 A Yeah. I did have plans. 4 Q Remember, your wife was in here earlier. 5 And what were those plans? 6 A I think it was a family get-together -- 7 excuse me -- get-together. I think it might have been 8 Ione homecoming. 9 Q Was her family get-together? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You didn't work on purpose, did you? 12 A No. 13 Q You have to answer truthfully here. 14 A No. 15 Q And so you worked -- did you work at all 16 on Friday? 17 A Not there. 18 Q And on Saturday morning, did you meet for 19 breakfast? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Why don't you give us a narrative, and I 22 will ask questions after that. 23 Let's start, you got out of bed on 24 Saturday. What happened? 25 A We met at breakfast and talked about 519 1 removing the tank -- I'm sorry -- removing the gas 2 station. 3 Q You are going to need to speak way up. 4 Just suck it up and think you are hearing heavy 5 equipment. You've got to go for it. 6 When you just corrected yourself, which is 7 the case? In the morning, did you talk about removing 8 the underground storage tank? 9 A No. It was removing the gas station and 10 dismantling it. 11 Q Keep going. So you ate breakfast. Who 12 was at breakfast? 13 A There was Bob Womack. I believe Luke 14 Womack, June Womack, Mark Sherrill and this other driver 15 Nick. And I believe my father also. 16 Q Okay. You met there at 6:00 a.m. or so? 17 A Yes. 18 Q I am not testifying. Is that what time 19 you met? Or do you know? 20 A That's to the best of my knowledge, it was 21 6:00. 22 Q Okay. And then after breakfast -- during 23 breakfast, did you guys have a conversation about the 24 underground storage tank? 25 A Mmmm... Not between me and him, no. I 520 1 don't recall him talking about it. No. 2 Q Okay. You realize this is pretty 3 important part of your testimony. 4 Tell us whether or not you saw Mr. Womack 5 go to everybody at Mel's that day and ask them if they 6 wanted the tank? 7 A No, I did not see that. 8 Q You did not see it? 9 A No. 10 Q Did you see Mr. Womack get up and walk 11 around and talk to people? 12 A I don't know. I do not. 13 Q You don't remember or you did not see it? 14 A I did not see him get up and walk around 15 talking to people. 16 Q Did he ask you if you wanted the tank? 17 A No. 18 Q Were you sitting next to your Dad? 19 A No, no. 20 Q Did you hear him asking the guy on your 21 left or the gal on your right if they wanted the 22 underground tank? 23 A No. 24 Q Okay. You finished eating breakfast and 25 you went directly to 505 Sutter Street? 521 1 A Yes. 2 Q Four or five blocks? Maybe three blocks? 3 A Yeah. 4 Q That's a long drive. Took you what? 45 5 seconds? 6 A Yeah, a minute. 7 Q Okay. And then you arrived and you 8 immediately started working? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And it was just you and whom working at 11 that point? 12 A At that point, it was just myself tearing 13 down a gas station. Bob was there and the trucks were 14 there. And I believe Luke was there. 15 Q Early? 16 A I believe so. 17 Q Okay. When you worked for Wolin and Sons 18 during your 8:00 to 5:00 and -- 7:00 a.m., Monday through 19 Friday and weekends, when you work on highways, do you 20 get permits to obstruct traffic? 21 A I believe so. 22 Q Okay. 23 A I am not familiar with all the paperwork, 24 but yes. 25 Q Do you do highway work yourself? Or are 522 1 you foreman on different type of jobs? 2 A I am foreman operator on different types 3 of jobs. 4 Q You are not doing much highway work? 5 A No. 6 Q So you don't get permits yourself for 7 doing highway work? 8 A No. Not myself. 9 Q You talked to Womack about some safety 10 issues, did you not? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Hard hats? 13 A The traffic on 49. In fact, I did put up 14 some signs just before operating. And I -- I had told 15 him, I think, the day before, it would be a good idea to 16 have a flag person along 49. And there was not that 17 person. So Bob did some of it himself. 18 Q Okay. I am going to play the videotape 19 that you have already seen, but not ask you questions 20 about it. I am going to keep asking you questions. That 21 way the Grand Jurors have something to do. It's been a 22 long week for them. It's going to remind me to ask 23 questions. 24 Do you remember who Bob said would be the 25 flag person? 523 1 A I believe he was going to have Tony 2 Hernandez. 3 Q Okay. Because he told you that's who he 4 was going to have? 5 A Yes. I think he was going to try to have 6 him there. 7 Q So Womack told you he was going to have a 8 flag person? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Didn't show? 11 A No. He did later on, but then left. 12 Q Didn't do much flagging that day? 13 A Right. 14 Q Okay. So you started knocking down the 15 building. That doesn't take you very long, correct? 16 A Correct. 17 Q Most of the work -- you are an excavator 18 operator by trade, correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q And this piece of equipment on the 21 excavator is something that your business is trying to 22 get patented, correct? 23 A I believe they have. 24 Q They have got it now? 25 A I believe. 524 1 Q And the idea behind it is, it's able to 2 pick up cars and move them, pick up trees and move them; 3 and you don't have to actually switch attachments quite 4 as often, correct? 5 A Well, it's switchable attachment, but it 6 was quick. Quick and easy. 7 Q So it's quick and easy, and so you have 8 less down time? 9 A Correct. 10 Q Okay. So you knocked down this building. 11 Did you do an asbestos check on this building before you 12 started? 13 A Not myself, per se. 14 Q Okay. And you loaded the material most of 15 Saturday into trucks owned -- or trucks that had names on 16 them? 17 A Yes. The one did. I don't -- 18 Q You don't think the gold one did? 19 A I don't think the gold one does. 20 Q You loaded them into a red truck and a 21 gold truck? 22 A Correct. 23 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 24 No. 20. 25 Do you recognize the person operating that 525 1 piece of equipment? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Is that you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And is that the truck you were loading 6 debris into? 7 A Correct. 8 Q And that's called a ten-wheeler? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And this has been marked Grand Jury 11 Exhibit No. 19. 12 Besides the excavator operator, do you 13 recognize those guys not in hard hats? 14 A Correct, yes. 15 Q And who are they? 16 A Bob Womack and Mark Sherrill. 17 Q Mark Sherrill in the green? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And do you recognize the vehicle in the 20 bottom right-hand corner? 21 A Yes. That's Bob's vehicle. 22 Q And that's a Navigator? 23 A Correct. 24 Q Was Mrs. June Womack there that day? 25 A Yes. 526 1 Q Was she videotaping it? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Have you seen the videotape? 4 A Yes. Different. 5 Q Different videotapes? 6 A Correct. 7 Q How many videotapes have you seen? 8 A Two. 9 Q The first couple of times we met, you saw 10 the short version of the videotape, correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And we asked you, is this when June 13 stopped videotaping, where it goes to akido, correct? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And you didn't remember? Or do you know 16 the answer? Or do you remember? 17 A No, I don't know the answer when she 18 stopped. 19 Q Okay. And so all day, you are loading 20 trucks. At some point, do you remember Mark telling 21 Womack that the debris no longer had to go to the dump, 22 that he would take it to his property? 23 A No. I wasn't part of that conversation. 24 Q But at some point, you told Investigator 25 Hall that the trucks were coming back so fast, you 527 1 couldn't keep them loaded; is that correct? 2 A I believe so. 3 Q You believe you told Investigator Hall 4 that? Or you believe that's what happened? 5 A That -- that I knew that was happening. 6 Q And how far is it to the dump at Buena 7 Vista landfill? 8 A I think 45 -- at least an hour. 9 Q Round trip? 10 A Round trip. 11 Q And were the trucks coming back more 12 frequently than that? 13 A Yes. 14 Q In the afternoon? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And on Sunday? 17 A Yes. 18 Q About two days ago -- I apologize. About 19 two weeks ago, for the first time, you told us that you 20 worked on Sunday, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And that approximately is the time that we 23 reached our agreement, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q Okay. And so the second video you saw was 528 1 a longer video. You recently saw that for the first 2 time, correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q That had substantially more tank removal 5 videotape; is that correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q And you knew that earlier this week? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And it showed you handling the underground 10 storage tank, correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Okay. After you loaded most of the 13 demolition debris on the trucks on Saturday, the 2nd, did 14 you think you were almost done for the day? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Then what happened? 17 A Bob asked me to dig out the tank and 18 remove it. 19 Q And did you have a chat with Bob at that 20 point? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Again, you are under oath. You are going 23 to testify truthfully, correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Tell us everything that you discussed. 529 1 A I told Bob that -- not knowing the rules, 2 myself, but that there is paperwork involved, probably a 3 permit process and inspection of removing a tank. 4 And he reassured me that he had taken care 5 of all of that with the City. And he had told me that he 6 got a permit to remove the gas station to build another 7 structure. And that he had taken care of removing 8 everything. 9 And I -- I talked to him, just let him -- 10 to the best of my knowledge, tried to make him understand 11 that there is a different set of rules in removing a tank 12 than demoing a building. 13 Q Did you mention hazardous waste to him? 14 A Yes. That there is hazardous waste. 15 Q Did he make some comment about the weather 16 or the time of day? 17 A Mmmm... Yes. He wanted to get it done 18 before it got dark. 19 Q He basically said, Just get to it? 20 A Yeah. He wanted to get going, get it done 21 before it got dark on us. 22 Q Is that the first time that day you heard 23 you were going to remove the underground storage tank? 24 A Yes. 25 Q You thought you were just demoing the 530 1 building when you got up on Saturday morning? 2 A Correct. 3 Q He didn't mention it to you on Friday? 4 A No. 5 Q He didn't mention it to you at breakfast 6 on Saturday? 7 A No. 8 Q He didn't mention it to you at lunch on 9 Saturday? 10 A No. He had talked about how to remove the 11 tank, but not actually telling me I am going to remove 12 the tank. 13 Q When you talked about how to remove the 14 tank, what kind of things did you talk about? 15 A Digging around it or putting water -- if 16 the tank was empty, if you put water around it, it 17 becomes buoyant. 18 Q And you would be able to float it out? 19 A Float it out, yes. 20 Q So you guys talked about this? 21 A Yes, there was some discussion about it. 22 Q So he was going to put water in the hole? 23 A Well, no. I think that was something my 24 dad had seen before. 25 Q Okay. So you and your dad and Bob were 531 1 just talking about how tanks can be taken out of the 2 ground? 3 A Yes. 4 Q But at that point, did you tell him about 5 these rules? Or was it later in the day? 6 A It was later, just before the we removed 7 it. 8 Q You were scraping the sides around the 9 tank? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So it was after you started taking the 12 overburden off the tank, but before you got ready to pull 13 it? 14 A No. I believe it was just before I was 15 digging around the tank. 16 Q Did you have any conversations that day 17 with Mark Sherrill about, What are we doing still 18 working? Or anything like that? Or did everybody just 19 buck up and start pulling the tank? 20 A We just pretty much bucked up and started. 21 Q Okay. In July of '98, Ron Hall 22 interviewed you on the phone. Do you remember that? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And then Ron Hall asked you how you were 25 paid. And you said you were paid cash for your services, 532 1 which could have been cash or check, correct? 2 A Correct. 3 Q And you were operating Wolin and Sons' 4 equipment, correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q But was this a Wolin and Sons job? 7 A No. 8 Q Your dad loans equipment to his friends 9 once in a while, correct? 10 A Correct. 11 Q This one came back to bite him, correct? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Was your dad paid for this? 14 A Understandably not. 15 Q Bill said it was really close to 7:00 p.m. 16 when they finally removed the tank. Is that what you 17 remember telling Investigator Hall in July? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Bill said it was just about dark and 20 pouring down rain. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Is that true? 23 A Yes. 24 Q So when the tank actually -- 25 A It was dark because it was raining. 533 1 Q It was dark because it was raining? 2 A I mean, it was getting late in the day and 3 it was getting dark. 4 Q Was it pouring down rain? 5 A There was a time there it was coming down 6 real hard. 7 Q Okay. All of my questions, if they are 8 not specific enough, I will re-ask. That's what I am 9 going to here. 10 When you pulled the tank out of the 11 ground, loaded it on the truck, was it pouring down rain? 12 A Well, I don't think it was pouring down at 13 that moment. 14 Q Okay. And you see in the video all the 15 way to the end, that long video, correct? 16 A Correct. 17 Q And at that point, you hear June's voice 18 in the background saying, "It's starting to rain again," 19 correct? 20 A Correct. 21 Q And at that point you have already dug on 22 both sides of the tank and you have a chain on the tank 23 and it's coming out of the ground, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q Was it raining then? 534 1 A Yes. 2 Q Not very hard? 3 A No. 4 Q The street wasn't wet, if you recall? 5 A I -- seems like it I recall it being wet. 6 Q Okay. And then the next sentence, 7 Investigator Hall's report, it says: "Bill said he did 8 not really get a good look at the truck or trailer that 9 he loaded the tank onto due to the lateness of the day, 10 the dark and the rain." 11 Did you tell Investigator Hall that? 12 A Yes. 13 Q But? 14 A It was a Sherrill truck. 15 Q So was there any reason that you decided 16 to tell the District Attorney's Office false information, 17 Mr. Wolin? 18 A Yes. Bob had came to me, I think, a 19 couple days later, and asked me, if anybody comes around 20 asking, I believe, with the County, that do -- not to 21 tell them, that we do not know who took the tank, who you 22 loaded it onto. 23 Q Okay. I need to you explain this entire 24 story. 25 The first time you told the story, you had 535 1 some kind of hand motions, although the court reporter 2 can't put those down, I would like you to go into. 3 Bob came to you. Where were you? 4 A At my job with Wolin and Sons on Ridge 5 Road. 6 Q On where? 7 A Ridge Road. 8 Q Okay. So, and what -- you need to speak 9 up for all of these people. Again, they have been 10 waiting all week for you. 11 You were at your job. Bob came 12 specifically to talk about? 13 A To -- yes, to not tell anybody who I 14 loaded the tank onto. 15 Q Did you ask him something about that? Did 16 you throw up your arms and say? 17 A Yeah. I asked him, Why? 18 And he said that him and Mark had told 19 them that they did not know who took the tank. And he 20 said just go along with that story. 21 Q And when you told us the story for the 22 first time, you threw up your arm and you said -- is it 23 true that you said something about, I threw up my arms 24 and I said, How could I not tell them what I saw? 25 A Correct. 536 1 Q And he gave you a story. What was the 2 story you were supposed to tell? 3 A I loaded trucks all day long. And 4 different trucks were coming in and out. And different 5 people are in and out. That it -- something that you 6 could not, you know, very possible, not remember. It 7 just happens to be, you know, one of the moments. 8 And I told him that, How could, you 9 know -- myself, you know, if the question is asked, how 10 could I not know what kind of vehicle it was or what kind 11 of truck? 12 Q And he said? 13 A Well, because all day long, being loading 14 trucks and loading so many loads, it was just being one 15 of those loads. You know, do you remember which load 16 that you loaded this or that? Or, you know, can't -- you 17 know, you don't -- you know, how could -- you know, you 18 probably couldn't remember. 19 Q Did you talk about anything else during 20 that conversation other than what you are supposed to 21 tell people who ask? 22 A I don't think so. 23 MR. IREY: I don't think we are going to finish 24 in the next 15 minutes with Mr. Wolin. If the Grand 25 Jurors would like to take a break now for whatever time 537 1 you determine, we will do it that way. 2 THE FOREPERSON: What's everybody need? 3 GRAND JUROR: Ten. 4 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Let me read your recess 5 admonition first, and then we will be back here at 3:40. 6 The Grand Jurors are admonished that they 7 are not to form or express any opinions about this case 8 or discuss it among themselves until the Grand Jury 9 receives the case -- excuse me. 10 Should I be reading to him his? 11 MR. IREY: Sure. 12 THE FOREPERSON: Then read the -- excuse me. 13 This is directed for you until we come 14 back: You are admonished not to reveal to any person 15 except as directed by the Court what questions were asked 16 or what responses were given or any other matters 17 concerning the nature or subject of the Grand Jury's 18 investigation that you learned during your appearance 19 before the Grand Jury. 20 This admonition continues unless and until 21 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury 22 proceedings is made public. Violation of this admonition 23 is punishable as contempt of court. 24 This does not prevent you from discussing 25 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 538 1 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 2 Grand Jury. 3 The Grand Jurors are admonished that they 4 are not to form or express any opinions about this case 5 or discuss it amongst themselves until the Grand Jury 6 receives the case for deliberation. 7 In addition, no inspection of evidence 8 should be conducted without the permission of the 9 Foreperson and on the advice of the prosecuting attorney. 10 A violation of this rule could result in a charge of 11 contempt against the Grand Juror who would investigate or 12 view any matters with regard to this case without the 13 entire body of the Grand Jury. 14 Thank you and we will convene at 3:40. 15 (Recess taken at 3:32 p.m.) 16 MR. IREY: Call Damian Wolin. He will probably 17 only be a two- or three-minute witness. 18 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Wolin, if you would remain 19 standing and raise your right hand, please. 20 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 21 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 22 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 23 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 24 THE WITNESS: I do. 25 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 539 1 (TIME NOTED: 3:42 P.M.) 2 ---oOo--- 3 DAMION WOLIN 4 Called as a witness herein by the People, 5 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 6 and testified as follows: 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. IREY: 9 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Wolin. I am David 10 Irey. I have a few questions for you regarding the 11 underground storage tank pull at 505 Sutter Street. 12 Okay? 13 A Yes. 14 Q This is the first time we met? 15 A Yes. 16 Q You have never seen the videotapes of the 17 underground storage tank pull? 18 A I have not. 19 Q You are the President of Wolin and Sons? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you rent your equipment to Bob Womack 22 on May 2nd and 3rd, 1998? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you rent the equipment -- 25 A I found out Friday. 540 1 Q Friday before? 2 A Friday before. 3 Q And you were just moving the excavator 4 down to -- if you know, you hired Mondani to move the 5 excavator? 6 A We did not make arrangements to move it. 7 Q Who made the arrangements? 8 A I believe Bob did. 9 Q Bob Womack? 10 A Yes. 11 Q How long have you known Bob Womack? 12 A Approximately ten years. 13 Q Do you know if you were paid for the use 14 of that excavator? 15 A I -- I assume so. I mean, I haven't seen 16 the check. 17 Q But you don't know one way or the other? 18 A Our controller would be the one to ask. 19 Q Okay. And you didn't help with any of the 20 demolition that weekend? 21 A No. 22 Q Are you pretty much in the office or are 23 you jack-of-all-trades? 24 A I probably work -- most of my time is 25 spent in the office. It depends on our workload and the 541 1 availability of resources. 2 Q Okay. So did you authorize anyone to use 3 your Workmen's Comp insurance number that weekend? 4 A I did not. 5 Q Did Bob Womack ask you if he could use 6 your Workmen's Comp insurance? 7 A I did not talk to Bob about that. 8 Q Do you remember when he came to talk to 9 Michael? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did you and Bob actually have 12 conversations? 13 A Yes. We talked briefly. He was there 14 before I got to the office. 15 Q You got there after lunch? 16 A Yes. 17 Q He was there? 18 A Yes. 19 Q They were talking? 20 A Yes. 21 Q You talked about what? 22 A He had a little insignia on the back of 23 his truck. It was a Darwin fish. 24 Q Okay. 25 A First time I had ever seen one. I made a 542 1 comment about it. 2 Q Okay. 3 A And we yakked about it a little bit. That 4 was the extent of our conversation. 5 Q Didn't talk about the demolition? 6 A Well, a little bit about that. Because I 7 was surprised we were moving the equipment out because it 8 was currently being used on another job. 9 Q From the old mill down there? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And you were surprised that your dad had 12 told Bob it was okay? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Because someone was supposed to use the 15 equipment somewhere else? 16 A To my knowledge, we were still working 17 there at the mill. 18 Q And normally, you don't move equipment 19 that you are using out? 20 A Not for a project like that. 21 Q Okay. And at some point, did you learn 22 that your Workmen's Comp number had been used by Bob 23 Womack? 24 A Several months -- I believe several months 25 later, Bill mentioned it. 543 1 Q Bill Junior? 2 A Bill Senior. 3 Q Your father? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. And the people in the business 6 now -- you are the president? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Who are the vice presidents? 9 A Bill and Bob Wolin. 10 Q And who is secretary? 11 A Michael Quinn. 12 Q And are there other brothers for Wolin and 13 Sons, your father's generation? 14 A There are two other sons. There's Jason, 15 which is Bob Wolin's son. And Bill Junior, which is Bill 16 Senior's son, which is my Dad's. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Bill has two sons. 19 Q Bill has two sons? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q And one of them is Bill Junior or Bill A.? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And you are the other one? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. And you had nothing to do with the 544 1 demolition? You, personally? 2 A I didn't have anything to do with it. 3 Q You didn't authorize the Workmen's Comp 4 number to be used by Bob Womack? 5 A No. 6 Q Do you give your Workmen's Comp number to 7 other people to use? 8 A Not to my knowledge. 9 Q You personally don't authorize your 10 Workmen's Comp number to be passed around, correct? 11 A This is true. 12 MR. IREY: I have no further questions. We just 13 needed to tie up, was there anybody at Wolin and Sons 14 that authorized the use of the Workmen's Comp number? 15 That's why we brought you in as a witness. 16 At this point, you haven't been briefed. 17 Any Member of the Grand Jury can ask a question. They 18 provide it to me in writing and I ask you. Okay? 19 Does anyone have a question? 20 GRAND JUROR: Yes, I do. 21 MR. IREY: Okay. 22 Q If you know, how would Bob Womack have 23 been able to get Wolin and Sons Workmen's Comp number? 24 A Do I know how? 25 Q If you know, how would Bob Womack have 545 1 been able to get Wolin and Sons Workmen's Comp number? 2 A I don't know. 3 Q Were you later told who gave it to him? 4 A Well, I -- that information may have come 5 from some forms Michael filled out. 6 Q Okay. Who delivered the equipment to the 7 site and who were they paid by, if you know? 8 A I don't know for sure, but I believe 9 Mondani hauled the equipment. 10 Q That's Doug Mondani? 11 A Doug Mondani. 12 Q How were they paid, if you know? 13 A I do not know. 14 Q If you authorized the equipment to be 15 used, why then was there no Workmen's Comp? 16 A A rental basis. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Generally, we don't need Workmen's Comp 19 because, technically, we are not the ones operating it. 20 Because I don't know if it was going to be our operator. 21 If it was, we would have to have Workmen's Comp for he 22 was going to operate it himself or have some other person 23 operate it. 24 Q If it was your operator using your 25 equipment, would it be your Workmen's Comp., correct? 546 1 A I am not that familiar with it. But I 2 assume our operator would have to be covered, so yes. 3 Q But if it was a weekend job done by your 4 equipment being rented out, then that person who hired 5 the excavator and the employees would have to have their 6 own Workmen's Comp? 7 A If it was someone else, I believe so. 8 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions? 9 THE WITNESS: I don't think it's something, the 10 type of equipment. It's something with the operator or 11 the owner. 12 Q BY MR. IREY: The owner of the -- 13 A The user, I should say. For example, if 14 we rent a piece of equipment, they don't give us 15 insurance for the equipment, to my knowledge. 16 Q Okay. If you know, how much did you rent 17 the equipment for? 18 A I do not know. 19 Q Do you rent your equipment very often? 20 A Not very often. 21 MR. IREY: Any other questions? 22 At this time -- oh, we have one. 23 Q Were you aware of the job William A. was 24 going to be doing on Saturday with your equipment? If 25 you remember? 547 1 A I wasn't sure that he would be doing it. 2 Q You didn't know who was going to be using 3 your equipment? 4 A I didn't know who would be operating it. 5 MR. IREY: If there are no further questions of 6 the Grand Jury, then the Grand Jury Foreman will admonish 7 you regarding your testimony here today. Okay? 8 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 9 to any person except as directed by the Court what 10 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 11 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 12 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 13 appearance before the Grand Jury. 14 This admonition continues unless and until 15 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 16 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 17 punishable as contempt of Court. 18 This does not prevent you from discussing 19 this matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 20 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 21 Grand Jury. 22 Sir, if I could get you to sign and date 23 that I read you that admonition, right there. Thank you 24 very much. 25 MR. IREY: Thank you for your time, Mr. Wolin. 548 1 THE WITNESS: You are welcome. 2 THE FOREPERSON: I will remind you that you are 3 still under oath. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 6 7 (TIME NOTED: 3:54 P.M.) 8 ---oOo--- 9 WILLIAM A. WOLIN 10 Recalled as a witness herein by the People, 11 having been previously duly sworn to tell the truth, 12 resumed the stand and was examined and testified as 13 follows: 14 CONTINUED EXAMINATION 15 BY MR.. IREY. 16 Q Thank you for allowing the additional 17 witness. 18 You were explaining, there -- are you 19 brothers or half-brothers? 20 A Half. 21 Q And he calls your dad Bill? 22 A Dad. 23 Q Calls him Dad? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q Okay. 549 1 A But business-wise, it's Bill. 2 Q Were there some Bobs in there somewhere? 3 A My uncle. 4 Q Okay. Do you have an Uncle Bob, a father 5 Bill and a half brother Damian? 6 A Correct. 7 Q Okay. You were explaining right before 8 you left that Mr. Womack came up and had a visit with you 9 a couple days after. 10 How do you remember that it was a couple 11 days after the weekend's work? 12 A Can you repeat that? 13 Q Okay. Just before the break, you were 14 testifying regarding a visit Mr. Womack had with you 15 upon, I think you said, Ridge Road. Do you remember 16 that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Again, speak up for all the way in the 19 back. 20 GRAND JUROR: He needs to understand he is 21 talking to all of us in here. 22 MR. IREY: Okay. 23 GRAND JUROR: Because he is mumbling. 24 Q BY MR. IREY: Okay. Is this your first 25 time testifying? 550 1 A Yes. 2 Q Just speak up like you are at a softball 3 game rooting for your children or something. Go, Grand 4 Jurors. Okay, please. Can you try? It's really 5 important. 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. So go ahead and explain to the 8 Grand Jurors -- you are not explaining this to me; I have 9 heard this story before -- about the visit with Mr. 10 Womack, what, if anything, else he said to you when he 11 came up to Ridge Road. 12 A Well, he just, like I was saying before, 13 told me, if anybody from -- you know, asks questions on 14 who took the tank, that him and Mark had told them that 15 it was -- they don't know. It was a stranger. They do 16 not know who took the tank. And to tell them the same 17 thing, that you do not know who took the tank. 18 Q We interviewed Mark earlier this week. 19 And you haven't seen that interview. 20 When we interviewed Mark, he said that 21 there wasn't a plan not to tell the authorities the 22 truth. Are you sure that Womack mentioned to you that 23 Mark and him had reached this agreement that they were 24 going to tell the we don't know where the tank went 25 story? 551 1 A Yes. 2 Q You are positive? 3 A Yes. Bob told me that him and Mark. 4 Q But Mark never told you that? 5 A No. 6 Q But Mark did tell you something pretty 7 interesting one time, correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And what was that? 10 A I had mentioned to him where the tank 11 went. And he basically told me it went somewhere and 12 never be found. That was basically how he left it. 13 Q Did he tell you, Don't worry. It will 14 never be found? Or do you remember the exact words? 15 A I don't quite remember the exact words. 16 But I think it was, basically, it would never be found. 17 Q Other than that one conversation up on 18 Ridge Road where he told you not to tell people what you 19 remembered about the underground storage tank leaving the 20 site that day, did you have any other conversations with 21 Bob Womack about that? 22 A Yes. There was another time over the 23 phone that I told him if -- if this thing goes to court, 24 that I would not be able to -- before a court be able to 25 say I don't know who or -- you know, who took the tank, 552 1 what kind of truck. 2 Q And was that back in May? Or was that 3 later this summer? 4 A Mmmm... That was later this summer. 5 Q Was it before the meeting in September at 6 the county building or after that? 7 A After. 8 Q So did Bob call you? Or did you call Bob? 9 A Mmmm... Bob had called me one time, and I 10 returned his call. Or actually, no. This was the 11 second -- this is after the visit with my wife. 12 Q So it was after the phone message to your 13 wife, correct? 14 A Correct. 15 Q Then he came by and was looking for you, 16 correct? 17 A Correct. 18 Q After that, you had a conversation on the 19 phone? 20 A Correct. 21 Q And that conversation, did you call Bob or 22 did Bob call you? 23 A I called Bob. 24 Q And you said, Bob, I want to talk to you? 25 A Well, he wanted to talk to me. So I 553 1 returned his call. 2 He wanted to know why my dad would not 3 speak to him, why he was so upset, why he ignores him, 4 basically walked out of a restaurant that he came into. 5 And I explained to him that he was not 6 happy with him for putting the company name, license 7 number, insurance number or whatever on the permit. And 8 Bob said that he just went into our office to get -- the 9 City needed to know whose equipment -- 10 Q Again, you are testifying to what your 11 father told you Bob said? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Or did Bob actually tell you this? 14 A Well, Bob did tell me that. 15 Q You can testify to what Bob told you. You 16 can't testify to what Bob told your father. 17 A Bob told me that he went in our office to 18 get the insurance number on the equipment. And that 19 Michael, our CPA, had willingly filled out the rest of 20 it. That he did not ask for that. And the permit -- 21 Q I'm sorry to stop you right here. 22 Bill, do you see this truck in the video 23 right now? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And does that truck look familiar to you 554 1 for any reason? 2 A Yes, I -- 3 Q. Okay. That truck was at the site that 4 day? 5 A Correct, correct. 6 Q Does that also look like the truck that 7 was used to pull any items that day, if you remember? 8 A I -- that was one of the vehicles or 9 trucks that brought -- that brought in attachments, had a 10 bucket and hammer that it brought in and took out the 11 equipment. And I believe I loaded a car lift onto that 12 truck and trailer. 13 And I -- to the best of my knowledge, I 14 believe, if I remember right, that we loaded the tank 15 onto that truck. 16 Q So to the best of your knowledge? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. 19 A I am not -- not positive whether it was 20 that one or the bigger one. I remember it was one of the 21 Sherrill trucks. 22 Q You are positive it was one of the 23 Sherrill trucks? 24 A Yes. 25 Q You are not positive who actually owned 555 1 the trailer? 2 A Correct. I do not know. 3 Q But it was being pulled by a Sherrill 4 truck? 5 A Yes. 6 Q To this day, you are not positive who 7 drove off in the truck? 8 A Yeah, I did not see who drove off. 9 Q But in the past, you have told us you were 10 positive it was somebody who had been on site the whole 11 day? 12 A I would believe it would have been, yes. 13 I didn't see any strangers at that time. 14 Q So a bunch of guys working together for 15 twelve hours. And one of them is probably, to the best 16 of your knowledge, the one that hauled off the truck? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Hauled off the tank? 19 A Correct. 20 Q Earlier this week, we showed you a couple 21 of photographs, correct? 22 A Correct. 23 Q Of Sherrill trucks, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q And we told you that Mr. Sherrill told us 556 1 it was -- these were the truck and trailer combination; 2 is that correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 5 No. 22. It's a picture of a trailer. 6 Does that look something like the trailer 7 you loaded the tank onto? 8 A Yes. 9 Q But you are not sure that it's actually 10 the trailer, correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Small white -- what kind of trailer is 13 that? I mean, what do you call that type of trailer? 14 Just a flat trailer? 15 A Yeah. 16 Q Okay. And we showed you -- this is Grand 17 Jury Exhibit 33. We showed you that truck, correct? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And you told us that you thought what 20 about that truck? That it was or was not the truck that 21 hauled off the tank? 22 A I -- I thought that it probably was not. 23 Q Okay. You thought it was a smaller truck? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. But the trailer was similar? 557 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. So Womack called you up on the 3 phone. You talked about why your dad might be unhappy 4 with him. 5 Did you talk about what piece of paper he 6 wanted you to sign? 7 A Mmmm... Yes. He had mentioned that he 8 wanted me to sign a piece of paper I believe the Grand 9 Jury would listen to before -- before he was indicted. 10 And but he said, You didn't want to sign it, so never 11 mind. 12 Q Okay. And then you said you also talked 13 about that you were going to tell the truth? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And speak up again. What did you tell 16 Bob? Did you just say, bob, if I am ever testifying, I 17 am going to tell the truth? 18 A Yes, I told him that I wouldn't -- I could 19 not go before a Judge or jury and plead that I do not 20 know what kind of vehicle took the tank. 21 Q Did you tell him, Bob, we both know it was 22 Mark's truck? 23 A No, I did not say that to him. 24 Q When you were up on Ridge Road, did you 25 say, Bob, we both know it was Mark's truck? 558 1 A I didn't say that. But he knows. 2 Q And what did he say when you told him you 3 were going to tell the Grand Jury the truth or a Judge? 4 A Uh, he basically said that, You don't -- 5 you can just say that you can't remember. And, you know, 6 it happened so long ago, you couldn't remember. And do 7 you remember who took the cash register? Which I don't 8 know. I don't remember. And who hauled something else? 9 Trying to make examples how it would be easy to forget. 10 Q So he was kind of like being Perry Mason 11 for you, helping you out? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q Do you feel like he was trying to 14 influence your testimony? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Is that the same way you felt back in May? 17 A Yes. 18 Q So even though you told him you were going 19 to tell the Grand jury or a Judge the truth, he still 20 tried to get you to not tell the truth? 21 A Correct. 22 Q How long did that conversation last? 23 A Not very. 24 Q At the end, did you leave it with, Okay, 25 Bob. I give. Or did you say you were still going to 559 1 tell the truth? 2 A I -- I -- I don't think I really gave him 3 an answer. 4 Q Did he at any time tell you who else had 5 agreed to not tell people the truth? Did he say Mark and 6 I are still sticking with our story? Or did he say 7 anything like that? 8 A No. 9 Q Did he say anything about, If we all stick 10 together, they will never get us? 11 A Just basically mentioned that, you know, 12 that I think the County -- or the County has got a 13 vendetta against him. And the whole thing is 14 ridiculous. You know, nobody was hurt or injured. And 15 he was trying to improve his son's workplace of business. 16 Q Okay. Do you have -- at this point, have 17 you taken 40-hour OSHA training? 18 A No. 19 Q Are you permitted -- is your business 20 permitted to haul hazardous waste? 21 A I don't believe so. 22 Q Have you pulled underground storage tanks 23 in the past? 24 A No. 25 Q After you told Bob on Saturday afternoon, 560 1 as he wanted you to start excavating around the tank, 2 that you thought there were additional permits required, 3 did he say, No, they are not? Or did he say he had all 4 the permits? Or what did he say? 5 A He said that he had told the City that he 6 was going to remove the gas station to build -- I think 7 it was a two-story parking lot and office. And that they 8 knew that he had to remove everything. And he had taken 9 care of the paperwork process. 10 Q Okay. But by Tuesday, he was up there 11 telling you not to tell anybody what happened? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Okay. When you pulled the underground 14 storage tank out of the ground, who was still present at 15 the site? 16 A Bob Womack, Luke Womack, Mark Sherrill and 17 I think Nick, Mark's other driver. And I am not sure if 18 June Womack was in the area. 19 Q Bob Womack came with June in their 20 Navigator that day, correct? 21 A I believe so, yes. 22 Q The other day you watched this video at 23 the D.A.'s office, the full video, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q And at the end, you remembered something 561 1 about how June was taping after the tank started to come 2 out of the ground. Or if you remember? 3 A I -- I don't remember if she was taping 4 afterwards, because it was raining. 5 Q Do you remember if she was taping on 6 Sunday? 7 A That I -- I don't remember. 8 Q Okay. And again, if you remember any of 9 this in the next few weeks or next few months, you should 10 pass it on to Ron Hall. Okay? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Tank comes out of the ground, you load it 13 on a Sherrill trailer. Are you guys done for the day at 14 that point? 15 A Yes. The tank was removed and loaded on 16 the trailer. We were done for the day. 17 Q Okay. So if Mark Sherrill told us in the 18 past he wasn't there when the tank came out of the 19 ground, that would be false? 20 A Correct. 21 Q And if Nick Hernandez told us in the past 22 he wasn't there when the tank came out of the ground, 23 that would be incorrect? 24 A Correct. 25 Q Correct or incorrect? 562 1 I will ask the question again. So if Nick 2 Hernandez told us that he wasn't there when the tank came 3 out of the ground, would that be correct or incorrect? 4 A That would be incorrect. I am sorry. 5 Q Because he was there? 6 A He was. 7 Q And the same question for Mr. Luke 8 Womack? He was there? 9 A Correct. 10 Q They were there all the way until the tank 11 was tied to the trailer? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Okay. And then after that, you were done 14 for the day. Did you know you were going to come back 15 the next day? 16 A Mmmm... Yes. 17 Q What were you going to do the next day? 18 A Excavate the lot down about twelve to six 19 inches for future concrete pad for building parking lot. 20 Q Okay. You don't remember overexcavating 21 the underground storage tank hole? 22 A I don't believe I did. 23 Q Earlier today we had a witness testify 24 that, on Sunday, there wasn't a tank pit, that your 25 actual excavator was parked where the tank pit was. Did 563 1 you fill the hole and then dig it back out? 2 A No. 3 Q But when I asked you that earlier today, I 4 said, Did you fill the hole in? 5 And you said, no, that the piece of 6 equipment straddled the hole or something like that? 7 A Yeah. That night, I parked it straddling 8 the hole, both 49 and Pitt Street. 9 Q Rex? 10 A Rex Street. Just to -- we kind of do that 11 in construction, either put fencing up or either park the 12 equipment in such a way that somebody can't drive into it 13 or, you know, keep them from walking into a hazard. 14 Q So you tried to block off the excavation 15 pit from people driving into or walking into? 16 A Right. 17 Q The pit had water in it? 18 A Right. 19 Q When you were doing the excavation, you 20 were actually taking the waste water and spreading it 21 over the property? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And you will learn how not to do that in 24 your class, correct? 25 A Right. Well, Mr. Womack had told me that 564 1 there was no -- all the hazardous materials had been 2 removed with the first tank that came out. 3 Q He told you that before you started taking 4 the waste water and spreading it all over the property, 5 if you recall? 6 A I don't recall if it was prior. I think 7 so. 8 Q Sometime that weekend? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. So you loaded it on the truck. It 11 drives away. You don't know who the driver was? 12 A Correct. 13 Q You were later told it was Mr. Womack? 14 A Pardon? 15 Q You were later told it was Mr. Womack? 16 A Mmmm... 17 Q By Ron Hall from our office? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And that was based on conversation he had 20 with Mark Sherrill? 21 A Correct. 22 Q That's your understanding? 23 A Yes. 24 Q That didn't help refresh your 25 recollection? 565 1 A No. I did not see. 2 Q It could have been Nick, Bob or Mark, as 3 far as you know? 4 A Right. 5 Q Because it wasn't June or you? 6 A No. 7 Q Okay. And then on Sunday, you worked. 8 And late morning, you were paid? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And the excavator went off down the road? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Earlier today we had a witness testify -- 13 and I am not supposed to tell you what witnesses 14 testified to, so I will ask a question. 15 Where were you loading the trucks on 16 Sunday? Were you loading them from Rex? Or were you 17 loading them from 49? 18 A I believe from 49. 19 Q Did Bob tell you he needed a permit for 20 that? 21 A Mmmm... No. 22 Q Did Bob tell you to take out the retaining 23 wall? Or did you do that on your own? 24 A No. He had asked me to remove it. 25 Q Did you tell him about structural 566 1 integrity at all or not? 2 A Briefly. That it was probably part of the 3 structural integrity. 4 Q So before you took the wall out, you told 5 him it was probably part of the structural integrity? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And he said? 8 A He doubted it, that -- well, he basically 9 told me it needed to be removed. And the upper wall is 10 supported with a -- the way the footing is built, I 11 guess, underneath of the fill. 12 Q It's your understanding that Bob was in 13 the construction business before he came up to Sutter 14 Creek, correct? 15 A I don't know if he was or not, but -- 16 Q You have heard him tell that story? 17 A Maybe. 18 Q If you haven't, you haven't. 19 A No. 20 Q Okay. So you pulled the tank. You told 21 him about permits. You told him about the wall. He told 22 you to lie. You lied. 23 Now you are telling the truth? 24 A Correct. 25 Q It wasn't just one time he told to you 567 1 lie. It was after the September meeting, he said -- 2 again, another time, on a phone conversation, he told 3 you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q The first conversation, he actually 6 mentioned, Sherrill and I have agreed that this is the 7 story, essentially? 8 A Yes. 9 Q But the second time, he didn't remind you 10 that Sherrill and him were going to stick to the story or 11 Mason and him were going to stick to the story? 12 A No. 13 Q Have you talked to Dave Mason about the 14 underground storage tank pull? 15 A No. 16 Q Have you talked to Dave, IV? 17 A No. 18 Q After Womack came to you up on Ridge Road, 19 when you went home, you told your wife that Womack had 20 come up and told you to you lie, though, correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q That was right after? 23 A I believe so. 24 Q Okay. And your wife told the Grand Jury 25 earlier -- I can't ask that. Withdraw the question. 568 1 Other than any small problems or moderate 2 or major problems your wife has with Mr. Robert Womack, 3 have you had any problems with Robert Womack in the past? 4 A No. 5 Q Except he is a slow pay? Or is that not 6 true? 7 A No. He is -- whenever he has paid me, he 8 has paid me right away. 9 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions at 10 this time, Bill Junior, but I knew others might. 11 Q If you know -- this is page 2. I have to 12 ask you this other question first. Is that Luke in the 13 picture? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Did you ask to see the permits? Or did 16 you feel intimidated to ask? 17 A I didn't ask. 18 Q Did you feel intimidated to ask? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Why? 21 A Because I -- Bob has done -- you know, he 22 has done work before, and that I felt confident that he 23 knew what kind of permit process and the paperwork to go 24 through. 25 Q Didn't Wolin and Sons get dinged for Bob 569 1 using their equipment somewhere before? 2 A We got a complaint from the County. 3 Q Because? 4 A Bob using equipment. 5 Q Your equipment? 6 A Yes. 7 Q On his property? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Without permits? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And did you say: Not us. Bob did it. Or 12 how did it go? 13 A I think my dad told them we had just 14 loaned the equipment to Bob and that he did not know what 15 he was doing with it. 16 Q If you can clarify this, that will be 17 helpful. There is going to be a little inconsistent 18 statement here. 19 Do you know if Wolin and Sons was paid for 20 the use of that excavator that weekend, if you know? 21 A Yeah. Just my dad has told me that he 22 hasn't, but I don't know. 23 Q Okay. Do YOU Know if that was a loan or 24 rented? Or you have no idea, the transaction? 25 A I think it was probably a rental. I don't 570 1 even know if him and my dad really talked about it. 2 Q Okay. Who is Luke's mom -- what is Luke's 3 mom's name? 4 A I can't remember. 5 Q Does she still live in town? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q Did you have the permission of your dad to 8 use the equipment or the owner of the equipment? 9 A Did I have permission? 10 Q Sure. 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did you know that this was a dangerous 13 job? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Did you know this because of the gas tank 16 underneath? And did you think about the school being so 17 close to the site? 18 A No. 19 Q Not because of the school? 20 I will ask this in three questions. Did 21 you know this was a dangerous job because of the gas 22 tank? 23 A Well, Bob had -- originally, the talk was 24 to dismantle the building. And that was where I felt 25 that the danger was. And I guess also because of the 571 1 tank. 2 Q But you felt the danger because of the 3 proximity to the highway? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Not for your own safety inside the piece 6 of equipment. Or that, too? 7 A Not so much that as pedestrian safety. 8 Q Debris falls on the road, cars crash, 9 popped tires, that kind of stuff? 10 A Correct. 11 Q When you started the job, did you even 12 think you were going to work on the underground tank? 13 A No. 14 Q So at no time when you were pulling the 15 underground tank did you think about the proximity to the 16 school? 17 A No. 18 Q Did Mr. Womack mention the school to you? 19 A No. 20 Q Did you have Workmen's Comp for this job? 21 A Mmmm... I do not know if Bob did or not. 22 Q You were working for Bob that day? 23 A Correct. 24 Q On Saturday and Sunday? 25 A Correct. 572 1 Q Bob is who paid you? 2 A Correct. 3 Q He paid you with a KRL check? 4 A Correct. 5 Q On the tape, the truck and trailer went 6 south on Highway 49. Which way is that? 7 A Be going -- 8 Q That's a trick question. There was a 9 comma. I didn't see it. 10 On the tape, the truck and trailer went 11 south on Highway 49. Which way did the tank go? North 12 or south when it left? 13 A South into Jackson. That's the direction 14 that the truck was pointed. When it left the job, it was 15 going southbound. 16 Q When it left the job, it was going 17 southbound? 18 A (Witness nods head.) 19 Q Do you know if it turned around and went 20 toward Martell? 21 A No, I don't know. 22 Q Do you know of other instances where Bob 23 Womack has ignored permit requirements? 24 A Yeah. More or less, I have heard that. 25 Q From Bob? 573 1 A Yeah. Him and my father. 2 Q Is Bob one of those guys that brags about, 3 I got away with another one? 4 A More or less. 5 Q Less or more? 6 A Maybe more. 7 Q Tell us a couple stories here. Your day 8 to shine. 9 A Well, I guess he did some work on Roland's 10 office. And I guess the City had came to him and 11 wanted -- told him that they needed a permit. And 12 apparently, he didn't get a permit. And I guess he had 13 talked to Begovich and settled it in that way. 14 Q So did he brag about it, like, I got away 15 with working without permits? Or how does he portray it? 16 A Well, that one there was, I think, 17 basically, how the vendetta issue started, from that 18 point. 19 Q That's Bob's story? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q Okay. Did you talk about other permits he 22 hadn't gotten? 23 A I think another one was where he had our 24 other piece of equipment out on his property. 25 Q What did he say about that? 574 1 A That he was just leveling out a draw, 2 pushing some brush around. 3 Q When your business levels out draws, Wolin 4 and Sons, do you get permits from people? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Fish and Game? 7 A Whatever. 8 Q Forest Service. Several permits, correct? 9 A Whatever. Yeah. Whatever it encompasses. 10 Q Did you tell Bob he needed a permit? 11 A I wasn't -- with that situation? 12 Q Yeah. 13 A I wasn't involved with it. But I believe 14 the County did. 15 Q Was Robert Womack in full control of the 16 job site on Saturday and Sunday? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Was David Mason, III ever on the job site 19 that Saturday or Sunday? 20 A No. 21 Q Maybe David Mason, IV? 22 A I don't think so. 23 Q Did you talk to your father before you 24 removed the tank? 25 A About? 575 1 Q Okay. I will ask a different question. 2 Did you talk to your father before you removed the tank 3 that day regarding requirements? 4 A No. 5 Q Was your father gone when the tank came 6 out of the ground? 7 A Yes. 8 Q He had some kind of engagement? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Dinner with your mom? 11 A My stepmother. 12 Q Stepmom? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So your stepmother is Damian mother? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. So then the next question is, if 17 so, what was his reaction? But you can't answer that 18 because he wasn't there. 19 And if not, why didn't you? 20 A Because I didn't know I was removing the 21 tank. 22 Q When your dad left? 23 A Correct. 24 Q Do you remember who was still present at 25 the site after the tank left the site? 576 1 A I remember Luke. I remember Luke, and 2 that's about... As soon as it was chained up, everybody 3 pretty much took off. 4 Q You remember Luke? 5 A I remember Luke. 6 Q So that limits it to Sherrill, Womack or 7 Nick? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Yes, true? 10 A Yes, true. 11 Q I am not trying to testify for you. 12 Was there ever a problem with the chain or 13 ropes carrying the tank during the handling or loading of 14 it? 15 A I believe -- I can't remember exactly, but 16 I think we did have a problem with the chain. 17 Q That problem being? 18 A I think it broke. 19 Q Did you tell Investigator Hall that the 20 tank was very heavy? 21 A Yes, that it was heavy. 22 Q Do you see the sheen on the water right 23 here? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Who is that in the picture? 577 1 I can go back now. 2 A Luke, Mark and Nick. 3 Q Okay. Was this about the time the tank 4 was about to come out of the ground? 5 A Yes. 6 Q While excavating the tank, did you smell 7 gas? 8 A There was an odor. 9 Q We asked you that earlier this week. And 10 then I had to ask you the second question just like 11 today. 12 What type of odor? 13 A A petroleum product. 14 Q Not the diesel from your equipment? 15 A No. 16 Q A different odor? 17 A I guess it would be a gas smell that has 18 been in the dirt. 19 Q Did you think to stop? 20 A Yes, I had -- I think I had mentioned to 21 Bob about that there was an odor. 22 Q It's kind of important for the Grand 23 Jurors if you could take 20 seconds or 20 minutes or two 24 hours. 25 Do you think you talked to Bob? Or do you 578 1 remember talking to Bob? 2 A I don't remember. 3 Q Okay. You think you talked to Bob about? 4 A That there was -- there was an odor of 5 petroleum or gas in the ground. 6 And he -- I believe -- I don't know if it 7 was that point or earlier, he had told me that Mason had 8 told him, when the first tank was removed, that all the 9 hazardous or contaminated soil was removed. 10 Q So you think that's about the time you had 11 that conversation? 12 A Yeah. Either prior to pulling the tank or 13 during. 14 Q So you may have said, Bob, I smell gas. 15 Instead of Bob saying, "I smell it, too" 16 or "I don't smell it", he gave you a story about what he 17 had been told? 18 A Yes. 19 Q You don't remember him saying, "I don't 20 smell it"? 21 A He didn't seem to smell it. 22 Q Did anybody else at the site smell it? 23 A Mmmm... There wasn't any reaction of it. 24 Q Did you hear anybody else say they smelled 25 it? 579 1 A No. 2 Q Did you later talk to anybody who said 3 they smelled it? 4 A I don't remember. 5 Q Did you think to stop? 6 A No. 7 Q Did Bob Womack tell you not to worry? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Was there ever an actual or implied threat 10 against you by Mr. Womack? 11 A No. 12 Q I am going to ask a different question. 13 Was there ever an actual or implied threat 14 of violence against you by Mr. Womack? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you think he was trying to persuade 17 you from testifying truthfully? 18 A Yes. 19 Q On both occasions? 20 A Mmmm... 21 Q The Ridge Road occasion? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And the phone call? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Did Robert Womack, June Womack or his 580 1 children attempt to bribe you in any way not to tell the 2 truth in regards to the removal of the gas tank, et 3 cetera? 4 A No. 5 Q There is another question here, but I am 6 going to wait a second to ask that. 7 Your wife was telling a story. I can't do 8 that without a question. 9 Did Bob offer to try to find a buyer or 10 try to help you buy a new car? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did he talk to you about that or just your 13 wife? 14 A Both of us. 15 Q So he said -- were you ever worried about 16 buying new cars because you didn't know what would be 17 happening to you in the next few months? 18 A No. 19 Q You weren't? You just weren't ready to go 20 buy a car? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And Bob was going to help you? 23 A He referred me to a salesman. 24 Q And did you buy a car? 25 A Yes. 581 1 Q Did you get a great price on it? 2 A Good price. 3 Q Do you think that had anything to do with 4 receiving a bribe? 5 A No. 6 Q You are sure? Was it too good a price? 7 A No. 8 Q It was fair? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q Okay. Think before you answer this 11 question, please. 12 What took you so long to be honest? 13 A Well, Bob reassured me several times that 14 this would go away and it's not a big deal. And he would 15 take care of it. 16 And once I believe I talked to -- to my 17 dad on the things that Bob had lied about and put the 18 company through, I decided that he was taking advantage 19 of everybody. 20 Q And then you said, Okay. I will just tell 21 Ron Hall and Irey what happened? 22 A Yeah, that -- yes. 23 Q Is that what you are telling the Grand 24 Jury today? 25 A Yes. 582 1 Q So the stuff in the past was false? 2 A Correct. 3 Q The stuff today is true? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you remember if June Womack videotaped 6 anything after where this videotape cuts off? You can 7 stand over here if you want, over there where I always 8 stand, please. 9 A I would believe that probably she had 10 filmed more. 11 Q Do you remember her filming more? 12 A I -- no, I don't remember that. 13 Q But she was videotaping the whole day? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions of 16 Mr. William A Wolin. 17 Q Were you told only to answer yes or no to 18 the questions asked today? 19 A Mmmm... By? 20 Q Anybody. 21 A Mmmm... More -- yeah. 22 Q By whom? 23 A By a friend. 24 Q Giving you legal advice? 25 A Yeah. Trying to. 583 1 Q Basically saying, Don't add stuff to your 2 stories? 3 A Well, not to ramble on and on and on. 4 Q The next question is going to be, Who told 5 you this? If it wasn't your attorney, I am going to have 6 to ask, who told you not to ramble on and on and on? 7 A Mike Sweeney. 8 Q Okay. Who is Mike Sweeney? 9 A Well, he is a friend. 10 Q Okay. When you said yes, you meant yes; 11 and when you said no, you meant no? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And when you did answer in full sentences, 14 those were truthful and accurate? 15 A Correct. 16 Q Do you know where the soil was taken? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know where the tank was taken? 19 A No. 20 GRAND JUROR: I don't know if my question was 21 asked. 22 MR. IREY: You have time. Only Mr. Fourt is 23 going to be happy today. I put it away. I apologize. 24 Q So are you the mole that is talking to 25 the press? 584 1 A No. 2 Q Do you know anything about the tank 3 reward? 4 A Mmmm... Just from yourself. 5 Q And Mr. Hall? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. I have a few more questions to ask 8 you. 9 On September 2nd, we met in a group, 10 correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And I went through this whole explanation 13 about what I thought the violations of the law were, 14 correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And I told you that you were free to leave 17 any time you wanted to, correct? I remember you got 18 there late, huh? 19 A Correct. 20 Q Very late. Hour after it started? 21 A Yes. 22 Q You were working, I hope? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And we sat around a big table and got some 25 things aired out, correct? 585 1 A Yes. 2 Q And then I told you what the deal was, 3 correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And then I left the room? 6 A Correct. 7 Q Were you there when Bob said, My attorney 8 said, if it's anything more than $500, tell them to 9 F-off? 10 A No. 11 Q You weren't there for that. 12 Were you there when Bob told anybody not 13 to tell the District Attorney's Office the truth? 14 A He didn't say that. 15 Q What were you guys talking about when 16 George Ryan left the meeting? 17 A About the charges. And Bob was mentioning 18 how he was going to try to find the tank. 19 Q And how was he going try to find the tank? 20 A Putting ads in the paper. 21 Q Did you ever see the ad in the paper? 22 A Yes. 23 Q After the tank came back? 24 A No. I think it was before. 25 Q Are you sure? 586 1 A Well, date-wise, I don't know. But when I 2 heard about the tank showing up. 3 Q You looked in the paper and there was an 4 ad? 5 A Yes. 6 Q In the Amador Ledger Dispatch? 7 A Yeah. It was a write-up. 8 Q That's where you saw the reward? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. What else was talked about at that 11 meeting by the big group? 12 A About the -- if the tank was to be found, 13 that it had to be called in; not moved. 14 Q Who said that? 15 A You. 16 Q I told them not to move the tank? 17 A Correct. 18 Q Told them it was another violation of the 19 law? 20 A Correct. 21 Q More than once, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. And so you guys chatted about, if 24 we find the tank, then what happens? Is that essentially 25 it? 587 1 A Bob really didn't say what -- he just said 2 that he was going to find it. 3 Q He was going to find it? 4 A He was going to find it. And to probably 5 pursue going to Grand Jury. 6 Q Okay. So at that point, he said, I am 7 going to find the tank. And I am going to go to the 8 Grand Jury and fight? 9 A Yes. 10 Q That was September 2nd? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. So that night, he knew he was going 13 to find the tank. Is that the way you took it? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Why did he have to put an ad in the paper? 16 A I -- 17 Q All show? 18 A Probably. 19 Q Is that the way you took it? 20 A Yes. 21 Q So did he say it that night, I have to put 22 an ad in the paper so everybody thinks that that's the 23 way I found it? 24 A No, he didn't. 25 Q You've got to answer this honestly. 588 1 A No. I didn't talk to him myself. But 2 that's kind of more or less what he was mentioning. 3 Q That night? 4 A Yes. 5 Q That's the way you took it? 6 A Yes. 7 Q So you guys all got in a huddle, and I am 8 outside in the cold. And you guys put the ad in the 9 paper just to throw us off the trail or something? 10 A That's what Bob was saying he was going to 11 do. 12 Q Anything else interesting that I haven't 13 asked that you seem to have answers for? This is yes no 14 Mike Sweeney issue to some Members of the Grand Jury. 15 Do you understand, they think you are 16 knowing more than you are telling us right now. They are 17 probably going to ask you to come back. They think it's 18 like pulling teeth. They would rather you tell us what 19 happened. 20 A Well, he just more or less talked about 21 how the whole thing seems to be ridiculous. He didn't -- 22 he didn't mention on what happened, but how he was being 23 framed by the -- by the County. And the whole thing was 24 ridiculous. And he felt it was, you know, minor, more or 25 less ridiculous thing. 589 1 Q Did he give specific reasons how he was 2 being framed? 3 A Well, he told my dad that he did not put 4 company name on the permit, that somebody probably forged 5 that. 6 Q That night? 7 A Yes. 8 Q In front of you? 9 A Yes. 10 Q He told your dad that he didn't put the 11 company name on the permit, that somebody probably forged 12 it? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And then he showed -- 15 A Yes. And then he showed us another 16 document that had Roland's name on it. 17 Q And no Wolin and Sons stuff, right? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And later you learned that Michael had 20 filled out a document with Wolin and Sons' name on it, 21 correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q But that night, he is saying, I didn't put 24 your name on any document. Here. Look at this. 25 A Yes. And he showed us a photocopy of -- I 590 1 think it was a demolition permit. 2 Q Okay. 3 A And he said that they wouldn't give me the 4 original. This is the photocopy. 5 Q Meaning the Government wouldn't give him 6 the original? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. So the first time two minutes ago 9 that you told me that you thought that that night that 10 Bob Womack was just putting the ad in the paper for show, 11 do you have any more specifics on that? Or am I putting 12 words in your mouth? 13 A No, he did not, I mean, say that he was 14 putting it on for show. But he said that's what he was 15 going to do, like he had told you. 16 Q But he said, I am going to get the tank? 17 A Yeah, he would try to find the tank. 18 Q I will put the ad in the paper and I am 19 sure I will get it? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q You didn't have the tank, did you? 22 A No. 23 Q Does Womack have any -- I can't even ask 24 this and tell you not to answer it. I can ask: Does 25 Womack have a lot of influence -- I can ask both of 591 1 these. I apologize. I misread it. It's a great 2 question. 3 Does Womack have any other criminal 4 activity on you? 5 A No. 6 Q Do you sell drugs and Womack knows, that 7 kind of stuff? 8 A No. 9 Q So that's not why he has a lot of 10 influence over you? 11 A Mmmm... No. We have known each other for 12 twelve, fifteen years, and more or less been kind of 13 friends, family. 14 Q Vacation together? 15 A Yeah, friends of the family. And he has 16 always been a nice guy. 17 Q Do you feel that answering yes or no to 18 the Grand Jury is within your agreement with the District 19 Attorney's Office? 20 A No. 21 Q Listen to the question. 22 A I mean, well -- 23 Q Do you feel that answering yes or no to 24 the Grand Jury is within your agreement with the District 25 Attorney's Office? Do you think you are complying with 592 1 your agreement with the District Attorney's Office? 2 A I am not sure if I understand the 3 question. 4 Q Are you answering the questions given to 5 you truthfully and fully? 6 A Yes. 7 Q So if you -- if I asked you a question 8 that had more information in it than a yes or no, you 9 would say yes, for instance? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And so if I asked you this series of 12 questions again, you might have longer answers? 13 A Yes. 14 Q But this is your first time testifying? 15 A Yes. 16 Q So if there are specific questions the 17 Grand Jurors wanted answered down the road, you would be 18 happy to give longer answers, if necessary? 19 A Yes. 20 MR. IREY: Any other Grand Jurors have any 21 questions today? 22 Again, Mr. Wolin, what will happen with 23 all of these witnesses, is many people will tell 24 inconsistent stories, and we may -- either our office or 25 the Grand Jury may want to bring you back and ask you 593 1 two, three or four questions. 2 For instance, hypothetically, Mr. Luke 3 Womack might come in and say, I left before the tank came 4 out of the ground. The Grand Jury might want to balance 5 what Mr. Luke Womack says against what you said. And 6 they may want to hear how you remember him being there 7 and how you remember him being there after the truck 8 left. 9 You may be brought back for some of those 10 questions sometime next week. We will try to give you as 11 much notice as possible. 12 When the Grand Jury Foreman releases you 13 today, he is releasing you from this initial day of 14 testifying. He is not releasing you from all of your 15 obligations to the Grand Jury. 16 You understand that? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 MR. IREY: Any questions? 19 Okay. Mr. Foreman. 20 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. You are admonished not to 21 reveal to any person except as directed by the Court what 22 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 23 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 24 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 25 appearance before the Grand Jury. 594 1 This admonition continues unless and until 2 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 3 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 4 punishable as contempt of court. 5 This does not prevent you from discussing 6 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 7 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 8 Grand Jury. 9 Now I have 1650. And this one right now. 10 Write the date, and then... 11 MR. IREY: The Grand Jury Foreman will need to 12 give you your admonishment before we are done. 13 There is one more if you guys want to 14 wait. Probably take about four hours. We could go for 15 ten minutes, and only have three hours and -- 16 GRAND JUROR: I want to watch a football game. 17 MR. IREY: Just trying to help. 18 You are free to go. We haven't figured 19 this out yet. 20 THE FOREPERSON: Maybe I should be telling them 21 that then. 22 MR. IREY: We will flip a coin next week. 23 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. The Grand Jurors are 24 admonished that they are not to form or express any 25 opinions about this case or discuss it amongst themselves 595 1 until the Grand Jury receives the case for deliberation. 2 In addition, no inspection of evidence 3 should be conducted without the permission of the 4 Foreperson and on the advice of the prosecuting 5 attorney. 6 A violation of this rule could result in a 7 charge of contempt against the Grand Juror who would 8 investigate or view any matters with regard to this case 9 without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 10 Thank you. We stand adjourned until 11 Monday morning at 9:30. Thank you. 12 (Whereupon, the proceedings recessed for the day at 4:52 p.m.) 13 14 ---oOo--- 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 596 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ) ss. 4 COUNTY OF TUOLUMNE ) 5 6 I, JAN L. BENEDETTI, CSR, hereby certify that I 7 was duly appointed and qualified to take the foregoing 8 matter; 9 That acting as such reporter, I took down in 10 stenotype notes the testimony given and proceedings 11 had; 12 That I thereafter transcribed said shorthand 13 notes into typewritten longhand, the above and 14 foregoing pages being a full, true and correct 15 transcription of the testimony given and proceedings 16 had. 17 18 19 20 21 22 _____________________________ 23 JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG 24 25