IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF AMADOR ---oOo--- The People of the State of California) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) No. 98-0767 ) ROBERT ROLAND WOMACK, DAVID STERLING ) MASON III and MARK SHERRILL, ) Defendants. ) _____________________________________) PROCEEDINGS HELD BEFORE THE GRAND JURY NOVEMBER 12, 1998 VOLUME I APPEARANCES: For the People: DAVID J. IREY Deputy District Attorney Reported by: JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG, CSR No. 4643 2 1 ---oOo--- 2 WITNESS INDEX Page 3 RON HALL Examination by Mr. Irey 30 4 ELAINE WILLIAMS 5 Examination by Mr. Irey 112 6 RICHARD ESCAMILLA Examination by Mr. Irey 124 7 RICK HILDERMAN 8 Examination by Mr. Irey 148 9 MICHAEL ISRAEL Examination by Mr. Irey 154 10 RICHARD VINSON 11 Examination by Mr. Irey 175 12 TOM BAMERT Examination by Mr. Irey 185 13 EMMETT RETTAGLIATA 14 Examination by Mr. Irey 206 15 RICHARD THORPE Examination by Mr. Irey 219 16 LINDA VAN VLECK 17 Examination by Mr. Irey 273 18 ---oOo--- 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 E X H I B I T S 2 Exhibit No. Description Ref. 3 1 Videotape 34 4 2 Videotape 70 5 3 Videotape, 8 millimeter 35 6 4 Cassette Tape 79 7 5 Blow-up of check 60 8 6 Reward Tag 258 9 7 Photograph 105 10 8 Photograph 106 11 10 Land Use Committee Minutes 114 12 12 Weight Tag Copies 208 13 14 Certificate of Tank Destruction 234 14 15 Tank Numbers 221 15 16 Tank Hauling Manifest 244 16 17 Copy of check 257 17 ---oOo--- 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 JACKSON, CALIF., THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 1998, 9:38 A.M. 2 BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF AMADOR COUNTY 3 ---oOo--- 4 THE FOREPERSON: Good morning, everybody. What 5 we are going to do is, Janine is going to take role. I 6 guess, verbally. You give role verbally. Then when 7 that's done, then I will swear in our court reporter. 8 And then the Deputy District Attorney is going to have a 9 few comments to clear up any -- any confusion as exactly 10 what we are going to do here as a Grand Jury. 11 So Janine, if you want to go ahead and 12 start. 13 THE SECRETARY: Okay. Get my papers in order 14 here. 15 Signify by saying present. 16 (Redacted.) 17 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 18 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted), present. 19 (Redacted.) 20 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Yes. 21 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 22 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 23 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 24 (Redacted.) 25 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Oh. 5 1 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 2 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 3 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 4 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXXXX: Present. 5 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 6 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 7 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 8 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Present. 9 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 10 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 11 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 12 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Present. 13 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 14 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 15 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 16 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 17 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 18 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 19 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 20 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 21 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 22 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Present. 23 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 24 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 25 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 6 1 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 2 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 3 THE FOREPERSON: Present. 4 THE SECRETARY: Thank you. 5 (Whereupon, the reporter was sworn in by the Foreperson. ) 6 THE FOREPERSON: David. 7 MR. IREY: Okay. Hello, Members of the Grand 8 Jury. My name is David Irey. I am a Deputy District 9 Attorney in this case. After I give a couple of 10 introductory comments, then the Grand Jury foreman 11 will -- our first break. 12 (Interruption in proceedings.) 13 GRAND JUROR: Could you spell your last 14 name, please. 15 16 MR. IREY: I-R-E-Y. 17 As I was saying, after I give these brief 18 introductory comments, then it's pretty much in your 19 control. The Grand Jury Foreman and the Grand Jury 20 Secretary kind of control the breaks, the timing of 21 witnesses. I have a strong tentative schedule for the 22 witnesses. I try to follow that. 23 The Presiding Judge wanted me to at this 24 time remind all of you, you are not making a 25 determination of guilt of any individual, whether they 7 1 are currently named on the face of the proposed 2 indictment or whether you determine to add some people to 3 this list. You are just making a determination -- and I 4 will give you that jury instruction; it's part of your 5 long packet, about what you are making a determination on 6 after the proposed indictment is read. 7 There will be somewhere between 50 and 70 8 witnesses, but it will go very, very fast. As the Judge 9 explained to you, at this point, there is no 10 cross-examination of witnesses. I put on the evidence 11 and that's all I put on. In a normal jury proceeding, 12 the District Attorney has an argument at the beginning: 13 They did it; and at the end: They did it. In a Grand 14 Jury proceeding, you don't. 15 I might use witnesses to kind of bracket 16 what we will be presenting, but I won't tell you what the 17 facts will show; and at the end, I won't tell you what 18 the facts have shown. It's completely your determination 19 to make. That's the plus. 20 The other thing is that you do control 21 it. One thing that you are going to talk about on your 22 first break is the timing of how early we are going to 23 start, how late we are going to go. All of those things 24 you can determine. If you want to go six hours a day or 25 nine hours a day or ten hours a day, I will do whatever 8 1 you request and you require. 2 If it's hot in here, I will try to find 3 someone to cool it down. I think there probably should 4 be a way in the winter. It looks like those windows 5 open. 6 With that said, if -- as the Judge 7 explained to you, you can ask questions of any witness in 8 the case. I think at this point, I want to make sure 9 after the jury instruction is read that you understand 10 what level of proof you are making a determination on. 11 I have been told that numerous people have 12 come up to various people in the courthouse already and 13 discussed that they know some of the names, both 14 witnesses and/or maybe the named defendants. I think 15 that that's part and parcel a county of this size, a 16 population. My background is San Joaquin County and I 17 haven't had these types of issues before. 18 However, the Judge also said that she 19 picked a fine Grand Jury and she is very comfortable with 20 your ability to make decisions on these matters. 21 So with that said, I have to mention 22 this. Apparently, another newspaper article came out. 23 The Judge asks you guys all about that in her voir dire. 24 There was a letter to the editor that came out. If that 25 has influenced or anybody strongly believes it has 9 1 influenced them or they have read it, you need to let me 2 know and we need to talk to the Presiding Judge right 3 away about that. 4 Maybe I will leave the room and you can 5 poll the grand jurors to see if those particular 6 newspaper articles may have influenced anybody at this 7 time. 8 Additionally, I heard that there were 9 radio comments on this case today. I didn't hear them, 10 but I heard that it played several times this morning. 11 So with that said, if the radio affected 12 your ability to be a fair trier of fact, the Grand Jury 13 Foreman needs to know, and then I need to know. And I 14 will get the Presiding Judge and we might not start quite 15 as quickly. 16 The packets I gave you are long. The case 17 has some complexity. The way we are going to try to 18 present it is short -- short witnesses, a lot of them. 19 And hopefully, it will go quite well. I told the Grand 20 Jury Foreman I didn't want to tell you guys this, but I 21 think we will be done next Thursday, instead of 22 Thanksgiving holiday week. At this time, my last witness 23 is scheduled for Thursday morning. 24 However, again, I also told the Grand Jury 25 Foreman that this case has the possibilities of having 10 1 the Grand Jury, themselves, as you have every right in 2 the world, to request additional information, whether you 3 want business records and have our office go get them or 4 whether you want additional witnesses called. You pass 5 that information along to the Grand Jury foreman. You 6 have every right to request it. I can go and try to 7 obtain that information. 8 There are certain privileges, of course, 9 attorney client privileges and spousal privileges and all 10 of those things. You can't say, Why didn't X's wife 11 testify? But we can work around that as long as it 12 complies with the law. 13 Again, this is your show. If I am sitting 14 in the wrong spot, if I am speaking too quickly, let me 15 know. Usually, when we do these, we have a U-shaped 16 table so everybody is just as close to the witness as the 17 next person. It looks like the jury box is kind of 18 small. You might not want to sit there two or three 19 hours at a time. You might want breaks every hour and a 20 half. It's your call. 21 Again, I told the Grand Jury Foreman, 22 12:30 is a nice time to break because that's after a 23 lunch rush. I don't know if there is a lunch rush in 24 Jackson. But that puts us about three hours into it. If 25 we push it up and start at 8:30, maybe 11:30 is a good 11 1 time for lunch. 2 At this time, Mr. Foreman, the proposed 3 indictment probably needs to be read into the record by 4 you. 5 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 6 MR. IREY: At the end of the first package are 7 two -- the last two pages are duties of the Grand Jury 8 and evidence warranting an indictment. That's the 9 standard. And I think that that probably needs to be 10 read into the record. 11 At that point, if anybody has any 12 questions about what the Grand Jurors are deciding here. 13 And then we will be ready to call the first witness. 14 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. So now you mentioned 15 about the newspaper articles and the radio articles. Is 16 that something that we -- I should poll now? 17 MR. IREY: I probably should walk out. I don't 18 know what questions the Judge asked you. You might want 19 to ask parallel questions. Did any of you hear them? 20 Did you read them? Was anybody influenced by them? 21 One thing that I think the Judge probably 22 made perfectly clear, these are secret proceedings. And 23 so to talk about what happens in court today, what 24 evidence you see today, the Judge has given you the 25 appropriate admonition on that. I think it's really 12 1 important in this case. Because things are showing up 2 out in the newspapers and radio that just don't make 3 sense, as far as, where did that information come from? 4 So hopefully, you will be able to keep 5 this tight. We will try to do it in six days. And after 6 that, ten days after the arraignment, if you decide to 7 indict, everything becomes public record. Then you guys 8 can chat about Paragraph 7 or the 17th witness or 9 whatever you want. If you even care. 10 So with that said, I will step out and you 11 make the determination. 12 THE FOREPERSON: You can stay -- 13 MR. IREY: I don't want to. Radio today, 14 newspaper yesterday. 15 (Whereupon, pages 13 - 14 were reported and transcribed, but are under separate 16 confidential cover.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 1 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were held in the presence of the Deputy 2 District Attorney:) 3 THE FOREPERSON: As I read this, these charges 4 here -- is that what we call them? They are charges? 5 Is that the correct term? 6 MR. IREY: Proposed charges. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. And a juror wants to know 8 where a specific location is that's listed on here. 9 What's the proper procedure then for answering their 10 question? Do they write that down or do they -- 11 MR. IREY: Where an actual physical location is? 12 THE FOREPERSON: Let's say we have an address I 13 am going read in a few seconds. 14 MR. IREY: This is the answer to the question. 15 The Judge probably admonished you -- 16 Presiding Judge, Judge Harlan, probably admonished you 17 not to go out and do independent investigation. So if 18 the Grand Juror Member wanted to write it on a piece of 19 paper, then probably every single witness in this case 20 would be able to answer that question and I would be 21 happy to ask it. 22 I cannot testify, so I can't answer that 23 question. But the investigator -- that could be you have 24 your first question to the witnesses. The investigator 25 would be happy to answer that question, where the 16 1 location of the address is. 2 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Then would you like me to 3 read -- it looks like four and somewhat of five pages 4 here then, correct? 5 MR. IREY: I think what you do is, you read page 6 9 and page 10. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 8 MR. IREY: What's called page -- okay. Then 9 there is -- how to put this? The computer automatically 10 numbered these pages. Pages 11 and 12 are missing from 11 your copies, for legitimate reasons. That's probably the 12 safest. 13 So 9 and 10, and then the last two pages, 14 duties of the Grand Jury and evidence warranting an 15 indictment. 16 THE FOREPERSON: So I don't read these? 17 MR. IREY: No need to read the first pages, but 18 the Grand Jury Members are free to read those. 19 THE FOREPERSON: Nine and 10 and the last two, 20 which are numbered, it looks like -- well, they are not 21 numbered, but we could call them 15 and 16. Okay. 22 So let's show, at 9:57, that I am going to 23 read the statement of charge and admonition. 24 Okay. Foreman's Statement of Charge and 25 Admonition on Prejudice. To be read to the Grand Jury 17 1 after the -- she has been sworn. Okay. 2 The matter to be presented today involves 3 as possible defendants Robert Womack and David Mason, 4 III, and the possible charges. 5 Can everybody hear me fine? 6 THE GRAND JURY: Yes. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Count I, a violation of Section 8 182(a)(1) of the Penal Code, conspiracy to commit a 9 crime, a felony. 10 Count II: A violation of Section 11 25189.5(b) of the Health and Safety Code, disposal of 12 hazardous waste, a felony. 13 Counts III, IV and V, each a violation of 14 Section 25189.5(c) of the Health and Safety Code, 15 transportation of hazardous waste, a felony. 16 Jan, am I going too fast? 17 THE REPORTER: No. 18 THE FOREPERSON: Counts VI and VII, each a 19 violation of Section 25189.5(d), as in David, of the 20 Health and Safety Code, treatment or storage of hazardous 21 waste, a felony. 22 Counts VIII and IX, each a violation of 23 Section 136.1(c)(2) -- that's the number 2 -- of the 24 Penal Code, dissuading a witness, a felony. 25 Count X, a violation of Section 632(a) of 18 1 the Penal Code, eavesdropping, a felony. 2 Count XI, a violation of Section 3 5650(a)(1) of the Fish and Game Code, water pollution, a 4 misdemeanor. 5 The witnesses will most likely be: Bill 6 Admire, Tom Bamert, Lou Broline, Stephen Buckley, Curt 7 Campbell, John Carstensen, Thorton Consolo, Randy Cunha, 8 Richard -- excuse me. Richard Escamilla, Brian Drake, 9 Robert Fourt, Bart Gillman, Fred Graves, Tim Hall, Ron 10 Hall, Nick Hernandez, Tony Hernandez, Rick Hilderman, 11 Michael Israel, Phil Joses, Miriam Mason, David Mason, 12 III, David Mason, Doug Mondani, Louie Podesta, Gary 13 Poggio, E. Michael Quinn, Emmett Rettagliata, Gary Rouse, 14 George Ryan, Jenise Schwartz, Connie Sherrill, Keith 15 Tallia, Richard Thorpe, Roy Toms, Nick Toms, Linda Van 16 Vleck, Richard Vinson, Jim Walshaw, Larry White, Elaine 17 Williams, Bill Wolin, William A. Wolin, Damian Wolin, 18 Robert Womack, Roland Womack, Mrs. Robert Womack, Nadine 19 Womack, Luke Womack, Larry Womack, Kimberly Moore, Jeff 20 Taylor, Gary Clark, John Henney, Russell Moore, Gary 21 Urzik, Jake Strom, Gary Sherrill, Sherry Martin, Tina 22 Wolin, Mark Sherrill, Mike Womack, Lance Hayden, Gary 23 Clark, Robert Van De Pole, Mary Nell Bryant. 24 Any member of the Grand Jury who has a 25 state of mind in reference to this matter or any of the 19 1 parties involved which will prevent him from acting 2 impartially and without prejudice to the substantial 3 right of the parties will now retire. 4 Okay. Let the record show that nobody 5 left the room. Okay. Yeah. Let the record indicate 6 that none of the jurors have withdrawn. 7 Okay. Now you may proceed, the D.A. 8 MR. IREY: That's the Deputy D.A. That would be 9 me. 10 If the Foreman could read the last few 11 pages? 12 One thing, before the Foreman begins on 13 that, two of the witnesses listed, David Mason, III and 14 Robert Womack, more likely than not at this point will 15 not testify. 16 You will be given a jury instruction about 17 right against self-incrimination and no need to infer 18 that that means anything whatsoever. When this was 19 getting drafted, it was just everybody that might testify 20 or possibly defendants so the Presiding Judge could let 21 you know the names. 22 Additionally, I think after the Presiding 23 Judge picked the jury, we may have added Robert Van De 24 Pole and Mary Nell Bryant. I think, rather than having 25 me walk out the door, if that has any large importance to 20 1 any of the individuals here, please let me know, and then 2 we will talk to the Presiding Judge. 3 For instance, if it's a sister or 4 whatever, the exact same questions the Presiding Judge 5 went through with you, we can do that. Those two names I 6 think are probably new since Monday. Okay. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Now, you are right. Some 8 of these names were not on that original list. I 9 personally recognize the last name Van De Pole, but not 10 the first name. 11 MR. IREY: Think about the series of questions 12 you were asked on Monday. Think about your answers to 13 them and whether or not the Court may have asked you 14 additional questions about your relationship. If that is 15 the case, then maybe we need to talk to the Presiding 16 Judge. 17 Again, as I informed the foreman right 18 before we started, you may decide to add some witnesses. 19 People may mention names I have never heard or my 20 investigators have never heard and you might think to 21 yourselves, That person would have been an eye witness to 22 whatever these allegations are. We really want to hear 23 from them. And so that -- at some point, the Grand 24 Jurors may add additional names to this. And that's 25 going to be throughout the next week and a half. 21 1 So with that said, does that help answer 2 your question? 3 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Can I think about it for 4 a second? I am... 5 MR. IREY: It's your shot. You can think about 6 it for days if you need to. 7 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: No. 8 MR. IREY: I didn't say you if you want to. I 9 said if you need to. 10 THE FOREPERSON: May I at this time call a 11 meeting with the Presiding Judge and yourself and 12 myself? Can I do -- 13 MR. IREY: The answer is, yes. But let's go 14 ahead and check if any other members of the Grand Jury 15 have additional thoughts or concerns along those lines. 16 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. With that said, anybody? 17 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: (Redacted.) I have a 18 question. These people on the witness list. These are 19 people that are going to testify on what they have seen 20 in the matter of the case pending? 21 MR. IREY: I cannot answer that. 22 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Okay. 23 MR. IREY: They more likely than not have some 24 level of information regarding the case in front of you. 25 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: All right. 22 1 MR. IREY: But I can't say one witness has a lot 2 of information; the other has no information. 3 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: That's not really what I am 4 asking. 5 MR. IREY: Did that answer your question? 6 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Yes, it did answer my 7 question. 8 MR. IREY: Regarding just the two new witnesses, 9 any issues? Okay. Well, I think before we take that 10 break, if you could read the last two pages at this 11 time. 12 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen of 13 the Grand Jury, you have heard all the evidence and now 14 it is my duty to instruct you on the law that applies to 15 this case. I will read the instructions to you. You 16 will have the instructions in written form to refer to 17 during your deliberations. 18 You must base your decision on the facts 19 and the law. You have two duties to perform. First, you 20 must determine the facts from the evidence received in 21 the Grand Jury presentation and not from any other 22 source. A fact is something proved directly or 23 circumstantially by the evidence. 24 Second, you must apply the law that I 25 state to you to the facts as you determine them and, in 23 1 this way, arrive at your decision. 2 You must not be influenced by pity for an 3 accused or by prejudice against him or her. You must not 4 be influenced by mere sentiment, conjecture, sympathy, 5 passion, prejudice, public opinion or public feeling. 6 Both the People and the accused have a 7 right to expect that you will conscientiously consider 8 and weigh the evidence, apply the law and reach a just 9 decision regardless of the consequences. 10 Okay. This is the evidence warranting 11 indictment. 12 Penal Code Section 939.8 states, The -- 13 quote. "The Grand Jury shall find an indictment when all 14 the evidence before it, taken together, if unexplained or 15 uncontradicted, would in its judgment, warrant a 16 conviction by a trial jury. 17 "The California Supreme Court has 18 interpreted the above to mean: There must be enough 19 evidence to support a strong suspicion or probability of 20 the commission of the crimes and the accused's guilt 21 thereof, for probable cause to indict. Probable cause 22 means such a state of facts as would lead a person of 23 ordinary caution or proof to believe, and conscientiously 24 entertain a strong suspicion of the guilt of the accused. 25 Reasonable and probable cause may exist, although there 24 1 may be some room for doubt." 2 MR. IREY: And again, before we take the 3 next break, that is something that the Presiding Judge 4 wanted to make sure you. Understood, it's a lower 5 standard than beyond a reasonable doubt. You are not 6 going to be convicting anyone of a crime. You are just 7 making a determination pursuant to this specific 8 instruction one way or the other. 9 You may decide some of the counts warrant 10 this; some of them don't. You may decide to add counts. 11 You may decide to add defendants. You may decide to drop 12 defendants. That's what the Grand Jury is required to do 13 and this is one of the instructions that will help you do 14 that. 15 With that said, I do need to contact the 16 Presiding Judge for the Foreman. We will try to make it 17 as quick as possible. These types of hitches in the 18 system occur. And then we will start with our 19 testimony. Okay. Thank you. 20 (Recess taken from 10:12 to 10:15 a.m.) 21 MR. IREY: I think we should decide schedules and 22 timing. You guys can talk among yourselves. 9:30 every 23 day? 24 THE FOREPERSON: 9:30. We have a lot of people 25 that come from up country. 9:30. We will break for 25 1 lunch at 12:30. We will try to dismiss probably about 2 5:00. 3 MR. IREY: That didn't take long. 4 GRAND JUROR: We have one-hour lunch or half-hour 5 lunch? 6 MR. IREY: However long you want to. 7 GRAND JUROR: He mentioned 12:30 to 1:00. 8 MR. IREY: I think it should be 12:30 to 1:30. 9 What else could we do? Basically, play 10 cards. Is that legal? They will be using you as the 11 court reporter. I don't know whether it's going to be 12 easier to you to move. The Judge is making those 13 decisions. 14 THE FOREPERSON: When a witness is done, do you 15 then ask for written questions? Is that what you do? Or 16 do I direct those to you? 17 MR. IREY: I will ask at the end of each witness. 18 If I forget, I have no problem. Chime in. Say, I have a 19 question. 20 Does any member of the Grand Jury have a 21 question? The packets of information I passed out, you 22 are free to read. However, you need to know that, at the 23 end, I am going to read it all. That's probably the most 24 boring part of the case, but the most important part. I 25 will have to read the proposed indictment and every 26 1 single jury instruction in. So it's not as good as 2 playing cards, but maybe... 3 GRAND JUROR: These are turned in at the end of 4 each day? 5 MR. IREY: Correct. Nothing will leave the Grand 6 Jury room admitted into evidence or notebook you have 7 written on or proposed indictments. This stuff is all 8 secret. 9 We have just learned -- and I am going to 10 chat with the Presiding Judge about it. Apparently, a 11 photographer is out there taking pictures of you 12 wonderful folks. I will -- I wanted to let you know. 13 GRAND JUROR: Is that allowed? 14 MR. IREY: The Court Reporter can only write down 15 one person at one time. So everybody is free to chat at 16 this part, because we are just chatting about 17 formalities. But once the evidence begins, sometimes I 18 accidentally speak over the witness. And the same thing 19 with conversations back here. 20 At this point, we are still on the 21 record. We can go off the record if you want and do the 22 informal stuff. I have no problem with that. Maybe 23 that's best. 24 THE FOREPERSON: Yeah. If we are just chatting 25 amongst ourselves, why don't we do that until we come 27 1 back from the Judge. 2 MR. IREY: Once we go off the record, I won't be 3 able to chat about this reporter issue. So I wanted to 4 let you know -- that's why I stayed on the record. Let 5 you know I will talk to the presiding Judge. She may 6 come in and pass on information. I have not had to deal 7 with that issue because it's usually a secret room type 8 of thing. There are a lot of people in the courthouse. 9 Apparently, there are fewer people in the 10 courthouse and more flash bulbs than we might wish. So 11 once the foreman and I go to chat with the Presiding 12 Judge and the court reporter, I will also bring up that 13 issue. And I will either have her brief you on her 14 determination or -- First Amendment is important, but I 15 don't know if they need to be taking pictures of Grand 16 Jurors. Okay. 17 We are off the record now? 18 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 19 (Off-record discussion.) 20 MR. IREY: Back on the record for a moment. 21 False alarm. A photographer was loading camera and was 22 told not to take pictures. And the bailiff is going to 23 pay close attention to that. So you should not have to 24 have your pictures taken. 25 And the Judge is going to, at her first 28 1 break between cases, see you and you. You, the Foreman, 2 and the Court Reporter, for the record. 3 Off the record. 4 (Discussion held off the record.) 5 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were held at 10:42 a.m:) 6 MR. IREY: Ron Hall is our first witness. He is 7 going to come in. He is about to testify. Most of what 8 he is going to show -- most of what he is going to do is 9 show videotapes this morning. So I am going to go ahead 10 and have him come in. 11 THE FOREPERSON: That's fine. 12 MR. IREY: For instance, if the Foreman, for some 13 reason, needs to be off of the jury, then you might have 14 to watch the videos twice. At least we will get 15 started. 16 So we can have our chairs. I will go 17 ahead and call Ron in. My guess is, Murphys law, the 18 presiding Judge will stop us in about five seconds. 19 THE SECRETARY: So we have 19. 20 MR. IREY: Our first witness is District 21 Attorney Investigator Ron Hall. 22 Again, we are starting this a little 23 awkwardly, but I am sure we will pick up the pace soon. 24 I am going to ask Mr. Hall a few questions, then we are 25 going to do the videotape part. And then later today or 29 1 tomorrow, Mr. Hall will come back and testify about -- he 2 will tell you what he will testify to. That's fine. 3 Anyway, Mr. Hall, could you spell your 4 last name for the record, please. 5 THE WITNESS: H-A-L-L. 6 THE FOREPERSON: Do I swear him? 7 MR. IREY: Yes. Thank you. 8 THE FOREPERSON: Do I raise my hand, too? 9 You do you solemnly swear that the 10 testimony, evidence you shall give in this investigation 11 now pending before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, 12 the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 13 God. 14 THE WITNESS: I do. 15 (TIME: 10:44 A.M.) 16 ---oOo--- 17 RON HALL. 18 Called as a witness herein by the People, 19 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 20 and testified as follows: 21 MR. IREY: Again, Mr. Hall, for the record, your 22 last name. 23 THE WITNESS: Hall, H-A-L-L. 24 //// 25 // 30 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. IREY: 3 Q Mr. Hall, who is your current employer? 4 A Amador County District Attorney's Office. 5 Q And for how long have you been employed 6 there? 7 A One month short of three years. 8 Q Prior to that, were you in law 9 enforcement? 10 A Yes. 11 Q In what capacity? 12 A Deputy Sheriff with Amador County since 13 1984. 14 Q Do you have any specialized training in 15 order to be a peace officer? 16 A I have several trainings over the years I 17 have been a law enforcement officer, which include the 18 POST basic academy. I possess all three certificates by 19 POST, the basic, the intermediate and the advanced. I 20 have been trained in evidence, narcotics. All kinds of 21 trainings, various different tasks throughout the 22 department. 23 Q Are you currently assigned to the case 24 that's being presented to the Grand Jury? 25 A Yes. 31 1 Q And how long have you been so assigned? 2 A I have been on this case since early part 3 of June of '98. 4 Q And although you have an extensive 5 background, how many hazardous waste cases have you 6 investigated? 7 A This is my first. 8 Q Okay. And since the beginning of June, 9 has a large proportion of your time been spent 10 investigating this case? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Have you interviewed numerous witnesses? 13 A Yes, I have. 14 Q More than 50 or 60 witnesses? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Have you participated in any search 17 warrants? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Have you participated in any inspections 20 of properties? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Have you taken photographs? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Have you seized evidence? 25 A Yes. 32 1 Q Some of the evidence you have seized we 2 will put on the next time you are before the Grand Jury. 3 However, because we are in the middle of a break and we 4 want to get the Grand Jury started, did you bring with 5 you any videotaped evidence today? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did you bring with you any audio tapes 8 today? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 Q Did you bring both originals and 11 duplicates of some of these? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did you bring an original tape that was 14 seized with the search warrant? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Did you bring a videotape that was 17 provided to you by Mr. Robert Womack? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did you bring an audio tape that was 20 seized during a search warrant at the house of Mr. Robert 21 Womack? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Briefly, could you describe what 24 circumstances led you to be in receipt of the original 25 tape given to you by Mr. Robert Womack? 33 1 A Yes. I had interviewed Bob Womack. He 2 had come to the office asking to be interviewed. At that 3 time, he had mentioned that his wife had videoed the 4 demolition of the gas station. I asked him for that 5 videotape. 6 Approximately one month later, on August 7 25th, '98, he brought a copy of that tape and he laid it 8 on the counter. The clerk then brought it to me. 9 Q So Mr. Womack -- when you say Bob Womack, 10 is that Robert Roland Womack? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q He is in his early sixties? 13 A Yes. 14 Q You requested a tape, correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Approximately a month later, he brought 17 the tape to you? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Did you bring that tape to court today? 20 A Yes, I did. That is the tape. 21 Q Okay. This is a VCR tape, VHS tape? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And on the front jacket of it, is that 24 your handwriting? 25 A Yes. 34 1 Q And what handwriting -- before I ask that 2 question, this has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 1 for 3 identification purposes. 4 Is that the original tape brought to you 5 by Robert Womack? 6 A It is. 7 Q That's your handwriting on the front 8 cover? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Could you read that into the record for 11 the Grand Jury. 12 A I marked on the front of the tape May 2nd, 13 1998. Video of demolition footage by June Womack given 14 to D.A. by Robert Womack 8/25/98. 15 Q You originally interviewed Mr. Robert 16 Womack on July 30th, 1998, if you recall? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q And if you don't recall because you have 19 interviewed so many witnesses, you can refresh your 20 recollection with your reports. However, we need to note 21 for the record and to the Members of the Grand Jury that 22 that's what you are doing, that you are not doing it off 23 the top of your head, that you are actually going back 24 and reviewing your records. 25 Prior to coming here to testify today, we 35 1 briefly discussed what we thought you might want to show 2 the Grand Jury, correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q And on this original tape given to you on 5 8/25/98, you think probably -- how should this evidence 6 be presented to the Grand Jury? 7 A By watching it on a VHS machine. 8 Q Do you want to go through it fast 9 forward? Is that the -- 10 A Yes. We can play this at fast forward, 11 because this video, I believe, to actually be cut short. 12 Q And you believe that based on another 13 video that you eventually seized? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And that video was 8 millimeter video? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And that's been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 18 No. 3; is that correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And you seized that where? 21 A I seized this from a rear bedroom of the 22 Robert Womack residence. 23 Q And this one on the front cover of Grand 24 Jury Exhibit No. 3 has handwriting on it. 25 A It says Station and Kids at Akido. 36 1 Q Was this Grand Jury Exhibit No. 3, the 8 2 millimeter videotape, something you were looking for in 3 the search warrant? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Why did you believe there was a second 6 video? 7 A I believe -- I was told by Robert Womack 8 that the original video was an 8 millimeter size and what 9 he had brought me was actually a copy. And so the 10 purpose of seizing this tape was to examine the original 11 and see if it in fact continued on longer into the 12 demolition of the gas station and if it contained more 13 information pertinent to the case. 14 Q Does the original videotape been marked 15 Grand Jury -- which has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 16 No. 1, did it go to where the tank actually came out of 17 the ground? 18 A It had just started to be unearthed and 19 then the video went to an akido exhibition. 20 Q Did it appear to you -- how did that 21 transition appear to you? 22 A It appeared as if somebody had taped over 23 some original footage of the demolition. 24 Q Okay. Could you play that for the Members 25 of the Grand Jury, please. 37 1 A Sure. 2 Q And if possible, stop and identify people 3 who are on site that day. 4 A Okay. 5 Q This tape is approximately how long? 6 A This tape is approximately one hour long. 7 Q And fast forward, probably take about 8 fifteen minutes to go through it? 9 A Maybe less. 10 Q Thank you. 11 A Witness begins playing the videotape.) 12 Q There is an audio portion to this tape, 13 correct? 14 A Yes, there is. 15 Q But when you present the evidence on the 16 original tape which was seized, if the Grand Jury wants 17 to hear that part of the tape, then we will turn up the 18 audio on the television, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q But at this point, you are just going to 21 fast forward through? 22 A I will. The first person you saw walking 23 across the street was Robert Womack. That is Robert 24 Womack there. 25 Q Do you know what time of day that was? 38 1 A It was approximately 7:00 in the morning. 2 The person on the excavator machine is 3 William A. Wolin or we have called him Billy Junior. 4 That, again, is Robert Womack. 5 Q And this tape was given to you by Robert 6 Womack? 7 A That is correct. 8 Q And did he tell you who taped it? 9 A He told me his wife taped it. 10 Q And his wife being June Womack? 11 A Yes. His wife is June Womack. 12 Q To your knowledge, the City gives permits 13 to -- Mr. Hall, if you could stop the tape, please. We 14 are going to take our fourth break and we will be right 15 with you. 16 THE COURT: Good morning. 17 MR. IREY: Maybe if the members of the Grand Jury 18 could step out. We will leave the foreperson in with the 19 Presiding Judge. It will probably be three to five 20 minutes. 21 (Whereupon, pages 39 - 43 were reported and transcribed, but are under separate 22 confidential cover.) 23 24 25 39 1 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were held with Judge Harlan at 10:55 a.m.:) 2 3 MR. IREY: I don't know that I need to be in here 4 at all. We added two witnesses since you did your voir 5 dire. 6 THE COURT: He knows one of them? 7 MR. IREY: He may know one of them. I said, 8 Think of all the questions the Court asked you on Monday. 9 Go through them in on your head. 10 THE COURT: That's what we will do on the 11 record. We will see. We will call you back in a 12 minute. 13 MR. IREY: Thank you, your Honor. 14 (Whereupon, the Deputy District Attorney left the courtroom.) 15 16 THE COURT: Okay. We are outside the presence of 17 the other Members of the Grand Jury and everyone else, 18 except the Court Reporter and our Foreperson. 19 THE FOREPERSON: David Ray. 20 THE COURT: I have been informed they added two 21 more individuals to the list of witnesses and you may 22 know one or two. 23 THE FOREPERSON: I recognize the last name. It's 24 a very unusual last name, so... 25 THE COURT: What is the name? 40 1 THE FOREPERSON: Van De Pol. Van De Pol is a 2 company in Stockton that is a petroleum jobber, such as 3 the -- well, the -- Toms Sierra now bought out Mason Oil 4 some years ago. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 THE FOREPERSON: When you asked me to consider 7 the names and I did, all the names that were on the list 8 that I recognized, the company I worked for does not do 9 business with or, if we did, it wouldn't be any impact. 10 Like you said, we are not determining 11 guilt. I was just here to -- you know, to view the 12 evidence if I felt it was, you know, valid enough to hand 13 down an indictment. 14 When the name Van De Pol came up, Robert 15 does not ring a bell. But I am not sure if that is a 16 proper name and I have only known nicknames, such as 17 Marvin being the owner, there is Ron Van De Pol. There 18 is Tom, his brother, so -- and I didn't want to -- you 19 know, when I heard that, I thought, Well, maybe I better 20 let you know. 21 THE COURT: Well, the bottom line to this is, is 22 this a person that you solely do business with? 23 THE FOREPERSON: No. 24 THE COURT: All right. Do you feel that, even if 25 it is somebody that you think it is, that this would 41 1 somehow impair your ability to be fair and impartial? 2 THE FOREPERSON: No. Because as I think about it 3 now, the questions you asked just before that, I mean, 4 the Van -- Van De Pols I know would have no business ties 5 with these people involved here. And so at this point, 6 no. 7 I just wanted to go on record that I did 8 recognize that name, so that if something comes up later 9 on -- I mean, I am just being cautious at this point. I 10 don't know if I am being out of line or I shouldn't -- 11 THE COURT: No. I think that it's always 12 important to be prudent. That's what you are doing. But 13 at this point, you are not sure whether it's the person 14 you think it is. Is that correct? 15 THE FOREPERSON: That's correct. I mean, Robert. 16 I have never heard of a Robert Van De Pol. 17 THE COURT: Why don't we hang on for just a 18 minute and why don't we bring the District Attorney and 19 let's ask him some questions, just so that you can be 20 sure. 21 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 22 THE COURT: We now have invited the District 23 Attorney to be present. 24 Would you state your name again, sir. 25 MR. IREY: David Irey, I-R-E-Y. 42 1 THE COURT: Can you explain who -- he indicated 2 that he may have some knowledge of a Robert -- well, he 3 is not sure at this point who Robert Van De Pol is. Can 4 you give me background. 5 MR. IREY: My understanding, he was a former 6 employee of Wolin and Sons, heavy equipment operator. 7 THE COURT: Does he have any connections with Van 8 De Pole in the petroleum business; do you know? 9 MR. IREY: It is the same spelling of the last 10 name. That business operates out of San Joaquin County. 11 I have no knowledge whatsoever if there's an overlap, 12 your Honor. He is -- he is a witness in this case that 13 we just learned about based on phone records. 14 THE COURT: And if you were to make an offer of 15 proof as to his testimony, it would be in connection -- 16 it wouldn't be as a petroleum expert? 17 MR. IREY: Absolutely not. It would be as a -- 18 THE COURT: Percipient witness? 19 MR. IREY: -- percipient witness, heavy equipment 20 operator, or lack thereof. 21 THE COURT: Thank you. 22 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 23 (Whereupon, the Deputy District Attorney left the courtroom.) 24 25 THE FOREPERSON: I feel comfortable. All the Van 43 1 De Poles are all in the family business. 2 THE COURT: So you feel comfortable that this 3 isn't the same individual that you felt it was. But is 4 it fair to say that, even if it was, it wouldn't affect 5 your ability to be fair and impartial? 6 THE FOREPERSON: No. 7 THE COURT: We have cleared that up. 8 What's the second problem? Is there a 9 second problem? 10 THE FOREPERSON: That was the only one. That 11 name came up. 12 THE COURT: Terrific. How do you like sitting in 13 the Judge's chair? 14 THE FOREPERSON: Everything is going fine. I 15 felt bad I had to stop it because, of course, I am just 16 concerned about, you know, everybody's feelings of how 17 long it's going to take. But everything is going fine. 18 THE COURT: Sounds good. Terrific. I think you 19 have done the right thing. And you can proceed. 20 Continue to find everyone on this Grand Jury is 21 qualified. If you would like to call everyone back in, I 22 will slip out and do what I am supposed to be doing. 23 THE FOREPERSON: We will let you go out first. 24 ---oOo--- 25 44 1 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were held in front of the Grand Jury at 2 11:02 a.m.:) 3 THE FOREPERSON: What we will do is, I will take 4 a head count real quickly, since we did have to leave the 5 room, make sure we have all 19 of us here. 19. Okay. 6 The record show that everybody made it back into the 7 courtroom or the room here. 8 MR. IREY: Mr. Hall is going to continue with his 9 showing of the tape at this time, I hope. 10 THE WITNESS: You will see one of the Jackson 11 police officers pull up. 12 Q BY MR. IREY: What was the date of this 13 tape, if you know? 14 A May 2nd, 1998. 15 Q Sometimes in the bottom right-hand corner 16 it showed shows a date different. 17 A It shows May 1. 18 Q Are you certain it was May 2nd? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What day of the week is that? 21 A This vehicle is Bill Wolin, Senior. He is 22 part owner of Wolin and Sons Construction. He pulls up, 23 turns around, and basically parks over here. 24 Q You are pointing to the right edge of the 25 screen? 45 1 A Yeah, up by the dental office, itself. 2 There is a driveway that runs behind the gas station into 3 this parking lot area. 4 Q Earlier one of the Grand Jurors, who 5 hadn't put it in writing, wanted to know where on Highway 6 49 was this business? 7 A This address was 505 Sutter Street, which 8 is also Highway 88/49. It's directly across the street 9 from Swenson's Shoes and Coast to Coast or what is now 10 True Value Hardware. 11 Q Directly due south of what? 12 A Directly due south, Roland's dental 13 business. This is now a one-way street to the west. 14 Q That's on the west side of Highway 88 and 15 49? 16 A West side of Sutter Street or Highway 49 17 and 88. 18 THE SECRETARY: Can we clarify Roland's 19 relationship? 20 MR. IREY: If we can pause for a moment, please. 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 22 MR. IREY: I will ask Mr. Hall to do that. I was 23 waiting for him to stop speaking. We all have to learn. 24 It's the room and everything else. However, if I fail to 25 ask any question, that's why you keep pads with you. I 46 1 will be happy to read that into the record and have Mr. 2 Hall answer the question. 3 This is a very informal atmosphere, and 4 that's a plus. But I do have to follow the rules. And 5 the rules state that, at the end of Mr. Hall's 6 testimony -- and we are going to again bring Mr. Hall and 7 Mr. Moore in two or three times, because we are trying to 8 fit 60 people plus your 20, 80 people's schedules all 9 onto a nice chart. So Mr. Hall will be here on more than 10 one occasion. Before he stops each day, I will ask him 11 the questions that you have. 12 Q With that said, and without asking to 13 have it put in writing, who is Roland? And could you 14 explain the Womack family tree, as you currently 15 understand it. 16 A Roland Womack, to my understanding, is the 17 oldest son of Robert and June Womack. 18 Q And Robert and June Womack live in what 19 town? 20 A They live -- they actually live in county 21 territory, but they list their address as xxxxx Ridge 22 Road, Sutter Creek. It's actually at the intersection of 23 Ridge Road, New York Ranch Road in county territory. 24 Q And Roland Womack has a profession? 25 A Yes. Roland Womack is a dentist. 47 1 Q In what town? 2 A In the town of Jackson, located at 511 3 Sutter Street, which is the lot directly to the north of 4 505. 5 Q Does Mr. Womack have any other children 6 that live in the area? 7 A Yes. He has two other sons, one currently 8 living in the area, a Luke Womack. 9 Q And where does Luke Womack work? 10 A Luke works for Owens Illinois in Ione. 11 It's a sand plant. 12 Q And his other son? 13 A Larry Womack, to my understanding, is in 14 the Marysville area at this time. And he has a daughter 15 named Kimberly who lives in Dixon. 16 Q "He" being Robert Womack? Robert Womack 17 has a daughter? 18 A Yes, Robert Womack has a daughter named 19 Kimberly. 20 Q He has four children that you know of? 21 A That I know of. 22 Q And one of them owns the dentist shop 23 adjacent to where this video is being taken, correct? 24 A Yes. That would be Roland. 25 Q And when you pointed out Bill Wolin, who 48 1 owns Wolin and Sons, is he commonly referred to as Bill 2 Senior? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And he has a son named? 5 A William A. Wolin. He has another son 6 named Damian. 7 Q William A. Wolin also goes by? 8 A Billy Junior. 9 Q So some people call Mr. Wolin's son Billy 10 Junior, but his true and correct name is William A. 11 Wolin? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Okay. Go ahead and start it. Fast 14 forward it, please. When I said "it," I meant the 15 videotape. 16 A Okay. 17 Q And now this was Saturday instead of May 18 1st because of what reason? 19 A The City of Jackson would not allow the 20 demolition during a week day because school was in 21 session and it's a danger. The school is -- directly 22 behind this area to the west is the junior high. And so 23 they didn't want this demolish to take place during 24 school session. So they wanted him to complete this on a 25 weekend. 49 1 Q You have spent hundreds of hours 2 investigating this case, Mr. Hall? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Have you ever seen a permit issued by any 5 agency to remove the underground storage tanks? 6 A No. 7 Q When I ask, have you ever seen one, that 8 meant have you ever seen a permit that was issued prior 9 to the removal of the tanks? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you at some time see what I term a 12 retroactive permit, a partial permit after the fact? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And who filled that out? 15 A David Sterling Mason, III. 16 Q And Mr. Mason, is he the president or 17 owner of Mason Oil Company, to your knowledge? 18 A Yes, he is. 19 Q And Mason Oil Company, to your knowledge, 20 was purchased by a different company? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And what company was that? 23 A Toms Sierra Oil. 24 Q And Mr. Mason has a child or several 25 children in the area also, correct? 50 1 A Yes. To my knowledge, he has three sons 2 in the area. 3 Q David Mason, III, goes by different names, 4 too, correct? 5 A That's true. There is the oldest son, 6 David Mason. We have started to call him David Mason, 7 IV, but he tells us directly that he is David Mason; not 8 David Mason, IV. He operates and delivers gasoline to 9 the various stations at Mason Oil or Toms Sierra 10 Services. 11 Q Some people might call David III David 12 Senior? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And some might call David Mason David 15 Junior, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q The sign out front on the right corner of 18 the screen at this time is a -- what business? 19 A This one here? 20 Q Yeah. 21 A This was a gas station. Mason oil is the 22 sign in the right corner. 23 Q Did your investigation at any point 24 determine whether or not there had been some tanks pulled 25 at that site legally in the past? 51 1 A Yes, there had been in the past. 2 Q Had there been a tank what's called closed 3 in place done legally at that site? 4 A Yes. 5 Q That was done during the ownership of 6 David Mason? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q III? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q That was in the late '80s and early '90s? 11 A Yes, it was. 12 Q So at this very site in the video we are 13 watching tanks had been dealt with legally in the past? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q In '88, there was both a City and County 16 permit, correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q City permit for the plumbing and 19 electrical? 20 A And the gas. 21 Q Hook-ups to do with underground storage 22 tanks? 23 A Yes. 24 Q But the County issued an underground 25 storage tank permit? 52 1 A That's correct. 2 This is Mark Sherrill. 3 Q What's Mark wearing? 4 A Levis and a green T-shirt and ball cap. 5 Q At that point in the video, there are 6 three people you have mentioned? 7 A Yes. Actually, there's four people I have 8 mentioned. 9 THE FOREPERSON: Can we see what he just laid 10 down there with the arm? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 MR. IREY: This is going to be extremely 13 difficult to do a timing of -- the person who asked the 14 question is the Grand Jury Foreman. Again, we are not 15 supposed to ask questions. We might want to realize this 16 videotape will be shown several times and each inspector 17 will be checking that. 18 At any time, and maybe on a break, we can 19 work that out, where we fast forward through it or I give 20 you the fast forward. That's the first question we have 21 after a break, we would be happy to do that. But for 22 efficiency, we will come up with a system. If somebody 23 wants to see something, maybe raise their hand and 24 everybody has a pat note: The last 30 seconds slow, 25 please. Or something like that. So we don't have to try 53 1 to find this and take an hour finding the spot. 2 This particular part -- I am not supposed 3 to testify. Okay. 4 Q Does this particular part have anything 5 to do with the actual removal of underground storage tank 6 to your knowledge, other than piping, Mr. Hall? 7 A I am sorry. I don't understand what you 8 are asking there. 9 Q The first or -- the majority of the tape 10 that was originally given to you on August 25th. 11 A Mm-hmm. 12 Q That has very limited underground storage 13 tank pulling; is that correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q It's mostly demolition of the building? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Did you want me to let him know that what 19 that is? 20 Q If you would like, yes. 21 A The excavator had three attachments to 22 it. Mr. Wolin was rather proud of this piece of 23 equipment. This is the claw, which you saw doing the 24 demolition of the building. This particular attachment 25 pounds holes into the concrete and busts it up. 54 1 Q You say four people. That would be Mark 2 Sherrill. 3 Could you go through the list, please. 4 A That would be Robert Roland Womack, 5 William A. Wolin or Billy Junior, Bill Senior. And now 6 Mark Sherrill has arrived. This truck is being driven by 7 Mark Sherrill. That is him there. 8 Q Did you investigate where the trucks went, 9 Mr. Hall? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did your investigation lead you to any 12 interesting facts? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Did the trucks go somewhere in the morning 15 and different places in the afternoon? 16 A Yes, they did. 17 Q The trucks in the morning -- where did 18 they go? 19 A They went to Amador County landfill on 20 Buena Vista Road in Ione. 21 Q Have you seen receipts for that? 22 A Yes, I have. 23 Q Have you seen a check for that? 24 A Yes, I have. 25 Q That check was drawn on account of? 55 1 A KRL partnership. 2 Q Who is KRL partnership, to your knowledge, 3 at this time? 4 A KRL partnership -- we passed it. We have 5 a new person coming in the video here. This is son Luke 6 Womack, Robert Roland Womack's son. He arrived later in 7 the day. 8 Q On Saturday, the 2nd? 9 A On Saturday, May 2nd. 10 KRL partnership. To my understanding, the 11 initials KRL represent the different children, Kimberly, 12 Roland -- and we are not sure totally which one first, 13 Luke or Larry. But it was only KRL. 14 Through statements of Luke Womack, he 15 thinks at this time the only one on the partnership is 16 Roland, himself, Roland Womack, the oldest son; that 17 Kimberly, Luke and Larry are no longer on that 18 partnership. 19 Q In the past, though -- 20 A In the past, though, it was -- 21 Q Luke has told you that he was on the 22 partnership? 23 A He was in the past, yes. 24 Q But at this time, only whom? 25 A Only Roland at this time. 56 1 Q And what's Roland's wife's name? 2 A Her name is Nadine Womack. 3 Q She also works -- 4 A She works the front counter at the 5 dentist's office. 6 Q You participated in a search warrant on 7 October 30th, correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Just so everybody can recognize, this 10 gentleman right here is Bill Wolin Senior in the brown 11 coat and Levis. 12 Q That search warrant you seized several 13 documents, correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q At this time, you haven't been able to 16 fully review those documents; is that correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Those documents included documents on a 19 partnership; is that correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q What partnership? 22 A The KRL partnership. 23 Q What types of things did you seize? 24 A We seized check registers. We seized 25 titles -- for close-up, that is Robert Roland Womack. 57 1 See if I can get it to back up a little right there. 2 Whoops. Tricky buttons. 3 That was Luke on the right here. That's 4 Luke. This is Robert Roland Womack. This is William A. 5 Wolin or Billy Junior. 6 Q Again, that's the first video that was 7 handed to you by Robert Womack? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q On the longer video you are going show 10 next, that scene is longer, there are no people in it; is 11 that your understanding? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So the records you seized in the search 14 warrant you haven't been all the way through, correct? 15 A Not completely. 16 Q You don't understand exactly how the 17 partnership works? 18 A No, I don't. 19 Q There is a computer that was seized, 20 correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q You haven't been able to break the code on 23 that yet? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q That has some information on KRL? 58 1 A Yes. 2 Q At least, it has an icon? 3 A It has icon that states KRL. 4 Q You are attempting to find someone who is 5 familiar with breaking codes; is that correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q When you say you seized the records for 8 KRL, and that the people that currently own KRL is Roland 9 Womack and maybe Nadine, correct? 10 A Correct. 11 Q Where are all these records kept? 12 A They are kept in the Ridge Road home that 13 Robert Roland Womack lives in, in his business office. 14 He has a business office attached to the west -- 15 northwest corner of the home upstairs. 16 Q Okay. That red truck just turned the 17 corner? 18 A Yes. That red truck was operated by Nick 19 Hernandez. You will probably see him momentarily. 20 Although this begins and starts, begins and starts, we 21 never get a true continuous video out of this. 22 That right there. That is Nick 23 Hernandez. He is the son of local restaurant owner in 24 the area, Martell, Antonio's. This is the -- their 25 eldest son. And he works for Mark Sherrill, drives truck 59 1 occasionally for him. 2 Q During your investigation, did you make a 3 determination on who was actually the contractor on this 4 job? 5 A The contractor actually was Bob Womack, 6 Robert Roland Womack. 7 Q The contractor was not Wolin and Sons? 8 A No. They denied being the contractor on 9 the job. Robert sort of placed their name on documents. 10 Q What types of documents? 11 A On applications for the demolition permit 12 and also on, I believe it was the -- after the fact tank 13 pulling permit. 14 Q In fact, does Robert Womack even own this 15 property? 16 A No, he does not. 17 Q Who owns it? 18 A David Mason and Miriam Mason actually own 19 the property. 20 Q Did Robert Womack take a permit out on 21 this property for demolition? 22 A Yes, he did. 23 Q Whose name did Robert Womack put on that 24 permit? 25 A Roland Womack. 60 1 Q So Robert took a permit out in Roland's 2 name to knock down this building, correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q They did not own the building? 5 A They did not own the building. 6 We are getting near the end here. The 7 hoist, that's what used to lift cars out, is loaded on 8 this trailer. Pretty soon we are going to get to the 9 very short scratching around the tank area. 10 Q If you could pause for a moment, please. 11 A Sure. 12 Q Mr. Hall, this has been marked Grand Jury 13 Exhibit No. 5. 14 Do you recognize this exhibit? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And this is a four-page blow up of what? 17 A That is a personal check. And that's 18 written to an account number, which we believe is Robert 19 Roland's Womack's personal account. And that is the -- 20 that is a $500 check written to himself for tank reward. 21 Q And was this seized at whose house? 22 A Robert Roland Womack's house. 23 Q And what's the business? 24 A KRL partnership. 25 Q And you seized this on October 30th? 61 1 A That's correct. 2 Q In the bottom left-hand corner, it says? 3 A That says -- 4 Q If you can read it. 5 A That says: "Robert for tank reward?" 6 Q For $500? 7 A For $500. 8 Q And this account -- your preliminary 9 information, is this an account pay to the order? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And your preliminary information is that 12 this might be an account in whose name? 13 A In Robert Roland Womack's name. 14 Q And the date on the check? 15 A That is September 7th, 1998. 16 Q I know we will get to it in the future in 17 your testimony, but about, there was a meeting on 18 September 2nd, correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And that was with various members of the 21 District Attorney's Office, including myself, correct? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q And at that time, who was present? 24 A Robert Roland Womack was present. Roland 25 Womack was present. Dave Mason III, his son David Mason, 62 1 and Bill Wolin Senior, William A. Wolin, Billy Junior. 2 There was George Ryan and David Irey. There was myself, 3 one other investigator named Lance Hayden. 4 Q And for briefly, a couple minutes at the 5 beginning? 6 A A brief couple of minutes, oh, Mark 7 Sherrill was also there. And for a brief few minutes 8 Connie Sherrill, his wife, came in. And also an employee 9 of GRD, I believe, the testers. 10 Q The purpose of the meeting was compliance 11 with the law? 12 A Right. The purpose of the meeting was to 13 meet with them to go over this and try to arrange some 14 sort of compromise with them over this violation. 15 Q One of the biggest issues at the meeting 16 was the location of the tank; is that correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And this was September 2nd? 19 A That's correct. September 2nd. 20 Q So the tank was missing May, June, July 21 and August? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q So the tank had been missing four months 24 to the day, correct? 25 A That's correct. 63 1 Q And for four months, your investigation 2 had turned up what regarding the tank? 3 A Basically, we hadn't located the tank. I 4 had actually driven around Amador County to all sorts of 5 properties. I had actually flown in the air to view 6 properties owned by several of these people, made 7 numerous inquiries of local people. And we hadn't turned 8 the tank up. 9 It was just everybody's story was, We 10 didn't know where it went. It's missing. 11 Q What's their real story, 5:30, 6:00 at 12 night story? 13 A The first story was the tank had gone to 14 Owens Illinois, they thought that's where it had gone. 15 Because supposedly there was a tank out at Owens Illinois 16 that was leaking. And so that's where they at first said 17 that tank had gone. 18 Q And then? 19 A And then a second story. 20 Q Well, then it was determined what about 21 Owens Illinois? 22 A That, in fact, there wasn't a leaking tank 23 at Owens Illinois. What there was out there was a tank 24 whose fill neck was a little lower than it should be so 25 occasionally ground water would come in and they would 64 1 have to siphon it off. They had that repaired and 2 everything was find out there. We have all the documents 3 to back that up. 4 Q One of their sons -- one of Mr. Womack's 5 sons works for? 6 A Yes. Luke Womack works for Owens 7 Illinois, the alleged place the tank was supposed to have 8 gone. 9 Q But you inquired with Owens Illinois 10 yourself? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And your investigation, your strong 13 tentative decision was, the tank? 14 A Had never been there. 15 Q So after Mr. Womack was told that the tank 16 wasn't at Owens Illinois, did you hear a new story? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q What was that story, essentially? 19 A The second story then became that the 20 morning of the demolition, about 6:00 a.m., Robert Womack 21 and a few were there at Mel's on Highway 49 in Jackson 22 having breakfast. And at that time, Robert Roland Womack 23 was supposedly asking anybody that was in the place if 24 they wanted items from the gas station, because he was 25 just going to throw them all away so they could have any 65 1 various piece, part that was there. 2 Supposedly, he asked if anybody wanted a 3 fuel tank. And a gentleman who is unknown to Robert 4 Womack -- 5 Q To this day? 6 A To this day. 7 -- said he would take the tank. And so 8 Robert Womack told him to then show up later on in the 9 afternoon with a truck and trailer and he could have it. 10 Q And we will go into this in much more 11 detail about who you interviewed and what witnesses 12 stated after each of those witnesses testifies. 13 Okay. At that point, Mr. Womack had told 14 you that -- he has told to you this day that it was 15 loaded that night, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q On an unknown truck, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do other people's stories parallel that? 20 A Yes. Everybody basically that was asked 21 that was on that job site basically had the same story. 22 Q All the way through the September 2nd 23 date, correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q Their story was something about -- 66 1 A Well, it was getting late. It was 2 beginning to rain hard. And the truck pulled up. The 3 tank was loaded on it. But nobody really noticed what 4 kind of truck it was, what kind of trailer it was, who 5 was driving it, who drove it away, who chained it up. 6 They don't know nothing. Just instantly appeared to be 7 placed on a truck and it drove off. 8 Q Right as the tank came out of the ground? 9 A Right as the tank came out of the ground. 10 Q We met on September 2nd and reinforced to 11 everybody present it was important to find the tank, 12 correct? 13 A Absolutely. 14 Q We discussed whether or not somebody 15 should offer a he reward for the tank, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And I mentioned the number $1,000? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And Mr. Womack said? Did he think it was 20 a good idea? 21 A Yeah, he thought it was a good idea. 22 Q And did he -- to your knowledge, did he 23 then place an ad? 24 A I was told he did. I never personally saw 25 the paper myself. 67 1 Q Did he also tell you that he posted it 2 around town? 3 A Yes, he did. 4 Q Did you look around town to see if the ad 5 was posted anywhere? 6 A Yes, I did. I looked in ten different 7 business locations, the billboards and normal poster 8 boards for the little flier that he had placed. 9 Q Did you see it anywhere? 10 A Nowhere. 11 Q On Tuesday, I think it's September 8th, 12 this year, was that Admissions Day? Is that the 9th? I 13 apologize. 14 On Tuesday, September 8th, the tank showed 15 up in Lodi, correct? If you don't know, I am not trying 16 to put words in your mouth. Did the tank show up? 17 A The tank showed up in Lodi on -- at least, 18 the day I viewed it on the 10th. But I believe it showed 19 up at the Lodi location on the 8th. 20 Q Okay. And did Mr. Womack make any 21 statements regarding the tank showing up to you? 22 A That the person had called him in response 23 to his reward ad; that he met -- or that person was paid 24 the reward; and that that person then was probably the 25 one that delivered the tank to the Lodi Jim Thorpe Oil 68 1 Company; and that he did not know who it was, did not 2 ask. 3 Q At any time, did he tell you that he made 4 a check out to himself? 5 A No. He didn't tell me that. 6 Q And the check is for $500; not a thousand; 7 is that correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q You have skimmed the ledger for this 10 checking account KRL, correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And are there any other checks for a 13 reward in there? 14 A No. 15 Q That's the only reward check for the tank? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Okay. Back to the video, please. 18 A Okay. Fast forward or regular? 19 They are now scratching along the side 20 where the fuel tank is located with the third attachment, 21 which is a large bucket about five feet across. 22 Q Stop, please. 23 A Sure. 24 Q Could you play at normal speed. 25 A Regular speed? 69 1 Q That transition between across the street 2 video and where it turns into akido, please. 3 A Okay. 4 Q And with sound. 5 A (Witness complies.) 6 The music is coming from the Lincoln 7 Navigator, where the video is being taken from. 8 Q Could you name the people in the video, 9 please, at this stage. 10 A I'm sorry? I couldn't hear you. 11 Q Could you point out who is in the video. 12 A The gentleman in the hole, I realize it's 13 fuzzy. Mark Sherrill in the back. 14 Q In green still? 15 A In green still. 16 Nick Hernandez stepped out of the hole 17 carrying a pipe. This is Luke Womack. This is Robert 18 Womack. 19 Q Again, it states May 1st, but it was May 20 2nd? 21 A Yes. The camera both was off one day and 22 plus approximately three hours in time. 23 Q How many dozen times you have been told it 24 was pouring rain at this stage? 25 A Dozens of time. Every time I talked to 70 1 one of these people, it was pouring down rain. It was 2 dark, pouring down rain. 3 Q The street is dry? 4 A Yeah, the street is dry at this time. 5 Q Stop it, please. 6 That is dated May 28th? 7 A That's dated May 28th. 8 Q This is the tape Mr. Womack gave you? 9 A Yes. 10 Q The referral to the D.A.'s Office was 11 between May 2nd and May 28th; is that correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q And that's the end of the tank removal, 14 the beginning of akido on the first tape you received. 15 Correct? 16 A That is correct. 17 Q Okay. Mr. Hall, without rewinding it, 18 could you go ahead and fast forward through -- before we 19 get to the videotape, why don't we go ahead and show the 20 video of Grand Jury Exhibit No. 2. 21 This tape has been marked Grand Jury 22 Exhibit No. 2. Do you recognize it? 23 A Yes, I do. 24 Q And that's an original videotape? 25 A Yes, this is the original videotape. 71 1 Q Taken by whom? 2 A By myself. 3 Q On what date? 4 A On October 30th, 1998. 5 Q At what location? 6 A At xxxxx Ridge Road. This is Robert 7 Womack's home. 8 Q During a search warrant? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q And it was a search warrant signed by 11 Superior Court Judge in this county? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q Judge Harlan? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And that warrant has been sealed? 16 A Yes, it has. 17 Q Under order of Judge Harlan? 18 A That is correct. 19 Q And the purpose of taking the videotape 20 was twofold, correct? 21 A Yes, it is. 22 Q And one of the -- what are the reasons, 23 basically? 24 A The original reason for a video such as 25 this is to show the entrance of the home, the serving of 72 1 the search warrant, to verify that, you know, what type 2 of response you get when you arrive at the home. You 3 never know on a search warrant who is home, normally. 4 And so the video is to document the actual entry to the 5 home. 6 The second purpose is to -- to show the 7 condition of the home prior to the search and the service 8 of the search warrant. 9 Q And in this case, you both took a video, 10 but you also walked someone through the house; is that 11 correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Who did you walk through the house? 14 A I made a phone call to Roland at his 15 office, because Robert and June were on their way to Las 16 Vegas apparently. 17 Q When you got to the site that day, you 18 were there with several other peace officers, correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And we will go into that later. And when 21 you knocked on their front door, was someone in the home? 22 A Yes. There was a carpet cleaner in the 23 home cleaning the carpets of the residence. 24 Q When I say when you knocked on the door, 25 you weren't the actual individual who knocked on the 73 1 door, correct? 2 A No. I was standing behind probably four 3 other officers who were going to the front door. 4 Q The carpet cleaner let you in? 5 A Yes. 6 Q You immediately or early on called Roland 7 Womack? 8 A Yeah. Minutes after I contacted the 9 carpet cleaner and he told me that he had obtained the 10 keys and permission to be there from Roland. So I called 11 Roland Womack to come to the home. 12 Q And he was there off and on the entire 13 time you were at the home? 14 A Yes. 15 Q But he walked around initially with you, 16 correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And he showed you where a videotape was, 19 correct? 20 A That is correct. 21 Q And that videotape will be something we 22 are about to see, which is a longer version of the -- 23 A That's correct. 24 Q A longer version of the tape we just saw? 25 A Yes. It's the actual 8 millimeter tape 74 1 videoed by June Womack. 2 Q And when Roland Womack walked around the 3 house, you said he had some notes in his hands, correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And notes that you thought were locations 6 for items? 7 A Yes. They -- when I had contacted him by 8 phone, I had asked him if he was in contact with Robert 9 to offer him the chance to tell us exactly where the 10 items we were looking for were at. And this note that 11 Roland had some penned down locations of where certain 12 items were. 13 Q And most of the stuff you were looking for 14 were KRL records, correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Roland, to your knowledge owns KRL, 17 correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Roland needed notes to find KRL paperwork; 20 is that your understanding? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q In whose house? 23 A In Robert Womack's home. 24 Q Okay. You can go ahead and put the video 25 in, please. 75 1 I think we need to play this at straight 2 time, if that's okay. 3 A Yeah. It's not extremely long, but... 4 Little warning at first. When it starts, the camera is a 5 little up and down, because there is a lot of people in 6 front of me. I am trying to climb steps, so... 7 Do you want audio on for this also? 8 Q Yes, please. One of the reasons that you 9 take this -- 10 A Yeah. 11 This is the correct day and time. 12 Q In this is your narrative? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So you originally spoke with Nadine 15 Womack? 16 A She answered the phone at the office. I 17 asked her to have Roland respond. 18 Q That's pretty much -- I'm sorry. At this 19 point, you are going over while you are taking the 20 videotape and it's basically to make sure that you leave 21 the residence in the same manner in which you arrived, 22 correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And that's the purpose of most of the 25 videotape, is that ingress and egress? 76 1 A That's correct. It's just to -- in case 2 there was ever a question or a claim that we had 3 ransacked the home, left it in a haphazard way. This is 4 to show you how it was when we showed up. Photographs 5 were taken later at the completion to show how we left 6 it. 7 Q Before you left that day, you walked the 8 entire house with Roland Womack? 9 A Yes, I did. At the end of the search 10 warrant, I had Roland go room to room, every portion of 11 the room, to show him exactly where I collected evidence, 12 where we had searched, where we had not searched and to 13 show him how we left the home. 14 Q You left a copy of items seized with him? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Who owns those vehicles, if you know, Mr. 17 Hall? 18 A Those vehicles are registered to KRL. 19 Q All of them? 20 A All of them. So the true owner at this 21 point could be Roland. It could be Bob. We do have a 22 signed pink slip on one of them where the signature is 23 Robert Womack. That would be for this red Roadster. 24 The reason we are so careful on the 25 vehicles, Robert Womack loves his cars. We just wanted 77 1 to avoid any trouble later with that. 2 Q KRL signed the agreement to purchase 505 3 Sutter Street; is that correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q That was signed by Roland Womack? 6 A Roland Womack, Nadine Womack. 7 Q Roland and Nadine signed the supplemental 8 addendum to the agreement, as far as loaning the money to 9 David Mason, correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 This was the only forceful opening. We 12 were able to remove the door hinge pins and not kick 13 anything in. This is Robert Womack's office, located 14 above the garage. 15 Q These individuals are whom? 16 A Investigator Jim Walshaw with D.A.'s 17 Office. And this is CHP Officer Russ Moore. 18 Q Russ Moore is Haz Mat specialist? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Could you pause it, please. This is 21 extremely important. I am going to put it on the 22 record. And I know that it's the right thing to do. 23 They are about to show where he keeps his 24 key to his safe. I will let his attorney know that the 25 grand jurors saw this location. But just letting you 78 1 know, of course, we don't want anybody to know where this 2 key to this safe with this type of stuff in it is. 3 Anyway, I wanted to put that on the record. Thanks. 4 That fax machine is KRL's? 5 A Yes, it is. 6 Q In fact, that's the number on the face of 7 the check, correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q 296-1510? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And that's actually not a business; that's 12 a fax number at this time? 13 A That is right. 14 This is located also above the garage. 15 Q Who pays the house payments on this? 16 A KRL makes the house payments. 17 Q Out of this same account that this check 18 has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5? 19 A That's correct. 20 After the initial entry, only two of us 21 went into this main portion of the house. 22 Q Who would that have been? 23 A Russ Moore and myself. 24 Q And there weren't people all over the 25 house looking in every single drawer? 79 1 A No, absolutely not. 2 Q You and Russ Moore were looking for 3 specific items, correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Did you find some of them in some of these 6 rooms? 7 A Yes. 8 Q This has been labeled Grand Jury Exhibit 9 No. 4. 10 Was this found in one of those rooms? 11 A Yes, it was. In fact, you are looking at 12 the dresser where it was found now. 13 Q And what is that tape of? 14 A This is a micro cassette tape. And this 15 was a recording made by Robert Womack. He was concealing 16 a tape recorder within his pocket and it recorded his 17 conversation with the City of Jackson regarding the 18 permit. And this was found in the upper left -- 19 Q So he was surreptitiously recording? 20 A That's correct. He was illegally taping a 21 city official. 22 Q I have to strike that. I have to play the 23 Judge. Although Mr. Hall probably has a strong opinion 24 on the legality of whether or not the surreptitious 25 taping of a conversation was illegal, he did say it was 80 1 illegal. 2 To your knowledge, are people supposed to 3 surreptitiously tape one another? 4 A They are not supposed to. 5 Q And your pretty positive of that? 6 A That's right. I have read the code 7 section that says they are not to do that. 8 Q Okay. You found this in Mr. Womack's 9 bedroom? 10 A Yes. It was still contained within a 11 micro cassette recorder, itself. 12 Q And Mr. White has been subpoenaed? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And Ms. Martin also? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Their voices are on this tape? 17 A Yes, they are. 18 This is the bedroom where another item 19 was located, in this ... and it was actually pointed out 20 to me by Roland Womack, the son. 21 Q He pointed out where the video camera was? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q And was the videotape with it? 24 A Yes. It was located underneath the camera 25 bag. 81 1 Q Been marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 3? 2 A Yes. 3 That is Roland Womack, the son. He 4 arrived on scene. He is looking for the key to the safe, 5 which is in the right corner of the office there under 6 that lower cupboard. What I thought was a closet is 7 actually a three compartment area. The safe is in the 8 lower section. 9 Q This is KRL's office or Bob and KRL's? 10 A It's Robert Womack's office. And that's 11 where all the KRL documents are located that I found. 12 Q At that point, Roland appeared to not know 13 where the key was; is that correct? 14 A That's correct. At one point, he thought 15 he might have to go home to get a key to it. He said, My 16 dad always keeps the keys in one of these model cars. 17 And he kind of looked around in each one. Eventually 18 found it. 19 This search warrant is really very 20 specific. So we didn't ransack every cupboard or closet. 21 We are not looking for the everyday items. We are 22 looking for specific documents. 23 The remainder of this footage is 24 basically... 25 Q Can you fast forward through that? 82 1 A Panning the outside of the residence. 2 Q Besides Mr. Roland Womack, did any other 3 Womack child show up that day? 4 A Yes. Luke Womack showed up a little bit 5 later to spell Roland for a while. 6 Q So you left the house the same way you 7 entered it? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Roland verified that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You left a list of everything you seized 12 with him? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Much of what you seized was in that 15 office? 16 A A good 85 percent was taken from that 17 office. The only other two items removed were the micro 18 cassette tape and the 8 millimeter tape from the two 19 bedrooms. 20 Q Okay. The 8 millimeter you identified 21 already as Grand Jury Exhibit No. 3. But you have 22 brought a copy that is VHS today; is that correct? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And earlier you testified this tape is 25 longer; is that correct? 83 1 A This tape is approximately 31 minutes 2 longer. 3 Q Does it have substantially more of one 4 type of activity than the other tape? 5 A Yes. This tape will show the actual 6 excavation of the tank, cutting of the pipe and the 7 beginning of the lifting out of the ground. 8 Q Maybe you could at this time just hit the 9 fast forward down low and not on the TV, because that is 10 quicker. 11 A Yeah. 12 Q And then play just the late afternoon part 13 of the tape, Mr. Hall. 14 A Okay. 15 Q Mr. Hall, does this tape also cut off? 16 A Yes, it does. 17 Q Where does it cut off? 18 A As the tank is being lifted out of the 19 hole, we go to akido. 20 Q We are viewing a complete copy of Grand 21 Jury Exhibit No. 3, correct, Mr. Hall? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q When you say correct, it just goes up to 24 the akido, correct? 25 A It goes up to the akido. There is 84 1 actually more footage of a vacation, I believe. I didn't 2 copy that. 3 Q But if the grand jurors would like to see 4 the end of the tape past the akido, we can make that 5 available? 6 A Absolutely. 7 Q This tape you actually seized on October 8 30th? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Roland showed you where it was? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Roland being Roland Womack? 13 A That's right. 14 Q Were you surprised that the tape was 15 longer? 16 A No, not really. 17 Q Had you hoped that it went even further 18 than it does? 19 A Yes. 20 Q You had hoped that it went how far? 21 A Right to the point where I could see the 22 tank loaded onto the actual vehicle that hauled it away. 23 Q If fact, you interviewed Mark Sherrill 24 earlier this week; is that correct? 25 A That's correct. 85 1 Q Does Mark Sherrill say there was taping 2 going on after this cuts off? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did Mark Sherrill have some story 5 regarding who taped over it? 6 A Yes. 7 Q What was that story? 8 A He said that he believed Roland had taken 9 the camera and then went to video the akido episode with 10 his children. 11 Q And that would have been May 28th or so? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q We don't have the exact date of that, do 14 we? 15 A No. 16 Q You can start. 17 A Some are faster than others. 18 Q Have you been told by Mark Sherrill that 19 he wasn't there when the tank came out? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Have you been told by Bill Wolin, Jr. he 22 didn't know whose truck it was loaded onto? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q Have you been told by Bob Womack he had no 25 idea whose truck it was loaded onto? 86 1 A Yes. 2 Q Earlier this week, did Mark Sherrill tell 3 you who drove the truck? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Who drove the truck the tank was on? 6 A Robert Roland Womack. 7 Q For five months, you were told nobody 8 knew, correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q You were told by Mr. Womack, correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Earlier this week, Mr. Sherrill reached an 13 agreement with our office, correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Whose truck was Mr. Womack driving? 16 A Mark Sherrill's truck. 17 Q Mark Sherrill tell you he didn't know 18 whose truck it was? 19 A Yes, he did. 20 Q Earlier this week, he told you whose truck 21 it was? 22 A That's right. 23 Q And it was Mark Sherrill's truck, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q Why didn't Mark drive it? 87 1 A Mark did not want to drive the truck 2 because he thought there would be a problem if he got 3 stopped with a fuel tank on his vehicle with not having 4 placards. He wasn't sure of the fuel content. He didn't 5 want to get a ticket. 6 Q And so who drove it? 7 A Robert Womack. 8 Q Where did Robert Womack drive the tank? 9 A Robert Womack drove the tank approximately 10 one mile out of the city limits of Jackson to Mark 11 Sherrill's property. 12 Q Did Robert Womack originally tell Mark 13 Sherrill that he was going to drive it to his ranch 14 called the Bossi Ranch? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Is the Bossi Ranch the exact same place 17 the dispensers went? 18 A It is. 19 Q The dispensers go to Bossi Ranch Friday? 20 A Correct. 21 Q On Saturday, Womack says that he is taking 22 the tank to the Bossi Ranch, correct? 23 A Correct. 24 Q But for five months, you were told some 25 guy picked it up who happened to be at Mel's? 88 1 A That's correct. And it was driven away to 2 an unknown location. 3 Q And then on September 2nd, we met, 4 correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q And by September 7th, Robert Womack is 7 writing a check to somebody for a reward, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Who did he write that check to? 10 A Himself or to his account. 11 Q And then the tank showed up in Lodi, 12 correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And for a while, Mr. Thorpe and Mr. Womack 15 told us that only the truckdriver was there when the tank 16 was delivered? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And then we learned from Mr. Thorpe last 19 week or so who else was present when the tank was 20 delivered to Lodi? 21 A An unknown person with a truck and single 22 axle trailer. 23 Q And who else? 24 A We learned that Robert Womack was there 25 when the tank arrived. 89 1 Q Just happened to be in Lodi? 2 A No. I believe -- don't know exactly how 3 he ended up there, but Richard Thorpe said that Robert 4 Womack was there when the tank arrived. He met another 5 gentleman with an older '80s dark blue Chevy or GMC 6 flatbed type truck with a one-axle trailer. And the tank 7 was on it. 8 Q Okay. 9 A We are getting close to the point in the 10 video where it shows them scratching alongside the tank. 11 And from there, you will remember the footage is rather 12 short, as far as the tank. 13 Q In the first tape, it was 15 to 30 seconds 14 or so? 15 A That's right. 16 Q Maybe a little bit longer. Correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And you are going to play the full 19 underground storage tank removal that hasn't been 20 recorded over, correct? 21 A Right, correct. 22 Q It shows them doing peculiar things with 23 waste water, doesn't it, Mr. Hall? 24 A Yes, it does. 25 Q Are they actually taking the water out of 90 1 the hole and dumping it out on clean dirt? 2 A Yes, they are. 3 Q That was missing from the video Robert 4 gave you, correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Earlier, I asked you about the morning the 7 trucks went to the dump, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q They were paid -- 10 A Yes. 11 Q -- for at the dump by KRL? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Where did the trucks go in the afternoon? 14 A We hadn't determined where the trucks had 15 gone in the afternoon, although the trucks were turning 16 south on Highway 49. We finally, after speaking with 17 Mark Sherrill -- 18 Q Earlier this week? 19 A Earlier this week. 20 Q For the first time? 21 A For the first time, we determined where 22 they went. 23 Q Where did they go? 24 A They went to two locations, according to 25 Mark Sherrill. One was his piece of property located one 91 1 mile east of the city limits of Jackson. There he said 2 he took dirt and clean concrete. 3 The rest of the dirt and concrete with 4 re-bar in it and soil removed from the lot, he took to 5 the Georgia Pacific mill in Martell, where they have a 6 site where they have been dumping debris from demolishing 7 their buildings out there. 8 Q Mr. Fourt -- F-O-U-R-T? 9 A Yes. 10 Q -- is the one more familiar with 11 contamination at this site. 12 To your knowledge, was this site 13 contaminated? 14 A I believe it is. 15 Q Contaminated with fuel contamination? 16 A Yes. 17 Q So the fuel-contaminated soil was hauled 18 by Mark Sherrill's trucks? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q To somebody else's property? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q And maybe his own? 23 A Possibly his own. 24 Q Luke Womack -- I don't think we have asked 25 questions about him. Luke Womack also told you he wasn't 92 1 there when the tank came out of the ground, correct? 2 A That's correct. Luke said it was raining 3 too hard for him, and he told his Dad he was out of 4 there. 5 Q Does Luke show up in the rest of the video? 6 A He actually cuts the pipes and standing 7 there as it's coming out of the hole. 8 Q But Luke told you as recently as two weeks 9 or three weeks ago that he wasn't there, correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q So Bill Junior doesn't know whose truck 12 until recently, correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Luke wasn't there? 15 A Luke wasn't there. 16 Q Nick Hernandez wasn't there? 17 A Nick told me he was not there. 18 Q Mark Sherrill told you he was not there? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And some unknown guy shows up in a truck? 21 A That's right. 22 Q Until earlier this week when? 23 A When Mark cleared some of that up for us. 24 Q And a couple weeks ago, Billy Junior 25 cleared some of it up, correct? 93 1 A Yes, he also did. 2 Q Did he tell you whose truck he loaded it 3 on? 4 A Told me he was real sure that it was Mark 5 Sherrill's truck. He was unsure of the trailer. 6 Q Unsure of who owned the trailer? 7 A Unsure of who owned the trailer. 8 Q But he knew whose truck? 9 A Yes. 10 Q So all of these people could have told you 11 this back in May, correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 The footage you are seeing now is not 14 included in the first video. 15 Q You can turn it up, please. 16 This is being narrated by whom? 17 A June Womack, Robert's wife. 18 Q She actually tells dates and times? 19 A Yes, she gives times. She really gives 20 the times when the tank is starting to come out. She 21 will tell you it's a certain time, and it's starting to 22 come out. She even says, "One of the tanks." I am not 23 sure if she was under the impression there was more than 24 one. 25 Q Isn't it a fact, if you know, that it was 94 1 two 1,000 gallon tanks and it basically looks like one 2 tank? 3 A Right. It's a dual compartment tank, 4 double wall. 5 Q Unleaded and premium type of thing? 6 A Right. 7 Q So by this time of day, all of this 8 garbage going into this truck doesn't go to the landfill? 9 A It doesn't go to the landfill. 10 Q Mr. Womack told you that you everything 11 went to the landfill, correct? 12 A Everything. 13 Q One of Mr. Womack's kids shows up in the 14 video here; is that correct? 15 A I believe at this point, you won't see 16 him. 17 Q Okay. Was that in the first video? 18 A No. 19 Q So the first video, Larry Womack was cut 20 out, correct? 21 A In the first video, June Womack narrates 22 and says: There is Larry's friend Tony. But she never 23 says, There is Larry or, Here is Larry. And we never see 24 Larry. 25 He does show up in this video. She 95 1 actually pans the camera to him and says, Look at the 2 camera for your mother. 3 Q Could you back it up for about 20 seconds, 4 please. 5 A Sure. 6 Q Go ahead forward now please. 7 On Monday of this week, did Mark Sherrill 8 tell you something about this truck that's about to 9 appear? 10 A Mark Sherrill has two Kenworth trucks. 11 Q That one? 12 A Ten-wheel dump trucks. That is one of 13 them. 14 Q Wait. Go back. You looked at me just 15 as -- 16 A I know what you are referring to now. 17 Okay. Right here. It's going to be -- 18 you have to watch. You will see another red dump truck 19 go by with a white bed. He is going to wave. Nick 20 there. There it goes. That's Mark Sherrill in his other 21 red Kenworth dump truck. 22 Q Mark Sherrill told you earlier this week 23 what? 24 A That that is the truck that hauled the 25 tank. 96 1 Q That who drove? 2 A That Robert Womack drove. 3 Q To whose property? 4 A To Mark Sherrill's property. 5 Q Mr. Hall, could you go ahead and fast 6 forward all the way to where they are actually working on 7 the pit. 8 A Sure. 9 That was Larry. Did you want to see 10 Larry? 11 Q No. 12 A Okay. Now they are working on the pit. 13 He has the bucket attachment on there. And you can see 14 he is digging in the hole alongside the tank, basically 15 spreading the soil across the lot. 16 That's June. 17 Q Was almost all of this part of the tape 18 cut out? I am sure the Grand Jurors just saw it, but 19 this part of the tape? 20 A In the first video, there was none of 21 this. 22 Q So what Robert Womack gave you was a 23 partial video? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q That had been edited? 97 1 A Yes. 2 Soon you will see water and soil coming 3 from that bucket. And he will spread that across to the 4 right. 5 Q In fact, wasn't it a month or two before 6 you even knew June Womack had taken this tape? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Although Mr. Womack had been asked, Who 9 took pictures? 10 A Yes. Robert first states that he believed 11 there was a video being taken of this by someone who 12 lived two houses to the south of here. 13 Q So you investigated that? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q So you asked a bunch of neighbors if they 16 took a video? 17 A Right. I didn't find any that did. 18 I did speak with a witness across the 19 street. Her name is Mary Nell Bryant. And she told me 20 that, Well, the wife was doing the video camera work 21 right from that big black Lincoln Navigator. 22 That's when I asked Bob for the video. 23 Q And you got it four weeks later? 24 A And about four weeks later, I got the 25 first version. There is some water in that now, kind of 98 1 mixing it. Pretty soon, you will get some big scoops of 2 water. You can see the water running out of the bucket 3 now. 4 Q So if this water had gasoline in it, the 5 gasoline would be being mixed with the clean soil, 6 correct? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Do you know if a few days later they 9 tested the water? 10 A Yes, they did. 11 Q Did it come back with gasoline 12 constituents in it? 13 A Yes, it did. 14 Q That was after the hole filled with rain, 15 correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q So that would have been diluted? 18 A Diluted, yes. 19 Q So no one has any idea what the 20 concentration was when they were dumping it on the ground 21 there on May 2nd in the evening, correct? 22 A Correct. 23 Those buckets are being taken all the way 24 over now. They are being dumped across the side. 25 Q The storm drain there drains into Jackson 99 1 Creek, correct, to your knowledge? 2 A Yes, it does. 3 Q At one point they, wanted to empty the 4 waste water around May 6th into Jackson Creek, correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q They were told they could not do it? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q That was the diluted water, correct? 9 A That was the diluted water. 10 Q So Mark Sherrill had to haul it to the 11 ponds at Buena Vista landfill? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q We are going to go into the specifics of 14 Bill Junior's deal later. 15 Bill Junior also reached an agreement, 16 correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q The reason that you are letting the Grand 19 Jurors know that is because they need to weigh that into 20 their considerations, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q In fact -- 23 A These pipes you see are part of the pipes 24 that were attached to the fuel tank. 25 Q Originally, Mr. Womack told people that he 100 1 had actually dry iced this tank, correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q To this date, do you believe -- do you 4 have any information that the tanks were ever dry iced? 5 A I could not find any dry ice location that 6 sold any to him or KRL. And information from Billy 7 Wolin, Jr. was that, to his knowledge, he hadn't dry iced 8 the tanks. 9 Q So again, if Mr. Womack had originally 10 told you or others that he hadn't dry iced it, you 11 wouldn't have had to do the investigation, correct? I 12 asked that too quickly. 13 So if you knew the truth regarding whether 14 or not the tanks had been dry iced, you wouldn't have had 15 to investigate, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Mr. Womack told people that he thought 18 that the tanks had been dry iced, correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Could you identify the people in the video 21 at this time. 22 A Okay. This is Nick, Mark Sherrill, Luke 23 Womack. 24 Q Each of which had told you they weren't 25 there when the tank came out? 101 1 A They weren't there. 2 Q Could you pause it, please. 3 When you interviewed Billy Wolin a couple 4 weeks ago, did he tell you Mr. Womack talked to him about 5 the missing tank? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Right after the tank removal? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q What did he tell you transpired? 10 A He was operating another piece of 11 equipment on another job site. And Robert Womack had 12 actually driven out to that job site and had told 13 Billy -- he said, If anyone asks you about this tank, 14 don't tell anybody. 15 Q Did he actually make up a story for Billy 16 to tell others? 17 A That it was late, that it was dark, it was 18 raining, and they just wanted to get out of there. They 19 loaded the truck or loaded this tank on a truck. Don't 20 know who it is. And it was gone. 21 Q And that's the story Billy told you for 22 the first couple of months? 23 A The first time, yes. 24 Q Okay. Go ahead. Thanks. 25 Mr. Womack also told Wolin Senior not to 102 1 give the tank, correct? 2 A He also told Bill Senior -- asked Bill 3 Senior not to show me his video. Bill Senior had been 4 videoing this because he markets this piece of equipment 5 to other jobbers, because it has this unique ability to 6 switch attachments real fast and it does many things. So 7 he videos this and tries to get other people to hire him. 8 Q That's actually the tank on the right 9 side? 10 A Yes. This -- this is the tank right 11 here. You see the two fill spouts. They are shoving 12 gravel off the top of it now. That's Luke Womack. The 13 pipes coming from it are the pipes that go to the center 14 island where the dispensers usually stand. 15 Q Besides hazardous waste manifest 16 eventually, have you seen -- of the tank, was there any 17 Manifest for the piping? 18 A None. 19 Q Do you even know where the piping went? 20 A Not for sure. 21 Q Do you know where the soil went for sure? 22 A Mark Sherrill's property and possibly 23 Georgia Pacific. 24 Q Was it tested before it was hauled? 25 A No. 103 1 Q In fact, just two weeks ago, you learned 2 for the first time they worked half the day on Sunday, 3 correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q So they hauled soil for half the day on 6 Sunday, May 3rd? 7 A Yes, that's correct. I was told by Billy 8 Junior that he excavated on Sunday six inches off the 9 entire lot and two feet below the original bottom of the 10 tank hole and all that soil was hauled off; but not to 11 the county landfill. 12 Q And not tested? 13 A And not tested. 14 Q This job for the removal of this tank was 15 bid by a professional earlier, correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Who was that professional? 18 A Keith Tallia. 19 Q Three weeks before or so? 20 A Yes. On April 13th of 1998. 21 Q David Mason requested he make a bid? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q David Mason denies that, though, correct? 24 A I want to note right here, at this point 25 in the video, this is where the first video given to me 104 1 goes to akido. Now you will see this one will continue. 2 Q I won't ask any more questions until this 3 ends. 4 A So once again, we have Nick, Mark, Bob 5 Womack, Luke Womack. The gentleman you saw walk behind 6 with a purple sweatshirt at one point -- that was Billy 7 Junior He just got out of the tractor to stretch his 8 legs for a second. 9 This is a pipe. Whoops. 10 Q When you say "a pipe," that was part of 11 the underground storage piping system, correct? 12 A That's correct. That was just dropped 13 right into the hole. 14 What he is attempting to do now is pull 15 the tank sideways with a chain. 16 Q Whose truck is at the top? 17 A That's Mark Sherrill's truck. 18 That tank was in there pretty good. Now 19 he is going to reposition and scratch on the left side to 20 try to dislodge it further. Basically, it's being held 21 in by three sides right now. Tank is starting to tilt. 22 Starting to come out. "Ten to six. Looks like one of 23 the tanks is about" -- Akido, May 28th. So if it's one 24 day off, it's probably more like the 29th, unless he 25 fixed it. 105 1 Q Does this akido come up at a different 2 time than the other tape? 3 A Yes, it does. 4 Q Why don't you turn it down. You can leave 5 it down. 6 A You want me to play it? 7 Q Either way. 8 A There's not much more. 9 Q Okay. Because Mr. Hall is going to come 10 back a couple of times, I wanted to spend this last 11 twelve minutes asking another question. 12 Mr. Hall, did you seize any audio tapes 13 that day? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Being the day of the search warrant? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did you seize it from Mr. Womack's house? 18 A That's correct. His master bedroom. 19 Q Grand Jury Exhibit No. 7. Photograph. Do 20 you recognize that photograph? 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q And this -- you called it his junk drawer? 23 A Yeah. Just contains kind of junk men just 24 throw in a drawer. 25 Q In his bedroom? 106 1 A In his bedroom. 2 Q Tape recorder? 3 A Yes. Micro cassette recorder that has 4 micro cassette inside of it. 5 Q Okay. Grand Jury Exhibit No. 8. 6 A Mm-hmm. 7 A That's a micro cassette in my hand which I 8 removed from this recorder. And this is the tape that I 9 seized. 10 Q And you seized that tape and that is the 11 tape that you -- that we have marked Grand Jury Exhibit 12 No. 4, correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And you have -- although that's the 15 original, you made a true and accurate duplicate, 16 correct? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q How did you know about this tape? 19 A I was told by Larry White, the City 20 Inspector for the City of Jackson, that Robert Womack had 21 come to their counter; and that, after he had contacted 22 them, he had then -- Robert Womack had then spoken with a 23 clerk there, Sherry Martin. 24 Sherry Martin noticed the light of a tape 25 recorder on in Mr. Womack's pocket and advised Larry 107 1 White that they were being taped. 2 Q That was the morning before we met on 3 September 2nd? 4 A That was the morning of the day September 5 2nd before we met. 6 Q Could you play the tape. 7 It's about ten minutes long; is that 8 correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 MR. IREY: And we will break for lunch, if the 11 foreman thinks that's a good time. 12 THE FOREPERSON: That will be fine. 13 THE WITNESS: He actually turned it on while he 14 was outside. You can hear cars going by. You can hear 15 him walking in. 16 Larry is going back to get the file now. 17 Bob will begin talking to Sherry Martin. 18 Q BY MR. IREY: That's Larry White, correct? 19 A Larry White. 20 At that point, she noticed the tape 21 recorder probably. 22 Bob shut it off at that point, so I think 23 he figured the jig was up on the tape. 24 Q Just another minute and a half. 25 I am not going to ask you what this 108 1 exhibit number is. Have you recently reviewed 1988 2 county permit for same exact address? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So there was a city permit and county 5 permit? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Do you have any information as of today's 8 date if Mr. Womack ever looked in the county files to see 9 if there were any permits from '88? 10 A To my knowledge, he hasn't looked at the 11 county files. 12 MR. IREY: Mr. Foreman, if you could read the 13 admonition to Mr. Hall. Again, he is going to have to 14 come back. We are using him as a filler. We are on. We 15 had seven witnesses scheduled for this morning and we 16 finished part of one. Many of these people will be 17 short. 18 This afternoon, I am pretty sure we will 19 get through seven afternoon witnesses, but the ones that 20 were scheduled for this morning, we are going to have to 21 piece them in where they can go. 22 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. You are admonished not to 23 reveal to any person except as directed by the Court what 24 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 25 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 109 1 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 2 appearance before the Grand Jury. 3 This admonition continues unless and until 4 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 5 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 6 punishable as contempt of court. This does not prevent 7 from you discussing the matter with your attorney if you 8 have an attorney advising you with respect to your 9 appearance before the Grand Jury. 10 I would like to have you sign and date 11 that I read that to you. 12 MR. IREY: Thank you. See you at 1:30. 13 THE FOREPERSON: Excuse me. Real quickly, 14 before you guys leave for recess. I have to read this. 15 The Grand Jurors are admonished that they 16 are not to form or express any opinions about this case 17 or discuss it among themselves until the Grand Jury 18 receives the case for deliberation. 19 In addition, no inspection of evidence 20 should be conducted without the permission of the 21 Foreperson and on the advice of the prosecuting 22 attorney. A violation of this rule could result in a 23 charge of contempt against a Grand Juror who would 24 investigate or view any matters with regard to this case 25 without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 110 1 Thank you. Now are you are dismissed. 2 (Luncheon recess taken at 12:37 p.m.) 3 ---oOo--- 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 ---oOo--- 3 THE FOREPERSON: We have everybody. 4 MR. IREY: The first is, as a special favor to 5 our Grand Jury Foreman -- it probably won't happen very 6 often. He wanted to ask Mr. Hall in writing a question. 7 Although I told everybody that Mr. Hall would be back at 8 least one or more two more times, he would be able to 9 answer questions at that point. 10 THE FOREPERSON: It can wait then. I must be 11 missing that part. You keep reminding us of that. I 12 will keep these notes so we can proceed on. I am sorry. 13 I didn't mean... 14 MR. IREY: It's no big deal at all. It's just, 15 Mr. Hall, thank you for your time. You don't have to be 16 resworn in. 17 Normally, you would just remind them they 18 had been previously sworn in. You still read the 19 admonishment afterwards. Okay. Thank you. 20 Our first witness this afternoon will be 21 Elaine Williams. 22 They would like you to sit up there in 23 the jury box -- in the witness chair. I tried to talk 24 them out of it. That's where we are going. 25 THE FOREPERSON: If I could have you stand and 112 1 raise your right hand. 2 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 3 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 4 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 5 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 6 THE WITNESS: I do. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 8 (TIME NOTED: 1:36 P.M.) 9 ---oOo--- 10 ELAINE WILLIAMS 11 Called as a witness herein by the People, 12 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 13 and testified as follows: 14 EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. IREY: 16 Q Ms. Williams, how do you spell your last 17 name? 18 A W-I-L-L-I-A-MS. 19 Q They get harder. That's the easy 20 question. 21 Who is your employer? 22 A County of Amador. 23 Q For how long have you been employed by the 24 County of Amador? 25 A Since April of 1987. 113 1 Q And what capacity are you employed? 2 A I am the administrative secretary for the 3 land use agency. 4 Q Okay. Prior to working in Amador County, 5 do you have any schooling related to your current 6 position? 7 A I got a degree in secretarial training 8 Modesto Junior College. I graduated in 1974. 9 Q And then you have some type of stenography 10 background also? 11 A I was a legal secretary for some local 12 attorneys from '74 until 1980, and then I worked -- went 13 back to work for them part-time. And in 1983, I was on 14 the Grand Jury and I was Secretary for the Grand Jury. 15 Q For the civil Grand Jury for Amador 16 County? 17 A Yes, mm-hmm. 18 Q For that one-year period, you were the 19 Grand Jury Secretary? 20 A Secretary. 21 Q And in your current position, do you take 22 notes at a variety of meetings? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. And would those include Land Use 25 Committee meetings? 114 1 A Yes. 2 Q Were you present at a Land Use Committee 3 meeting on May 14th, 1998? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did you take the notes that day? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q Okay. I have what's been marked Grand 8 Jury Exhibit No. 10. If you can take a minute and glance 9 over this and determine if these are the minutes that you 10 took and then transcribed. 11 A Yes, they are. 12 Q Okay. That's an eight-page document? 13 A Mm-hmm. 14 Q It's kind of hard the first time. If you 15 could say "yes" or "no" instead of "mm-hmm"? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. Thanks. This Grand Jury -- I think 18 you have an idea of the scope of the Grand Jury. It's 19 mostly concerned with Item 3. 20 Did you take notes regarding Item 3? 21 A Yes, I did. 22 THE SECRETARY: Do you have a copy? 23 MR. IREY: I gave everybody but the Foreman and 24 the Secretary. 25 For the record, I passed out copies of the 115 1 Land Use minutes without the Grand Jury exhibit tag on 2 them. They are each the same nine-page minutes. 3 Eight-page. 4 Q So you took notes on May 14th, correct? 5 A Uh-huh. Yes, I did. 6 Q How do you take those notes? 7 A In shorthand. 8 Q Okay. And you have been doing that for 9 years? 10 A Mm-hmm. Since 1974. 11 Q Okay. And what time of day did this 12 meeting start? 13 A 10:05, I believe. Yes, 10:05 in the 14 morning. 15 Q Is that a standing date for Land Use and 16 Community Development Committee to meet? 17 A They try to have a standard day. And yes, 18 this was the standard day. 19 Q There is two members of the Board of 20 Supervisors present? 21 A Yes. Supervisor Vinson and supervisor 22 Escamilla. 23 Q On this particular committee, there are 24 two Board Members? 25 A Yes. 116 1 Q And that's the whole make-up of the 2 committee? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So there is no outside person or other 5 County employee that is part of that committee? 6 A No. 7 Q So Supervisor Escamilla and Supervisor 8 Vinson make the decisions? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And they run the meeting? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And they were present on May 14th? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Besides those two individuals, yourself, 15 who else was present? 16 A At the whole meeting? Or just at that 17 item? 18 Q Just for Item 3. 19 A Gary Clark, Mike Israel, Robert Fourt, 20 Linda Van Vleck and Robert Womack. 21 Q Of those five names you just mentioned, 22 how many of them actually work in the Land Use 23 Department? 24 A All of them except for Robert Womack. 25 Q Okay. Did you know Mr. Womack from some 117 1 other -- did you know Mr. Womack before that date? 2 A I know who he is. 3 Q Okay. And who spoke first during the part 4 of the agenda that had to do with -- strike that, please. 5 Prior to coming here today, did you 6 review your minutes? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And you make those off of your shorthand 9 notes, correct? 10 A Yes, uh-huh. 11 Q Normal course of business? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Every time that you are present at a Land 14 Use and Community Development Committee meeting, you take 15 notes the same way? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And then you transcribe them close to the 18 time that they occur? 19 A It depends on how much time I have in my 20 day, because I do other clerical duties. But in this 21 instance, I transcribed 'em the very next day. 22 Q Okay. For a specific reason? Or you just 23 had time? 24 A Mmmm... The Committee referred it to the 25 District Attorney's Office. And Linda Van Vleck had to 118 1 get a packet together, so I did 'em so she would have 'em 2 for the packet. 3 Q So Linda Van Vleck requested that you push 4 it along? 5 A Mm-hmm. 6 Q Okay. And you reviewed these and they are 7 accurate and you made this the next day? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. Prior to May 14th, you told us 10 earlier -- not "us" being the Grand Jury, but 11 Investigator Ron Hall and myself -- that you had noticed 12 that there was going to be work at 505 Sutter; is that 13 correct? 14 A I assumed that because an excavator was 15 unloaded at the site. 16 Q On what day? 17 A Friday, May 1st. 18 Q At what time of day? 19 A Between 1:00 and 2:00. 20 Q Okay. And you know that because? 21 A Because it was a minimum day for the kids 22 at school. My daughter got off school. We went to 23 Mother Lode Market, got lunch, and went over to the park 24 and sat there and ate it and watched them unload the 25 excavator. 119 1 Q You said it was peculiar to you. You had 2 thoughts about why was an excavator there. Why was it 3 peculiar to you? 4 A Because I was unaware of any permits being 5 issued to remove the tanks at that site. But I was a 6 part-time employee, and I figured, Well, something 7 happened while I wasn't around and I missed out on it. 8 Q So you know that permits are required? 9 A Yes. 10 Q But you are not the only one that the 11 permits go through, so you wouldn't know whether or not a 12 permit was issued for that site? 13 A Right. 14 Q You said you additionally drove by that 15 site on more than one occasion that weekend? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q Did you notice any activity? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What type of activity? 20 A The service station disappeared. And the 21 tanks were obviously removed because there was a pit 22 there. 23 Q So you noticed a pit? 24 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q Do you remember whether or not there was 120 1 water in it? Or do you remember any of the specifics? 2 A I couldn't tell just driving by. 3 Q Did you notice who were any of the people 4 who were working? 5 A I saw Mark Sherrill's dump truck there on 6 one occasion. I made the assumption that it was Mr. 7 Wolin's excavator, just because of who around here has an 8 excavator. But as far as any other individuals, no. 9 Q Okay. Between May 4th -- oh, that was 10 the weekend of May 1st, 2nd and 3rd. May 4th was a 11 Monday. 12 Did you have any contact with Mr. Mason or 13 Mr. Womack on Monday, May 4th? 14 A I just saw Mr. Womack at the counter when 15 I arrived at work that morning. 16 Q For public record requests or to review 17 files at land use agency, who actually gets that 18 paperwork or that request? I will rephrase the question. 19 If someone wanted to look at an 20 underground storage tank file, do the support staff give 21 them that file? Or does Mr. Fourt come out and give them 22 the file? What's the standard? 23 A It would vary. I would assume that they 24 would either come to the counter or call. And if they 25 did call, the phone call would come in at the front 121 1 counter, and then it would be up to that clerical person 2 to pass it on. Or actually, if they have time, they can 3 actually pull the file and give it to 'em. But it varied 4 who would actually handle it. 5 Q Are you there full time now? 6 A I am there six hours a day now. 7 Q Okay. Between May 4th and today's date, 8 has anybody requested a copy of this underground storage 9 tank to be reviewed to your knowledge? 10 A Not from me. And not to my knowledge. 11 Q Okay. I have no further questions of -- I 12 will do that a lot. I do have a question. 13 Besides the May 1st through May 4th and 14 the May 14th, do you have any particular information one 15 way or the other on the site, whether someone told you in 16 passing who moved the tank or whether someone told you in 17 passing where the soil went. Do you have any information 18 along those lines that might help the Members of the 19 Grand Jury in making their decision? 20 A Mmmm... I can't say that I have had 21 specific information, but you hear things in the 22 community, just... 23 Q And they can't hear hearsay. The one 24 thing about Grand Jury proceedings, it's different than a 25 a normal -- almost all hearsay can't come in. 122 1 So if either Mr. Mason, Mr. Sherrill, Mr. 2 Womack or Mr. Wolin hasn't specifically told you 3 anything? 4 A No. 5 MR. IREY: Okay. Then I have no further 6 questions of this witness. I would be happy to ask this 7 witness any questions of the Members of the Grand Jury. 8 THE FOREPERSON: And we pass those questions to 9 you via the -- 10 MR. IREY: Sure. 11 THE FOREPERSON: If we have a second one, can we 12 write it on the same one? 13 MR. IREY: The procedure for that will be, you 14 write them, I read them. I make a decision whether or 15 not they are an appropriate question. If they are really 16 close to appropriate, I might rephrase it and ask the 17 Grand Jury person if that's good enough. I will err on 18 the side of probably asking the question, but I am still 19 cautious. 20 For instance, I can't ask Ms. Williams, 21 What's your opinion of Mr. Womack? I won't ask those 22 types of questions. That calls for a legal conclusion. 23 I can't ask that. 24 Q What is the function of the Land Use and 25 Community Development Committee? 123 1 A Mmmm... Matters pertaining to land use 2 are brought before them. It's kind of a committee that 3 hears certain items that maybe can be resolved before 4 actually goes to the full Board of Supervisors. 5 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions. 6 Mr. Foreman, the admonishment. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. Okay. 8 You are admonished not to reveal to any 9 person except as directed by the Court what questions 10 you were asked or what responses were given or any other 11 matters concerning the nature or subject of the Grand 12 Jury's investigation that you learned during your 13 appearance before the Grand Jury. This admonition 14 continues unless and until such time as the transcript of 15 this Grand Jury proceeding is made public. 16 Violation of this admonition is punishable 17 as contempt of Court. This does not prevent you from 18 discussing the matter with your attorney if you have an 19 attorney advising you with respect to your appearance 20 before the Grand Jury. 21 If you could, I need you to sign and date 22 this, that you were given that. 23 MR. IREY: They are having you sit in the witness 24 stand, Supervisor. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. 124 1 MR. IREY: Our next witness is Supervisor Rich 2 Escamilla. 3 THE FOREPERSON: Sir, if I can have you remain 4 standing. Raise your right hand. 5 Do you solemnly swear that the evidence 6 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 7 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 8 nothing you but the truth, so help you God. 9 THE WITNESS: So help me God. 10 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 11 (TIME NOTED: 1:52 P.M.) 12 ---oOo--- 13 RICHARD ESCAMILLA 14 Called as a witness herein by the People, 15 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 16 and testified as follows: 17 18 EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. IREY: 20 Q I would like to thank you, Supervisor 21 Escamilla, for taking time out of your busy schedule to 22 be here. 23 As you are well aware, we are in the 24 middle of this process of a Grand Jury investigation into 25 505 Sutter Street and subsequent acts by a variety of 125 1 individuals. 2 Are you aware of the investigation? 3 A Yes. 4 Q First question -- the first questions I 5 would like to ask are specifically regarding the Land Use 6 and Community Development Committee meeting on May 14th. 7 I left at front a document marked Grand 8 Jury Exhibit No. 10. Do you have that in front of you? 9 A Mm-hmm. 10 Q And I apologize for having to do this for 11 the record. But, if possible, if you can answer "yes" or 12 "no" for the court reporter. 13 A Oh, yes. 14 Q Thanks. 15 A You are talking about this minutes that 16 you gave me? 17 Q Correct. The minutes that I gave you out 18 front. 19 A On Item 3? 20 Q Yes, your Honor -- yes, Supervisor. I 21 have to be real careful here. 22 Really, I am talking specifically about 23 the one marked Grand Jury Exhibit 10. Right before you 24 came in, I did give you a copy to review to hopefully 25 help speed this along for you. But the document I will 126 1 be asking you questions about is the one that actually 2 has the Grand Jury exhibit tag attached to it. 3 Were you present at the May 14th Land Use 4 and Community Development Committee meeting? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And Item 3 that day was regarding 7 underground storage tank issue; is that correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And have you reviewed these minutes? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And to the best of your recollection at 12 this time, are they accurate? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. I am going to go paragraph by 15 paragraph, because it's important to the Members of the 16 Grand Jury to understand the scenario that this hearing 17 took place. 18 Prior to May 14th, this underground 19 storage tank issue had come to your attention; is that 20 correct? 21 A Mm-hmm, yes. 22 Q And if you recall, I don't have it with 23 me -- strike that question. 24 Did Robert Womack call you at home on May 25 4th, if you remember? 127 1 A No. 2 Q Did he leave a message on your message 3 machine, if you remember? 4 A No. 5 Q Sometime on May 4th, which would have been Monday 6 after the underground storage tank came out of the 7 ground, did you receive contact by any of the people that 8 work for you or Mr. Mason or Womack? 9 A On May 4th? 10 Q If you recall. 11 A No, I don't recall. 12 Q When was -- 13 A I don't remember what day. 14 Q Okay. But just the subject matter and the 15 person. 16 A I was approached coming to work, but I 17 don't know what day that was. 18 Q Okay. And who -- 19 A By Mr. Womack. 20 Q Did you know Mr. Womack from other issues? 21 A Say that again. 22 Q Had you met Mr. Womack before? 23 A Oh, yeah, yes. 24 Q Okay. So you were approached on your way 25 to work? 128 1 A Walking to the office. 2 Q The office being? 3 A Begovich Building, administration. 4 Q Mr. Womack came up to you and started a 5 conversation? 6 A Yes. 7 Q You smile. 8 What actually happened? 9 A Oh, more or less, first I just say, How 10 you doing, Bob? I know him as Bob. 11 And he just came up to me and told me -- 12 he said I lost a lot of votes. I kind of looked back. 13 And we had a few words. I can't remember what it was. 14 He was pretty upset. 15 And we were out there maybe 20 minutes. 16 And I just told him, I said, You say what you have to say 17 and I will say what I have to say. And I just walked 18 away. 19 Q You had a twenty-minute conversation. Was 20 it mostly about the underground storage tanks? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Was it heated on both parts? Or just on 23 Mr. Womack's side? 24 A It was his side. 25 Q Did Mr. Womack use vulgarities toward you? 129 1 A No. 2 Q Did he use vulgarities toward any of your 3 staff? 4 A No. 5 Q Did he pick on any members of your staff 6 being people who work for the land use agency? 7 A I don't recall that. 8 Q Okay. But he did bring to your attention 9 that he thought you lost some votes? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did he explain why he thought you lost 12 some votes? 13 A For this investigation which we asked the 14 District Attorney to take over. 15 Q So you think it was after the referral to 16 the District Attorney's Office was this meeting with Mr. 17 Womack? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Was Mr. Womack present at the Land Use and 20 Community Development Committee meeting on May 14th? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Did he speak during that meeting? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Prior to his speaking, did Mike Israel 25 speak from the County Environmental Health Department? 130 1 A Yes. 2 Q And again, if you need to look at the 3 minutes and if that's how you are remembering it -- is 4 most of what you remember today based on your reviewing 5 the minutes? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Couple, three months ago, Ron Hall asked 8 you to review the minutes, correct? If you remember? 9 A No, I don't remember. 10 Q Ron Hall and I came by and chatted with 11 you three, four, five months ago, correct? 12 A Yeah, mm-hmm, yes. 13 Q About the underground storage tank issue? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And we asked you at that time if what was 16 in the information that was in the Land Use Committee 17 meeting minutes were accurate. Do you remember that? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And at that time, do you remember what you 20 told us? 21 A Pretty much so, yes. 22 Q Pretty much accurate? 23 A Yes. 24 Q So Mr. Israel did his presentation on why 25 we have underground storage tank rules? 131 1 A Yes. 2 Q And Mr. Fourt did his presentation on the 3 specifics? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did you know Mr. Fourt before that day? 6 A I would have to say, no, I didn't. 7 Q Did you know Mike Israel though? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Because he is Director of Environmental 10 Health, and that's a title. And everybody answers to 11 Gary Clark, correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q But issues regarding underground tanks and 14 public health and welfare issues and, apparently, Indian 15 reservations -- that's Mike Israel? 16 A Yes. 17 Q They are all underneath Gary Clark's 18 umbrella? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And they all are under your umbrella? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Bob Fourt went through and explained how 23 Dave Mason submitted an after the fact application. Do 24 you remember that? 25 A I remember -- I remember words being said, 132 1 yes. 2 Q Okay. Do you remember them talking about 3 Wolin and Sons? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you remember them talking about who was 6 actually operating the excavator? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And who do you remember was operating the 9 excavator? 10 A The son. 11 Q Son of Mr. Wolin? 12 A Not Mr. Wolin, no. 13 Q Mr. Wolin's son? 14 A Mr. Wolin's son. 15 Q Did Mr. Fourt at that time tell you the 16 removal was done without permits? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did he tell you that there was potential 19 for explosion? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did he tell you there was an open 22 hazardous pit next to the school, if you recall? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did he talk about that there were problems 25 at that site back in 1991, if you recall? 133 1 A Something about being a new tank brought 2 in about that time, yes. 3 Q Contamination before that? That type of 4 information or not? 5 A I don't recall that. 6 Q Okay. After Mr. Fourt, Mr. Israel spoke 7 again. 8 And did Mr. Israel let the committee know 9 that he had contacted Keith Tallia? Do you remember that 10 at all? 11 A No, I don't. 12 Q Again, you go to a lot of meetings, 13 correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q So that's why you have someone there 16 taking notes, correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do the Land Use Committee members review 19 these notes the month after the hearing? Is that a 20 standard? Because I notice on this one, it talks about 21 approval of the minutes, the April 16th meeting, were 22 approved. 23 A Yes. 24 Q So they are circulated to the members of 25 the committee and the members of the committee basically 134 1 verify -- 2 A They are circulated to us about a week 3 prior to the -- to the meetings. 4 Q Okay. And then Robert Womack spoke. Do 5 you remember that? 6 A Mm-hmm, yes. 7 Q Mr. Mason wasn't there, correct? If you 8 recall? 9 A He -- he was there one of the meetings. 10 One of the meetings -- I can't recall which one that he 11 was there. 12 Q You had a series of meetings about this 13 underground storage tank, correct? 14 A I don't remember which one he was there. 15 Then he was gone at one of the meetings. 16 Q The Land Use Committee was the official 17 meeting? 18 A Right. 19 Q Earlier the week before, there were some 20 meetings, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And one of those meetings was yourself and 23 Mr. Bamert and Ms. Sherrill? 24 A That wasn't a meeting. That was just, we 25 got together to take a look at the situation. 135 1 Q Okay. You have another constituent who is 2 very unhappy about that; is that correct? About this 3 underground storage tank pull. Mr. Campbell? 4 A Oh, yes. 5 Q Could you briefly describe Mr. Campbell's 6 concerns to -- as you understand them to the Grand Jury. 7 A Mr. Campbell and I had a conversation. 8 And he was more or less waiting to see what happens 9 here. 10 Q But Mr. Campbell had pulled his tanks 11 legally? 12 A Pardon me? 13 Q Did Mr. Campbell pull his tanks already? 14 A Oh, yes, he had his tank removed quite a 15 while ago. 16 Q Pulled them legally, got permits? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Cleaned up the soil, put in new tanks? 19 A Cost him a lot of money, yes. 20 Q Did he at any time say, I hope you guys do 21 something about this? 22 A Yes. 23 Q You don't have a vendetta against Mr. 24 Womack, do you? 25 A Nope, sure don't. 136 1 Q But you have heard Mr. Womack has told 2 many members of the county that you do. Is that true? 3 A I heard what? 4 Q Have you heard that Mr. Womack has told 5 people of the County? 6 A Oh, yes, yes. 7 Q And you have read it in the newspaper? 8 A To me, it really didn't come out as a 9 supervisor that way, but I have heard talk that he has 10 been badmouthing me. But that's the way it goes. 11 Q Part of the job? 12 A Part of the job. 13 Q If you had to do it again, would you do it 14 the same way? 15 A Yeah. 16 Q After the explosive hazards were explained 17 and the proximity to the school issues, Mr. Womack told 18 the members of the committee, which was basically you and 19 Supervisor Vinson, everything he did and why he thought 20 he was in compliance; is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And he said he was interested in the lot 23 for his son's business? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And that it was -- escrow was opened with 137 1 Western Land? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And George Ryan was his attorney? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And that George Ryan prepared a contract 6 for him and Mason? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And Mason was supposed to take care of the 9 contamination issues? Problems with the EPA? 10 A That -- I don't recall that. 11 Q Mr. Womack said he was going to leave the 12 tanks in the ground until he was told double-walled could 13 not be filled? 14 A I don't remember hearing that either. 15 Q He then asked somebody at Environmental 16 Health about checking the soil. 17 A I think that was brought up. 18 Q And he said that Dave Mason did not want 19 to do that? 20 A And that -- I didn't hear that statement. 21 Q Okay. Do you know Dave Mason? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Have you spoken with Dave Mason about this 24 case? 25 A Not one time. 138 1 Q When I say Dave Mason, we are talking 2 about Mr. Mason who is in his late 50s or early 60s. 3 A Yes. I know who he is. 4 Q Not Dave Mason -- 5 A Not junior. 6 Q Or the IV or whoever. 7 A Yeah. 8 Q Do you remember Mr. Womack saying he 9 didn't know the current location of the tank? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Do you remember hearing the story 12 sometime -- maybe not at this hearing, but previously -- 13 that the tank had gone to Owens Illinois? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And do you remember hearing from Owens 16 Illinois through either Supervisor Bamert or Robert Fourt 17 that the tank was never there? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And then do you remember hearing the new 20 or second version of Mr. Womack's where the tank went 21 story, about how some guy just -- 22 A I heard something about, let's see. What 23 was it? No. That was quite a bit of time went by when I 24 heard it might have been in Lodi. But I just heard him 25 saying, after not being in the Owens Illinois, that he 139 1 doesn't know where they were. 2 Q Do you remember him saying some guy drove 3 by and he loaded it on his truck? 4 A Asked somebody at Mel's drive-in. 5 Q And that's who took the tank? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q Would it surprise you if Mr. Womack is the 8 person that drove the tank away? 9 A Would it surprise me? 10 Q Would it surprise you? 11 A No, it wouldn't surprise me. 12 Q Would it surprise you if it was on a Mark 13 Sherrill owned truck? 14 A It would make me mad, but I wouldn't be -- 15 I -- I guess you could say I wouldn't be surprised. 16 Q You appointed Mark Sherrill's wife as your 17 Planning Commissioner, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q The Board of Supervisors makes that 20 appointment? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And that's Connie Sherrill? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Mark Sherrill -- phrase this as a 25 question. 140 1 Would you believe that it's possible that 2 Mark Sherrill may not have told his wife that it was Mark 3 Sherrill's truck that hauled the tank? 4 A Yeah, I -- I -- yeah, yes. 5 Q Have you ever asked Mark Sherrill if he 6 hauled the tank? 7 A Nope. 8 Q Have you ever asked Connie Sherrill if 9 Mark hauled the tank? 10 A I did ask her. 11 Q And her response? 12 A She said no. 13 Q Hypothetically, if Mark Sherrill was 14 asked, did he haul the tank; and Robert Womack is the one 15 that actually drove the tank, then maybe Mark Sherrill 16 wasn't lying to his wife. 17 A Actually, that's probably one of the 18 reasons I really didn't want to know that question. So I 19 didn't ask. 20 Q Did you know that the contaminated soil 21 went to Mark's property? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you know that some of the contaminated 24 soil went to -- some people call it the old mill; some 25 people call it Georgia Pacific? 141 1 A Oh, no, I didn't know that. 2 Q Did you know that all of the stuff, all of 3 the waste material after noon on Saturday went to Mark 4 Sherrill's house -- not his house, his property on 88 and 5 the old mill site, Georgia Pacific? 6 A No, I didn't. 7 Q Have you been told by others that 8 everything went to the dump? 9 A That's what -- that's what I heard was, it 10 went to the dump. 11 Q That's what Womack told the Board of 12 Supervisors? 13 A Yes. That's what Womack said, yes. 14 Q Did Mr. Womack at this hearing talk about 15 someone videotaped the demolition, if you recall? 16 A I didn't hear it from him, but I heard 17 somebody was videotaping it. I didn't hear it from Mr. 18 Womack. 19 Q Did Mr. Womack on that date when he was 20 addressing the Land Use Committee tell you that his wife 21 was the one videotaping? 22 A Oh, that's right. Yes. 23 Q He told you that? 24 A I remember at the meeting he said that, My 25 wife videotaped, that's right, yes. 142 1 Q Did he tell you that City police assisted 2 in traffic control? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And Carstensen was going to design the 5 building? 6 A No, I didn't know that. 7 Q You don't recall? 8 A I know John Carlson, yes. 9 Q Carstensen? 10 A Carstensen. 11 Q But you don't recall talking about the 12 building at that meeting? 13 A I -- I remember him saying he was going to 14 put an office; but I didn't know who was going to design 15 the building, no. 16 Q Elaine Williams was taking notes for you 17 has taken notes for you for quite some time? 18 A Yes. 19 Q You have been a Member of the Board for 20 how long? 21 A Two years. 22 Q She has been the one that takes these 23 meeting minutes? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Do they seem accurate to you? 143 1 A Very. 2 Q Gary Clark, as the supervisor to Mr. 3 Israel -- he addressed you at the end and he talked about 4 the possible penalties and the fact the tank was missing. 5 Do you recall that? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Do you recall that being one of the big 8 issues, to find the tank? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And to find out where the piping and the 11 soil went, if you recall? 12 A Very little said at the piping and soil, 13 because I thought they were already at the -- at the 14 landfill. So more or less, the issue was the tank, 15 itself. 16 Q There is a note at the end of this that 17 the Committee wanted it noted that Mr. Womack is 18 cooperating in finding the tank. 19 If you recall, what was that note about? 20 A Well, at our conversation, he was saying 21 that he will try and find the tank and that he -- from 22 what he said, he doesn't know who took it off or who took 23 off with it. Plus he was talking about maybe putting up 24 a reward or something. 25 Q I show you what's been marked Grand Jury 144 1 Exhibit No. 5. 2 Do you know the business called KRL 3 Partnership, Supervisor? 4 A No. I don't. 5 Q Okay. And you don't recognize Mr. 6 Womack's signature? 7 A No. 8 Q The bottom left corner of Grand Jury 9 Exhibit No. 5, can you read the writing? 10 A Robert for tank reward. 11 Q $500? 12 A $500. 13 Q September 7th? 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q Would it surprise you if Mr. Womack paid 16 himself the reward for finding the tank? 17 A When I heard about it, I was surprised, 18 yes. But knowing him, no, it doesn't surprise me. 19 Q How long have you known him? 20 A Five, six years. 21 Q Is he a campaign contributor? 22 A Pardon me? 23 Q Was he a campaign contributor, if you 24 remember? 25 A No. 145 1 Q But he actually came up after you voted to 2 refer the case to the District Attorney and made some 3 statement about losing votes? 4 A Yes. 5 MR. IREY: If any members of the Grand Jury have 6 any questions for Supervisor Escamilla, if they put them 7 in writing -- I didn't explain the process to him; this 8 will be a surprise to him -- I will be happy to ask them 9 of the supervisor. I haven't mentioned this earlier. 10 Their schedules are extraordinarily busy. 11 Two or three days from now, if you think of something, 12 maybe not with the supervisor, but the investigator or 13 somebody who works for Environmental Health. 14 GRAND JUROR: At this time, I don't want to ask 15 any questions, but I would like for him to come back 16 later if something develops. 17 MR. IREY: The way that would go is, you let the 18 Foreperson know, all of you let me know, and I will check 19 with the Supervisor and his staff and try to schedule 20 those types of things. 21 Normally, it's supposed to be rebuttal. 22 For instance, let's say another witness gets up and says 23 Supervisor Escamilla -- 24 GRAND JUROR: I understand that. 25 MR. IREY: If there is something about the topics 146 1 he has covered today, we would try to ask them now. If 2 it's something that comes up based on other people's 3 testimony -- 4 GRAND JUROR: It will be rebuttal. 5 MR. IREY: Okay. Does that answer your 6 question? 7 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Yes. 8 MR. IREY: I am sure the Supervisor probably 9 doesn't want to come back too many times, but we do 10 appreciate his time today. 11 Is there any question? 12 THE FOREPERSON: I don't have any. 13 MR. IREY: The Foreman has an admonition 14 regarding your testimony today, Supervisor. 15 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 16 to any person except as directed by the Court what 17 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 18 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 19 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 20 appearance before the Grand Jury. 21 This admonition continues unless during -- 22 excuse me. This admonition continues unless and until 23 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 24 is made public. 25 Violation of this admonition is punishable 147 1 as contempt of court. This does not prevent you from 2 discussing the matter with your attorney if you have an 3 attorney advising you with respect to your appearance 4 before the Grand Jury. 5 If I could get you to sign and date that I 6 read that to you, I would appreciate that. 7 Thank you very much. 8 MR. IREY: Rick Hilderman will be our next 9 witness. 10 MR. IREY: The Grand Jury Foreman will swear you 11 in. 12 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Hilderman, if you will 13 remain standing and raise your right hand, please. 14 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 15 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 16 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 17 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 20 (TIME NOTED: 2:16 P.M.) 21 ---oOo--- 22 RICK HILDERMAN 23 Called as a witness herein by the People, 24 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 25 and testified as follows: 148 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. IREY: 3 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Hilderman. We didn't 4 have a chance to go over, Members of the Grand Jury are 5 looking into allegations related to an underground 6 storage tank at 505 Sutter Street. 7 Are you familiar with that location? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Were you contacted by Mr. Womack -- 10 withdraw the question. 11 Whom is your employer? 12 A Cal-Trans. 13 Q How long have you worked for Cal-Trans? 14 A Thirty-six years. 15 Q And at this time, what does your 16 jurisdiction cover? 17 A I am the regional permit engineer for 18 Alpine, Amador and Calaveras County. 19 Q And for how many years have you been in 20 that capacity? 21 A Since 1982. Fifteen years, plus or minus. 22 Q Were you contacted by Mr. Womack regarding 23 505 Sutter Street? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Do you recall that? 149 1 A Yes. 2 Q And do you recall the scope of your 3 conversation? 4 A Yes. I am not sure of the day, but it was 5 either Thursday or Friday when he called. 6 Q And what did you talk about? 7 A He asked if he could get a permit for 8 traffic control to remove the tanks on that property. 9 Q So he specifically asked you if he could 10 get a permit to remove -- a traffic control permit? 11 A Just traffic control. I have nothing to 12 do with the tanks. He told me what he was going to do. 13 And they said that they would have to have the trucks on 14 the highway while they were loading. 15 And I -- I asked him, I said, There is no 16 way you can avoid that? 17 And he said no. 18 Q So you specifically remember him talking 19 about demoing the building and the tanks? 20 A I think the wording was level the property 21 and remove the tanks, yes. 22 Q Okay. Did you talk to him about any 23 permit requirements other than the traffic control? 24 A No. 25 Q Did he mention that he had other permits? 150 1 A No. 2 Q Your issue was just traffic control on 3 88/49? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And you had a conversation about it and 6 you told him no? 7 A The conversation went that I can't do 8 anything because he told me he wanted to do this 9 Saturday. And I told him there is no way that Cal-Trans 10 could issue him a permit for traffic control in that 11 short a time. I would have to have the applications 12 filled out and the traffic plan, how to do this and all 13 of that. 14 And that's where the conversation ended 15 when I told him that I couldn't get a permit from 16 Cal-Trans for traffic control for that -- in that short 17 of notice. 18 Q So he called at the last minute and wanted 19 a permit? 20 A Yes. 21 Q You told him he couldn't have one on that 22 short a period of time? 23 A Yes. I told him it couldn't be issued. 24 Q Did he sound upset? Or just said yes? Or 25 did he say, I will have to do something else? Or what 151 1 did he say? 2 A He was upset and said, Thank you. And 3 that was it. I didn't get into what he was going to do 4 or didn't question. I just told him that we couldn't get 5 a permit with that short of notice. 6 Q So at that point in time, you didn't know 7 whether or not he was going to go forward? 8 A No. 9 Q Later you learned that he went forward? 10 A I believe I called Gary Urzik -- and this 11 is the city engineer or city building inspector -- and 12 asked him about it or what was going on or what was the 13 cause of this, just to verify what he was going to do. 14 And Gary wasn't in. And I didn't hear 15 from him to find out. 16 The next week, when I went by there, I 17 noticed that the work -- the thing had been removed and 18 had been cleared. And I assumed that it was done on 19 Saturday. 20 Q Okay. The tractor can't be on the Highway 21 at all without a permit? 22 A No. You can't work in the State 23 right-of-way without a permit for traffic control or any 24 of that. Now, if he does that, it's under the Highway 25 Patrol or the City police jurisdiction. I believe in the 152 1 city, it would be the City police. 2 Q As a violation of the Vehicle Code? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So the City right-of-way being nine feet 5 basically back from the road? Not the City right-of-way; 6 Cal-Trans right-of-way. 7 A I am not definite on where the 8 right-of-way is. I think it's the back of the sidewalk 9 there, approximately eight to nine feet from the traveled 10 way or whatever it is. I have never measured it. 11 Q So you told him he couldn't get a permit 12 in that short a period of time? 13 A Yes. 14 Q You didn't talk to him about whether or 15 not he could take the tanks out? 16 A No. 17 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 18 Hilderman. 19 If any of the Members of the Grand Jury 20 have any questions, I would be happy to ask Mr. 21 Hilderman. 22 Told you it would be short. 23 THE FOREPERSON: Before you leave, you are 24 admonished not to reveal to any person except as directed 25 by the Court what questions were asked or what responses 153 1 were given or any other matters concerning the nature or 2 subject of the Grand Jury's investigation that you 3 learned during your appearance before the Grand Jury. 4 This admonition continues unless and until 5 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 6 is made public. 7 Violation of this admonition is punishable 8 as contempt of court. This does not prevent you from 9 discussing the matter with your attorney if you have an 10 attorney advising you with respect to your appearance 11 before the Grand Jury. 12 I need a signature and date that I read 13 that to you. 14 Thank you very much. 15 MR. IREY: Mike Israel. 16 THE FOREPERSON: If you could remain standing and 17 raise your right hand, please. 18 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 19 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 20 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 21 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 22 THE WITNESS: I do. 23 //// 24 // 25 (TIME NOTED 2:23 P.M.) 154 1 ---oOo--- 2 MIKE ISRAEL 3 Called as a witness herein by the People, 4 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 5 and testified as follows: 6 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. IREY: 9 Q Thank you, Mr. Israel, for your patience 10 today. 11 For the Members of the Grand Jury, could 12 you basically give us a minute or so on your background 13 prior to coming to Amador County. 14 A My name is Mike Israel. I am a graduate 15 of University of California at Davis. I hold a 16 Bachelor's degree in biological sciences. 17 I started in the environmental health 18 field with Amador County. I was hired in May of 1989, 19 worked my way up through the ranks. I was appointed as 20 Deputy Director in charge of the Environmental Health 21 Department approximately five years ago. 22 Q So you have been Deputy Director, which is 23 essentially the top of Environmental Health Department, 24 for five years? 25 A Yes. 155 1 Q And you are a Registered Environmental 2 Health Specialist? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q Do you oversee the underground storage 5 tank program? 6 A Not directly. I oversee Bob Fourt, who 7 directly oversees that program. 8 Q As Director of Environmental Health, you 9 have a multiplicity of hats you have to wear, correct? 10 A Correct. We have approximately twelve 11 programs in our department. 12 Q Could you go over the twelve programs so 13 that the Grand Jury has a better taste of why you have to 14 have people below you doing things that they do, I guess. 15 A Certainly. We have -- in addition to 16 underground tank program, we have other programs which 17 have recently been brought together under certified 18 unified program agency concept, CUPA. Hazardous 19 materials business plans, emergency response -- I said 20 emergency response already. Spill prevention containment 21 and control for above ground storage tanks. Article 80 22 of the Uniform Fire Code for the fire prevention for 23 sites which store flammable materials away from hazardous 24 materials and things, the other programs. 25 MR. IREY: I am sorry. Is he going too quickly? 156 1 That's my problem. I knew you were doing 2 it to her. 3 THE WITNESS: In addition to the hazardous 4 materials type programs, we also have -- we regulate food 5 facilities, which means restaurants, grocery stores, mini 6 markets, et cetera. We regulate public swimming pools. 7 We regulate small community water systems. We issue 8 permits for septic systems for development of individual 9 properties. We issue permits for water wells for 10 individual use. We are involved in land use decisions 11 such as subdivisions, parcel maps, use permits, that kind 12 of thing. 13 We investigate housing and institutions 14 complaints. We do a complaint based vector control 15 program. 16 That's about all that comes to mind right 17 now. 18 Q All of those things are under your 19 direction as Deputy Director of Environmental Health 20 Department? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And your immediate supervisor is Gary 23 Clark? 24 A Yes. He is in charge of the land use 25 agency. 157 1 Q And Bob Fourt does the underground storage 2 tank program? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q And someone else in your agency does 5 hazardous material management plan, Chapter 6.95? 6 A Yes, 6.95. 7 Q Tim Hall? 8 A Tim Hall does those programs, yes. 9 Q Prior to Bob Fourt in his position, was it 10 someone else that did underground storage tanks? 11 A Prior to Bob Fourt, Tim Hall did 12 underground storage tanks interim. We lost an inspector 13 quite a while before Bob started doing underground 14 storage tanks. 15 Q Steve Buckley? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Before April of 1998, were you familiar 18 with the 505 site off Sutter? 19 A Vaguely. I knew there had been a station 20 there. 21 Q And contamination in the past? Or did you 22 know that? 23 A I may have. Don't remember if I knew for 24 a fact. 25 Q That had never been one of the programs 158 1 that you specifically did day in, day out, correct? 2 A No. I have never directly done 3 underground tanks. 4 Q So the inspectors are Bob Fourt, Steve 5 Buckley, Tim Hall? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And the last X years, it's been Bob Fourt? 8 A Last year and a half, close to two years 9 now. 10 Q Okay. In April of 1998, did you have any 11 conversations with Robert Womack? 12 A Yes. Mr. Womack was at the front counter 13 in the morning. He and I spoke briefly. He indicated 14 that he was interested in purchasing this property and 15 wanted to know about the most cost-effective way of 16 closing out the storage tank, the underground tank that 17 was there. And he had asked me about, is it possible to 18 close it in place? 19 And I had indicated that sometimes it is. 20 Depends on whether or not there have been releases. In 21 general, the way that one goes about closing a tank in 22 place is, they hire a consultant. They file a work plan 23 with our office. They would need to do -- at a minimum, 24 get borings underneath the site. 25 If all conditions were favorable, closure 159 1 in place could consist of filling the tank with -- 2 generally, they will use a concrete slurry. 3 I advised him he needed to talk to Bob 4 Fourt who oversees the program, because I wasn't familiar 5 with that site. He needed to get details worked out with 6 Bob. 7 Q You had this conversation with Bob Womack 8 two to three to four weeks before the tank came out of 9 the ground? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You told him to see Bob Fourt? 12 A Yes. 13 Q You told him to hire a qualified 14 consultant to do the work? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Was anybody else present when you told him 17 all of these things? 18 A Probably. There is usually several people 19 at the front counter. I can't remember. 20 Q You came up to the front counter to talk 21 to somebody about tanks? 22 A I don't remember if I met him coming in or 23 if I was called up. 24 Q He had told us in the past that he knew 25 you from some kind of septic tank issues? 160 1 A I dealt with Bob on other issues in the 2 past. 3 Q We may get into those in a minute. 4 Then after you told him to talk to Mr. 5 Fourt in April 1998, when was the next time you thought 6 about that specific site? 7 A On Sunday -- apparently, it was May 3rd -- 8 I was driving through downtown Jackson, drove past the 9 site, saw there was some activity going on there. Didn't 10 see that there was a pit or, you know, a tank sitting out 11 or anything like that. 12 I was kind of curious if they were doing 13 anything with the tank. 14 Q Okay. And then on Monday, May 4th, did 15 the tank come up again? 16 A Yeah. Monday, May 4th, Mr. Womack came to 17 the front counter, said, I pulled the tank. What do I 18 need to do? 19 Q You were present when he came in? 20 A I think Bob Fourt was talking to him 21 first. Then I came up and joined in the conversation. 22 Q When you joined in the conversation, did 23 you remind him of previous conversation? 24 A Oh, yes. 25 Q Did you remind hem him that you had had a 161 1 conversation about this? 2 A Well, yeah. He -- the way he explained it 3 to Mr. Fourt was that he was not aware that anything was 4 required from the County in order to pull a tank. 5 And I reminded him that, a few weeks 6 earlier, we had had a conversation about closing a tank 7 in place and that there were requirements. 8 Q So you heard Mr. Womack tell Mr. Fourt 9 that he had no idea that there were permits required? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q And so -- 12 A Well, take it back. I don't know if I 13 distinctly heard him tell Bob that. But that was the 14 issue that caused me to -- Bob may have told me. 15 Q And then you tell Mr. Womack that you had 16 this conversation with him. 17 A Right. Reminded him of that conversation. 18 Q Did he go, Oh, yeah, I remember now. Or 19 what did he say? 20 A I don't remember his exact response. I 21 think he did remember the conversation, but I don't 22 recall, you know, his -- what his exact response was. 23 Q Then were you present when Mr. Womack was 24 asked about the disposition of all the materials, 25 including the tanks? 162 1 A Yeah, mm-hmm. 2 Q Do you remember what he told you happened 3 with all the materials? 4 A Mmmm... I believe he told us that the 5 pumps were located at what he calls the Bossi Ranch. I 6 think he said piping and maybe some other materials went 7 to the landfill. And I think he told us that the tanks 8 were at Owens Illinois. 9 Q Is Mark Sherrill's property an appropriate 10 place to take that material on 88? 11 A Underground storage tanks and piping and 12 that kind of thing? 13 Q Yes. 14 A No. 15 Q What about Georgia Pacific, the old mill? 16 A Georgia Pacific site? It could be, if 17 they coordinated it with a work plan. But no work plan 18 was ever submitted for taking materials there. 19 Q After he told you tanks went to Owens 20 Illinois, were there meetings on Tuesday with Members of 21 the Board and the Planning Commission, if you recall? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q And Mr. Mason and Mr. Womack? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q Okay. Do you remember what was discussed 163 1 at those meetings? 2 A Mmmm... We were discussing the 3 disposition of the materials. At some point -- I can't 4 remember exactly when -- it was determined that no tank 5 had been delivered to Owens Illinois. 6 Q And then do you remember what Mr. Womack 7 told you happened with the tank? 8 A Well, after it was stated that no tank had 9 been taken to Owens Illinois, Mr. Womack stated that he 10 didn't know where the tank was. 11 Q Okay. And did you explain to Mr. Womack 12 that the law requires the destination and use of the tank 13 to be reported to Environmental Health? 14 A Yes. 15 Q There are obvious safety hazards? 16 A Right. 17 Q Did you talk to him about explosions or 18 any of that type of thing at that time? 19 A Yeah. We described to him the two cases 20 that have occurred within the last year to a year and a 21 half where there were explosions in working on 22 underground storage tanks. At least one resulted in a 23 fatality. 24 Q One in the Rocklin area? 25 A Northern California somewhere, yeah. 164 1 Q One down in Riverside County? 2 A Mm-hmm. 3 Q At that time, did he have any better idea 4 where the tank was? 5 A No. 6 Q Then there was a Land Use meeting? 7 A Yes. 8 Q You were present at that? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you spoke to Supervisors Vinson and 11 Escamilla? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And you went first? Do you remember? 14 A I don't necessarily remember the order in 15 which we spoke. However, I did explain, gave them a 16 rundown of the case to date, the fact that we had been 17 trying to get the disposition of all materials that were 18 moved from Mr. Womack. 19 But the key issues at that point seemed to 20 be the location of the tank, unable to locate the tank. 21 Mr. Womack didn't seem to have any idea where it was. 22 And we had given him, in my opinion, a considerable grace 23 period in locating all these materials. 24 At that point, I think it was determined 25 by the Committee that we would move on to code 165 1 enforcement. 2 Q Okay. Because at that time, you believed 3 the piping went to the dump? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And all of the construction debris went to 6 the dump? 7 A Mm-hmm. 8 Q And you had been told there wasn't an 9 overexcavation of contaminated soil. Do you recall? 10 A My recollection is, the question was 11 raised, What about soil? 12 And the statement was made: Well, there 13 was no soil. 14 Q So it would have had to have been tested? 15 A Yes. Any soil excavated and moved off 16 site would have had to have been tested. 17 Q That's standard operating procedure for 18 removal of underground storage tanks, to test the soil? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Triple rinse the piping? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Manifest to haul hazardous or 23 non-hazardous, depending on the -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q None of that was done? 166 1 A To my knowledge, no. 2 Q You gave him opportunities to provide this 3 information? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did Mr. Mason have much to do this with 6 this? 7 Strike that question. 8 Did Mr. Mason come in and try to take out 9 a retroactive permit? 10 A Yes. He filed some information on an 11 application for tank removal. I don't believe he ever 12 completed it though. 13 Q Said Wolin and Sons were the hazardous 14 waste haulers, if you remember? 15 A I don't recall. 16 Q At any point did Mr. Womack tell you he is 17 the one that drove the tank away from Mason Oil's gas 18 station that night? 19 A No. He told us that the tank was 20 located -- was loaded onto a truck. And it was raining 21 so hard he couldn't see who was driving or couldn't 22 describe the vehicle, wasn't sure if it was on a truck or 23 flatbed trailer. 24 Q Okay. Did he at the Land Use meeting have 25 this story about he was at Mel and Fay's diner that 167 1 morning and asked everybody if they wanted the tank? 2 A Yeah. 3 Q That was after the Owens Illinois story? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q And that's the story he stuck with at the 6 Land Use meeting, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q I am going to read this paragraph on page 9 6 to you. At the end of each sentence, say, Yes, that 10 was said, if that was said. If it's not accurate, please 11 indicate so. 12 "Mr. Womack said he asked at Mel and Fay's 13 diner that day of the removal if anyone wanted a tank." 14 A True. 15 Q "A man said he would take it and Mr. 16 Womack made arrangements for him to come back at 6:00 to 17 pick it up." 18 A I believe so. 19 Q "At 6:00 the man arrived with truck or 20 truck and trailer. Mr. Womack was not sure." 21 A Correct. 22 Q "The tank was loaded and the man drove 23 off." 24 A Yes. 25 Q "Mr. Womack said the tank was empty." 168 1 A Yes. 2 Q "Mr. Womack said Nick Hernandez said dry 3 ice was put in the tank after it was loaded on the 4 truck." 5 A Yes. 6 Q "It was raining so hard it was dark 7 there -- it was dark and there were so many people there 8 Mr. Womack did not notice the type of truck, color, or if 9 there was a name on the door." 10 A Yes. 11 Q "Mr. Womack said he was sure the man would 12 be back to get the pumps, which are being stored at Bossi 13 Ranch, where Mr. Womack also has 500 gallon and 1,000 14 gallon tanks." 15 A Yes. 16 Q "He invited Environmental Health to the 17 property if they wanted to inspect the pumps." 18 A Yes. 19 Q Has Mr. Womack, to your knowledge, ever 20 been in to review the binder of files on 505 Sutter 21 Street? 22 A Not that I am aware of. 23 Q Are you aware there is a binder of 24 information regarding the contamination? 25 A Yeah, there is a fairly good file. 169 1 Q And that was basically from leaky tanks in 2 the late '80s and early '90s, if you recall? 3 A There was -- my recollection of the file 4 is, there was documentation of releases late '80s, early 5 '90s, yes. 6 Q Would there have been Fire Code violations 7 also by moving this tank without dry icing it? 8 A Yes, it's an explosion hazard unless you 9 enter the tank with dry ice, which displaces the oxygen 10 which would allow combustion. 11 Q Underground storage issues? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Hazardous waste issues? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Fire Code issues? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Solid waste issues? 18 A Potentially, yes. 19 Q Contaminated soil issues? 20 A Yes. 21 Q I think it was yesterday, they were 22 finally out there drilling holes. Is that your 23 information? At 505, the first time they have done -- 24 A Ground water monitoring wells? 25 Q Correct. 170 1 A Yes. 2 Q So since May 2nd until November 11th, I 3 guess it was Tuesday, November 10, no work on the site 4 other than the submission of work plans? 5 A Work plans were submitted. Bob Fourt, my 6 office, coordinated in doing sampling to get the pit left 7 open, filled in with water, to get it closed, at least 8 close out the immediate safety hazard issues. 9 Q There was a hole right on 49, correct? 10 A Yeah. You know, a kid could have fallen 11 in and drowned. 12 But anyway, we got it closed so it wasn't 13 an immediate safety risk and referred the case to the 14 Regional Water Quality Control Board. Any time there was 15 a release such as in this case that contaminates ground 16 water, they have jurisdiction over the site. 17 Q And there you knew there was a release 18 because someone had tested the water? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And it had constituents of gasoline in the 21 it? 22 A Yes. 23 Q So the ground water was contaminated? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Unknown about the soil because of the pea 171 1 gravel that had been placed in the hole? 2 A In the second sampling event where they 3 were attempting to sample soil, there was no soil to 4 speak of. There was only bedrock. Couldn't get a 5 sample. They ended up getting second water sample. 6 Assuming that the ground water was 7 contaminated, which it was in both sampling events, and 8 it was in intimate contact with all materials that would 9 have been in the pit, any soil excavated would surely 10 have to be contaminated, as well. 11 Q The water, itself, couldn't go into the 12 storm drain? 13 A Oh, no. 14 Q That would be a water pollution violation? 15 A Correct. 16 Q That flows into Jackson Creek? 17 A Yes. 18 Q If an excavator operator was taking the 19 water out and dumping it onto the soil and street, that 20 could potentially be contaminating potentially the storm 21 water? 22 A Yes. 23 Q You mentioned that you knew Mr. Womack 24 from other issues? 25 A Mm-hmm. 172 1 Q Have you had problems in the past, to your 2 knowledge? 3 A Well, you know, we have had dealings on 4 other projects that he has worked on. I had had a 5 complaint on one other property he had, alleging burial 6 of -- I think it was used petroleum products and auto 7 parts and that kind of thing. 8 Q Mr. Womack was a complainant in that? 9 A It was kind of a complaint, 10 cross-complaint issue. It was real estate transaction 11 that was in process. And parties involved with the 12 seller's side were filing complaints alleging Mr. Womack 13 was the guilty party; and Mr. Womack was 14 cross-complaining, saying that the complainant or 15 complainant's friends were. 16 Q That was an auto body shop issue or what 17 we call shade tree mechanic issue? 18 A Yeah, yeah. 19 Q But at that point, whatever year that was, 20 Mr. Womack knew hazardous material lingo enough to talk 21 about it. Is that your understanding? 22 A Yes. 23 Q He knew about waste oil storage and things 24 like that? 25 A Mm-hmm. 173 1 Q Was it your opinion that he might have 2 been -- I won't ask that. 3 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of Mr. 4 Israel. If any Members of the Grand Jury have any 5 questions, I will be happy to ask them. 6 Mr. Fourt will be testifying and he will 7 go into the specifics, what we was sampled for and what 8 days, things along those lines. 9 I would like to thank you for your time, 10 Mr. Israel. The Grand Jury Foreman has an admonition 11 regarding today's testimony. 12 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 13 to any person except as directed by the Court what 14 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 15 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 16 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 17 appearance before the Grand Jury. This admonition 18 continues unless and until such time as a transcript of 19 this Grand Jury proceeding is made public. 20 Violation of this admonition is punishable 21 as contempt of court. This does not prevent you from 22 discussing the matter with your attorney if you have an 23 attorney advising you with respect to your appearance 24 before the Grand Jury. 25 MR. IREY: Again, I apologize, I do have a couple 174 1 quick questions, Mr. Israel. 2 Q You have been told by the District 3 Attorney's Office that Mr. Womack said that you are lying 4 about this entire conversation; is that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q You had this conversation with Mr. 7 Womack. Is that true? 8 A Yes. 9 Q You told him what he had to do. Is that 10 true? 11 A Yes. 12 MR. IREY: No further questions. 13 THE FOREPERSON: If I could get you to sign and 14 date that I read the admonition to you. Thank you. 15 MR. IREY: Supervisor Vinson. 16 THE SECRETARY: What's his first name? 17 THE FOREPERSON: Raise your right hand, please. 18 Do you solemnly swear that the evidence 19 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 20 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 21 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 22 THE WITNESS: I do. 23 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 24 25 (TIME NOTED: 2:45 P.M.) 175 1 ---oOo--- 2 RICHARD VINSON 3 Called as a witness herein by the People, 4 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 5 and testified as follows: 6 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. IREY: 9 Q For the Court Reporter, could you spell 10 your last name, please. 11 A V-I-N-S-O-N. 12 Q And you are currently a member of the 13 Board of Supervisors in Amador County? 14 A I am. 15 Q And we just met a moment ago. 16 Which is your actual -- 17 A District? 18 Q District, yes. 19 A My district is District 3, which starts at 20 Aqueduct Road just east of Pine Grove and goes to 21 Kirkwood. 22 Q Okay. And thank you for driving down 23 from, I guess, Cables Lake. Where were you? 24 A We were at tri-county meeting at Cables 25 Lake. 176 1 Q Thank you for driving down. 2 This Grand Jury is inquiring into the 3 underground storage tank at 505 Sutter Street. Are you 4 familiar with that issue? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And the bulk of my questioning -- and as 7 you so eloquently told me outside, you only have a little 8 bit to say about this -- was this Land Use Community 9 Development meeting on May 14. 10 Were you present? 11 A I was. 12 Q Is there a chairman and co-chair? Or how 13 do you guys -- 14 A The chairman of that committee, yes. 15 Q And one of the issues, Item 3, was 16 discussing the gas station. 17 A Yes. 18 Q And just before you came in today, you 19 were handed a copy by Investigator Ron Hall to review. 20 Did you have an opportunity to review that? 21 A Yes. I had picked up a copy at the office 22 the other day. And I did go back and read over it, yes. 23 Q And do you know Elaine Williams? 24 A Yes, I do. 25 Q She keeps pretty accurate minutes as far 177 1 as you can tell over the years? 2 A Yes. 3 Q She has been a county employee for years. 4 Have you been on the Land Use and 5 Community Development Committee very long? 6 A Two -- at least two years. 7 Q Okay. How long have you been a Member of 8 the Board? 9 A This month, three years. 10 Q Okay. And at the Land Use Committee 11 meeting, you remember Deputy Director Israel explaining 12 generically what underground storage tank laws and 13 regulations are? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 Q He went into the what the 505 Sutter 16 Street issues might be. You remember that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Then Robert Fourt testified, kind of went 19 specifically through the day-by-day things that happened 20 since May 4th. Do you recall that? 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q And then Mr. Mason wasn't present, 23 correct? 24 A No. 25 Q And did you know Mr. Dave Mason before 178 1 that date? 2 A Do I know him? 3 Q Yes. 4 A Yes. 5 Q And you know Mr. Bob Womack? 6 A I think the only time I ever talked to Mr. 7 Womack was in this meeting. 8 Q Okay. And Mr. Womack, after Mr. Israel 9 and Mr. Fourt were done, provided information to you and 10 Supervisor Escamilla; is that correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q At the meeting, do you remember Mr. Israel 13 letting you and Supervisor Escamilla know that Keith 14 Tallia from Oil Equipment Services had bid the job a 15 month and a half ago for Mr. Mason? 16 A I remember it because in the minutes of 17 the meeting. 18 Do I remember it specifically and who that 19 was? No. 20 Q You know today. 21 A I just know that they were there and it 22 was one of the items on the agenda that day. 23 Q That's what you remember? 24 A Right. 25 Q You reviewed the notes. So anything you 179 1 are testifying to today is because you have reviewed the 2 notes? 3 A Because I reviewed the notes, yes. 4 Q Okay. And Mr. Womack passed on the story 5 about how he didn't know where the tank went? 6 A Right. 7 Q And he told that to you as a Member of the 8 Board of Supervisors, correct? 9 A Yes, he did. 10 Q At a formal committee meeting? 11 A Right. 12 Q Would it surprise you that Mr. Womack is 13 the one that drove the tank away? 14 A Would it surprise me? 15 Q Would you -- 16 A It calls for a conclusion. I don't know. 17 Would it surprise me? 18 Q I can ask a different question. 19 Did you think on that date he had no idea 20 what happened with the tank? 21 A Thing I could say to that is, he expected 22 me to believe he had no idea what happened to the tank. 23 Q So the information he was providing to you 24 he hoped would have swayed your vote? 25 A Yes. 180 1 Q Did he at that time know that you were 2 voting on whether or not to refer the case to the 3 District Attorney's Office? 4 A No. 5 Q That was just kind of at the end of the 6 meeting, a decision was made that some type of 7 enforcement had to take place? 8 A Yes. After all of the information that we 9 reviewed that was presented by Mr. Israel and Mr. Fourt, 10 it seemed to me that it was a matter that this committee 11 certainly could not handle. I simply gave it back to 12 Code Enforcement. There was nothing we could do with it. 13 Q Okay. Prior to the May 14th meeting, were 14 you involved with any of those -- the week before 15 meetings that Supervisor Bamert and Supervisor 16 Escamilla -- 17 A No. 18 Q You weren't part and parcel of any of 19 that? 20 A No. 21 Q You get your agenda and attend your 22 hearing. Is that pretty much what happened? 23 A That was it. 24 Q Dave Mason had not contacted you regarding 25 that issue? 181 1 A No. 2 Q Robert Womack had not contacted you 3 regarding that issue? 4 A No, neither one of them. 5 Q Connie Sherrill had not contacted you? 6 A No. 7 Q So after this hearing, the file went away. 8 Did anybody approach you after you 9 referred the case back to Code Enforcement, as far as Mr. 10 Womack or Mr. Mason? 11 A No, none of them. 12 I think District Attorney's Office had 13 called and wanted something about a deposition. I said 14 the only thing I know is in the minutes of the meeting. 15 Q Could it possibly have been Ron Hall 16 contacting you and asking you to review the minutes of 17 the meeting? 18 A Possibly. I don't remember who it was. 19 Q Because you never gave a deposition in 20 this case? 21 A No. 22 Q And today is the first time we met? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Have you heard that the tank showed up? 25 A I read it in the paper. 182 1 To be very honest with you, I have made a 2 point not to get -- find out any more than I already knew 3 about it. I know right now what's in these minutes and 4 what I read in the paper. 5 Q Okay. So you haven't really had any 6 lengthy chats with anybody regarding these issues? 7 A No, I have not. 8 Q I have to ask one more time to go through 9 the list. 10 So you haven't spoken with Mason or his 11 family, correct? 12 A Pardon? 13 Q You have not spoken with Mason or his 14 family on this? 15 A No. 16 Q Womack or his family? 17 A No. 18 Q Sherrill or his family? 19 A No. 20 Q And Mr. Wolin or his family? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you know Mr. Bill Wolin? 23 A No. 24 MR. IREY: Okay. I have no further questions of 25 Supervisor Vinson. If any Members of the Grand Jury have 183 1 any questions, I would be happy to ask them of the 2 Supervisor. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't want to sound so ignorant 4 about this whole thing, but I really -- I knew Dave Mason 5 quite a number of years ago, but I haven't had any real 6 contact with Dave in several years. 7 And I don't know Mr. Womack at all. And 8 very truthfully, the only contact I have had with him at 9 all was at this meeting, which you have the minutes of. 10 MR. IREY: Again, we thank you for coming back 11 from such a beautiful place just to visit us today. But 12 it was a necessary task, and we appreciate it. 13 The Grand Jury Foreman has an admonition 14 for you. And after that, I guess you are free to go. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 17 to any person except as directed by the Court what 18 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 19 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 20 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 21 appearance before the Grand Jury. 22 This admonition continues unless and until 23 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 24 is made public. 25 Violation of this admonition is punishable 184 1 as contempt of court. This does not prevent you from 2 discussing the matter with your attorney, if you have an 3 attorney advising you with respect to your appearance 4 before the Grand Jury. 5 If I could get you to please sign and date 6 this, that I read that to you. 7 MR. IREY: Mr. Foreman, I realize we have a break 8 at 3:00. Supervisor Bamert is out there. I think he is 9 probably less than 15 minutes. Is it okay if we start? 10 THE FOREPERSON: Mr. Bamert, if you could remain 11 standing. 12 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 13 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 14 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 15 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 16 THE WITNESS: I do. 17 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 18 19 (TIME NOTED: 2:54 P.M.) 20 ---oOo--- 21 TOM BAMERT 22 Called as a witness herein by the People, 23 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 24 and testified as follows: 25 185 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. IREY: 3 Q Thank you, Supervisor Bamert. 4 Could you spell your last name for the 5 record, please. 6 A It's B-A-M-E-R-T. 7 Q Supervisor Bamert, what is your district? 8 Is that the proper --? 9 A District 2. Yes. It's western part of 10 the county. 11 Q Includes Ione? 12 A Includes Ione, Amador City. Comes down 13 the river on the south side of 49. 14 Q You are familiar with the subject matter 15 of this Grand Jury investigation to a point; is that 16 correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q The underground storage tank removal at 19 505 Sutter? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And the names on the subpoena were Mark 22 Sherrill. 23 Do you know Mark Sherrill? 24 A I don't know him personally, no. 25 Q Okay. Robert Womack? 186 1 A No. His father, but I don't know him. 2 Q Robert Womack? 3 A I know him. 4 Q Mark Sherrill's father, Gary Sherrill? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And then Dave Mason? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Dave Mason is a distant relative? 9 A Yeah. My mother's cousin, I think it is, 10 on the Clifton side. 11 Q The first week of May of -- withdraw that 12 question. 13 Dave Mason sold his business to somebody 14 in the last few years; is that correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And who was that? 17 A You mean his regular business? Toms 18 Sierra Company. 19 Q That was basically the gas stations? 20 A Gas stations and the business part of it. 21 I think he still owns some of the buildings and stuff 22 that were part of that business. 23 Q So it's your understanding that Dave Mason 24 owns the dirt and Toms Sierra owns the business, if that 25 is true? 187 1 A I don't know it's all true. I know he 2 kept some of the property. I don't know if he kept it 3 all. 4 Q You are related to Dave Mason; not to Dave 5 Mason's wife. Correct? 6 A Right. 7 Q So several years ago, he sold the 8 business. So it's your understanding that many of the 9 gas stations were being operated by Toms Sierra? 10 A Yes. I think Dave -- I think the one 11 where the tank was, I think was operated by Mason. And 12 after Toms Sierra took over, I think they closed it down 13 not to too long after that. 14 Q Do you remember the last time that station 15 selling gas was? 16 A Hmmm... Probably two years. Two years 17 ago maybe. 18 Q Army Navy guy in there just leasing the 19 space? Or do you remember that? 20 A No, I don't remember that. 21 Q Okay. Dave Mason had to sell that 22 property. Are you aware of that? Or do you remember 23 that the property was up for sale? 24 A I remember he was going to sell the 25 property, yes. 188 1 Q Do you guys spend holidays together? Are 2 you that close of relatives? 3 A We both have motor homes and we travel 4 together once in a while, yes. 5 Q And so did you know that he had to sell it 6 to pay off a debt or not? 7 A Yes, I knew that. 8 Q And he needed the money right away? 9 A Yes. He was -- yeah, he needed the money 10 for another matter, yeah. 11 Q And he -- he actually dropped the price 12 drastically to sell it to Mr. Womack. Do you know that? 13 A That's what I understand, yes. 14 Q From Dave telling you that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q So he wanted X and he sold it for X minus 17 because he had to have the money? 18 A Right. 19 Q He had to have the money by the end of 20 April. Is that your understanding? 21 A Yeah. He probably had to have it before 22 that, but he was able to hold off longer, I think. 23 Q Finally, he received this check from one 24 of the Womacks. Do you know which one? 25 A No, I don't. I assume it was Bob Womack, 189 1 but I don't know for sure. 2 Q That was to purchase the dirt and 3 everything with the dirt. That's your understanding? 4 A That's right. 5 Q Did you ever see the contract between Mr. 6 Mason and Mr. Womack? 7 A No. 8 Q So you don't know anything about the 9 language of when this sale becomes final or anything 10 along those lines? 11 A No, I don't. 12 Q Did you know that today Dave Mason still 13 owns the property? 14 A I know it has not been transferred. I 15 know that much, yeah. 16 Q So he had to secure a note. 17 Do you know anything about the secured 18 note because the property wasn't cleaned? 19 A Yeah, I know that he got the money prior 20 to the time that the property being transferred. He has 21 a note back, I guess, he had to give back for that. 22 Q You don't own any gas stations; is that 23 correct? 24 A No. Fortunately. 25 Q You haven't had to pull any underground 190 1 storage tanks? 2 A No, I haven't. 3 Q Do you know if Mr. Mason in the past has 4 pulled underground storage tanks? 5 A Yeah, he has. I think some of his other 6 stations from time to time. In fact, that station right 7 there, he pulled the old tanks out of, I think, and put 8 that new one in. 9 Q Do you know if he got county permits or 10 anything? 11 A I am sure he did at that time, yeah. 12 Q I don't remember your answer, but how do 13 you know Bob Womack? 14 A Oh, he has appeared before the Board a few 15 times on other property matters and so forth, 16 certificates of compliance and boundary line adjustments, 17 things of that nature. That's how I came to know him. 18 Q He owns a large parcel of land near the 19 Rancheria. Is that your understanding? 20 A Yeah, that's the property I am talking 21 about. 22 Q Golf Court Estates or something like that? 23 A Somebody else is going to develop it. I 24 think he has still got title to it. There has been two 25 or three different developers come in. 191 1 Q What do you think about Robert Womack? 2 I cut you off. Go ahead. 3 A Go ahead. 4 Q Land developer. Is that pretty much what 5 you know his job to be? Or do you know of other jobs? 6 A Well, I know of him just through that 7 property, the dealings with that property up there. And 8 he sold some property, I think, in Nevada or someplace 9 that enables him to do this. 10 Q Okay. Then in April or May of this year, 11 the underground storage tank issue came to the surface, I 12 guess? 13 A Right. 14 Q Do you remember how you first heard about 15 that? 16 A Dave Mason called me. I guess it was on 17 Monday night, probably the day after -- day after the 18 tank was pulled. 19 Anyway, I got in my book we met him at 20 noontime on Tuesday, the 5th, I think it was, that we 21 met. And he brought to my attention that Womack and 22 whoever was helping him out pulled the tank out over the 23 weekend and they didn't have the proper permit. And he 24 asked myself to come in and sit down, Planning 25 Department, and talk about it, and see what we could do 192 1 to remedy the situation. 2 Q And those people present at that meeting 3 on May 5th were, if you recall? 4 A Myself, Gary Clark, Land Use Director, 5 Mr. Fourt -- I am embarrassed. His name is Bob, isn't 6 it? 7 Q Yeah. 8 A Bob Fourt, who is the underground tank 9 specialist for the county; Rich Escamilla from the Board 10 of Supervisors; Dave Mason and Bob Womack. I think 11 that's it. 12 Q And you met that morning? 13 A At noontime, at the lunch break, I think, 14 from the -- I have in my book we met at noon or that's 15 when I was supposed to meet them. Maybe we met before 16 the meeting. 17 Q I am not trying to set you up. 18 Apparently, there was a pre-meeting with Gary Clark, 19 Fourt; and then you had a noontime meeting. 20 A Yeah, I think it's noontime when I -- I 21 don't -- unless we got there at 8:30 before the meeting 22 started. I really don't recall. All I know is, we met, 23 you know, sometime that day. 24 Q Do Board meetings normally start at 10:00? 25 A 9:00. 193 1 Q This might refresh your recollection. It 2 might not. If it doesn't, let me know. 3 These are notes from Bob Fourt. Meeting 4 was held approximately 10:00 a.m. to brief Supervisors 5 Bamert and Escamilla on tank removal and threats to 6 public safety created by removal. Present were Gary 7 Clark, Robert Fourt, Supervisors Bamert and Escamilla and 8 Connie Sherrill, Planning Commissioner. 9 The site was reviewed. Safety hazard 10 presented by the water filled. Tank excavation was 11 discussed. County staff instructed to continue to 12 investigate the removal and work with the tank owner and 13 other responsible parties to retroactively complete the 14 tank closure and solve -- 15 A We have a break at 10:00. Perhaps we did 16 meet at 10:00. He is probably right. 17 Q You said, Let's go ahead and meet at noon 18 for Dave and Robert? 19 A I thought it was at noon. We probably met 20 earlier because of whatever. I don't know. 21 Q Again, Mr. Fourt's notes indicate there 22 was a noon meeting with everybody present. 23 A I don't remember meeting twice that day. 24 That's what's got me confused. I thought it was all one 25 meeting. 194 1 Q You go to a lot of meetings? 2 A Yeah. 3 Q It says the meeting was held approximately 4 noon to discuss the tank removal. Present at meeting 5 were Supervisors Bamert, Escamilla, Clark, Israel, Fourt 6 and David Mason, Robert Womack. 7 Mr. Mason stated, although he had given 8 permission for demolition and removal of the tanks, he 9 was unaware the tanks were to be removed on Saturday. 10 Mr. Womack stated he was unaware of the 11 underground storage tank permitting requirement. He had 12 inquired of Clark and Israel on tank closure procedures. 13 Do you remember this at all, that's kind 14 of what Womack's story was? 15 A It was kind of going back and forth 16 discussion, you know. Yeah. He would have -- Womack 17 indicated he didn't know -- I think he thought he had a 18 real permit from the City of Jackson to do that. 19 As I understand it, he had a permit to 20 raze the station, but he didn't specify tank removal, as 21 I remember it. 22 Q And were you present at any conversations 23 where he was saying that the tank went to Owens Illinois? 24 A Yeah. I think he said that -- somebody 25 said that during that meeting, I believe, yeah. 195 1 Of course, you know, I had said to him -- 2 and I am sure other people, too, you know -- get the tank 3 back. Get the tank so we can see it and, you know, be 4 out of trouble. But that did not occur. 5 Q He told you didn't know where the tank 6 was? 7 A That's right. 8 Q Has he ever told you that he is the one 9 that drove the tank away? 10 A No, he has not told me that. He told me 11 that -- he told us that it was someone that was in Mel's 12 at the same time they were before they removed the tank, 13 and they were talking about getting rid of the tank. And 14 whoever these people are supposedly said they would take 15 it. 16 Q That was the second story, right? That 17 was the one after it went to Owens Illinois? 18 A I suppose. It all runs together, I guess. 19 I don't think he said a positive 20 statement about it being at Owens Illinois. I think it 21 was, you know, a supposition that -- or whatever, that it 22 might have been there. 23 Q The notes for the meeting from Mr. 24 Fourt -- I don't think this will help. 25 There wasn't a court reporter or someone 196 1 taking notes at this meeting? 2 A No. 3 Q This was just, Let's chat and talk about 4 the issues? 5 A Right. We did not -- as far as I know, 6 nobody took minutes. You know, might have taken notes. 7 I didn't. 8 Q Mr. Robert Womack states dispensers 9 presently stored at Bossi Ranch. Mr. Mason stated 10 underground storage tanks were transported to Owens 11 Illinois facility in Ione. Mr. Mason stated that Owens 12 Illinois was interested in using the tanks since there 13 was a bad tank at Owens Illinois that needed to be 14 replaced. 15 Do you remember David Mason saying that? 16 A I don't remember that because -- no, I 17 don't remember David saying that. 18 Q Do you remember being told by Mr. Womack 19 that everything went to the dump? 20 A Well -- 21 Q Other than the tank? 22 A Well, the pumps and stuff went up to -- 23 Q Bossi? 24 A Bossi Ranch. And pipes and such, I think, 25 went up to the dump. 197 1 Q So do you -- has anyone told you that the 2 first seven loads went to the dump; and everything the 3 next day and a half went to Mark Sherrill's property? 4 A I never heard about seven loads, so I 5 can't say that I knew that. 6 Q Anybody tell that you that stuff went to 7 Sherrill's property? 8 A No. 9 Q Anybody tell you that stuff went to the 10 old Georgia Pacific mill? 11 A No, that I remember. The only one I 12 remember is the Owens discussion. 13 Q And the I don't know whose truck 14 discussion for the tank? 15 A Yeah, yeah. Bob Womack said -- well, he 16 didn't know whether it was a truck trailer, whatever they 17 loaded it on, because it was raining so hard, he 18 didn't -- you know, didn't know. 19 Q Dave Mason is not very happy about this 20 whole situation. Is that your understanding? 21 A Yes. That's my understanding, yes. 22 Q He thinks we are being a little hard on 23 him. Is that your understanding? 24 A Yeah. Yeah. I think I told you that when 25 I met with you after -- I don't know. Whenever we met in 198 1 June or July or whenever it was. 2 Q But the tank eventually showed up. Is 3 that your understanding? 4 A That's what I understand. Sometime in 5 September, I guess. 6 Q It was after a meeting we had in 7 September. 8 Is that also your understanding, where we 9 had a meeting, everybody sat around a table and we said: 10 Better find the tank? 11 A I had heard you had a meeting in 12 September, yeah. This is all secondhand to me, because, 13 you know, I heard -- oh, is that the one that I had heard 14 that Mrs. Sherrill wanted to go into and you wouldn't let 15 her go in or whatever? 16 Q Something along those lines. 17 A Okay. So I heard about that meeting, but 18 I don't know too much about what went on. 19 Q Four days later, the tank shows up? 20 A I don't know if it was four days later, 21 you know. That I don't. I heard it showed up. I can't 22 cannot remember the day it showed up. 23 Q Mr. Mason had problems at his other gas 24 station sites? Or you know that one way or the other? 25 A No, not that I know of. He had a spill 199 1 one time up at the plant up there. It was cleaned up. 2 Q The bulk plant? 3 A Yeah. That was handled by an outfit out 4 of Sacramento. 5 Q Okay. Subsequent to the May -- to the 6 first week of May meeting, do you remember anything else 7 specific about who was responsible for the tanks and 8 where the tank went, any of those types of things, that 9 you would like the Members of the Grand Jury to hear? 10 A Well, you know, I -- I heard things about 11 it, I guess, through the summer. Not so much 12 continuously, but once in a while it would come up. 13 Especially after the investigation part of it. 14 And I had a couple different calls, I 15 think, from Bob Womack. Yeah. Of course, all I could 16 ever say was, you know, Wherever the tank is, get it and 17 get it back. 18 Q This is after the May -- 19 A Yeah, yeah. 20 Q So is he calling just to complain about 21 the whole way the County is treating him? 22 A Yeah. The last call was not too long 23 before the tank was, you know, discovered or whatever. I 24 spent about 20 minutes on the phone with him, I guess, 25 talking about the whole thing. And I just kept going 200 1 back to the point that, you know, Find the tank. And 2 maybe that will help get... 3 Q It was explained to you one of the issues 4 was, if the tank was put into use somewhere else, it 5 could be causing contamination of ground water and all of 6 those things. Is that some of the stuff that was 7 explained to you? 8 A Well, the -- what was explained to me was, 9 the law says you have to have them inspected when they 10 are pulled out. And they have to be done a certain way. 11 And they have to be done by licensed people to do that 12 work. 13 The biggest comment I heard from some of 14 the staff was being a tank, it wasn't properly disposed 15 of or transported with some method of keeping it from 16 exploding. You know, you are hauling a time bomb down 17 the street type of thing. Of course, that did not occur, 18 fortunately. 19 But I don't think there was danger of that 20 tank contaminating things. It was a new style tank. It 21 had only been in the ground four years or so, I guess. 22 Q Subsequent uses are unknown because no one 23 was there to watch it come out of ground? 24 A Right. 25 MR. IREY: Okay. Thank you for your time. 201 1 I have no further questions of Supervisor 2 Bamert at this time. Any members of the Grand Jury have 3 any questions, I would be happy -- don't be shy. 4 Thank you for your time. The Grand Jury 5 Foreman has an admonition for you. 6 GRAND JUROR: I have a question. I need to write 7 it? 8 MR. IREY: I don't think I explained this to you, 9 Supervisor Bamert. 10 After I am done asking questions, any 11 member of the Grand Jury can submit to me in writing a 12 question. I look at it to see if it's -- 13 THE WITNESS: They can't ask their own 14 questions? 15 MR. IREY: No, they can't. I have to ask what 16 they write. 17 THE WITNESS: That's different from television. 18 MR. IREY: Then I read it into the record. It's 19 just as if.. 20 Q Do you know where -- this is two 21 questions. I will ask your question first, then I will 22 ask another question. 23 Do you know where is the tank? 24 A I heard it was delivered to a place in 25 Lodi, that tank, and has been destroyed. That's what I 202 1 heard. 2 Q Do you know where the tank was? 3 A No, I don't. 4 Q Did you ask anybody if they knew? 5 A No. I didn't ask anybody where it was. I 6 just said, Get it back, wherever it is. 7 Q Did Bob Womack ever tell you he didn't 8 know where it was? 9 A Oh, yeah. 10 Q Did Bob Womack ever tell you he wrote 11 himself a check for the reward? 12 A No. I didn't know that. 13 Q We are not positive that this is writing 14 himself a check for the reward. This is Grand Jury 15 Exhibit No. 5. 16 Do you know what Bob Womack's signature 17 looks like? 18 A Not really. 19 Q Can you read the bottom left corner. 20 A Robert for tank reward, question mark. 21 Q Date? 22 A September 7th, '98. 23 Q Did Robert Womack tell you after that 24 September meeting where Ms. Sherrill may not have been 25 allowed to be present, that he was going to post a 203 1 reward? 2 A Yeah. He said he was going to offer a 3 thousand dollar reward in the paper. 4 Q What date does the Amador paper come out? 5 A Comes out Monday, Wednesday, Friday. 6 Q On a holiday, what day would it come out? 7 Tuesday? 8 A I don't know what day you are talking 9 about. 10 Q Labor Day. 11 A I don't know if they come out the day 12 before or the day after, to tell you the truth. 13 Q Okay. 14 A I know I don't get mine until the day 15 after because of the mail. I get mine in the mail. 16 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other Grand Jurors? Looks 17 like somebody was tearing off paper in the back? No. 18 What did I do with that question? I have 19 to keep them. 20 grand JUROR: You gave it back to me. 21 MR. IREY: I apologize. 22 Okay. 23 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 24 to any person except as directed by the Court what 25 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 204 1 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 2 Grand Jury's investigation that you learn during your 3 appearance before the Grand Jury. 4 This admonition continues unless and until 5 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 6 is made public. 7 Violation of this admonition is punishable 8 as contempt of court. This does not prevent you from 9 discussing the matter with your attorney if you have an 10 attorney advising you with respect to your appearance 11 before the Grand Jury. 12 And sir, I need you to sign and date that 13 I read that to you. 14 Before we break -- I will read you your 15 admonition before we recess. 16 And you wanted fifteen minutes? Is that 17 fine? 18 MR. IREY: As long as -- 19 THE FOREPERSON: Is 15 minutes comfortable with 20 everybody? We will meet back here at 3:30. 21 Okay. And to my fellow Jurors: The Grand 22 Jurors are admonished that they are not to form or 23 express any opinions about this case or discuss it 24 amongst themselves until the Grand Jury receives the case 25 for deliberation. 205 1 In addition, no inspection of evidence 2 should be conducted without the permission of the 3 Foreperson and on the advice of the prosecuting attorney. 4 A violation of this rule can could result 5 in a charge of contempt against a Grand Juror who would 6 investigate or view any matters with regard to this case 7 without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 8 Thank you. 9 (Recess taken from 3:17 to 3:35 p.m.) 10 THE FOREPERSON: We need to make a roll, please. 11 If you will take your seats, we need to take a roll. 12 THE SECRETARY: As soon as they are sitting, I 13 will just count them. 14 Ready. 15 THE FOREPERSON: Just a note. Someone had come 16 up to me and said they didn't get a copy of the minutes. 17 I think you should be able to speak up in 18 mid stream, I mean, after someone is excused, so you can 19 get that. Is that correct? 20 MR. IREY: Absolutely. There won't be that many 21 documents passed out to everybody. Jury instruction 22 packet was thick enough. It's just that that particular 23 document, as I knew those four or five witnesses in a row 24 would testify to, I thought it would be probably a 25 helpful document. 206 1 Are we going to count to 19 or -- 2 THE SECRETARY: I did. 3 MR. IREY: Next witness will be Emmett Rettagl -- 4 GRAND JUROR: Rettagliata. 5 GRAND JUROR: How many more witnesses will we 6 have today? 7 MR. IREY: Three, I believe. Is that okay? 8 GRAND JUROR: Yeah, that's fine. 9 THE FOREPERSON: Sir, if you would remain 10 standing and raise your right hand. 11 Do you solemnly swear that the evidence 12 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 13 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 14 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 15 THE WITNESS: I do. 16 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 17 (TIME NOTED: 3:36 p.m.) 18 ---oOo--- 19 EMMETT RETTAGLIATA 20 Called as a witness herein by the People, 21 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 22 and testified as follows: 23 EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. IREY: 25 Q Emmett, I can't pronounce your last name 207 1 without more practice. 2 Could you pronounce your last name and 3 spell it for the record, please. 4 A Last name is Rettagliata, 5 R-E-T-T-A-G-L-I-A-T-A. 6 Q And who is your current employer? 7 A Amador Disposal. 8 Q Before that, who was your employer? 9 A Amador County Sheriff's Office. 10 Q For how many years? 11 A Thirty-one. 12 Q So you are in law enforcement for 31 13 years? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q You recently retired? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q You have a part-time job? 18 A At Amador Disposal. 19 Q Which is known as Buena Vista Landfill? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And were you working there on May 2nd? 22 A Yes. 23 Q 1998? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And did you weigh any loads of debris? 208 1 A Yes, I did. 2 Q Did you weigh any loads of debris from 3 Mark Sherrill's trucks? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q And did you keep track of the weight of 6 those trucks? 7 A Yes, I did. 8 Q And how did you do that? 9 A On scrap paper. 10 Q Okay. And at the end of the day, did you 11 total it up? 12 A Yes. 13 Q I call them weight tags. 14 I am going to show you an exhibit marked 15 Grand Jury Exhibit No. 12. These are photocopied tags. 16 Do you recognize this two-page document? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q And there are some actual stamped 19 weights. That's from your actual scale; is that correct? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And all of the rest of the handwriting on 22 here is your own? 23 A Handwriting on the tags are mine. 24 Q And the handwriting in the margin is not 25 yours? 209 1 A No, sir. 2 Q And the handwriting on the tags, gold 3 truck, gold truck -- well, let's start on the first 4 page. Red truck in. Red truck out. Red truck in. Red 5 truck out. Gold truck in. Gold truck out. 6 Second page: Gold truck in. Gold truck 7 out. Gold truck in. Out. Gold truck in. 8 So six total trucks? 9 A Six total loads. 10 Q Total loads? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Two trucks. One had four loads. 13 A One had four loads. One had six loads. 14 Q One had four loads? 15 A I'm sorry. One had two loads. One had 16 three loads or four loads. 17 Q And the total weight of the trucks in 18 tons? 19 A It would be -- without totalling this up, 20 it would be 24 ton -- 24.76 ton. 21 Q And you remembered at the end of the day 22 then someone signed -- provided a check; is that 23 correct? If you remember? 24 A I don't remember. 25 Q Okay. I am going show you a photocopy of 210 1 a check made out for $720. Is it about $30 a ton 2 approximately the right rate? 3 A At that time. 4 Q It's a little higher now? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And can you tell from the weight tags what 7 time trucks stopped coming to the landfill that day? 8 A I would guess probably around 11:30, 9 12:00. 10 Q A.m? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q So six loads by 11:30 a.m., 24 tons and 13 some change, $30 a ton, around $750? 14 A Yeah, yes. 15 Q This is Check 3698 dated 5/2/98 from KRL 16 Partnership. 17 Do you understand the handwriting on that 18 check? 19 A No, I don't. 20 Q Okay. 21 A I recognize the initials up here in the 22 upper left-hand corner. Those are mine. 23 Q In blue ink? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q ERL? 211 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q That would have been a check on 5/2/98? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q $720? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q The bottom left-hand corner, "Trash 7 Service station." Is that how it reads? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q This is not your handwriting in blue ink? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q So the $720 matches the approximate 12 tonnage for Saturday morning? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Did you work that Sunday, if you recall. 15 For the record, you are getting out your 16 schedule? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 No, sir, I did not work the 3rd. 19 Q Okay. So you can only answer to what you 20 collected from KRL or Bob Womack through Sherrill via 21 that check? 22 A On May 2nd. 23 Q And you wrote: Gold truck, gold truck, 24 gold truck, gold truck, and two red trucks? 25 A Yes, sir. 212 1 Q That's the total? 2 A That's each one of their loads coming in. 3 Q And that's how much material was taken to 4 the landfill that day? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And you worked until the end of the day? 7 A Until 5:00. 8 MR. IREY: I have no further questions of this 9 witness. If any member of the Grand Jury have any 10 questions? 11 THE FOREPERSON: I do. 12 MR. IREY: Okay. 13 Q While we are waiting, have you been 14 contacted by Mr. Sherrill or Mr. Womack or Mr. Mason 15 regarding the material they took to the landfill? 16 A I have not. 17 Q It is a Class 2 landfill. Is that your 18 understanding? 19 A As far as I know, yes. 20 Q If any contaminated soil is brought in, it 21 needs to have testing and all that information? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Would you deal with those issues? Or 24 would someone else? 25 A No. 213 1 Q Question one. Where was the debris 2 unloaded? 3 A Inside the building in what they call the 4 Murph Transfer Station. 5 Q That's actually people hand-sort material? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q So if it was contaminated soil, they would 8 be hand-sorting contaminated soil? 9 A Not on Saturday or Sunday. 10 Q So everything on Saturday or Sunday comes 11 into the Murph Station? 12 A Yes, it goes right into the truck, pushed 13 into the truck. 14 Q And out? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And it's driven to a different county, 17 correct? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q Do you know what county? 20 A I think at that time they were going to 21 Fairfield. 22 Q Did you see it unloaded? 23 A No. 24 Q And I will ask a question: Did you see 25 any of the loads that day unloaded at the Murph station? 214 1 A Not unloaded, no. 2 Q I will ask a third question, but I think 3 we are going to know the answer. Did it appears wet? 4 A Some of it did, yes. 5 Q So you saw it in the back of the truck? 6 A Yes, sir. On the scale. I would climb up 7 on the truck and look inside the truck. 8 Q To see how you were going to categorize 9 it? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Debris, wood? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Various rates for various types of debris? 14 A Not if it's on a scale. 15 Q All one rate? 16 A Yes. 17 Q $30 a ton at that time? 18 A I think so. 19 MR. IREY: Any other questions? Okay. 20 Q Did you take underground storage tanks out 21 there? 22 A No, I don't think so. 23 Q How long have you worked there? 24 A About two years. There is a sign right 25 out there at the gate as you come in that says: No 215 1 hazardous waste. 2 Q Do you recall who was driving the red 3 truck? 4 A If I could see my tags? 5 Q Okay. 6 A Nick Hernandez. 7 Q He was driving the red truck on the first 8 load and on the second load? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Who is this? 11 A That's the -- the red truck is the 12 Bobtail, the ten-wheeler. The gold truck is the 13 18-wheeler. 14 Q But your first tag says Nick Hernandez on 15 the -- 16 A On the red truck. 17 Q The second red truck says? 18 A That isn't my writing there. 19 Q That's someone else? 20 A I don't know who put that on there. 21 Q But Nick Hernandez is your writing? 22 A No. 23 Q Oh, neither? 24 A Neither one of those. 25 Q Okay. So you are not positive who was 216 1 driving the red truck and who was driving the gold truck? 2 A Well, the gold truck was the 18-wheeler. 3 I remember that. The red truck was the bobtail. 4 Q And the 18-wheeler is also called an 5 end-up? Is that what they are called? 6 A Mm-hmm. 7 Q They are a little trickier to drive 8 because they can tip over? 9 A They are very long. 10 Q And hold substantially more? 11 A Yes, it does. 12 Q In fact, it looks like the red truck was 13 only about a ton and a half or two tons, where the gold 14 truck was hauling up to 6.7 tons? 15 A 4.91, 5.3, 6.7. 16 Q So three times as much as the red truck? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Did you ask if the loads contained any 19 contaminated material? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q Because the sign out front -- 22 A Sign out front says, No hazardous waste. 23 MR. IREY: Any other? 24 THE SECRETARY: Here. 25 Q BY MR. IREY: Did any of the material you 217 1 were close to have any odors that you recognized, such as 2 gasoline or oil? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Do you recall -- or your answer is, No, 5 you couldn't? 6 A (Witness nods head.) 7 Q Thank you for that answer. I will ask 8 another question. 9 Would you have noticed if they had a 10 gasoline or oil odor? 11 A I am sure I would have. 12 Q It was mostly debris from a gas station, 13 correct? 14 A It was mostly debris. I don't know where 15 it came from. 16 Q Glass? 17 A Pipes, wood, tin. Things like that. 18 Q Because this was in the morning? 19 A Yes. 20 Q So it wasn't full of dirt and that type of 21 stuff? 22 A No, sir. 23 MR. IREY: Any other questions? Okay. 24 You have an admonition from the Foreman. 25 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to 218 1 reveal to any person except as directed by the Court 2 what questions were asked or what responses were given or 3 any other matters concerning the nature of the subject of 4 the Grand Jury investigation that you learned during your 5 appearance before the Grand Jury. 6 This admonition continues unless and until 7 such time as a transcript of this Grand Jury proceeding 8 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 9 punishable as contempt of court. 10 This does not prevent from you discussing 11 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 12 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 13 Grand Jury. 14 We thank you. If you could sign this for 15 me saying that I read that to you. Thank you very much. 16 MR. IREY: Thank you. 17 Richard Thorpe. 18 THE FOREPERSON: Do you solemnly swear that the 19 evidence you shall give in this investigation now pending 20 before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole 21 truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 22 THE WITNESS: I do. 23 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 24 (TIME NOTED 3:50 p.m.) 25 219 1 ---oOo--- 2 RICHARD THORPE 3 Called as a witness herein by the People, 4 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 5 and testified as follows: 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. IREY: 8 Q Mr. Thorpe, I probably put you in the 9 wrong spot. Let me take this document. If you could 10 have a seat over here by me for a couple of minutes. We 11 are going to play the last, oh, five or ten minutes of a 12 tape for you. 13 A Okay. 14 Q I am going to ask you a couple questions 15 here at the beginning. 16 Mr. Thorpe, what business are you in? 17 A Jim Thorpe, Incorporated. Been in 18 business since 1967. We also are environmental 19 contractor and removing underground tanks, do clean-ups, 20 those kinds of things. 21 Q How long have you been doing that? 22 A We got our contractor's license in 1986 23 and we dabbled in that kind of thing to help our 24 customers out here and there prior to that, since we have 25 been in business. 220 1 Q How many underground storage tanks, if you 2 have an idea, plus or minus 100, has your business 3 removed? 4 A We figure somewhere around 900 right now. 5 Q You are president of the company? 6 A Yes, I am. 7 Q What percent of your business activities 8 are related to removal of underground storage tanks? 9 A Well, right now, it's quite a bit of it, 10 I would think probably 75 percent of it. Because the 11 deadline for underground tank removal is coming December 12 22nd, '98. 13 MR. IREY: I am going to probably -- just a 14 moment. Channel 3? 15 GRAND JUROR: Yes. 16 THE FOREPERSON: Did it get rewound. 17 Q BY MR. IREY: Mr. Thorpe, who else is in 18 the business with yourself? 19 A My brother, my two nephews, my wife and 20 one driver that has been with me for 20 -- 25, 20 years. 21 Q The oil part of your business is a bulk 22 facility? 23 A Bulk distributor. 24 Q Card locks? 25 A Yes. 221 1 MR. IREY: Let me sneak a secret witness in here 2 to deal with this for a moment. 3 INVESTIGATOR HALL: All the way to the 4 beginning? 5 MR. IREY: For the record, Ron Hall, 6 Investigator, is here to help me with the tape machine. 7 INVESTIGATOR HALL: How far back? 8 MR. IREY: Right when the excavator is scraping 9 the sides of the tank, please. 10 INVESTIGATOR HALL: We got to go a little bit 11 farther. 12 MR. IREY: While we are ate waiting for Mr. Hall, 13 did you or your business receive an underground storage 14 tank that originally began its existence at 505 Sutter 15 Street? 16 A I believe so, yes. 17 Q That was delivered to your place of 18 business? 19 A Yes, it was. 20 Q And when District Attorney Investigator 21 Hall and myself showed up as your business, did you take 22 the plates off the tank? 23 A Yes, sir, I did. I didn't take the 24 numbers down myself, but they look like the ones we have 25 took off the tank, yes. 222 1 Q That's marked Grand Jury Exhibit 15? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And Investigator Hall gave it to you 4 before we came in today? 5 A Yes. 6 Q You physically removed it from the side of 7 the tank? 8 A Yes. While you and Mr. Hall were there, 9 yeah. 10 Q Mr. Thorpe, I would like you to review 11 with the Members of the Grand Jury -- and you can talk 12 over the tape. 13 A No problem. 14 Q Regarding what you noticed about what's 15 being done right and wrong. 16 Mr. Hall, probably have to ask you to 17 leave before I finish the question. Thank you. 18 INVESTIGATOR HALL: Yeah. 19 Q BY MR. IREY: Mr. Thorpe, to begin with, 20 you reviewed this tape at the District Attorney's Office? 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q And generic -- what types of violations of 23 law did you notice? 24 A Well, first of all, all the people that 25 are working on the job, including the excavator operator, 223 1 anybody that might be in the immediate area of the tank 2 that's involved with pulling the tank, all need to have a 3 40-hour OSHA Haz Mat training before they can go onto one 4 of those jobs with their yearly update cards. That's 5 required by law. 6 Q Yearly update card being additional 7 eight-hour training? 8 A Eight-hour training session every year, 9 yes. 10 Q And it's Fed and State OSHA requirement? 11 A Yes. And I believe it's a requirement 12 of -- it's an OSHA training, but it's a requirement of 13 the Environmental Health Departments that you have that. 14 And I think it's State regulation, too, that you have 15 that before you can operate or work on a tank removal 16 job. 17 The only ones I know that don't have to 18 have the full 40 hour training are the truck drivers, 19 because they are staying in the trucks. And there's an 20 eight-hour class, I believe, that they have. 21 Q For hauling the tanks and contaminated 22 soil? 23 A Yes. 24 Q With the waste water here that came from 25 the hole, what do you notice them doing? Have any 224 1 problems with the way they are managing that waste water? 2 A Well, they aren't managing it at all. And 3 if you don't know that the water is contaminated, it's 4 pretty hard to contain -- when you dig a tank up like 5 that, to contain it. I mean, you are going to get some 6 water. 7 But if you suspect that it's contaminated, 8 what you may want to do is dewater the hole before you 9 pull the tank so that you are not -- you will dig down to 10 where there is a water level, so that you are not getting 11 into the water and slopping it around like is being 12 showed there. 13 Q So they are taking -- you said earlier in 14 your pre-interview with Russ Moore that you noticed a 15 sheen on the water? 16 A Yes. It hasn't come to that portion of it 17 yet, but yes. And what I saw at the other office, there 18 was a sheen on the water. 19 Q And that would indicate what to you? 20 A That there is gasoline or petroleum 21 hydrocarbon on the water, yeah. 22 Q You have to manage that water differently 23 than you do fresh water? 24 A Yes, you do. It has to be treated as 25 hazardous waste. 225 1 Q That water in the hole, until it's 2 sampled, has to be treated as hazardous waste? 3 A If you suspect there is contamination 4 there. Obviously, with a sheen on top of the water, that 5 would be a pretty good indication there was something 6 there. 7 Q So at your business, how do you handle a 8 sheen on the water? Do you handle it as hazardous waste 9 initially? 10 A Oh, yes. What you have to do, it just 11 depends on if it interferes with what you are -- what you 12 are doing. I wouldn't -- if I was doing that job, I 13 wouldn't be doing it with that machine. I would be doing 14 it with a much smaller machine. 15 Q Half-yard bucket instead of two-yard 16 bucket? 17 A That's more than a two-yard bucket. 18 That's a big machine. 19 And I wouldn't be slopping water all over 20 like that. We would have probably a one-foot bucket on 21 there and digging alongside the tank and have a whole lot 22 smaller trench and a lot smaller area. 23 Q To minimize what? 24 A Minimize the amount of material you have 25 to handle, and minimize how much water you would be 226 1 slopping around. 2 Q At this point is where you saw the sheen? 3 A Yeah. There's it is, right there. It's 4 very obvious. 5 Q And again, you've pulled approximately 900 6 tanks? 7 A Yeah. 8 Q What about hard hats and things along 9 those lines? 10 A Well, if you are going to follow the rule, 11 the OSHA rule, to the letter, why, all the guys on the 12 job are required to wear hard hats. They are all 13 required to have steel-toed boots. They are all required 14 to wear eye protection and gloves, if they are handling 15 the tanks and so on. That's an OSHA rule. 16 Q So you would be using a bucket with a 17 fourth of this width just to scrape along the sides? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And your employees are all trained in 20 40-hour? 21 A Yes, they are. 22 Q With the yearly refresher? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q You have to handle the water as hazardous 25 waste. 227 1 What about the piping? 2 A Well, what they should be doing there is 3 that, when you have a project like this, the first thing 4 you do is to flush the piping back into the tank. 5 Q From the dispenser? 6 A From the dispenser pumps, whatever you are 7 using. And you would pull the angle checks or the 8 functional elements, which are check valves that -- 9 Q What -- I'm sorry? What is a functional? 10 A Functional element. 11 Q Can you see a functional element in here 12 somewhere? 13 A No. I believe these are pumps -- not 14 submersible pumps. I believe they are suction pumps. 15 Q So there's stages and steps you go 16 through? 17 A Yes. And you take the check valve out of 18 the line, and then let the gasoline or diesel fuel, 19 whatever it is, bleed back into the tank. Then you 20 triple rinse the line. 21 Q With? 22 A With hot water and soap, back into the 23 tank. And you suck that out. You have a vacuum truck or 24 use your own pump. You put it in a barrel and label it. 25 It has to be handled as hazardous waste. Then you would 228 1 triple rinse the tank, the vacuum truck. That's what I 2 normally do when I do the job. Have the vacuum truck 3 sucking the rinsate out as we are doing it, rinsing the 4 tanks, so I don't have to deal with barrels and labeling 5 has hazardous waste. That goes away under manifest for 6 disposal at a proper disposal facility. 7 Q That's the water you use to rinse piping 8 and tank? 9 A Right. 10 Q What if it's impossible to triple rinse 11 the piping? What do you have to do with the piping at 12 that point? 13 A It would have to be -- if you couldn't 14 triple rinse it, it would have to be handled as hazardous 15 waste and taken to a proper facility. 16 Q So if not triple rinse, then? 17 A Then it's hazardous waste. 18 Q What about the tank? 19 A Same thing. 20 Q If not triple rinsed, then? 21 A It's hazardous waste. 22 Q Same thing with the waste water? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q What about the soil? 25 A Well, soil can be contaminated and not 229 1 hazardous waste. Soil, depending upon what the levels of 2 contamination are, that -- what the contaminant is, it's 3 either deemed hazardous waste or just contaminated soil. 4 Q But you have to test it? 5 A Yes, it has to be tested. 6 Q So if not tested, how do you have to 7 handle it? 8 A It has to be handled as hazardous waste 9 because you don't know what is there. 10 Q Okay. So you listed some OSHA 11 violations. You explained -- when he just tossed the 12 piping from the underground storage tank into the bottom 13 of the pit, is that the appropriate way of handling 14 piping? 15 A No, it's not. 16 Q You listed the water violations. You 17 listed the rinsate violations. You listed piping 18 violations and tank violations and soil violations and 19 OSHA violations. 20 What about hauling the contaminated soil 21 on the roadway untested? 22 A Untested, it has to be considered 23 hazardous waste. It has to be manifested. 24 Q What about the other debris, the concrete, 25 the piping? 230 1 A No. 2 Q The conduit and all of that? 3 A No. That's just demolition debris. The 4 only thing that would be required there -- normally, when 5 they are doing a commercial building -- and I don't know 6 what Amador County's rules are, but, like, in San Joaquin 7 County, they would require an asbestos survey. 8 Q Before the demo? 9 A Before the demo. And then other than -- 10 but the concrete and that kind of stuff and the conduit 11 and those kinds of things don't really enter into the 12 tank system, itself. They are just -- they are outside 13 things. 14 Q Again, this bucket is creating five to six 15 times the amount of waste material? 16 A Oh, yeah. 17 Q What are the risers called? Are those 18 actually the fill spots? 19 A Well, the -- that one, see that pulling 20 over there. 21 Q Yeah. I have a question regarding that. 22 A That one spilling water out there, 23 that's -- that's the overspill protect or overfill 24 protector. 25 Q How did you determine just by looking at 231 1 it that it was water? 2 A Well, it looks like water to me. Doesn't 3 look like gasoline. But it could well be. I don't 4 know. I can't tell from here. 5 Q When you are -- well, you say you don't 6 commonly take a bunch of waste water out of a hole with a 7 bucket. You use a vacuum? 8 A You try not to, yeah. 9 Q Could the water in the overhead -- could 10 it have been water in the overhead from the way the 11 bucket was being handled? 12 A No. Probably -- well, it could be, yes. 13 Yeah. But I would guess that it might have been water 14 that leaked in from when it was in place. 15 Q Just a low spot? 16 A Yeah. 17 Q Essentially, a five gallon? 18 A Yeah, that's what I would bet that it was. 19 Q And sometimes is that contaminated with 20 fuel? 21 A Yes, it would be. Because the inside of 22 that container gets gasoline on it all the time. 23 Q Okay. And then is there a check valve at 24 that spot normally as far as these things have a check 25 valve in them? Or can the water, if you dump water, they 232 1 go directly into the tank? 2 A Well, usually -- if you don't mind, I will 3 show you here. 4 Q Okay. 5 A This one is in place. This one is 6 broken. There is normally a conduit of pipe or a piece 7 of flex line or something that goes from the bottom of 8 this overspill protector into this line that goes 9 directly into the tank. And there is a plug, a rubber 10 plug, that you pull out and it drains back in. 11 Because what happens is, if you pull 12 the -- your delivery hose off of here and there is some 13 gasoline or spills, and a lot of the times, up until they 14 started installing these things, that's where the 15 contamination came from. They just spilled gasoline. 16 Wasn't anybody's fault. Just nature of the beast. 17 So now they started putting these on 18 there, and they have, like I said, a conduit from the 19 bottom of this collector into that pipe that goes back 20 into the tank. 21 Q It's overfill protection? 22 A No. Overspill protection. Overspill. 23 Spill protector. 24 Q And tanks, themselves, aren't allowed to 25 be overfilled now because of ball floats? 233 1 A Especially after December 22nd, they have 2 to be updated. They have 95 percent overfill protector 3 in them that shuts the flow of the fuel going into the 4 tank off at 95 percent of the capacity of the tank. 5 You would find your angle check. This is 6 the angler space opening here. You find your angler or 7 your angle check in the suction line, which is one of 8 these here. I can't tell which one it is from looking at 9 it there. But that's where it would be, an angle check. 10 And all that is, like putting your finger 11 over the end of a straw that holds the fuel in the line, 12 so you don't have to -- the pump doesn't have to prime 13 every time. That's what that does. 14 When you are doing one of these jobs, what 15 you do is, you take that angle check out and let the fuel 16 drain back into the tank so that you can then triple 17 rinse the lines and suck the tank out. That's how it is 18 done. 19 Q Every time? Every job? 20 A Yeah. Well, yeah. That's -- it's either 21 submersible or suction. Or if it's a waste oil tank, 22 then there is not normally a check valve unit. This is 23 not a waste oil tank. This is a fuel gasoline tank. 24 Q What do you think about that? 25 A I don't know anything about karate. 234 1 Q You don't do akido? 2 A No. 3 Do you want me to stay here or over there? 4 Q Over there, please. Thanks. 5 So Mr. Thorpe, I will show you Grand Jury 6 Exhibit No. 14. Do you recognize that document? 7 A Yeah. This is -- this is from Erickson 8 Environmental. This is the certified -- the certificate 9 that the tank was destroyed at their facility in 10 Richmond. 11 Q Okay. It's three pages. You brought 12 these down today. I don't have copies of them, so I will 13 have to make copies of them sometime. 14 A No problem. 15 Q So the first one -- 16 A That's a certificate of destroyed. They 17 destroyed it. It tells what condition the tank was in 18 when we got it. It has the percent of oxygen and percent 19 of petroleum hydrocarbon. 20 Q When they actually received it? 21 A When they received the tank, right. 22 Q Which was September '98? 23 A I believe it was the 12th or 14th. 14th, 24 I think. 25 Q Top of it 28932? 235 1 A Yes. That's their invoice number. 2 Q That's called, like, a tank tracking 3 record? 4 A Well, yeah. I guess this would be the 5 final disposition record, yeah. 6 Q And the second page in what you brought 7 down today? 8 A Okay. This is Mr. Erickson's requirement 9 that you -- that you fill out when you bring the tank to 10 them. It tells what the tank number was, CAC number, the 11 size of the tank, what it was, what it had in it, where 12 it came from, who is hauling it. 13 Q With gasoline, you have more flammability 14 issues than you do with diesel? 15 A Yes. Gasoline is a flammable and diesel 16 is a combustible. That has to do with the temperature at 17 which it will flash. 18 Q This, the third page. What is today? 19 A Today is the 12th of November. 20 Q This is a letter dated November 12th. Did 21 you just write this today? 22 A Yes, I did. 23 Q What is that letter? 24 A Dave Mason called me this morning and 25 asked me if I had tested the tank when I received it in 236 1 my yard. 2 GRAND JUROR: Did you swear him? 3 MR. IREY: I apologize. That is a beautiful -- 4 THE FOREPERSON: I swore him in. 5 MR. IREY: Were you sworn in? 6 THE WITNESS: (Nods head.) 7 GRAND JUROR: Sorry. 8 THE WITNESS: It's okay. 9 MR. IREY: Always ask that question. Thank you. 10 GRAND JUROR: You turned white. 11 MR. IREY: I was thinking. 5:00, huh? It's 12 pretty interesting testimony. 13 Q So this is a letter. Dave Mason called 14 you today and Dave Mason chatted with you about what? 15 A About the tank. And he -- he asked me if 16 I had tested the level, the LEL level, Lower Explosion 17 Limit level in the tank when I received it in my yard. 18 And I told him yes, that I had. 19 Q Did he tell you why he was asking that? 20 A No. He just said he wanted to know. 21 Q When we spoke earlier today, you said 22 something about people are questioning? 23 A Yeah. There were supposed to be some 24 rumors going around about the tank. But that's all he 25 said, was rumors. Beyond that, I don't know. 237 1 Q But he used the words LEL? 2 A No. He just wanted to know -- that's my 3 terminology. He asked me if I had tested the tank for 4 vapors when it came into the yard. 5 Q You used the word earlier calling it a 6 cold tank? 7 A Right. 8 Q To you, what is a cold tank? 9 A One that shows a non-detect or my LEL, 10 Lower Explosion Limit, meter can't pick up any trace of 11 contaminant petroleum hydrocarbon vapor. 12 Q You are checking because, between a 13 bracket, it's explosive? 14 A Yes, right. Yes, it can be. 15 Q Could blow up? 16 A Yes, it could. 17 Q Do you know off the top of your head what 18 those levels are? 19 A Well, typically, when you -- just after 20 you get done pumping the fuel out of 'em, they are hot 21 enough to really explode. If you have 20 percent oxygen 22 or thereabouts and Lower Explosion Limit up in about the 23 80 or 90 percent range. Or in the 100 parts per million 24 or 200 parts per million range, why, you have got a bomb. 25 Q And if you loaded it on the highway? 238 1 A Well, if it fell off or somebody threw a 2 match in it or had a flame on it, it could blow, yeah. 3 Q Car wreck? 4 A Yeah, very much so. 5 Q So that's why you do what normally before 6 you start hauling underground storage tanks on the road? 7 A Well, when you pull a tank, the first 8 thing you do is, after you have triple rinsed it, is you 9 apply dry ice to the tank at the rate of the 30 pounds 10 per thousand gallons capacity for a gasoline tank and 11 20,000 -- or pardon me -- twenty pounds per thousand 12 gallons capacity for a diesel tank or an oil tank. 13 Q So 2,000 gallon tank, 60 pounds? 14 A Sixty pounds dry ice, which would be 15 good. We always overdo it. That's my personal 16 preference. We put more in than is required. 17 Q To be safe? 18 A To be safe. 19 Q For your employees? 20 A Right. 21 And then we measure the levels. You give 22 that dry ice a chance to dissipate for an hour or two or, 23 depending, sometimes longer than that. And then you 24 measure the oxygen and Lower Explosion Limit levels 25 before your pull the tank. 239 1 Q Before it comes out of the ground? 2 A Before it comes out of the ground. 3 Q So it has dry ice in the ground before you 4 put chains on it and yank on it? 5 A You are not allowed to pull it before it's 6 dry iced. 7 Q Does the dry ice force the vapors out of 8 the tank? 9 A Yeah, because they are heavier -- 10 actually, heavier than gasoline fumes or diesel fumes. 11 And they will push up all the oxygen and fumes out of the 12 tank. 13 Q So it displaces the gas vapors? 14 A Right. 15 Q And it stays that way until the dry ice 16 goes away? 17 A Yes. 18 Q That's why you use the dry ice, because 19 it's there for hours and hours? 20 A Yes. It takes a long time for it to go 21 away. 22 Some people use liquid or compressed 23 nitrogen, which is a non-flammable gas, which will work. 24 Or you can use CO2, compressed CO2, but not dry ice. But 25 the fire departments don't like it because they say it 240 1 can cause static electricity. So they like you to use 2 just dry ice. 3 Q So if you could go for two or three 4 minutes, prior to removing a underground storage tank, 5 what -- say I own an underground storage tank and I would 6 like you to remove it. I say, Mr. Thorpe, what do we 7 do? Go through the process, please. 8 A The first thing you do -- I always do is 9 get a contract signed with my client. From there, I go 10 to whichever county it is that we are working in and get 11 a tank closure packet, permit application. 12 And then I -- usually, in that packet -- 13 in fact, I have never seen one that didn't have it -- 14 they have a list of requirements, rules. Whether or not 15 they are going to let the tank go away as a recyclable 16 material or whether it's going to be required to be 17 hauled as hazardous waste; how many soil samples they are 18 going to want you to take; what they want you to take the 19 soil samples for; who the lab is going to be; who is 20 going to sample the soil and the water if there is water 21 available; how much dry ice are you going to use. If 22 there is contaminated soil, where is it going to go? If 23 it has to be hauled as hazardous waste, where is it going 24 to go? 25 All of this information is normally 241 1 included on a closure packet permit application. 2 Q Then you submit that to Environmental 3 Health? 4 A Yes, that goes to environmental health, 5 along with normally a fee. Sometimes it's per site or 6 per tank fee. 7 And then they approve it. And if they 8 have any questions of the contractor, they will call you 9 and say, Hey, we don't -- we got you -- can you clarify 10 this point here, Point A, Point B, whatever it is. And 11 you will go over it with them before they will issue an 12 approved permit package. 13 When they do approve it, then normally, 14 the procedure is to go to the fire department with your 15 approved closure packet, closure plan permit. And it's 16 not always the case, because in some cases the County 17 takes care of that. Like Sacramento County, you just 18 deal with the Environmental Health. They call the fire 19 department. San Joaquin County, it's not that way. San 20 Joaquin County, you deal with whichever the local fire 21 district is; or, in the City of Stockton, it's the City 22 of Stockton. 23 You take your permit in there and they 24 issue a permit, a fire permit. 25 Q Because there are Fire Code issues, 242 1 correct? 2 A Exactly. 3 Q Explosion, releases, those types of things? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Exposure to people? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Fire departments sometimes with 8 contaminated sites are really concerned about the way the 9 wind is blowing, things like that? 10 A They can be, yes. 11 Q So after all of that is done and you get 12 ready to pull the tank, you pull it without anybody 13 there? 14 A No. You have to normally give them all -- 15 all the agencies 48 hours notice that you are going to 16 pull. 17 So what we normally do is, if I am going 18 to do a job, start a job this week, we will figure out 19 when it is that we are going to pull the tank. And we 20 will call and make sure that the Environmental Health 21 representative can be there, that the lab can be there. 22 If we need a crane, that they can be there. That the 23 fire department can be there. That everybody can be 24 there. That my dry ice is lined up. That everything is 25 done. 243 1 All these steps are done before we even go 2 to the job so that we know we have got a target time and 3 date to pull the tank. 4 Sometimes you run into snags and you have 5 to change that. Then, with 48 hours' notice, you still 6 have time to call people and say, We hit something we 7 didn't know we were going to hit or the hole caved in or 8 whatever it is. And you can change and postpone your 9 date or move it up. Sometimes they go faster than you 10 think they were going to. You can move it up. Everybody 11 has to be notified at least 48 hours in advance. 12 Q It's my duty to put on what's called 13 exculpatory evidence, as well as evidence that shows that 14 crimes were committed. 15 Although you and I have a difference of 16 opinion on how you handled the underground storage tank 17 that was dropped off at your yard, could you talk about, 18 once it got to your yard, how it was handled and where it 19 ultimately went. 20 A Well, when it got to my yard, I told Bob 21 Womack that I wouldn't deal with the tank at all until he 22 notified the proper agencies and that I heard back from 23 them and found out how they wanted me to handle the tank, 24 whether I was supposed to just cut the tank and use it 25 for scrap metal or whether or not it was going to be 244 1 handled as hazardous waste. Pardon me. 2 Since we didn't know if it had been rinsed 3 or not -- when Mr. Irey came, he called me the day or two 4 after that we -- I had talked to Bob Womack and the tank 5 got to my yard. And he and Mr. Hall came to my yard, and 6 we looked at the tank. And I took the UL labels off and 7 gave them to him. 8 And I remember asking him, how do you want 9 me to handle this? And he -- I believe that he said, you 10 better handle it as hazardous waste. 11 Well, really -- we really didn't have any 12 choice to do it that way because the tank hadn't been 13 rinsed. And that was be probably the safest and easiest 14 way to do it. That's why I -- well, I tested it before 15 that. We tested it again before we hauled it. 16 Q You hauled it as hazardous waste? 17 A Yes, I did. Under manifest. And there is 18 a copy of it right -- 19 Q It's marked Grand Jury Exhibit Number 20 what? 21 A Sixteen. 22 Q Okay. Before you came here today at 2:00, 23 you showed up at the District Attorney's office? 24 A Yes, I did. 25 Q And you met with Russ Moore? 245 1 A Yes, I did. 2 Q You were given a copy of a bid by Keith 3 Tallia? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And you reviewed that bid? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And did that bid -- top left corner, was 8 that bid to? 9 A Dave Mason. 10 Q What date? 11 A Excuse me. April 13th, 1998. 12 Q So April 13th, 1998, about three weeks 13 before May 2nd, 1998? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q There is a bid from Mr. Tallia? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you don't know whether or not this was 18 put in the mail, so I will ask you general questions. 19 A Okay. 20 Q Page one, he talks about general 21 conditions, about what he is willing to do, Section 2-C. 22 A As required by law, triple rinse the tank, 23 yeah. 24 Q And then second line? 25 A Rinsate and sludge shall be pumped out and 246 1 transported by authorized firm. Basically, the same 2 thing I put in mine. 3 Q Okay. The second page, F, at the top. 4 A Will have State-approved firm remove 5 required soil and water samples from the tank hole. 6 That's the laboratory. They have to be California 7 State-approved lab. 8 Q H is a catch-all? 9 A Yes. All work to comply with all existing 10 local, State, Federal Codes, as well as safe and 11 generally accepted good construction practices. That 12 would be OSHA stuff. 13 Q Okay. Section 3 about special 14 conditions. 15 A Yeah. This proposal is based on not being 16 over 50 gallons of liquids in the tank to start the 17 project. That's basically the same thing that I do. I 18 give them -- 1,000 gallon tank, I give them about 10 19 gallons. 20 Q Okay. On page 4 of 5, he lists a bunch of 21 licenses. 22 A Yeah. California State Contractor's 23 License, AC21, C57, C10, C61, D40, C61. 24 Q Do you have most of those? 25 A No. We are AB and a hazardous. 247 1 Q But you have the hazardous? 2 A Yes. 3 Q So it takes an A and hazardous? 4 A A hazardous or B hazardous in special 5 circumstances. 6 Q What circumstance was the removal here? 7 A That wouldn't count. 8 Q Okay. Would you be required to have 9 Workmen's Comp insurance on this job? 10 A Yes, you would. 11 Q Even if -- 12 A If he is not paying them. 13 Q What if he is paying 'em? 14 A If he is paying them, yes, he would be. 15 Q Mr. Womack, if he was a contractor, would 16 have had to have Workmen's Comp insurance? 17 A On the people working there, yeah. 18 Q Even if they were working for free? 19 A If he wasn't paying them, if they were 20 members of the family or something working on that, why, 21 then he wouldn't have to have it. 22 Q But on everybody getting paid, he would? 23 A On anybody getting paid, yes. Except for, 24 like, the truckers, they are required to carry their own. 25 Q Okay. 248 1 A He probably would require a certificate of 2 assurance from them. 3 Q Okay. And then sales tax, employer ID, 4 Federal ID, EPA permit number. Do you need a permit 5 number for each tank? 6 A Yes, you do. 7 Q Do you call and get one each time? 8 A Right. 9 Q So every time you are going to pull a 10 tank, you need to get an EPA number? 11 A This is hazardous waste hauler's number 12 here. This is Keith Tallia's. But you need to call. 13 When you are going to do tank removal, you need to call 14 and get a temporary EPA number from the Department of 15 Toxic Substance Control for each tank pull. And that 16 goes on the manifest for the tank, if it's going to be 17 transported away, and also for the rinsate or piping or 18 any fuel might need to be hauled away or whatever. 19 Q And was $5,500 about the right range? 20 A Yeah, that's probably pretty close, yeah. 21 Q But for that, he would triple rinse the 22 pipe, triple rinse the tank and do the soil samples? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And normally, you sample under the 25 dispenser island? 249 1 A Depending how far away it is. They may 2 have to sample in the line. Normally, they want a sample 3 for every 20 feet of line. 4 Q If the dispenser island is 40 feet away, 5 one in the middle, one at island and some in the tank? 6 A Yes. Normally, depending how big the 7 dispenser island was, if it was three pumps, they might 8 require two under the island. 9 Q Is it much more difficult to determine 10 where to sample after the dispenser island is missing in 11 action? 12 A Pretty tough, yeah. 13 Q Same thing with piping? 14 A I would think, yeah. Well, you could 15 guess. 16 Q We have Fire Code, hazardous waste, 17 hazardous material, OSHA, water pollution. Anything 18 else? Workmen's Comp maybe? 19 A Workmen's Comp maybe, yeah. 20 Q Mr. Thorpe, we have known each other quite 21 some time; is that correct? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q What do you think about people that pull 24 tanks on weekends? 25 A Well, as a contractor who has to go 250 1 through all the bells and whistles and jump through the 2 hoops and do all those things, it's awful hard for guys 3 like myself to compete when we have to do all these 4 things to have somebody go bootleg a tank out. 5 I don't want to see anybody have a hard 6 time. I realize there's financial hardships. I don't 7 know what the situation is here. But when I had to spend 8 the kind of money that I had to spend to do our 25 tanks 9 and go into the business, I don't want to see anybody to 10 not have to spend that kind of money. 11 I mean, everybody should have to be on the 12 same plain. And if it costs that much to do the job, 13 then you should have to pay it, whatever it is. You got 14 to bite the bullet and do it if you are going to be in 15 the business or if you are going to have the tanks or 16 whatever it is. That's part of having them. That's part 17 of being in business. You have to be on the same plain. 18 Q But when do you a job, you have a lot 19 better idea of where the contaminated soil went and what 20 contamination exists at the facility? 21 A I have to. That's part of the job. 22 Q That's also -- in your mind, is that a 23 reasonable way of determining how much contaminant is 24 there? 25 A Yeah. If, like, you were going to dig 251 1 up -- say this is a thousand gallon tank. Over the top 2 of that thousand gallon tank, normally buried three to 3 four feet deep, you are looking at about 20 yards of 4 material. And depending on whether or not you had a line 5 leak or a spill or whatever, contaminant levels in that 6 could be from nothing to very contaminated. Just 7 depends. 8 When you dig it out, you should -- it 9 should go off to the side, either on plastic or onto 10 blacktop or cement or something, or concrete, so that you 11 can -- you can sample it and determine whether or not 12 it's contaminated or not. 13 Q Instead of blending it in with all of the 14 other soil? 15 A Yeah. 16 Q You made a comment earlier about -- not 17 during this testimony, but in your pre-interview with 18 Russ Moore, that the tank could have popped out of the 19 ground. There were too many workers standing on the 20 tank. 21 What is that about? 22 A That tank was in water. And an empty 23 tank -- if anybody has ever been fishing, had a bobber, 24 if you push it under water, when it's empty, it pops 25 out. And that's very -- I am very surprised that tank 252 1 didn't pop out of that water like a cork. 2 Q What types of things would have had it not 3 pop out? 4 A Well, you could have -- if it was me and I 5 was doing that job, I would have probably put the backhoe 6 bucket at least on top of it and chained it to the 7 backhoe bucket to be sure that it didn't pop out. 8 Q If it had material in it, would it have 9 popped out? 10 A Well, full, no. Half full, maybe not. 11 Quarter full, it could have. I have seen 10,000 gallon 12 tanks roll. 13 Q Okay. You were contacted by Mr. Womack 14 through a relative of Mr. Womack's? 15 A Oh, no. I met Bob Womack through a 16 relative of mine several, ten years ago. And we were 17 just starting into the business. 18 And Bob called me about two weeks before 19 all of this took place and came down to see us. He said, 20 I got a problem. He explained to us what -- that he was 21 having this trouble about this tank. 22 Q "Us" being whom? 23 A My brother and myself. 24 Q Okay. And he explained it to you? 25 A Yeah. 253 1 Q Told you about his troubles? 2 A Right. 3 Q You told him what? 4 A He asked me if I could help him. If he 5 found the tank, if I could help him dispose of the tank 6 the way it's supposed to be done. 7 Q Two weeks before the tank showed up, he 8 asked, If I found the tank, could you help me? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you told him? 11 A Yes, that I could do it. 12 Q Okay. And then he meets with our office. 13 And does he call you again? 14 A He -- well, he -- I talked to him the day 15 that he delivered the tank. And then I talked to him 16 after I delivered the tank to Erickson Environmental and 17 told him how much it was going to be. 18 He wrote me a check for the balance, and I 19 sent him a copy of the manifest and a copy to you and a 20 copy to Mr. Hall, copy to Dave Mason. 21 Q When the tank showed up at your business, 22 you knew it was coming. Did he call you and tell you -- 23 A No. I didn't know it was coming, Dave. I 24 saw the tank when I was going to work on -- I don't know 25 whether it was Monday or Tuesday. I don't remember. And 254 1 the tank was on a two-wheel trailer being pulled by a 2 dark colored -- the reason I say dark-colored is because 3 I am color blind. And dark colors, green, blue, black, 4 dark red, at a distance, to me, look the same color. So 5 I don't know exactly what color it was. It was dark. 6 It was probably an '80s model, I would 7 think between '81 and '84. '57 Chevrolet or GMC pickup 8 was pulling an old two-wheel trailer. The tank was 9 either strapped or roped -- I don't remember -- down to 10 the trailer. Bob Womack was parked in front of him. 11 Q Before you get there, I want to ask you a 12 couple of questions. 13 A Okay. 14 Q Although we have known each other a long 15 time and you have been very helpful on cases in the past, 16 it took you quite some time before you told Investigator 17 Hall that Bob Womack was present when the tank showed 18 up. 19 Just what is your gut on why you kind of 20 were slow in providing information to Paul? 21 A I felt sorry for him. He was having a -- 22 this has really been a big deal for him. I just felt 23 sorry for him. I didn't know what to do. 24 Q Okay. And then you thought about it a 25 while, you told us? 255 1 A Told you I am not going to jeopardize my position 2 or company's reputation for anybody or anything. I have 3 everything to lose and nothing to gain. 4 Q Therefore, Bob Womack was there when the 5 tank -- 6 A Bob Womack was there when the tank was 7 delivered to my yard, yes. 8 Q Was Bob Womack in the same truck? 9 A No. He was in his car. 10 Q Did he call you on the car phone ahead of 11 time? 12 A No. 13 Q A big Lincoln? Or do you remember? 14 A A gold car. Don't remember what it was. 15 Q The truck shows up? 16 A They were there together. 17 Q You off-loaded it? 18 A I told him -- I didn't want him to dump it 19 out in the street. So I told him, Pull it into the yard. 20 I walked over and got on my backhoe. By the time I got 21 over to the trailer, they had it untied. 22 We put a chain on it. I lifted it up. I 23 took it over to the west side of my yard and set it 24 down. And by the time I turned around, the guy in the 25 pickup was leaving. The only thing I remember hearing 256 1 him say was, I am glad to be rid of that tank. 2 I don't know who he was. I didn't -- I 3 never talked to him. 4 Q Before the tank showed up at your yard, 5 you and Bob Womack talked about an advertisement going in 6 the newspaper. He told you how many places he put this 7 ad? 8 A Yeah, Bob -- when we were talking to him, 9 he was telling me about the problem that he was having. 10 And he said, I don't know who I gave the tank to. I have 11 to try and find it. I am going to put an ad in the 12 paper. And he said, I am going to post hand bills. 13 He showed me a little -- oh, I don't 14 know -- two by three ad that said, reward for tank. I 15 don't remember what the exact words were. And that's 16 what he told me. 17 Q So he was down at your place showing you 18 what he was going to post? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q And then just a couple, three days later, 21 shows up? 22 A No. It was about two weeks. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Yeah, it was about two weeks after that 25 happened. 257 1 Q And I think Womack's records -- and I 2 don't have them in front of me. I apologize. 3 Hypothetically, Mr. Womack thinks he paid you 400 cash 4 plus 1,000? 5 A That's exactly -- yes, that's right. He 6 gave me a deposit that day with the tank when he dropped 7 the tank off. And then I have the other. That looks 8 like the check, yeah, for the difference. 9 Q This is just a copy of a check 3903, Jim 10 Thorpe Oil, 1,150 and it says, "Bob draw" at the bottom 11 line? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Was that sent to you in the mail? 14 A No. He gave it to me. 15 Q 9/16, He came back down? 16 A He was there at the yard. Came and wrote 17 me a check. 18 Q You saw him sign it? 19 A Yes. In my office. 20 Q So Grand Jury Exhibit 17, signature, 21 Robert Womack. 22 This has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 23 5. 24 Did you see Bob Womack hand any money to 25 the guy in the truck? 258 1 A No, sir. 2 Q Did you see him hand him a check? 3 A No. 4 Q Did he tell you he paid the guy? 5 A I don't remember him telling me, Dave. 6 Q This is dated -- Grand Jury Exhibit 5, 7 dated 9/7, which is about the date -- before this is 8 over, I will figure out what day it got to Mr. Thorpe's 9 yard. 10 At the bottom left corner, can you read 11 that? 12 A "For tank reward." 13 Q And it's signed by the same guy? 14 A Right. 15 Q Did Bob Womack tell you he had the tank 16 the whole time? 17 A No. 18 Q Did he tell you he paid himself for the 19 reward? 20 A No. 21 Q Did he tell you who KRL was? 22 A No. 23 Q Showing you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 6, 24 middle of the blow-up of the photo. 25 A Yeah, that looks like the thing that he 259 1 had. 2 Q The little reward tag? 3 A Yeah. 4 Q Mr. Thorpe, are there any questions that I 5 forgot to ask you -- I withdraw that question. I will 6 ask it a different way. 7 A I don't know, Dave. 8 Q Are there any other violations of the law 9 that we have not covered related to underground storage 10 tanks that you can think of at this time? 11 A Not -- not that I can think of. I think 12 we probably went over it pretty well. It's just that 13 I -- I told you what I saw. 14 Q Okay. And your brother Richard was 15 present the first time Womack came down? 16 A My brother Marty. 17 Q I apologize. 18 And Womack gave this hypothetical, What if 19 I find the tank? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q Did you think that was kind of an 22 interesting hypothetical? 23 A I don't... 24 Q You don't know? 25 A I don't know. I didn't know if he had the 260 1 tank or not. He said, If I can find the tank, can you 2 help me? 3 Q Okay. 4 A And I said, Yeah. But I am not doing 5 anything illegal. And when it gets here, if it gets 6 here, I want you to call the authorities right away. 7 And I reiterated that when the tank showed 8 up. I said, I am not touching it or doing anything with 9 it until you call the powers that be and tell 'em that 10 the tank is here and they tell me how they want me to 11 handle it. 12 MR. IREY: Okay. At this point, I have no 13 further questions. Members of the Grand Jury can write 14 down questions, I read them on the record. And then you 15 could answer them. Okay? 16 THE WITNESS: No problem. 17 Q BY MR. IREY: Have you removed any 18 underground storage tanks in Amador County? 19 A I don't remember that I have, no. 20 Q Was there a possibility that the tank 21 could have been ruptured and exploded by the excavation? 22 A Yep, it's possible; but not very likely. 23 Q Because? 24 A It's possible. It was a double-wall tank, 25 fiberglass coated. An operator with the expertise that 261 1 that guy shows in that video is not going to rupture that 2 tank. It's possible, but not very likely. 3 Q But 40-hour training would prevent most of 4 these issues from coming up because the tank wouldn't 5 have been handled this way ever? 6 A Ever. That's right. Correct. 7 Q What is the LEL? 8 A Lower Explosion Limit. 9 Q And that let's you know? 10 A That measures the amount of petroleum 11 hydrocarbon vapor in the tank. And there is 100 percent 12 explosion level; and there is 10 percent explosion level, 13 which tanks have to be under before you can pull 'em. 14 And that's what the dry ice is for. That's why you rinse 15 them. That's why you dry ice 'em, to take the explosion 16 level down under the 10 percent. 17 Q I think this is two questions. If it's 18 not, I will return it and we can ask them again. 19 When you received the tank, had the tank 20 been dry iced? 21 A I don't have the foggiest idea. 22 Q Was there dry ice in it when it showed up? 23 A No. 24 Q Did Mr. Womack get an EPA number? 25 A No, not that I know of. 262 1 Q Whose tank was it? 2 A I got the EPA number. 3 Well, I -- I think it's Dave Mason's, but 4 I am not sure. 5 Q The owner of the -- 6 A The owner of the property. That's who the 7 tank belonged to. 8 Q And that's who is supposed to get the 9 permits? 10 A That's -- the law says he is responsible. 11 Q So you don't get permits for just anybody 12 who says, I am thinking about buying property? 13 A No. 14 Q You make the owner? 15 A The owner of the property is the 16 responsible party unless they have contractually agreed 17 that they would be responsible for an underground tank or 18 tank system or whatever it is. It's the owner of the 19 property is the ultimate responsible party. 20 Q And you get that in writing before you 21 would do it, if you would do it? 22 A Yeah. Normally, yeah. 23 Q I am going to ask this question. If I am 24 asking it incorrectly -- no. I will ask it how it's 25 written. 263 1 Proposal was made to Dave Mason. Did you 2 give a proposal to Mr. Womack? 3 A No, no. I told him anything I would do 4 for him would be on a T&M. 5 Q Which means? 6 A Time and Material. 7 Q Because it wasn't an entirely --? 8 A No. All I cock doing was handling the 9 tank. 10 Q You weren't doing excavation and renting 11 cranes and sampling? 12 A Exactly. 13 Q By State law, is it requirement somebody 14 from authority be on site during the removal? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Regardless of tank size? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Where is the tank now? 19 A It's at -- it's been destroyed. That's 20 what that series -- and I forgot what exhibit was, but 21 that's -- it was taken to Erickson Environmental in 22 Richmond. They are a licensed facility to destroy 23 tanks. 24 MR. IREY: Does someone have that exhibit? It's 25 the text. It's attached to that Dave Mason letter from 264 1 November 12th. 2 THE WITNESS: That's the manifest. 3 Q BY MR. IREY: What would have been an 4 average cost to remove this tank? 5 A I would think that Tallia's estimate of 6 $5,500 was a fair estimate you would -- on that tank 7 there, it would require three soil samples probably and 8 one ground water sample and a line sample, at least one, 9 and then maybe two at the pump island. Disposing of the 10 tank was about $1,500. I would think that that was a 11 very fair proposal. 12 Q Is it possible that the tank still had 13 significant amount of fuel inside while it was being 14 excavated? 15 A Very possible. 16 Q I'm sorry. I am going to ask the full 17 question, because I read it -- 18 A I'm sorry? 19 Q I read it wrong. 20 Is it possible that the tank still had 21 significant amount of fuel inside while it was being 22 excavated and that prevented it from popping up? 23 A Well, it's possible. It could have had 24 some in there, yeah. It's -- that's possible. 25 Q Even -- 265 1 A I didn't look in there. I don't know. 2 Q Even when you vacuum out a -- when you 3 recover the fuel prior to closing an underground storage 4 tank, is there residual fuel left? 5 A Normally, yeah. What they usually do, if 6 there is a significant amount of fuel left in the tank, 7 you have your -- your distributor, supplier, somebody 8 come and pump out. Because it's usable fuel. There is 9 no need to waste it. So they would pump it out with a 10 truck and pump it into a truck and haul it away and use 11 it, deliver it, use it up. 12 And then they normally get down to within 13 an inch or two of the bottom of a tank. 14 Q So then one or two inches of fuel at the 15 bottom of the tank? 16 A Yes. 17 Q That has to be handled? 18 A As hazardous waste. With a rinsate, yeah. 19 Q So tanks aren't empty? 20 A Never. 21 Q And if they are empty, as far as liquid 22 fuel, then there are -- 23 A Vapors. 24 Q Which are? 25 A Explosion, inflammable. 266 1 Q Percent reading of fuel tank when this 2 tank was removed? 3 A I don't have any idea. 4 Q That was May; and you didn't see the tank 5 until September? 6 A I didn't see the tank until September. 7 When I saw it, it was dead. There was no fumes left in 8 it. 9 Q It had been out somewhere all summer? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q How far could water and fuel -- how far 12 could the water and fuel be in the soil? 13 A Well, depends on what the ground water 14 gradient is there and how much fuel there is in the 15 water. The source could be -- I would think that the 16 source of the fuel that was in that water was not coming 17 from this tank installation. I would think that the 18 source of that fuel was probably from one when the old 19 tanks were there. 20 Q Or the single-walled piping? 21 A It could very well have been, yeah. 22 Q Because it didn't have -- I can't testify. 23 If it didn't have double-walled piping and 24 had single-walled, it could have been any of the joints? 25 A Any of the joints. 267 1 Q Dispenser island? 2 A Could have been anywhere. 3 Typically, when you have a leak like that, 4 it will run down the -- if it's leaking at the pump, it 5 will run down the pipe and run back down the pipe towards 6 the tank. 7 Q Hypothetically, let's say you turned off 8 your electricity at the gas station. Can you monitor 9 your interstitial space on a double-wall tank? 10 A It depends on whether or not they have a 11 battery or powered -- normally, they have a backup 12 battery or something in the annular spaces. So if there 13 is a leak, it can still go off. 14 Q If you took all the gasoline out of a tank 15 because you are not going to use it until it eventually 16 gets pulled, are there issues, such as temporary closure 17 or explosion or those types of things have to be dealt 18 with? 19 A What they want you to do is seal the tank 20 off. And if you are going to temporarily close it, I 21 think you can temporarily close it, up until this year, 22 for up to a year, by just sealing it off and capping, 23 taking the dispensers off the pump island and capping the 24 pipes where they come out of the ground. 25 MR. IREY: I will read this into the record and I 268 1 will explain why he can't answer it. 2 In your opinion, was the law broken the 3 way it was handled? You can't answer that. That calls 4 for a legal conclusion. 5 I think he pretty much covered the laws 6 that apply to appropriately handling it. If that person 7 wanted to write the question down a little bit different, 8 I would be happy to ask it another way. 9 Q BY MR. IREY: I am going to add "if you 10 know" to the front of this question. 11 If you know, why did Womack and Mason 12 decide not to use Keith Tallia's services? 13 A I don't have the foggiest idea. 14 Q Did you ever ask Mason, Why did you get a 15 bid? 16 A No, sir, I did not. 17 Q So you never really hammered him? 18 A No. 19 Q You hammered Womack, you told me once? 20 A Well, I said, Wouldn't it have been easier 21 to get a contractor to do this? 22 And he said, Boy, yeah. Hindsight is 23 20-20. 24 Q Didn't you tell him he broke a lot of 25 laws? 269 1 A Well, I said, yeah, you are -- your rear 2 end is hanging out there quite a ways. In so many words. 3 Q Who did okay Thorpe's handling of the 4 tank? 5 A Well, Bob Womack is the one I was working 6 for. He paid the bill. But I did not do anything with 7 the tank until after I talked to Mr. Irey and Mr. Hall. 8 Q Who did Womack call, if you know? 9 A He -- well, he called me after. But he 10 didn't call me before. He just showed up that one day 11 and told me he was having a problem. And then he showed 12 up with the tank. 13 Q So until mid August, you didn't hear from 14 May to mid August? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you know that an underground storage 17 tank had been pulled up there? 18 A No. I didn't have any idea. In fact, 19 that station used to belong to a guy whose name was Al 20 Burk. It was one of my dad's favorite stories, because 21 my dad was with the oil company -- it's a long story. 22 Q But your dad knew the station? 23 A Yes, we knew the station. Yes, we knew 24 the station very well over a long, long period of time. 25 Q Any other... 270 1 How many card lock stations do you -- 2 A I lease it to Van De Pole Enterprises from 3 our yard. 4 Q Van De Pole Enterprises cost us an hour 5 earlier today. 6 Do you know Mr. Van De Pole? 7 A Very much. I know Ronnie very well, yes. 8 Q Is there a safety perimeter required 9 around the excavation site? 10 A Most of the time, yeah. I would think 11 there probably should have been a fence up around it, 12 it's so close to the street and sidewalk. Or at least 13 barricaded it or something. 14 Q After the excavation is in place before 15 the sample results come back, do people often leave that 16 open? 17 A Yes, they do. Sometimes you want to find 18 out whether or not you need to dig out more or you have 19 to get rid of the soil or whatever. And it costs more if 20 you have to go back and dig it out again. So the best 21 thing to do is put a fence around or barricades, 22 depending on where it is. 23 Believe me, these people that are leaving 24 these holes open for months -- we have all seen the 25 service stations -- are not doing it because they want 271 1 to. There is contamination things involved. 2 MR. IREY: Any other questions? 3 There's an admonition. 4 THE FOREPERSON: You didn't ask -- I had a fourth 5 question on mine. 6 MR. IREY: Okay. 7 THE FOREPERSON: I was curious about. 8 This one here right here. 9 Q BY MR. IREY: What is a double-walled -- 10 THE FOREPERSON: Was it? 11 Q BY MR. IREY: Was it a double-walled 2,000 12 gallon split tank? 13 A Yes. 14 Q That's considered two tanks? 15 A Yes. Well, yes, it is in San Joaquin 16 County, anyway. They would consider that two. Although 17 it's one vessel, they would consider it two tanks. 18 Because it has two sets of pipes, two risers, two fills, 19 two everything. 20 So what they probably would do -- and this 21 is speculation on my part -- is, instead of requiring 22 just two samples for that vessel, if you were going to 23 remove it, which is normal, one at each end, they would 24 require three, one at each end and one out of the middle 25 of the hole, two soil samples. 272 1 MR. IREY: Okay. Any other questions? 2 We are getting really close to five. 3 There has been a witness waiting. I think she will only 4 take five, eight, nine, ten minutes. 5 Mr. Thorpe, thank you for your time. 6 There's an admonition. 7 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished not to reveal 8 to any person except as directed by the Court what 9 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 10 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 11 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 12 appearance before the Grand Jury. 13 This admonition continues unless and until 14 such time as a transcript of the Grand Jury proceedings 15 is made public. Violation of this admonition is 16 punishable as contempt of court. 17 This does not prevent you from discussing 18 the matter with your attorney, if you have an attorney 19 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 20 Grand Jury. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 THE FOREPERSON: If I could get you to sign and 23 date that I read that to you? 24 Thank you very much. 25 THE WITNESS: You bet. 273 1 MR. IREY: If it's marked, please leave it. If 2 it's not... 3 This is Linda Van Vleck. 4 THE FOREPERSON: Remain standing. Raise your 5 right hand. 6 You do solemnly swear that the evidence 7 you shall give in this investigation now pending before 8 this Grand Jury shall be the truth, the whole truth and 9 nothing but the truth, so help you God. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 12 (TIME NOTED: 4:52 P.M.) 13 ---oOo--- 14 LINDA VAN VLECK 15 Called as a witness herein by the People, 16 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 17 and testified as follows: 18 EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. IREY. 20 Q Ms. Van Vleck, could you spell your last 21 name for the court reporter and members of the Grand Jury. 22 A Capital V, as in Victor, A-N. Capital V, 23 as in Victor, L-E-C-K. 24 Q And who is your current employer? 25 A Amador County. 274 1 Q And in what capacity are you so employed? 2 A I am the Code Enforcement Officer or they 3 call it Investigative Assistant. 4 Q You are the Code Enforcement Officer? 5 A Yes. There is only one. 6 Q Okay. And we just have a few questions 7 for you. 8 Are you familiar with the underground 9 storage tank removal at 505 Sutter Street? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did you put together the investigatory 12 packet? 13 A Yes, I did. 14 Q Most of the documents in here were 15 information you gathered from others, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q As far as actual investigation on this, 18 you went to the landfill? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And what did you do at the landfill and 21 why did you go there? 22 A I was directed to go to the landfill to 23 take photos of any piping that was brought down to the 24 landfill, and also to talk to people down there if they 25 had -- what they knew about the case. 275 1 I spoke to Paul Davenport and I asked him 2 about the pipes. And he said, yes, there were some pipes 3 brought in, but they -- he believed that they were pipes 4 that had been used above ground, because they had paint 5 on them, like, either bumpers for cars to keep vehicles 6 from bumping into gas tanks and things like that or into 7 the building or signs. 8 And I asked him if they would be around 9 there, that I could take photos. And he says, Oh, no. 10 About two or three days after they arrived, they were 11 sent out. 12 Q And the reason you went to the landfill 13 thinking the pipe would be there was what? 14 A I was looking for basically maybe some 15 underground piping and stuff like that. 16 Q Had you been told by anybody that that is 17 where the piping was taken? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Who told you that? 20 A I believe it was Ron Hall thought that 21 would be the case, that it might have been taken down 22 there, due to the receipts that were recovered from the 23 landfill. 24 Q So you weren't present when Robert Womack 25 or Dave Mason said that everything went to the dump? 276 1 A I was at the land use meeting at the 2 county building. I want to say that was on the 14th? 3 Q Okay. 4 A Am I correct on the date? 5 Q Yes. 6 A Mr. Womack indicated that. 7 Q So Mr. Womack on the 14th in your presence 8 indicated that the piping went to -- or that all of the 9 debris from the disposal -- 10 A Right. 11 Q -- went there? 12 A That was my understanding. 13 Q Okay. So that is the limit of your actual 14 investigation, although you put the packet together, 15 correct? 16 A Correct. 17 Q When you put the packet together, you 18 named three names as potential suspects; is that correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Robert Roland Womack. 21 A Right. 22 Q Roland Ernest Womack and David Sterling 23 Mason? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And why did you name at that time Roland 277 1 Ernest Womack? 2 A It was information that I had that he was 3 the potential -- either the property owner or potential 4 property owner because of some kind of a land deal that 5 he and Mr. Mason were in. 6 Q His name was on all the paperwork? 7 A On paperwork that I had seen, yes. 8 Q On the demolition permit? 9 A Yes. 10 Q On the after the fact underground storage 11 tank permit, if you know? 12 A Yes, yes. I know what you mean. 13 Q Do you know anything about the business 14 KRL? 15 A Yes. 16 Q So in the last few minutes here, could you 17 describe your experiences with KRL and Bob Womack on 18 other enforcement issues. 19 A KRL was -- I was told by Mr. Womack, and 20 this was probably, I want to say, maybe around 1995. I 21 could be wrong with the year. But I was told that he had 22 purchased -- KRL had purchased property that was 23 called -- the piece of property that's called the Bossi 24 Ranch. And it's on Privitelli Road. 25 And I asked him at that time, Who is KRL? 278 1 And he said, Well, that's my children and property was 2 purchased for my children. And that's who the 3 partnership is, is KRL was the children. 4 And I think that there was one of his -- 5 one of the children were left off. And he kind of 6 mentioned a little bit about that. But the other three 7 kids were on the property. 8 Q So you guys were just chatting, and he 9 said, I kicked one of my kids out of the partnership? 10 A I can't -- I don't recall if he kicked 11 them out or if he just wasn't included at that time. 12 Q So three kids on, one kid off, was what he 13 explained to you? 14 A That was my understanding, yes. 15 Q You were dealing with Mr. Womack on the 16 Bossi Ranch on what issues? 17 A He had -- there were grading violations 18 and there were other issues, too, with the former owner 19 of the property. 20 Q Let's stop with grading issues. 21 What type grading issues? Grading without 22 a permit? 23 A Grading without a permit and burying 24 vehicle parts that was alleged. 25 Q Okay. You said other issues? 279 1 A Other issues. 2 Q At the ranch? 3 A Okay. There was an illegal trailer there 4 that had been brought in. And the former owner's son was 5 living in it, stepson. 6 Q A shade tree mechanic? 7 A Yes. There was also alleged that there 8 was a chop shop going on in the large shed. But this was 9 all only alleged. 10 Q It was a chicken ranch at one point? 11 A Yes. It was a very long shed. 12 Q So that -- is that how you met Mr. Womack? 13 Or did you know him before that? 14 A I believe that was. 15 Q Okay. And Mr. Womack was pointing fingers 16 at one individual and the other individual was pointing 17 fingers at Mr. Womack? 18 A That's correct. It was quite a mess. 19 Q Who was Mr. Womack pointing fingers at? 20 A Mainly Mr. Malquest, who was a stepson to 21 Mr. Bossi. 22 Q Okay. And who was pointing fingers at Mr. 23 Womack? 24 A Mrs. Bossi and Malquest. 25 Q Okay. And when Mr. Womack was pointing 280 1 fingers at Malquest -- how do we spell that? 2 A M-A-L-Q-U-E-S-T. 3 Q Okay. Was that regarding any hazardous 4 materials? 5 A Yes. He was -- Mr. Malquest was alleging 6 that oil and gases -- I wasn't actually involved in that 7 particular part of it. It had not been turned over to 8 Code Enforcement. Environmental Health actually was 9 working the complaint at this part. 10 Q Okay. So Environmental Health 11 investigates and, at some point, it gets to Code 12 Enforcement? 13 A That's correct. When they throw up their 14 hands and say, We can't -- we are not getting anywhere. 15 We need you to take the case either to court or to see if 16 you can get some compliance on a case. 17 Q Okay. And at some point in the last 18 couple of weeks, you told me that you had to write 19 somebody a citation or clean up an abatement or a notice 20 on the Bossi Ranch? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you said it wasn't Mr. Womack? 23 A No. I felt it kind of strange at the 24 time. But being that the children were named on the -- 25 as the property owners or a part of the corporation of 281 1 KRL, that then I had to cite each one of his children. 2 And he was there when I was citing them. 3 Q So Mr. Womack is standing there. Mr. 4 Womack, in your opinion, is running the ship? 5 A Oh, definitely. It was very obvious to me 6 that he was -- he was the -- yeah. 7 Q You had to write his kids tickets? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Any other problems or issues with Mr. 10 Womack that you are familiar with, other than 505 Sutter 11 Street and the Bossi Ranch? Any grading permits 12 elsewhere in the county? 13 A Not that -- just hearsay, and I -- I can't 14 recall. 15 Q If -- okay. That's all from me for Mr. 16 Womack. The Grand Jurors can ask you a couple in a few 17 minutes. 18 I have a couple on solid waste. If the 19 debris went somewhere other than the dump, are there 20 certain rules and requirements in Amador County that have 21 to be met? 22 A Depending if it was over -- there's a junk 23 ordinance that states that you can only have 200 square 24 feet of junk on your property. Then it has to be 25 screened. 282 1 Q But can you move construction demolition 2 debris from one property to another without any 3 requirement, grading permits, excavation permits, that 4 type of stuff? 5 I will withdraw the question and ask it 6 differently. Can you take demolition debris from a gas 7 station and move it onto your property? 8 A I don't have knowledge of that. 9 Q Can you take demolition debris from a gas 10 station and take it to Georgia Pacific? 11 A I don't have information on that either. 12 MR. IREY: Okay. That's fine. Are there any 13 questions from the Grand Jurors of Ms. Van Vleck? 14 Okay. Ms. Van Vleck, at this point, any 15 member of the Grand Jury can write down a question. I 16 read it. And if it's an appropriate question or a legal 17 question, not inappropriate question, then I can ask it. 18 This calls for a legal conclusion. 19 THE FOREPERSON: I wasn't sure. 20 MR. IREY: But I will ask -- yeah, this is a 21 legal conclusion. Sorry. I can read it into the record 22 after Ms. Van Vleck leaves. 23 Any other questions? 24 Would we like it cooler in here tomorrow 25 or warmer? 283 1 The Grand Jury Foreman has an admonition 2 for you. 3 THE FOREPERSON: You are admonished -- 4 MR. IREY: There is a question. Sorry. 5 THE FOREPERSON: I am sorry. 6 Q BY MR. IREY: How did Mr. Womack react 7 when his children were issued citations? 8 A I believe, during the time that I was 9 working with him, trying to bring the property into 10 compliance, I told him that that would be one of the 11 options I had, basically, holding over his head to -- in 12 order to bring the property into compliance. So I said, 13 Since your name does not appear on the partnership, then 14 therefore, i would have to be citing your children. And 15 I could tell that, when I said it, it kind of bothered 16 him. I really felt that it bothered him a bit. 17 But then actually, we did get down to that 18 and I did cite 'em. 19 MR. IREY: Other questions? Mr. Foreman. 20 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. You are admonished not to 21 reveal to any person except as directed by the Court what 22 questions were asked or what responses were given or any 23 other matters concerning the nature or subject of the 24 Grand Jury's investigation that you learned during your 25 appearance before the Grand Jury. 284 1 This admonition continues unless and until 2 such time as the transcript of this Grand Jury 3 proceedings is made public. Violation of this admonition 4 is punishable as contempt of court. 5 This does not prevent you from discussing 6 the matter with your attorney if you have an attorney 7 advising you with respect to your appearance before the 8 Grand Jury. 9 If I could please get you to sign and date 10 that I just read that to you? 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 MR. IREY: The question -- I think it calls for a 13 legal conclusion. Do you feel that all parties involved 14 have sufficient knowledge of laws regarding removal of 15 underground tanks? 16 You will be instructed at the end -- you 17 have an instruction packet now -- on what the legal 18 standard is for what the level of knowledge is and how to 19 make a determination. That particular question is for 20 you to decide based on the instructions and all 21 evidence. Not just what was given today, but is given 22 over the next several days. 23 No question is a bad question. Nobody 24 should be hesitant to ask. I think that your 25 participation is the most important thing. 285 1 As I told you when this began this 2 morning, this is more of an investigatory one than many I 3 have done in the past, because usually, you know one 4 through three was done by this and this person and this 5 one. A lot of people had their hands in the pot. And 6 it's for you to make a determination on who did what when 7 and how that can be resolved. 8 Sir. 9 GRAND JUROR: They mentioned core -- drilling 10 for core samples. But it was done by someone. I never 11 caught the name. It was just been done -- 12 MR. IREY: Okay. 13 GRAND JUROR: -- on the property. Will we get 14 into how far the contaminant is in the soil? 15 MR. IREY: I can't answer that. But there will 16 be an Environmental Health person testifying tomorrow or 17 Monday who you will be able to ask all of these questions 18 from. And he was mentioned by Mr. Israel. Okay. I will 19 try. 20 GRAND JUROR: In the very beginning this morning, 21 did you say that Robert Womack and David Mason may not be 22 or will not be testifying? 23 MR. IREY: There is a jury instruction -- and I 24 can't do it verbatim. The answer to your question is 25 everybody has a right not to testify who possibly is a 286 1 named defendant. 2 At this time, it is my understanding that 3 neither one of those individuals will be testifying. But 4 we added two people since Monday. So I think I said not 5 very likely or strongly unlikely. I don't know. I 6 probably wouldn't say strongly unlikely. But I don't 7 think. At this time, I don't know. 8 But if the Grand Jurors decide two days 9 from now they would really like me to ask him again to 10 come in -- again, you are going to get a jury instruction 11 that says, he doesn't have to or they don't have to or 12 she doesn't have to, whoever you decide is the one who is 13 on the paperwork. 14 Is that helpful? 15 GRAND JUROR: So they are not going to be called 16 in and invoke their Fifth Amendment rights? 17 MR. IREY: I can't answer that. If my last 18 answer was read back, which I am not asking for -- 19 essentially, they would have every right in the world to 20 invoke their Fifth Amendment right if they chose to, if 21 they testified. 22 But as a target, a named person on the 23 proposed indictment, I do not have the ability to 24 subpoena them in. So they have not received subpoenas in 25 this case. 287 1 GRAND JUROR: It says here in the indictment that 2 we have right here that Robert Roland Womack and Dave 3 Sterling Mason, III are the plaintiff. Here on the thing 4 it also says Womack, Sherrill and Mason. 5 Is Sherrill also a Plaintiff on this 6 case? 7 MR. IREY: I can't answer that. But that's an 8 excellent question. 9 GRAND JUROR: Other -- 10 MR. IREY: You will hear from Mr. Sherrill in the 11 next few days. When those were typed up, which was 12 earlier this week, there probably would have been more 13 people on the list than there are now. 14 GRAND JUROR: Second part of the question. I 15 understand what's going on. The reason I knew the 16 answers to that question, you also mentioned Mr. Sherrill 17 made a deal. 18 MR. IREY: I mentioned that because you are going 19 to get a jury instruction that says, you know, if people 20 are cutting deals with the prosecution, you might want to 21 think about what that is. 22 But what happened there is whatever the 23 testimony said. That's the answer to that. 24 GRAND JUROR: Okay. 25 MR. IREY: You will get more testimony on that. 288 1 THE FOREPERSON: Are we here -- when all is said 2 and done and we deliberate, do we have to find both these 3 parties? 4 MR. IREY: You will get instructions on that. 5 Okay. Thank you. 6 I think we accomplished most of what we 7 tried to get done today. 8 GRAND JUROR: One more question. 9 GRAND JUROR: Sorry. Are we still basically on 10 schedule? Or are we running a little behind now? 11 MR. IREY: We are doing quite well. We are 12 probably -- we are doing okay. Close to quite well. We 13 did ten witnesses today, and I had planned on doing 13. 14 We are okay. I think we can go off the record now. You 15 have to do your end of the day admonitions. 16 THE FOREPERSON: Then we will go off the record. 17 Before we go off the record, would it be 18 obvious that none of us should -- I mean, we have to 19 drive by it, but none of us should stop? I mean, is 20 that -- 21 MR. IREY: If I was someone that was giving you 22 advice, I would probably say, yes. Please don't stop. 23 THE FOREPERSON: Please don't stop. Okay. 24 MR. IREY: I will show you pictures soon. 25 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. May sound like a stupid 289 1 question. 2 MR. IREY: No questions are stupid. It's better 3 to be cautious. 4 THE FOREPERSON: My fellow Grand Jurors, you are 5 admonished -- the Grand Jurors are admonished that they 6 are not to form or express any opinions about this case 7 or discuss it among themselves until the Grand Jury 8 receives the case for deliberation. In addition, no 9 inspection of evidence should be conducted without the 10 permission of the Foreperson and on the advice of the 11 prosecuting attorney. A violation of this rule could 12 result in a charge of contempt against a Grand Juror who 13 would investigate or view any matters with regard to this 14 case without the entire body of the Grand Jury. 15 And we stand adjourned. 16 (Whereupon, the proceedings recessed for the day at 5:15 p.m.) 17 18 ---oOo--- 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 290 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ) ss. 4 COUNTY OF TUOLUMNE ) 5 6 I, JAN L. BENEDETTI, CSR, hereby certify that I 7 was duly appointed and qualified to take the foregoing 8 matter; 9 That acting as such reporter, I took down in 10 stenotype notes the testimony given and proceedings 11 had; 12 That I thereafter transcribed said shorthand 13 notes into typewritten longhand, the above and 14 foregoing pages being a full, true and correct 15 transcription of the testimony given and proceedings 16 had. 17 18 19 20 21 22 _____________________________ 23 JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG 24 25