IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF AMADOR ---oOo--- The People of the State of California) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) No. 98-0767 ) ROBERT ROLAND WOMACK, DAVID STERLING ) MASON III and MARK SHERRILL, ) Defendants. ) _____________________________________) PROCEEDINGS HELD BEFORE THE GRAND JURY NOVEMBER 12, 1998 VOLUME I APPEARANCES: For the People: DAVID J. IREY Deputy District Attorney Reported by: JAN BENEDETTI-WEISBERG, CSR No. 4643 2 1 ---oOo--- 2 WITNESS INDEX Page 3 RON HALL Examination by Mr. Irey 30 4 ELAINE WILLIAMS 5 Examination by Mr. Irey 112 6 RICHARD ESCAMILLA Examination by Mr. Irey 124 7 RICK HILDERMAN 8 Examination by Mr. Irey 148 9 MICHAEL ISRAEL Examination by Mr. Irey 154 10 RICHARD VINSON 11 Examination by Mr. Irey 175 12 TOM BAMERT Examination by Mr. Irey 185 13 EMMETT RETTAGLIATA 14 Examination by Mr. Irey 206 15 RICHARD THORPE Examination by Mr. Irey 219 16 LINDA VAN VLECK 17 Examination by Mr. Irey 273 18 ---oOo--- 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 E X H I B I T S 2 Exhibit No. Description Ref. 3 1 Videotape 34 4 2 Videotape 70 5 3 Videotape, 8 millimeter 35 6 4 Cassette Tape 79 7 5 Blow-up of check 60 8 6 Reward Tag 258 9 7 Photograph 105 10 8 Photograph 106 11 10 Land Use Committee Minutes 114 12 12 Weight Tag Copies 208 13 14 Certificate of Tank Destruction 234 14 15 Tank Numbers 221 15 16 Tank Hauling Manifest 244 16 17 Copy of check 257 17 ---oOo--- 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 JACKSON, CALIF., THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 12, 1998, 9:38 A.M. 2 BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF AMADOR COUNTY 3 ---oOo--- 4 THE FOREPERSON: Good morning, everybody. What 5 we are going to do is, Janine is going to take role. I 6 guess, verbally. You give role verbally. Then when 7 that's done, then I will swear in our court reporter. 8 And then the Deputy District Attorney is going to have a 9 few comments to clear up any -- any confusion as exactly 10 what we are going to do here as a Grand Jury. 11 So Janine, if you want to go ahead and 12 start. 13 THE SECRETARY: Okay. Get my papers in order 14 here. 15 Signify by saying present. 16 (Redacted.) 17 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 18 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted), present. 19 (Redacted.) 20 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Yes. 21 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 22 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 23 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 24 (Redacted.) 25 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Oh. 5 1 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 2 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 3 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 4 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXXXX: Present. 5 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 6 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 7 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 8 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Present. 9 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 10 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 11 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 12 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Present. 13 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 14 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 15 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 16 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXX: Present. 17 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 18 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 19 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 20 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: Present. 21 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 22 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Present. 23 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 24 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 25 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 6 1 GRAND JUROR XXXXXXXX: Present. 2 THE SECRETARY: (Redacted.) 3 THE FOREPERSON: Present. 4 THE SECRETARY: Thank you. 5 (Whereupon, the reporter was sworn in by the Foreperson. ) 6 THE FOREPERSON: David. 7 MR. IREY: Okay. Hello, Members of the Grand 8 Jury. My name is David Irey. I am a Deputy District 9 Attorney in this case. After I give a couple of 10 introductory comments, then the Grand Jury foreman 11 will -- our first break. 12 (Interruption in proceedings.) 13 GRAND JUROR: Could you spell your last 14 name, please. 15 16 MR. IREY: I-R-E-Y. 17 As I was saying, after I give these brief 18 introductory comments, then it's pretty much in your 19 control. The Grand Jury Foreman and the Grand Jury 20 Secretary kind of control the breaks, the timing of 21 witnesses. I have a strong tentative schedule for the 22 witnesses. I try to follow that. 23 The Presiding Judge wanted me to at this 24 time remind all of you, you are not making a 25 determination of guilt of any individual, whether they 7 1 are currently named on the face of the proposed 2 indictment or whether you determine to add some people to 3 this list. You are just making a determination -- and I 4 will give you that jury instruction; it's part of your 5 long packet, about what you are making a determination on 6 after the proposed indictment is read. 7 There will be somewhere between 50 and 70 8 witnesses, but it will go very, very fast. As the Judge 9 explained to you, at this point, there is no 10 cross-examination of witnesses. I put on the evidence 11 and that's all I put on. In a normal jury proceeding, 12 the District Attorney has an argument at the beginning: 13 They did it; and at the end: They did it. In a Grand 14 Jury proceeding, you don't. 15 I might use witnesses to kind of bracket 16 what we will be presenting, but I won't tell you what the 17 facts will show; and at the end, I won't tell you what 18 the facts have shown. It's completely your determination 19 to make. That's the plus. 20 The other thing is that you do control 21 it. One thing that you are going to talk about on your 22 first break is the timing of how early we are going to 23 start, how late we are going to go. All of those things 24 you can determine. If you want to go six hours a day or 25 nine hours a day or ten hours a day, I will do whatever 8 1 you request and you require. 2 If it's hot in here, I will try to find 3 someone to cool it down. I think there probably should 4 be a way in the winter. It looks like those windows 5 open. 6 With that said, if -- as the Judge 7 explained to you, you can ask questions of any witness in 8 the case. I think at this point, I want to make sure 9 after the jury instruction is read that you understand 10 what level of proof you are making a determination on. 11 I have been told that numerous people have 12 come up to various people in the courthouse already and 13 discussed that they know some of the names, both 14 witnesses and/or maybe the named defendants. I think 15 that that's part and parcel a county of this size, a 16 population. My background is San Joaquin County and I 17 haven't had these types of issues before. 18 However, the Judge also said that she 19 picked a fine Grand Jury and she is very comfortable with 20 your ability to make decisions on these matters. 21 So with that said, I have to mention 22 this. Apparently, another newspaper article came out. 23 The Judge asks you guys all about that in her voir dire. 24 There was a letter to the editor that came out. If that 25 has influenced or anybody strongly believes it has 9 1 influenced them or they have read it, you need to let me 2 know and we need to talk to the Presiding Judge right 3 away about that. 4 Maybe I will leave the room and you can 5 poll the grand jurors to see if those particular 6 newspaper articles may have influenced anybody at this 7 time. 8 Additionally, I heard that there were 9 radio comments on this case today. I didn't hear them, 10 but I heard that it played several times this morning. 11 So with that said, if the radio affected 12 your ability to be a fair trier of fact, the Grand Jury 13 Foreman needs to know, and then I need to know. And I 14 will get the Presiding Judge and we might not start quite 15 as quickly. 16 The packets I gave you are long. The case 17 has some complexity. The way we are going to try to 18 present it is short -- short witnesses, a lot of them. 19 And hopefully, it will go quite well. I told the Grand 20 Jury Foreman I didn't want to tell you guys this, but I 21 think we will be done next Thursday, instead of 22 Thanksgiving holiday week. At this time, my last witness 23 is scheduled for Thursday morning. 24 However, again, I also told the Grand Jury 25 Foreman that this case has the possibilities of having 10 1 the Grand Jury, themselves, as you have every right in 2 the world, to request additional information, whether you 3 want business records and have our office go get them or 4 whether you want additional witnesses called. You pass 5 that information along to the Grand Jury foreman. You 6 have every right to request it. I can go and try to 7 obtain that information. 8 There are certain privileges, of course, 9 attorney client privileges and spousal privileges and all 10 of those things. You can't say, Why didn't X's wife 11 testify? But we can work around that as long as it 12 complies with the law. 13 Again, this is your show. If I am sitting 14 in the wrong spot, if I am speaking too quickly, let me 15 know. Usually, when we do these, we have a U-shaped 16 table so everybody is just as close to the witness as the 17 next person. It looks like the jury box is kind of 18 small. You might not want to sit there two or three 19 hours at a time. You might want breaks every hour and a 20 half. It's your call. 21 Again, I told the Grand Jury Foreman, 22 12:30 is a nice time to break because that's after a 23 lunch rush. I don't know if there is a lunch rush in 24 Jackson. But that puts us about three hours into it. If 25 we push it up and start at 8:30, maybe 11:30 is a good 11 1 time for lunch. 2 At this time, Mr. Foreman, the proposed 3 indictment probably needs to be read into the record by 4 you. 5 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 6 MR. IREY: At the end of the first package are 7 two -- the last two pages are duties of the Grand Jury 8 and evidence warranting an indictment. That's the 9 standard. And I think that that probably needs to be 10 read into the record. 11 At that point, if anybody has any 12 questions about what the Grand Jurors are deciding here. 13 And then we will be ready to call the first witness. 14 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. So now you mentioned 15 about the newspaper articles and the radio articles. Is 16 that something that we -- I should poll now? 17 MR. IREY: I probably should walk out. I don't 18 know what questions the Judge asked you. You might want 19 to ask parallel questions. Did any of you hear them? 20 Did you read them? Was anybody influenced by them? 21 One thing that I think the Judge probably 22 made perfectly clear, these are secret proceedings. And 23 so to talk about what happens in court today, what 24 evidence you see today, the Judge has given you the 25 appropriate admonition on that. I think it's really 12 1 important in this case. Because things are showing up 2 out in the newspapers and radio that just don't make 3 sense, as far as, where did that information come from? 4 So hopefully, you will be able to keep 5 this tight. We will try to do it in six days. And after 6 that, ten days after the arraignment, if you decide to 7 indict, everything becomes public record. Then you guys 8 can chat about Paragraph 7 or the 17th witness or 9 whatever you want. If you even care. 10 So with that said, I will step out and you 11 make the determination. 12 THE FOREPERSON: You can stay -- 13 MR. IREY: I don't want to. Radio today, 14 newspaper yesterday. 15 (Whereupon, pages 13 - 14 were reported and transcribed, but are under separate 16 confidential cover.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 1 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were held in the presence of the Deputy 2 District Attorney:) 3 THE FOREPERSON: As I read this, these charges 4 here -- is that what we call them? They are charges? 5 Is that the correct term? 6 MR. IREY: Proposed charges. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. And a juror wants to know 8 where a specific location is that's listed on here. 9 What's the proper procedure then for answering their 10 question? Do they write that down or do they -- 11 MR. IREY: Where an actual physical location is? 12 THE FOREPERSON: Let's say we have an address I 13 am going read in a few seconds. 14 MR. IREY: This is the answer to the question. 15 The Judge probably admonished you -- 16 Presiding Judge, Judge Harlan, probably admonished you 17 not to go out and do independent investigation. So if 18 the Grand Juror Member wanted to write it on a piece of 19 paper, then probably every single witness in this case 20 would be able to answer that question and I would be 21 happy to ask it. 22 I cannot testify, so I can't answer that 23 question. But the investigator -- that could be you have 24 your first question to the witnesses. The investigator 25 would be happy to answer that question, where the 16 1 location of the address is. 2 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Then would you like me to 3 read -- it looks like four and somewhat of five pages 4 here then, correct? 5 MR. IREY: I think what you do is, you read page 6 9 and page 10. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 8 MR. IREY: What's called page -- okay. Then 9 there is -- how to put this? The computer automatically 10 numbered these pages. Pages 11 and 12 are missing from 11 your copies, for legitimate reasons. That's probably the 12 safest. 13 So 9 and 10, and then the last two pages, 14 duties of the Grand Jury and evidence warranting an 15 indictment. 16 THE FOREPERSON: So I don't read these? 17 MR. IREY: No need to read the first pages, but 18 the Grand Jury Members are free to read those. 19 THE FOREPERSON: Nine and 10 and the last two, 20 which are numbered, it looks like -- well, they are not 21 numbered, but we could call them 15 and 16. Okay. 22 So let's show, at 9:57, that I am going to 23 read the statement of charge and admonition. 24 Okay. Foreman's Statement of Charge and 25 Admonition on Prejudice. To be read to the Grand Jury 17 1 after the -- she has been sworn. Okay. 2 The matter to be presented today involves 3 as possible defendants Robert Womack and David Mason, 4 III, and the possible charges. 5 Can everybody hear me fine? 6 THE GRAND JURY: Yes. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Count I, a violation of Section 8 182(a)(1) of the Penal Code, conspiracy to commit a 9 crime, a felony. 10 Count II: A violation of Section 11 25189.5(b) of the Health and Safety Code, disposal of 12 hazardous waste, a felony. 13 Counts III, IV and V, each a violation of 14 Section 25189.5(c) of the Health and Safety Code, 15 transportation of hazardous waste, a felony. 16 Jan, am I going too fast? 17 THE REPORTER: No. 18 THE FOREPERSON: Counts VI and VII, each a 19 violation of Section 25189.5(d), as in David, of the 20 Health and Safety Code, treatment or storage of hazardous 21 waste, a felony. 22 Counts VIII and IX, each a violation of 23 Section 136.1(c)(2) -- that's the number 2 -- of the 24 Penal Code, dissuading a witness, a felony. 25 Count X, a violation of Section 632(a) of 18 1 the Penal Code, eavesdropping, a felony. 2 Count XI, a violation of Section 3 5650(a)(1) of the Fish and Game Code, water pollution, a 4 misdemeanor. 5 The witnesses will most likely be: Bill 6 Admire, Tom Bamert, Lou Broline, Stephen Buckley, Curt 7 Campbell, John Carstensen, Thorton Consolo, Randy Cunha, 8 Richard -- excuse me. Richard Escamilla, Brian Drake, 9 Robert Fourt, Bart Gillman, Fred Graves, Tim Hall, Ron 10 Hall, Nick Hernandez, Tony Hernandez, Rick Hilderman, 11 Michael Israel, Phil Joses, Miriam Mason, David Mason, 12 III, David Mason, Doug Mondani, Louie Podesta, Gary 13 Poggio, E. Michael Quinn, Emmett Rettagliata, Gary Rouse, 14 George Ryan, Jenise Schwartz, Connie Sherrill, Keith 15 Tallia, Richard Thorpe, Roy Toms, Nick Toms, Linda Van 16 Vleck, Richard Vinson, Jim Walshaw, Larry White, Elaine 17 Williams, Bill Wolin, William A. Wolin, Damian Wolin, 18 Robert Womack, Roland Womack, Mrs. Robert Womack, Nadine 19 Womack, Luke Womack, Larry Womack, Kimberly Moore, Jeff 20 Taylor, Gary Clark, John Henney, Russell Moore, Gary 21 Urzik, Jake Strom, Gary Sherrill, Sherry Martin, Tina 22 Wolin, Mark Sherrill, Mike Womack, Lance Hayden, Gary 23 Clark, Robert Van De Pole, Mary Nell Bryant. 24 Any member of the Grand Jury who has a 25 state of mind in reference to this matter or any of the 19 1 parties involved which will prevent him from acting 2 impartially and without prejudice to the substantial 3 right of the parties will now retire. 4 Okay. Let the record show that nobody 5 left the room. Okay. Yeah. Let the record indicate 6 that none of the jurors have withdrawn. 7 Okay. Now you may proceed, the D.A. 8 MR. IREY: That's the Deputy D.A. That would be 9 me. 10 If the Foreman could read the last few 11 pages? 12 One thing, before the Foreman begins on 13 that, two of the witnesses listed, David Mason, III and 14 Robert Womack, more likely than not at this point will 15 not testify. 16 You will be given a jury instruction about 17 right against self-incrimination and no need to infer 18 that that means anything whatsoever. When this was 19 getting drafted, it was just everybody that might testify 20 or possibly defendants so the Presiding Judge could let 21 you know the names. 22 Additionally, I think after the Presiding 23 Judge picked the jury, we may have added Robert Van De 24 Pole and Mary Nell Bryant. I think, rather than having 25 me walk out the door, if that has any large importance to 20 1 any of the individuals here, please let me know, and then 2 we will talk to the Presiding Judge. 3 For instance, if it's a sister or 4 whatever, the exact same questions the Presiding Judge 5 went through with you, we can do that. Those two names I 6 think are probably new since Monday. Okay. 7 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Now, you are right. Some 8 of these names were not on that original list. I 9 personally recognize the last name Van De Pole, but not 10 the first name. 11 MR. IREY: Think about the series of questions 12 you were asked on Monday. Think about your answers to 13 them and whether or not the Court may have asked you 14 additional questions about your relationship. If that is 15 the case, then maybe we need to talk to the Presiding 16 Judge. 17 Again, as I informed the foreman right 18 before we started, you may decide to add some witnesses. 19 People may mention names I have never heard or my 20 investigators have never heard and you might think to 21 yourselves, That person would have been an eye witness to 22 whatever these allegations are. We really want to hear 23 from them. And so that -- at some point, the Grand 24 Jurors may add additional names to this. And that's 25 going to be throughout the next week and a half. 21 1 So with that said, does that help answer 2 your question? 3 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Can I think about it for 4 a second? I am... 5 MR. IREY: It's your shot. You can think about 6 it for days if you need to. 7 GRAND JUROR XXXXX: No. 8 MR. IREY: I didn't say you if you want to. I 9 said if you need to. 10 THE FOREPERSON: May I at this time call a 11 meeting with the Presiding Judge and yourself and 12 myself? Can I do -- 13 MR. IREY: The answer is, yes. But let's go 14 ahead and check if any other members of the Grand Jury 15 have additional thoughts or concerns along those lines. 16 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. With that said, anybody? 17 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: (Redacted.) I have a 18 question. These people on the witness list. These are 19 people that are going to testify on what they have seen 20 in the matter of the case pending? 21 MR. IREY: I cannot answer that. 22 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Okay. 23 MR. IREY: They more likely than not have some 24 level of information regarding the case in front of you. 25 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: All right. 22 1 MR. IREY: But I can't say one witness has a lot 2 of information; the other has no information. 3 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: That's not really what I am 4 asking. 5 MR. IREY: Did that answer your question? 6 GRAND JUROR XXXXXX: Yes, it did answer my 7 question. 8 MR. IREY: Regarding just the two new witnesses, 9 any issues? Okay. Well, I think before we take that 10 break, if you could read the last two pages at this 11 time. 12 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen of 13 the Grand Jury, you have heard all the evidence and now 14 it is my duty to instruct you on the law that applies to 15 this case. I will read the instructions to you. You 16 will have the instructions in written form to refer to 17 during your deliberations. 18 You must base your decision on the facts 19 and the law. You have two duties to perform. First, you 20 must determine the facts from the evidence received in 21 the Grand Jury presentation and not from any other 22 source. A fact is something proved directly or 23 circumstantially by the evidence. 24 Second, you must apply the law that I 25 state to you to the facts as you determine them and, in 23 1 this way, arrive at your decision. 2 You must not be influenced by pity for an 3 accused or by prejudice against him or her. You must not 4 be influenced by mere sentiment, conjecture, sympathy, 5 passion, prejudice, public opinion or public feeling. 6 Both the People and the accused have a 7 right to expect that you will conscientiously consider 8 and weigh the evidence, apply the law and reach a just 9 decision regardless of the consequences. 10 Okay. This is the evidence warranting 11 indictment. 12 Penal Code Section 939.8 states, The -- 13 quote. "The Grand Jury shall find an indictment when all 14 the evidence before it, taken together, if unexplained or 15 uncontradicted, would in its judgment, warrant a 16 conviction by a trial jury. 17 "The California Supreme Court has 18 interpreted the above to mean: There must be enough 19 evidence to support a strong suspicion or probability of 20 the commission of the crimes and the accused's guilt 21 thereof, for probable cause to indict. Probable cause 22 means such a state of facts as would lead a person of 23 ordinary caution or proof to believe, and conscientiously 24 entertain a strong suspicion of the guilt of the accused. 25 Reasonable and probable cause may exist, although there 24 1 may be some room for doubt." 2 MR. IREY: And again, before we take the 3 next break, that is something that the Presiding Judge 4 wanted to make sure you. Understood, it's a lower 5 standard than beyond a reasonable doubt. You are not 6 going to be convicting anyone of a crime. You are just 7 making a determination pursuant to this specific 8 instruction one way or the other. 9 You may decide some of the counts warrant 10 this; some of them don't. You may decide to add counts. 11 You may decide to add defendants. You may decide to drop 12 defendants. That's what the Grand Jury is required to do 13 and this is one of the instructions that will help you do 14 that. 15 With that said, I do need to contact the 16 Presiding Judge for the Foreman. We will try to make it 17 as quick as possible. These types of hitches in the 18 system occur. And then we will start with our 19 testimony. Okay. Thank you. 20 (Recess taken from 10:12 to 10:15 a.m.) 21 MR. IREY: I think we should decide schedules and 22 timing. You guys can talk among yourselves. 9:30 every 23 day? 24 THE FOREPERSON: 9:30. We have a lot of people 25 that come from up country. 9:30. We will break for 25 1 lunch at 12:30. We will try to dismiss probably about 2 5:00. 3 MR. IREY: That didn't take long. 4 GRAND JUROR: We have one-hour lunch or half-hour 5 lunch? 6 MR. IREY: However long you want to. 7 GRAND JUROR: He mentioned 12:30 to 1:00. 8 MR. IREY: I think it should be 12:30 to 1:30. 9 What else could we do? Basically, play 10 cards. Is that legal? They will be using you as the 11 court reporter. I don't know whether it's going to be 12 easier to you to move. The Judge is making those 13 decisions. 14 THE FOREPERSON: When a witness is done, do you 15 then ask for written questions? Is that what you do? Or 16 do I direct those to you? 17 MR. IREY: I will ask at the end of each witness. 18 If I forget, I have no problem. Chime in. Say, I have a 19 question. 20 Does any member of the Grand Jury have a 21 question? The packets of information I passed out, you 22 are free to read. However, you need to know that, at the 23 end, I am going to read it all. That's probably the most 24 boring part of the case, but the most important part. I 25 will have to read the proposed indictment and every 26 1 single jury instruction in. So it's not as good as 2 playing cards, but maybe... 3 GRAND JUROR: These are turned in at the end of 4 each day? 5 MR. IREY: Correct. Nothing will leave the Grand 6 Jury room admitted into evidence or notebook you have 7 written on or proposed indictments. This stuff is all 8 secret. 9 We have just learned -- and I am going to 10 chat with the Presiding Judge about it. Apparently, a 11 photographer is out there taking pictures of you 12 wonderful folks. I will -- I wanted to let you know. 13 GRAND JUROR: Is that allowed? 14 MR. IREY: The Court Reporter can only write down 15 one person at one time. So everybody is free to chat at 16 this part, because we are just chatting about 17 formalities. But once the evidence begins, sometimes I 18 accidentally speak over the witness. And the same thing 19 with conversations back here. 20 At this point, we are still on the 21 record. We can go off the record if you want and do the 22 informal stuff. I have no problem with that. Maybe 23 that's best. 24 THE FOREPERSON: Yeah. If we are just chatting 25 amongst ourselves, why don't we do that until we come 27 1 back from the Judge. 2 MR. IREY: Once we go off the record, I won't be 3 able to chat about this reporter issue. So I wanted to 4 let you know -- that's why I stayed on the record. Let 5 you know I will talk to the presiding Judge. She may 6 come in and pass on information. I have not had to deal 7 with that issue because it's usually a secret room type 8 of thing. There are a lot of people in the courthouse. 9 Apparently, there are fewer people in the 10 courthouse and more flash bulbs than we might wish. So 11 once the foreman and I go to chat with the Presiding 12 Judge and the court reporter, I will also bring up that 13 issue. And I will either have her brief you on her 14 determination or -- First Amendment is important, but I 15 don't know if they need to be taking pictures of Grand 16 Jurors. Okay. 17 We are off the record now? 18 THE FOREPERSON: Yes. 19 (Off-record discussion.) 20 MR. IREY: Back on the record for a moment. 21 False alarm. A photographer was loading camera and was 22 told not to take pictures. And the bailiff is going to 23 pay close attention to that. So you should not have to 24 have your pictures taken. 25 And the Judge is going to, at her first 28 1 break between cases, see you and you. You, the Foreman, 2 and the Court Reporter, for the record. 3 Off the record. 4 (Discussion held off the record.) 5 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were held at 10:42 a.m:) 6 MR. IREY: Ron Hall is our first witness. He is 7 going to come in. He is about to testify. Most of what 8 he is going to show -- most of what he is going to do is 9 show videotapes this morning. So I am going to go ahead 10 and have him come in. 11 THE FOREPERSON: That's fine. 12 MR. IREY: For instance, if the Foreman, for some 13 reason, needs to be off of the jury, then you might have 14 to watch the videos twice. At least we will get 15 started. 16 So we can have our chairs. I will go 17 ahead and call Ron in. My guess is, Murphys law, the 18 presiding Judge will stop us in about five seconds. 19 THE SECRETARY: So we have 19. 20 MR. IREY: Our first witness is District 21 Attorney Investigator Ron Hall. 22 Again, we are starting this a little 23 awkwardly, but I am sure we will pick up the pace soon. 24 I am going to ask Mr. Hall a few questions, then we are 25 going to do the videotape part. And then later today or 29 1 tomorrow, Mr. Hall will come back and testify about -- he 2 will tell you what he will testify to. That's fine. 3 Anyway, Mr. Hall, could you spell your 4 last name for the record, please. 5 THE WITNESS: H-A-L-L. 6 THE FOREPERSON: Do I swear him? 7 MR. IREY: Yes. Thank you. 8 THE FOREPERSON: Do I raise my hand, too? 9 You do you solemnly swear that the 10 testimony, evidence you shall give in this investigation 11 now pending before this Grand Jury shall be the truth, 12 the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 13 God. 14 THE WITNESS: I do. 15 (TIME: 10:44 A.M.) 16 ---oOo--- 17 RON HALL. 18 Called as a witness herein by the People, 19 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, was examined 20 and testified as follows: 21 MR. IREY: Again, Mr. Hall, for the record, your 22 last name. 23 THE WITNESS: Hall, H-A-L-L. 24 //// 25 // 30 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. IREY: 3 Q Mr. Hall, who is your current employer? 4 A Amador County District Attorney's Office. 5 Q And for how long have you been employed 6 there? 7 A One month short of three years. 8 Q Prior to that, were you in law 9 enforcement? 10 A Yes. 11 Q In what capacity? 12 A Deputy Sheriff with Amador County since 13 1984. 14 Q Do you have any specialized training in 15 order to be a peace officer? 16 A I have several trainings over the years I 17 have been a law enforcement officer, which include the 18 POST basic academy. I possess all three certificates by 19 POST, the basic, the intermediate and the advanced. I 20 have been trained in evidence, narcotics. All kinds of 21 trainings, various different tasks throughout the 22 department. 23 Q Are you currently assigned to the case 24 that's being presented to the Grand Jury? 25 A Yes. 31 1 Q And how long have you been so assigned? 2 A I have been on this case since early part 3 of June of '98. 4 Q And although you have an extensive 5 background, how many hazardous waste cases have you 6 investigated? 7 A This is my first. 8 Q Okay. And since the beginning of June, 9 has a large proportion of your time been spent 10 investigating this case? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Have you interviewed numerous witnesses? 13 A Yes, I have. 14 Q More than 50 or 60 witnesses? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Have you participated in any search 17 warrants? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Have you participated in any inspections 20 of properties? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Have you taken photographs? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Have you seized evidence? 25 A Yes. 32 1 Q Some of the evidence you have seized we 2 will put on the next time you are before the Grand Jury. 3 However, because we are in the middle of a break and we 4 want to get the Grand Jury started, did you bring with 5 you any videotaped evidence today? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did you bring with you any audio tapes 8 today? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 Q Did you bring both originals and 11 duplicates of some of these? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did you bring an original tape that was 14 seized with the search warrant? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Did you bring a videotape that was 17 provided to you by Mr. Robert Womack? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did you bring an audio tape that was 20 seized during a search warrant at the house of Mr. Robert 21 Womack? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Briefly, could you describe what 24 circumstances led you to be in receipt of the original 25 tape given to you by Mr. Robert Womack? 33 1 A Yes. I had interviewed Bob Womack. He 2 had come to the office asking to be interviewed. At that 3 time, he had mentioned that his wife had videoed the 4 demolition of the gas station. I asked him for that 5 videotape. 6 Approximately one month later, on August 7 25th, '98, he brought a copy of that tape and he laid it 8 on the counter. The clerk then brought it to me. 9 Q So Mr. Womack -- when you say Bob Womack, 10 is that Robert Roland Womack? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q He is in his early sixties? 13 A Yes. 14 Q You requested a tape, correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Approximately a month later, he brought 17 the tape to you? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Did you bring that tape to court today? 20 A Yes, I did. That is the tape. 21 Q Okay. This is a VCR tape, VHS tape? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And on the front jacket of it, is that 24 your handwriting? 25 A Yes. 34 1 Q And what handwriting -- before I ask that 2 question, this has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 1 for 3 identification purposes. 4 Is that the original tape brought to you 5 by Robert Womack? 6 A It is. 7 Q That's your handwriting on the front 8 cover? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Could you read that into the record for 11 the Grand Jury. 12 A I marked on the front of the tape May 2nd, 13 1998. Video of demolition footage by June Womack given 14 to D.A. by Robert Womack 8/25/98. 15 Q You originally interviewed Mr. Robert 16 Womack on July 30th, 1998, if you recall? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q And if you don't recall because you have 19 interviewed so many witnesses, you can refresh your 20 recollection with your reports. However, we need to note 21 for the record and to the Members of the Grand Jury that 22 that's what you are doing, that you are not doing it off 23 the top of your head, that you are actually going back 24 and reviewing your records. 25 Prior to coming here to testify today, we 35 1 briefly discussed what we thought you might want to show 2 the Grand Jury, correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q And on this original tape given to you on 5 8/25/98, you think probably -- how should this evidence 6 be presented to the Grand Jury? 7 A By watching it on a VHS machine. 8 Q Do you want to go through it fast 9 forward? Is that the -- 10 A Yes. We can play this at fast forward, 11 because this video, I believe, to actually be cut short. 12 Q And you believe that based on another 13 video that you eventually seized? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And that video was 8 millimeter video? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And that's been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 18 No. 3; is that correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And you seized that where? 21 A I seized this from a rear bedroom of the 22 Robert Womack residence. 23 Q And this one on the front cover of Grand 24 Jury Exhibit No. 3 has handwriting on it. 25 A It says Station and Kids at Akido. 36 1 Q Was this Grand Jury Exhibit No. 3, the 8 2 millimeter videotape, something you were looking for in 3 the search warrant? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Why did you believe there was a second 6 video? 7 A I believe -- I was told by Robert Womack 8 that the original video was an 8 millimeter size and what 9 he had brought me was actually a copy. And so the 10 purpose of seizing this tape was to examine the original 11 and see if it in fact continued on longer into the 12 demolition of the gas station and if it contained more 13 information pertinent to the case. 14 Q Does the original videotape been marked 15 Grand Jury -- which has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit 16 No. 1, did it go to where the tank actually came out of 17 the ground? 18 A It had just started to be unearthed and 19 then the video went to an akido exhibition. 20 Q Did it appear to you -- how did that 21 transition appear to you? 22 A It appeared as if somebody had taped over 23 some original footage of the demolition. 24 Q Okay. Could you play that for the Members 25 of the Grand Jury, please. 37 1 A Sure. 2 Q And if possible, stop and identify people 3 who are on site that day. 4 A Okay. 5 Q This tape is approximately how long? 6 A This tape is approximately one hour long. 7 Q And fast forward, probably take about 8 fifteen minutes to go through it? 9 A Maybe less. 10 Q Thank you. 11 A Witness begins playing the videotape.) 12 Q There is an audio portion to this tape, 13 correct? 14 A Yes, there is. 15 Q But when you present the evidence on the 16 original tape which was seized, if the Grand Jury wants 17 to hear that part of the tape, then we will turn up the 18 audio on the television, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q But at this point, you are just going to 21 fast forward through? 22 A I will. The first person you saw walking 23 across the street was Robert Womack. That is Robert 24 Womack there. 25 Q Do you know what time of day that was? 38 1 A It was approximately 7:00 in the morning. 2 The person on the excavator machine is 3 William A. Wolin or we have called him Billy Junior. 4 That, again, is Robert Womack. 5 Q And this tape was given to you by Robert 6 Womack? 7 A That is correct. 8 Q And did he tell you who taped it? 9 A He told me his wife taped it. 10 Q And his wife being June Womack? 11 A Yes. His wife is June Womack. 12 Q To your knowledge, the City gives permits 13 to -- Mr. Hall, if you could stop the tape, please. We 14 are going to take our fourth break and we will be right 15 with you. 16 THE COURT: Good morning. 17 MR. IREY: Maybe if the members of the Grand Jury 18 could step out. We will leave the foreperson in with the 19 Presiding Judge. It will probably be three to five 20 minutes. 21 (Whereupon, pages 39 - 43 were reported and transcribed, but are under separate 22 confidential cover.) 23 24 25 39 1 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were held with Judge Harlan at 10:55 a.m.:) 2 3 MR. IREY: I don't know that I need to be in here 4 at all. We added two witnesses since you did your voir 5 dire. 6 THE COURT: He knows one of them? 7 MR. IREY: He may know one of them. I said, 8 Think of all the questions the Court asked you on Monday. 9 Go through them in on your head. 10 THE COURT: That's what we will do on the 11 record. We will see. We will call you back in a 12 minute. 13 MR. IREY: Thank you, your Honor. 14 (Whereupon, the Deputy District Attorney left the courtroom.) 15 16 THE COURT: Okay. We are outside the presence of 17 the other Members of the Grand Jury and everyone else, 18 except the Court Reporter and our Foreperson. 19 THE FOREPERSON: David Ray. 20 THE COURT: I have been informed they added two 21 more individuals to the list of witnesses and you may 22 know one or two. 23 THE FOREPERSON: I recognize the last name. It's 24 a very unusual last name, so... 25 THE COURT: What is the name? 40 1 THE FOREPERSON: Van De Pol. Van De Pol is a 2 company in Stockton that is a petroleum jobber, such as 3 the -- well, the -- Toms Sierra now bought out Mason Oil 4 some years ago. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 THE FOREPERSON: When you asked me to consider 7 the names and I did, all the names that were on the list 8 that I recognized, the company I worked for does not do 9 business with or, if we did, it wouldn't be any impact. 10 Like you said, we are not determining 11 guilt. I was just here to -- you know, to view the 12 evidence if I felt it was, you know, valid enough to hand 13 down an indictment. 14 When the name Van De Pol came up, Robert 15 does not ring a bell. But I am not sure if that is a 16 proper name and I have only known nicknames, such as 17 Marvin being the owner, there is Ron Van De Pol. There 18 is Tom, his brother, so -- and I didn't want to -- you 19 know, when I heard that, I thought, Well, maybe I better 20 let you know. 21 THE COURT: Well, the bottom line to this is, is 22 this a person that you solely do business with? 23 THE FOREPERSON: No. 24 THE COURT: All right. Do you feel that, even if 25 it is somebody that you think it is, that this would 41 1 somehow impair your ability to be fair and impartial? 2 THE FOREPERSON: No. Because as I think about it 3 now, the questions you asked just before that, I mean, 4 the Van -- Van De Pols I know would have no business ties 5 with these people involved here. And so at this point, 6 no. 7 I just wanted to go on record that I did 8 recognize that name, so that if something comes up later 9 on -- I mean, I am just being cautious at this point. I 10 don't know if I am being out of line or I shouldn't -- 11 THE COURT: No. I think that it's always 12 important to be prudent. That's what you are doing. But 13 at this point, you are not sure whether it's the person 14 you think it is. Is that correct? 15 THE FOREPERSON: That's correct. I mean, Robert. 16 I have never heard of a Robert Van De Pol. 17 THE COURT: Why don't we hang on for just a 18 minute and why don't we bring the District Attorney and 19 let's ask him some questions, just so that you can be 20 sure. 21 THE FOREPERSON: Okay. 22 THE COURT: We now have invited the District 23 Attorney to be present. 24 Would you state your name again, sir. 25 MR. IREY: David Irey, I-R-E-Y. 42 1 THE COURT: Can you explain who -- he indicated 2 that he may have some knowledge of a Robert -- well, he 3 is not sure at this point who Robert Van De Pol is. Can 4 you give me background. 5 MR. IREY: My understanding, he was a former 6 employee of Wolin and Sons, heavy equipment operator. 7 THE COURT: Does he have any connections with Van 8 De Pole in the petroleum business; do you know? 9 MR. IREY: It is the same spelling of the last 10 name. That business operates out of San Joaquin County. 11 I have no knowledge whatsoever if there's an overlap, 12 your Honor. He is -- he is a witness in this case that 13 we just learned about based on phone records. 14 THE COURT: And if you were to make an offer of 15 proof as to his testimony, it would be in connection -- 16 it wouldn't be as a petroleum expert? 17 MR. IREY: Absolutely not. It would be as a -- 18 THE COURT: Percipient witness? 19 MR. IREY: -- percipient witness, heavy equipment 20 operator, or lack thereof. 21 THE COURT: Thank you. 22 THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. 23 (Whereupon, the Deputy District Attorney left the courtroom.) 24 25 THE FOREPERSON: I feel comfortable. All the Van 43 1 De Poles are all in the family business. 2 THE COURT: So you feel comfortable that this 3 isn't the same individual that you felt it was. But is 4 it fair to say that, even if it was, it wouldn't affect 5 your ability to be fair and impartial? 6 THE FOREPERSON: No. 7 THE COURT: We have cleared that up. 8 What's the second problem? Is there a 9 second problem? 10 THE FOREPERSON: That was the only one. That 11 name came up. 12 THE COURT: Terrific. How do you like sitting in 13 the Judge's chair? 14 THE FOREPERSON: Everything is going fine. I 15 felt bad I had to stop it because, of course, I am just 16 concerned about, you know, everybody's feelings of how 17 long it's going to take. But everything is going fine. 18 THE COURT: Sounds good. Terrific. I think you 19 have done the right thing. And you can proceed. 20 Continue to find everyone on this Grand Jury is 21 qualified. If you would like to call everyone back in, I 22 will slip out and do what I am supposed to be doing. 23 THE FOREPERSON: We will let you go out first. 24 ---oOo--- 25 44 1 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were held in front of the Grand Jury at 2 11:02 a.m.:) 3 THE FOREPERSON: What we will do is, I will take 4 a head count real quickly, since we did have to leave the 5 room, make sure we have all 19 of us here. 19. Okay. 6 The record show that everybody made it back into the 7 courtroom or the room here. 8 MR. IREY: Mr. Hall is going to continue with his 9 showing of the tape at this time, I hope. 10 THE WITNESS: You will see one of the Jackson 11 police officers pull up. 12 Q BY MR. IREY: What was the date of this 13 tape, if you know? 14 A May 2nd, 1998. 15 Q Sometimes in the bottom right-hand corner 16 it showed shows a date different. 17 A It shows May 1. 18 Q Are you certain it was May 2nd? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What day of the week is that? 21 A This vehicle is Bill Wolin, Senior. He is 22 part owner of Wolin and Sons Construction. He pulls up, 23 turns around, and basically parks over here. 24 Q You are pointing to the right edge of the 25 screen? 45 1 A Yeah, up by the dental office, itself. 2 There is a driveway that runs behind the gas station into 3 this parking lot area. 4 Q Earlier one of the Grand Jurors, who 5 hadn't put it in writing, wanted to know where on Highway 6 49 was this business? 7 A This address was 505 Sutter Street, which 8 is also Highway 88/49. It's directly across the street 9 from Swenson's Shoes and Coast to Coast or what is now 10 True Value Hardware. 11 Q Directly due south of what? 12 A Directly due south, Roland's dental 13 business. This is now a one-way street to the west. 14 Q That's on the west side of Highway 88 and 15 49? 16 A West side of Sutter Street or Highway 49 17 and 88. 18 THE SECRETARY: Can we clarify Roland's 19 relationship? 20 MR. IREY: If we can pause for a moment, please. 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 22 MR. IREY: I will ask Mr. Hall to do that. I was 23 waiting for him to stop speaking. We all have to learn. 24 It's the room and everything else. However, if I fail to 25 ask any question, that's why you keep pads with you. I 46 1 will be happy to read that into the record and have Mr. 2 Hall answer the question. 3 This is a very informal atmosphere, and 4 that's a plus. But I do have to follow the rules. And 5 the rules state that, at the end of Mr. Hall's 6 testimony -- and we are going to again bring Mr. Hall and 7 Mr. Moore in two or three times, because we are trying to 8 fit 60 people plus your 20, 80 people's schedules all 9 onto a nice chart. So Mr. Hall will be here on more than 10 one occasion. Before he stops each day, I will ask him 11 the questions that you have. 12 Q With that said, and without asking to 13 have it put in writing, who is Roland? And could you 14 explain the Womack family tree, as you currently 15 understand it. 16 A Roland Womack, to my understanding, is the 17 oldest son of Robert and June Womack. 18 Q And Robert and June Womack live in what 19 town? 20 A They live -- they actually live in county 21 territory, but they list their address as xxxxx Ridge 22 Road, Sutter Creek. It's actually at the intersection of 23 Ridge Road, New York Ranch Road in county territory. 24 Q And Roland Womack has a profession? 25 A Yes. Roland Womack is a dentist. 47 1 Q In what town? 2 A In the town of Jackson, located at 511 3 Sutter Street, which is the lot directly to the north of 4 505. 5 Q Does Mr. Womack have any other children 6 that live in the area? 7 A Yes. He has two other sons, one currently 8 living in the area, a Luke Womack. 9 Q And where does Luke Womack work? 10 A Luke works for Owens Illinois in Ione. 11 It's a sand plant. 12 Q And his other son? 13 A Larry Womack, to my understanding, is in 14 the Marysville area at this time. And he has a daughter 15 named Kimberly who lives in Dixon. 16 Q "He" being Robert Womack? Robert Womack 17 has a daughter? 18 A Yes, Robert Womack has a daughter named 19 Kimberly. 20 Q He has four children that you know of? 21 A That I know of. 22 Q And one of them owns the dentist shop 23 adjacent to where this video is being taken, correct? 24 A Yes. That would be Roland. 25 Q And when you pointed out Bill Wolin, who 48 1 owns Wolin and Sons, is he commonly referred to as Bill 2 Senior? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And he has a son named? 5 A William A. Wolin. He has another son 6 named Damian. 7 Q William A. Wolin also goes by? 8 A Billy Junior. 9 Q So some people call Mr. Wolin's son Billy 10 Junior, but his true and correct name is William A. 11 Wolin? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Okay. Go ahead and start it. Fast 14 forward it, please. When I said "it," I meant the 15 videotape. 16 A Okay. 17 Q And now this was Saturday instead of May 18 1st because of what reason? 19 A The City of Jackson would not allow the 20 demolition during a week day because school was in 21 session and it's a danger. The school is -- directly 22 behind this area to the west is the junior high. And so 23 they didn't want this demolish to take place during 24 school session. So they wanted him to complete this on a 25 weekend. 49 1 Q You have spent hundreds of hours 2 investigating this case, Mr. Hall? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Have you ever seen a permit issued by any 5 agency to remove the underground storage tanks? 6 A No. 7 Q When I ask, have you ever seen one, that 8 meant have you ever seen a permit that was issued prior 9 to the removal of the tanks? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you at some time see what I term a 12 retroactive permit, a partial permit after the fact? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And who filled that out? 15 A David Sterling Mason, III. 16 Q And Mr. Mason, is he the president or 17 owner of Mason Oil Company, to your knowledge? 18 A Yes, he is. 19 Q And Mason Oil Company, to your knowledge, 20 was purchased by a different company? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And what company was that? 23 A Toms Sierra Oil. 24 Q And Mr. Mason has a child or several 25 children in the area also, correct? 50 1 A Yes. To my knowledge, he has three sons 2 in the area. 3 Q David Mason, III, goes by different names, 4 too, correct? 5 A That's true. There is the oldest son, 6 David Mason. We have started to call him David Mason, 7 IV, but he tells us directly that he is David Mason; not 8 David Mason, IV. He operates and delivers gasoline to 9 the various stations at Mason Oil or Toms Sierra 10 Services. 11 Q Some people might call David III David 12 Senior? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And some might call David Mason David 15 Junior, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q The sign out front on the right corner of 18 the screen at this time is a -- what business? 19 A This one here? 20 Q Yeah. 21 A This was a gas station. Mason oil is the 22 sign in the right corner. 23 Q Did your investigation at any point 24 determine whether or not there had been some tanks pulled 25 at that site legally in the past? 51 1 A Yes, there had been in the past. 2 Q Had there been a tank what's called closed 3 in place done legally at that site? 4 A Yes. 5 Q That was done during the ownership of 6 David Mason? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q III? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q That was in the late '80s and early '90s? 11 A Yes, it was. 12 Q So at this very site in the video we are 13 watching tanks had been dealt with legally in the past? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q In '88, there was both a City and County 16 permit, correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q City permit for the plumbing and 19 electrical? 20 A And the gas. 21 Q Hook-ups to do with underground storage 22 tanks? 23 A Yes. 24 Q But the County issued an underground 25 storage tank permit? 52 1 A That's correct. 2 This is Mark Sherrill. 3 Q What's Mark wearing? 4 A Levis and a green T-shirt and ball cap. 5 Q At that point in the video, there are 6 three people you have mentioned? 7 A Yes. Actually, there's four people I have 8 mentioned. 9 THE FOREPERSON: Can we see what he just laid 10 down there with the arm? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 MR. IREY: This is going to be extremely 13 difficult to do a timing of -- the person who asked the 14 question is the Grand Jury Foreman. Again, we are not 15 supposed to ask questions. We might want to realize this 16 videotape will be shown several times and each inspector 17 will be checking that. 18 At any time, and maybe on a break, we can 19 work that out, where we fast forward through it or I give 20 you the fast forward. That's the first question we have 21 after a break, we would be happy to do that. But for 22 efficiency, we will come up with a system. If somebody 23 wants to see something, maybe raise their hand and 24 everybody has a pat note: The last 30 seconds slow, 25 please. Or something like that. So we don't have to try 53 1 to find this and take an hour finding the spot. 2 This particular part -- I am not supposed 3 to testify. Okay. 4 Q Does this particular part have anything 5 to do with the actual removal of underground storage tank 6 to your knowledge, other than piping, Mr. Hall? 7 A I am sorry. I don't understand what you 8 are asking there. 9 Q The first or -- the majority of the tape 10 that was originally given to you on August 25th. 11 A Mm-hmm. 12 Q That has very limited underground storage 13 tank pulling; is that correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q It's mostly demolition of the building? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Did you want me to let him know that what 19 that is? 20 Q If you would like, yes. 21 A The excavator had three attachments to 22 it. Mr. Wolin was rather proud of this piece of 23 equipment. This is the claw, which you saw doing the 24 demolition of the building. This particular attachment 25 pounds holes into the concrete and busts it up. 54 1 Q You say four people. That would be Mark 2 Sherrill. 3 Could you go through the list, please. 4 A That would be Robert Roland Womack, 5 William A. Wolin or Billy Junior, Bill Senior. And now 6 Mark Sherrill has arrived. This truck is being driven by 7 Mark Sherrill. That is him there. 8 Q Did you investigate where the trucks went, 9 Mr. Hall? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did your investigation lead you to any 12 interesting facts? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Did the trucks go somewhere in the morning 15 and different places in the afternoon? 16 A Yes, they did. 17 Q The trucks in the morning -- where did 18 they go? 19 A They went to Amador County landfill on 20 Buena Vista Road in Ione. 21 Q Have you seen receipts for that? 22 A Yes, I have. 23 Q Have you seen a check for that? 24 A Yes, I have. 25 Q That check was drawn on account of? 55 1 A KRL partnership. 2 Q Who is KRL partnership, to your knowledge, 3 at this time? 4 A KRL partnership -- we passed it. We have 5 a new person coming in the video here. This is son Luke 6 Womack, Robert Roland Womack's son. He arrived later in 7 the day. 8 Q On Saturday, the 2nd? 9 A On Saturday, May 2nd. 10 KRL partnership. To my understanding, the 11 initials KRL represent the different children, Kimberly, 12 Roland -- and we are not sure totally which one first, 13 Luke or Larry. But it was only KRL. 14 Through statements of Luke Womack, he 15 thinks at this time the only one on the partnership is 16 Roland, himself, Roland Womack, the oldest son; that 17 Kimberly, Luke and Larry are no longer on that 18 partnership. 19 Q In the past, though -- 20 A In the past, though, it was -- 21 Q Luke has told you that he was on the 22 partnership? 23 A He was in the past, yes. 24 Q But at this time, only whom? 25 A Only Roland at this time. 56 1 Q And what's Roland's wife's name? 2 A Her name is Nadine Womack. 3 Q She also works -- 4 A She works the front counter at the 5 dentist's office. 6 Q You participated in a search warrant on 7 October 30th, correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Just so everybody can recognize, this 10 gentleman right here is Bill Wolin Senior in the brown 11 coat and Levis. 12 Q That search warrant you seized several 13 documents, correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q At this time, you haven't been able to 16 fully review those documents; is that correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Those documents included documents on a 19 partnership; is that correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q What partnership? 22 A The KRL partnership. 23 Q What types of things did you seize? 24 A We seized check registers. We seized 25 titles -- for close-up, that is Robert Roland Womack. 57 1 See if I can get it to back up a little right there. 2 Whoops. Tricky buttons. 3 That was Luke on the right here. That's 4 Luke. This is Robert Roland Womack. This is William A. 5 Wolin or Billy Junior. 6 Q Again, that's the first video that was 7 handed to you by Robert Womack? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q On the longer video you are going show 10 next, that scene is longer, there are no people in it; is 11 that your understanding? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So the records you seized in the search 14 warrant you haven't been all the way through, correct? 15 A Not completely. 16 Q You don't understand exactly how the 17 partnership works? 18 A No, I don't. 19 Q There is a computer that was seized, 20 correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q You haven't been able to break the code on 23 that yet? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q That has some information on KRL? 58 1 A Yes. 2 Q At least, it has an icon? 3 A It has icon that states KRL. 4 Q You are attempting to find someone who is 5 familiar with breaking codes; is that correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q When you say you seized the records for 8 KRL, and that the people that currently own KRL is Roland 9 Womack and maybe Nadine, correct? 10 A Correct. 11 Q Where are all these records kept? 12 A They are kept in the Ridge Road home that 13 Robert Roland Womack lives in, in his business office. 14 He has a business office attached to the west -- 15 northwest corner of the home upstairs. 16 Q Okay. That red truck just turned the 17 corner? 18 A Yes. That red truck was operated by Nick 19 Hernandez. You will probably see him momentarily. 20 Although this begins and starts, begins and starts, we 21 never get a true continuous video out of this. 22 That right there. That is Nick 23 Hernandez. He is the son of local restaurant owner in 24 the area, Martell, Antonio's. This is the -- their 25 eldest son. And he works for Mark Sherrill, drives truck 59 1 occasionally for him. 2 Q During your investigation, did you make a 3 determination on who was actually the contractor on this 4 job? 5 A The contractor actually was Bob Womack, 6 Robert Roland Womack. 7 Q The contractor was not Wolin and Sons? 8 A No. They denied being the contractor on 9 the job. Robert sort of placed their name on documents. 10 Q What types of documents? 11 A On applications for the demolition permit 12 and also on, I believe it was the -- after the fact tank 13 pulling permit. 14 Q In fact, does Robert Womack even own this 15 property? 16 A No, he does not. 17 Q Who owns it? 18 A David Mason and Miriam Mason actually own 19 the property. 20 Q Did Robert Womack take a permit out on 21 this property for demolition? 22 A Yes, he did. 23 Q Whose name did Robert Womack put on that 24 permit? 25 A Roland Womack. 60 1 Q So Robert took a permit out in Roland's 2 name to knock down this building, correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q They did not own the building? 5 A They did not own the building. 6 We are getting near the end here. The 7 hoist, that's what used to lift cars out, is loaded on 8 this trailer. Pretty soon we are going to get to the 9 very short scratching around the tank area. 10 Q If you could pause for a moment, please. 11 A Sure. 12 Q Mr. Hall, this has been marked Grand Jury 13 Exhibit No. 5. 14 Do you recognize this exhibit? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And this is a four-page blow up of what? 17 A That is a personal check. And that's 18 written to an account number, which we believe is Robert 19 Roland's Womack's personal account. And that is the -- 20 that is a $500 check written to himself for tank reward. 21 Q And was this seized at whose house? 22 A Robert Roland Womack's house. 23 Q And what's the business? 24 A KRL partnership. 25 Q And you seized this on October 30th? 61 1 A That's correct. 2 Q In the bottom left-hand corner, it says? 3 A That says -- 4 Q If you can read it. 5 A That says: "Robert for tank reward?" 6 Q For $500? 7 A For $500. 8 Q And this account -- your preliminary 9 information, is this an account pay to the order? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And your preliminary information is that 12 this might be an account in whose name? 13 A In Robert Roland Womack's name. 14 Q And the date on the check? 15 A That is September 7th, 1998. 16 Q I know we will get to it in the future in 17 your testimony, but about, there was a meeting on 18 September 2nd, correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And that was with various members of the 21 District Attorney's Office, including myself, correct? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q And at that time, who was present? 24 A Robert Roland Womack was present. Roland 25 Womack was present. Dave Mason III, his son David Mason, 62 1 and Bill Wolin Senior, William A. Wolin, Billy Junior. 2 There was George Ryan and David Irey. There was myself, 3 one other investigator named Lance Hayden. 4 Q And for briefly, a couple minutes at the 5 beginning? 6 A A brief couple of minutes, oh, Mark 7 Sherrill was also there. And for a brief few minutes 8 Connie Sherrill, his wife, came in. And also an employee 9 of GRD, I believe, the testers. 10 Q The purpose of the meeting was compliance 11 with the law? 12 A Right. The purpose of the meeting was to 13 meet with them to go over this and try to arrange some 14 sort of compromise with them over this violation. 15 Q One of the biggest issues at the meeting 16 was the location of the tank; is that correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And this was September 2nd? 19 A That's correct. September 2nd. 20 Q So the tank was missing May, June, July 21 and August? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q So the tank had been missing four months 24 to the day, correct? 25 A That's correct. 63 1 Q And for four months, your investigation 2 had turned up what regarding the tank? 3 A Basically, we hadn't located the tank. I 4 had actually driven around Amador County to all sorts of 5 properties. I had actually flown in the air to view 6 properties owned by several of these people, made 7 numerous inquiries of local people. And we hadn't turned 8 the tank up. 9 It was just everybody's story was, We 10 didn't know where it went. It's missing. 11 Q What's their real story, 5:30, 6:00 at 12 night story? 13 A The first story was the tank had gone to 14 Owens Illinois, they thought that's where it had gone. 15 Because supposedly there was a tank out at Owens Illinois 16 that was leaking. And so that's where they at first said 17 that tank had gone. 18 Q And then? 19 A And then a second story. 20 Q Well, then it was determined what about 21 Owens Illinois? 22 A That, in fact, there wasn't a leaking tank 23 at Owens Illinois. What there was out there was a tank 24 whose fill neck was a little lower than it should be so 25 occasionally ground water would come in and they would 64 1 have to siphon it off. They had that repaired and 2 everything was find out there. We have all the documents 3 to back that up. 4 Q One of their sons -- one of Mr. Womack's 5 sons works for? 6 A Yes. Luke Womack works for Owens 7 Illinois, the alleged place the tank was supposed to have 8 gone. 9 Q But you inquired with Owens Illinois 10 yourself? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And your investigation, your strong 13 tentative decision was, the tank? 14 A Had never been there. 15 Q So after Mr. Womack was told that the tank 16 wasn't at Owens Illinois, did you hear a new story? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q What was that story, essentially? 19 A The second story then became that the 20 morning of the demolition, about 6:00 a.m., Robert Womack 21 and a few were there at Mel's on Highway 49 in Jackson 22 having breakfast. And at that time, Robert Roland Womack 23 was supposedly asking anybody that was in the place if 24 they wanted items from the gas station, because he was 25 just going to throw them all away so they could have any 65 1 various piece, part that was there. 2 Supposedly, he asked if anybody wanted a 3 fuel tank. And a gentleman who is unknown to Robert 4 Womack -- 5 Q To this day? 6 A To this day. 7 -- said he would take the tank. And so 8 Robert Womack told him to then show up later on in the 9 afternoon with a truck and trailer and he could have it. 10 Q And we will go into this in much more 11 detail about who you interviewed and what witnesses 12 stated after each of those witnesses testifies. 13 Okay. At that point, Mr. Womack had told 14 you that -- he has told to you this day that it was 15 loaded that night, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q On an unknown truck, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do other people's stories parallel that? 20 A Yes. Everybody basically that was asked 21 that was on that job site basically had the same story. 22 Q All the way through the September 2nd 23 date, correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q Their story was something about -- 66 1 A Well, it was getting late. It was 2 beginning to rain hard. And the truck pulled up. The 3 tank was loaded on it. But nobody really noticed what 4 kind of truck it was, what kind of trailer it was, who 5 was driving it, who drove it away, who chained it up. 6 They don't know nothing. Just instantly appeared to be 7 placed on a truck and it drove off. 8 Q Right as the tank came out of the ground? 9 A Right as the tank came out of the ground. 10 Q We met on September 2nd and reinforced to 11 everybody present it was important to find the tank, 12 correct? 13 A Absolutely. 14 Q We discussed whether or not somebody 15 should offer a he reward for the tank, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And I mentioned the number $1,000? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And Mr. Womack said? Did he think it was 20 a good idea? 21 A Yeah, he thought it was a good idea. 22 Q And did he -- to your knowledge, did he 23 then place an ad? 24 A I was told he did. I never personally saw 25 the paper myself. 67 1 Q Did he also tell you that he posted it 2 around town? 3 A Yes, he did. 4 Q Did you look around town to see if the ad 5 was posted anywhere? 6 A Yes, I did. I looked in ten different 7 business locations, the billboards and normal poster 8 boards for the little flier that he had placed. 9 Q Did you see it anywhere? 10 A Nowhere. 11 Q On Tuesday, I think it's September 8th, 12 this year, was that Admissions Day? Is that the 9th? I 13 apologize. 14 On Tuesday, September 8th, the tank showed 15 up in Lodi, correct? If you don't know, I am not trying 16 to put words in your mouth. Did the tank show up? 17 A The tank showed up in Lodi on -- at least, 18 the day I viewed it on the 10th. But I believe it showed 19 up at the Lodi location on the 8th. 20 Q Okay. And did Mr. Womack make any 21 statements regarding the tank showing up to you? 22 A That the person had called him in response 23 to his reward ad; that he met -- or that person was paid 24 the reward; and that that person then was probably the 25 one that delivered the tank to the Lodi Jim Thorpe Oil 68 1 Company; and that he did not know who it was, did not 2 ask. 3 Q At any time, did he tell you that he made 4 a check out to himself? 5 A No. He didn't tell me that. 6 Q And the check is for $500; not a thousand; 7 is that correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q You have skimmed the ledger for this 10 checking account KRL, correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And are there any other checks for a 13 reward in there? 14 A No. 15 Q That's the only reward check for the tank? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Okay. Back to the video, please. 18 A Okay. Fast forward or regular? 19 They are now scratching along the side 20 where the fuel tank is located with the third attachment, 21 which is a large bucket about five feet across. 22 Q Stop, please. 23 A Sure. 24 Q Could you play at normal speed. 25 A Regular speed? 69 1 Q That transition between across the street 2 video and where it turns into akido, please. 3 A Okay. 4 Q And with sound. 5 A (Witness complies.) 6 The music is coming from the Lincoln 7 Navigator, where the video is being taken from. 8 Q Could you name the people in the video, 9 please, at this stage. 10 A I'm sorry? I couldn't hear you. 11 Q Could you point out who is in the video. 12 A The gentleman in the hole, I realize it's 13 fuzzy. Mark Sherrill in the back. 14 Q In green still? 15 A In green still. 16 Nick Hernandez stepped out of the hole 17 carrying a pipe. This is Luke Womack. This is Robert 18 Womack. 19 Q Again, it states May 1st, but it was May 20 2nd? 21 A Yes. The camera both was off one day and 22 plus approximately three hours in time. 23 Q How many dozen times you have been told it 24 was pouring rain at this stage? 25 A Dozens of time. Every time I talked to 70 1 one of these people, it was pouring down rain. It was 2 dark, pouring down rain. 3 Q The street is dry? 4 A Yeah, the street is dry at this time. 5 Q Stop it, please. 6 That is dated May 28th? 7 A That's dated May 28th. 8 Q This is the tape Mr. Womack gave you? 9 A Yes. 10 Q The referral to the D.A.'s Office was 11 between May 2nd and May 28th; is that correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q And that's the end of the tank removal, 14 the beginning of akido on the first tape you received. 15 Correct? 16 A That is correct. 17 Q Okay. Mr. Hall, without rewinding it, 18 could you go ahead and fast forward through -- before we 19 get to the videotape, why don't we go ahead and show the 20 video of Grand Jury Exhibit No. 2. 21 This tape has been marked Grand Jury 22 Exhibit No. 2. Do you recognize it? 23 A Yes, I do. 24 Q And that's an original videotape? 25 A Yes, this is the original videotape. 71 1 Q Taken by whom? 2 A By myself. 3 Q On what date? 4 A On October 30th, 1998. 5 Q At what location? 6 A At xxxxx Ridge Road. This is Robert 7 Womack's home. 8 Q During a search warrant? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q And it was a search warrant signed by 11 Superior Court Judge in this county? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q Judge Harlan? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And that warrant has been sealed? 16 A Yes, it has. 17 Q Under order of Judge Harlan? 18 A That is correct. 19 Q And the purpose of taking the videotape 20 was twofold, correct? 21 A Yes, it is. 22 Q And one of the -- what are the reasons, 23 basically? 24 A The original reason for a video such as 25 this is to show the entrance of the home, the serving of 72 1 the search warrant, to verify that, you know, what type 2 of response you get when you arrive at the home. You 3 never know on a search warrant who is home, normally. 4 And so the video is to document the actual entry to the 5 home. 6 The second purpose is to -- to show the 7 condition of the home prior to the search and the service 8 of the search warrant. 9 Q And in this case, you both took a video, 10 but you also walked someone through the house; is that 11 correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Who did you walk through the house? 14 A I made a phone call to Roland at his 15 office, because Robert and June were on their way to Las 16 Vegas apparently. 17 Q When you got to the site that day, you 18 were there with several other peace officers, correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And we will go into that later. And when 21 you knocked on their front door, was someone in the home? 22 A Yes. There was a carpet cleaner in the 23 home cleaning the carpets of the residence. 24 Q When I say when you knocked on the door, 25 you weren't the actual individual who knocked on the 73 1 door, correct? 2 A No. I was standing behind probably four 3 other officers who were going to the front door. 4 Q The carpet cleaner let you in? 5 A Yes. 6 Q You immediately or early on called Roland 7 Womack? 8 A Yeah. Minutes after I contacted the 9 carpet cleaner and he told me that he had obtained the 10 keys and permission to be there from Roland. So I called 11 Roland Womack to come to the home. 12 Q And he was there off and on the entire 13 time you were at the home? 14 A Yes. 15 Q But he walked around initially with you, 16 correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And he showed you where a videotape was, 19 correct? 20 A That is correct. 21 Q And that videotape will be something we 22 are about to see, which is a longer version of the -- 23 A That's correct. 24 Q A longer version of the tape we just saw? 25 A Yes. It's the actual 8 millimeter tape 74 1 videoed by June Womack. 2 Q And when Roland Womack walked around the 3 house, you said he had some notes in his hands, correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And notes that you thought were locations 6 for items? 7 A Yes. They -- when I had contacted him by 8 phone, I had asked him if he was in contact with Robert 9 to offer him the chance to tell us exactly where the 10 items we were looking for were at. And this note that 11 Roland had some penned down locations of where certain 12 items were. 13 Q And most of the stuff you were looking for 14 were KRL records, correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Roland, to your knowledge owns KRL, 17 correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Roland needed notes to find KRL paperwork; 20 is that your understanding? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q In whose house? 23 A In Robert Womack's home. 24 Q Okay. You can go ahead and put the video 25 in, please. 75 1 I think we need to play this at straight 2 time, if that's okay. 3 A Yeah. It's not extremely long, but... 4 Little warning at first. When it starts, the camera is a 5 little up and down, because there is a lot of people in 6 front of me. I am trying to climb steps, so... 7 Do you want audio on for this also? 8 Q Yes, please. One of the reasons that you 9 take this -- 10 A Yeah. 11 This is the correct day and time. 12 Q In this is your narrative? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So you originally spoke with Nadine 15 Womack? 16 A She answered the phone at the office. I 17 asked her to have Roland respond. 18 Q That's pretty much -- I'm sorry. At this 19 point, you are going over while you are taking the 20 videotape and it's basically to make sure that you leave 21 the residence in the same manner in which you arrived, 22 correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And that's the purpose of most of the 25 videotape, is that ingress and egress? 76 1 A That's correct. It's just to -- in case 2 there was ever a question or a claim that we had 3 ransacked the home, left it in a haphazard way. This is 4 to show you how it was when we showed up. Photographs 5 were taken later at the completion to show how we left 6 it. 7 Q Before you left that day, you walked the 8 entire house with Roland Womack? 9 A Yes, I did. At the end of the search 10 warrant, I had Roland go room to room, every portion of 11 the room, to show him exactly where I collected evidence, 12 where we had searched, where we had not searched and to 13 show him how we left the home. 14 Q You left a copy of items seized with him? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Who owns those vehicles, if you know, Mr. 17 Hall? 18 A Those vehicles are registered to KRL. 19 Q All of them? 20 A All of them. So the true owner at this 21 point could be Roland. It could be Bob. We do have a 22 signed pink slip on one of them where the signature is 23 Robert Womack. That would be for this red Roadster. 24 The reason we are so careful on the 25 vehicles, Robert Womack loves his cars. We just wanted 77 1 to avoid any trouble later with that. 2 Q KRL signed the agreement to purchase 505 3 Sutter Street; is that correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q That was signed by Roland Womack? 6 A Roland Womack, Nadine Womack. 7 Q Roland and Nadine signed the supplemental 8 addendum to the agreement, as far as loaning the money to 9 David Mason, correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 This was the only forceful opening. We 12 were able to remove the door hinge pins and not kick 13 anything in. This is Robert Womack's office, located 14 above the garage. 15 Q These individuals are whom? 16 A Investigator Jim Walshaw with D.A.'s 17 Office. And this is CHP Officer Russ Moore. 18 Q Russ Moore is Haz Mat specialist? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Could you pause it, please. This is 21 extremely important. I am going to put it on the 22 record. And I know that it's the right thing to do. 23 They are about to show where he keeps his 24 key to his safe. I will let his attorney know that the 25 grand jurors saw this location. But just letting you 78 1 know, of course, we don't want anybody to know where this 2 key to this safe with this type of stuff in it is. 3 Anyway, I wanted to put that on the record. Thanks. 4 That fax machine is KRL's? 5 A Yes, it is. 6 Q In fact, that's the number on the face of 7 the check, correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q 296-1510? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And that's actually not a business; that's 12 a fax number at this time? 13 A That is right. 14 This is located also above the garage. 15 Q Who pays the house payments on this? 16 A KRL makes the house payments. 17 Q Out of this same account that this check 18 has been marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 5? 19 A That's correct. 20 After the initial entry, only two of us 21 went into this main portion of the house. 22 Q Who would that have been? 23 A Russ Moore and myself. 24 Q And there weren't people all over the 25 house looking in every single drawer? 79 1 A No, absolutely not. 2 Q You and Russ Moore were looking for 3 specific items, correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Did you find some of them in some of these 6 rooms? 7 A Yes. 8 Q This has been labeled Grand Jury Exhibit 9 No. 4. 10 Was this found in one of those rooms? 11 A Yes, it was. In fact, you are looking at 12 the dresser where it was found now. 13 Q And what is that tape of? 14 A This is a micro cassette tape. And this 15 was a recording made by Robert Womack. He was concealing 16 a tape recorder within his pocket and it recorded his 17 conversation with the City of Jackson regarding the 18 permit. And this was found in the upper left -- 19 Q So he was surreptitiously recording? 20 A That's correct. He was illegally taping a 21 city official. 22 Q I have to strike that. I have to play the 23 Judge. Although Mr. Hall probably has a strong opinion 24 on the legality of whether or not the surreptitious 25 taping of a conversation was illegal, he did say it was 80 1 illegal. 2 To your knowledge, are people supposed to 3 surreptitiously tape one another? 4 A They are not supposed to. 5 Q And your pretty positive of that? 6 A That's right. I have read the code 7 section that says they are not to do that. 8 Q Okay. You found this in Mr. Womack's 9 bedroom? 10 A Yes. It was still contained within a 11 micro cassette recorder, itself. 12 Q And Mr. White has been subpoenaed? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And Ms. Martin also? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Their voices are on this tape? 17 A Yes, they are. 18 This is the bedroom where another item 19 was located, in this ... and it was actually pointed out 20 to me by Roland Womack, the son. 21 Q He pointed out where the video camera was? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q And was the videotape with it? 24 A Yes. It was located underneath the camera 25 bag. 81 1 Q Been marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 3? 2 A Yes. 3 That is Roland Womack, the son. He 4 arrived on scene. He is looking for the key to the safe, 5 which is in the right corner of the office there under 6 that lower cupboard. What I thought was a closet is 7 actually a three compartment area. The safe is in the 8 lower section. 9 Q This is KRL's office or Bob and KRL's? 10 A It's Robert Womack's office. And that's 11 where all the KRL documents are located that I found. 12 Q At that point, Roland appeared to not know 13 where the key was; is that correct? 14 A That's correct. At one point, he thought 15 he might have to go home to get a key to it. He said, My 16 dad always keeps the keys in one of these model cars. 17 And he kind of looked around in each one. Eventually 18 found it. 19 This search warrant is really very 20 specific. So we didn't ransack eve